English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

4:00 PM

> Mr. Starbuck, until this be done, my boy’s face is to me as the palm of my hand, an unfeatured blank.

facepalms

user174558

I want to say that I do not like using the word guys. It sounds very silly.

user174558

Instead of saying hello guys, I just say hello.

user174558

I also think that we should do away with using men and women. We should call everyone boys and girls.

tchrist

Please stop using men and women.

user174558

And gentlemen and ladies sound even more silly than men and women.

user174558

4:05 PM

At least they call it the old boy association instead of the old man association.

question_asker

Oldboy Association

tchrist

Oldbuck.

user174558

Maybe Barrie left the site because too many people were telling him to beef up his answers, lol.

user174558

He got sick of the X, Y and Z that I got sick of.

user174558

People who interpret "rules" too rigidly and then lord it over every member of the site.

crl

4:11 PM

@question_asker ah ok

user174558

I ask X, Y and Z to pick up any grammar book and see if every sentence is "substantiated" with an authoritative source.

user174558

@crl Are you still on meds?

crl

no

user174558

Good, good.

Mitch

@WillHunting yes that works best

crl

4:14 PM

@tchrist there's "ensemble" (wouldn't have fit there) or "les deux"

user174558

@Mitch Usually, I say nothing.

crl

well "ensemble" is like 'together', bit different to 'both'

Mitch

Usually I allow people to say to me 'your majesty'

user174558

Ensemble means set in math, right?

Mitch

And a group in classical music

crl

4:15 PM

yes, l'ensemble des entiers naturels

Mitch

And corps is field

user174558

And the French often call a division ring a field, and a field a commutative field.

But ring is anneau

group is groupe

Instead of agneau

4:16 PM

:))

user174558

And the French often call nonnegative positive, and nonpositive negative.

Mitch

@WillHunting that's messed up

user174558

And they call positive strictly positive, and negative strictly negative.

crl

l'ensemble des réels strictement positifs

Mitch

Oh that's worse

Not for logic but for translating

crl

4:18 PM

@WillHunting never saw that

user174558

Well, what to do, the best mathematicians are French and German.

crl

ah I see, well I remember strict or not was mentioned, R+ (positive real numbers) R+* (stricly positive)

Mitch

Are they still?

The Hungarians are no slouches

Except at the dinner table

Their manners are the worst

user174558

Because they are too Hungary.

Mitch

They mistake the dessert knife with the salad knife

user174558

4:20 PM

@crl Well, different authors will have their own conventions.

user174558

I prefer getting just desserts to just deserts.

question_asker

gets all cosplayed up for the john steinbeck convention

user174558

What convention is it?

user174558

Oh.

question_asker

I can see the disappointment in that "Oh."

user174558

4:22 PM

I thought I would have gotten a few starred messages by now.

2

Mitch

Say something outrageous

user174558

I said I have no genitals, above.

Mitch

That's pretty ordinary

Here let me help

'Something outrageous'

question_asker

smh

user174558

@mitch In the end, I decided to buy Enderton's books on logic and set theory.

question_asker

4:25 PM

I bought a book on set theory about a month ago. I got about three pages in before I gave up.

Mitch

I think those are good

user174558

@question_asker Are you a math student?

Mitch

Very readable

user174558

I don't go for easy books or hard books, just good books, whatever good means.

question_asker

no. I think I was technically a CS student when I dropped out back in 2001

user174558

4:27 PM

Ah OK. I did not drop out of math, but I am officially now a lunatic.

question_asker

oh?

Mitch

"Precolumbian effective dream symbology", very readable.

user174558

I am mentally ill and unemployed.

user174558

@question_asker I recommend Enderton's Elements Of Set Theory, only 55 USD on Amazon.

Mitch

That's why I don't get math texts. So exorbitant

user174558

4:28 PM

55 USD is cheap for a math book.

Anonymous

@question_asker I wouldn't want to be called a guy, but I don't think anyone is calling anyone a guy when they say "Hey, guys!". Which, by the way, is pretty common in all-female groups.

Anonymous

@Færd There are about a billion ways to romanize Japanese.

crl

Hi guyrls (non sexist version)

user174558

@snailboat Do you say gals?

Anonymous

@WillHunting Nope.

user174558

4:29 PM

@snailboat I am sure it is less than a million.

Mitch

Gals seems really weird

Anonymous

@WillHunting This is a little something I came up with in my spare time I like to call 'hyperbole'.

Mitch

'Hey' works

question_asker

@snailboat I mean, "guys" is right there in the phrase - "guys" are who is being addressed. But again, this is not a thing I care enough to defend or attack strongly

user174558

@snailboat This is exactly what I answered when someone said something like that to me.

question_asker

4:31 PM

superbole, usually in february

crl

strong hyperboles are called exponentials?

Anonymous

@question_asker I don't think guys is made up of a guy + a guy + a guy + …, so I don't think that follows.

user174558

I want to post a question but before that I want to do a poll...

tchrist

@crl I do know to use les deux in French; it’s just that that isn’t something that stands apart from les trois où les quatre. Compare FR les deux parents and CA tots dos parents (+other langues d’oc?) on the one hand with all of EN both parents, NL beide ouders, DE beide Eltern, SW båda föräldrarna, DA begge forældre, IS báðir foreldrar, LA ambo parentes, ES ambos padres, PT ambos os pais, IT entrambi i genitori, RO ambii părinți on the other hand.

user174558

Do you say "Hello, men" or "Hello, women"?

Anonymous

4:32 PM

Nope!

tchrist

I’ll let @Cerberus explain to us why Latin’s nominative plural for both is in such a curious form.

user174558

Next question. Do you say "Hello, boys" and "Hello, girls"?

tchrist

Neither.

question_asker

@snailboat I think it is in fact made up of those pieces but again, I'm not terribly interested in pursuing this since I generally tend to use "guys" myself

crl

@tchrist yes, totally, there's no correspondence in French

question_asker

4:34 PM

I'd say "hello, boys" if I was maybe saying it in a campy way

but otherwise, neither

crl

we still say ambidextre, ambivalent (from latin, indeed)

user174558

I mean to a group of young boys and girls.

Anonymous

@question_asker Yeah, we shouldn't bother continuing this discussion.

tchrist

It’s curious that the Gallic tongues alone seem to have lost any both/ambos type word that the other Romance tongues and the Germanic ones seem to have all of them retained.

question_asker

@snailboat Then we are in agreement. No more shall we continue this discussion

tchrist

4:35 PM

pace Catalan. :)

Anonymous

@Færd And there's really no standard for transliteration. Most romanization schemes for Japanese are transcription schemes rather than transliteration. Transliteration is harder due to the recent phonemicizations due to the influence of loanwords, which created new patterns of kana use.

user174558

Hmm, I think I will post my question now.

tchrist

But it's pretty ocky anyway.

Anonymous

You can use the so-called "word processor" romanization (romanizing things as you'd type them on a computer) to transliterate all of them, but that's just yucky.

MετάEd

@tchrist Is that the base eight translation of decky? And are those translations of binky?

crl

4:36 PM

@tchrist ocky? :)

question_asker

(for whoever was recommending set theory stuff - the book I gave up on was called "A Theory of Sets" by some german guy so I dunno how relatively accessible that one is to any others you might recommend)

Anonymous

Plus, it varies from computer to computer (or input method to input method).

crl

"ok" maybe he meant :)

Mitch

Call me maybe?

question_asker

my favorite radiohead/jepsen mashup

oh you changed it

user174558

4:38 PM

0

Q: Using "Hello, boys/girls/men/women"

It appears to me that we say Hello, boys and Hello, girls to a group of boys and girls respectively, but do not say Hello, men and Hello, women to a group of men and women respectively. Is this the case in your particular variety of English? If so, is there a term or reas...

user174558

Dear boys and girls, please answer my question!

Anonymous

And there's no standard for transcription, either: Tokyo, Tōkyō, Tookyoo, Tohkyoh, toʀkyoʀ, toʜkyoʜ, toːkʲjoː, etc. Some people mix transcription and transliteration and write things like "Toukyou" and yet write "konnichiwa".

Anonymous

Really, people just do whatever they feel like, and there's very little consistency at all.

user174558

I think @snailboat is a professional linguist in disguise.

tchrist

@crl Ocky languages contrasting with oily ones. :)

Anonymous

4:40 PM

I'm just a snailboat.

crl

ah langue d'oc

MετάEd

@Lawrence Happy Mayday.

question_asker

what's up, langued'oc

user174558

@snailboat I'm just a lunatic.

MετάEd

@snailboat Toukyou? As in "Time to toukyou into bed?"

question_asker

4:41 PM

yes happy may day to all

user174558

May Day is long over.

tchrist

@WillHunting You have lime-green wings and you suck people's blood?

Anonymous

@MετάEd Hehe :-) It reflects the Japanese kana spelling とうきょう rather than the pronunciation.

MετάEd

@tchrist I knew a little OIL once.

user174558

@tchrist That's a zombie.

tchrist

4:43 PM

@WillHunting Only today do the snows of yestermay melt in the sun.

crl

Some say this bay lays gay rays on may days

Anonymous

The う character there represents 'u' in spelling, but it actually indicates the second half of a long [oː] sound in modern pronunciation. It used to represent a /u/ sound historically. Tōkyō [toːkʲjoː] was something like Toukyau [toɯkʲjɑɯ].

tchrist

It snowed again on May Day here. No May baskets were hung on doorknobs.

Anonymous

When they reformed kana spelling in the last century to match the modern language, they kept just a few things spelled differently from their pronunciations for whatever reason.

Anonymous

Otherwise it'd be とおきょお.

user174558

4:48 PM

How do you type Japanese so fast?

Anonymous

I just use a normal Japanese input method.

user174558

I never had to type Chinese, so I don't know how to.

Anonymous

@WillHunting If you don't want to install an input method on your computer (or enable whatever Chinese input method is probably built-in to the OS you're using), go to Google Translate.

Anonymous

Google Translate is famous for being a really bad machine translation tool, but it's also got built-in input methods for a lot of languages, and they can be pretty neat.

Anonymous

If you set the box on the left on Google Translate to 中国語, then you should see a little button labeled 拼, as in 拼音.

Anonymous

4:55 PM

There's a little drop-down next to it, so click that and pick whichever you're most comfortable with.

Anonymous

The drop-down is also how you pick traditional vs simplified.

tchrist

@snailboat *infamous :)

Anonymous

Google Translate is my favorite really bad machine translation!

Anonymous

I use it for all my really bad machine translation needs.

tchrist

I used it for my both/ambos chat-post above. I did a tiny bit of looking into languages it didn't cover, but didn't come up with anything.

Anonymous

4:59 PM

I don't think I saw that chat-post. Can you link to it?

tchrist

26 mins ago, by tchrist

@crl I do know to use les deux in French; it’s just that that isn’t something that stands apart from les trois où les quatre. Compare FR les deux parents and CA tots dos parents (+other langues d’oc?) on the one hand with all of EN both parents, NL beide ouders, DE beide Eltern, SW båda föräldrarna, DA begge forældre, IS báðir foreldrar, LA ambo parentes, ES ambos padres, PT ambos os pais, IT entrambi i genitori, RO ambii părinți on the other hand.

Anonymous

Oh, hey, I was here then! Sometimes I wonder how I manage to miss messages like that while I'm actually chatting :-)

tchrist

One’s forelders is interesting.

question_asker

please. one's forelders ARE interesting.

Anonymous

Use–mention distinction

The use–mention distinction is a foundational concept of analytic philosophy, according to which it is necessary to make a distinction between using a word (or phrase) and mentioning it, and many philosophical works have been "vitiated by a failure to distinguish use and mention". The distinction is disputed by non-analytic philosophers. The distinction between use and mention can be illustrated for the word cheese: Use: cheese is derived from milk. Mention: "cheese" is derived from the Old English word "cyse". The first sentence is a statement about the substance called "cheese"; it uses the word...

question_asker

5:07 PM

smmfgdh

user174558

"Snailboat" is derived from "snail" and "boat".

tchrist

Once forelders twice foroaken thrice forlorn.

user174558

Snailboat is derived from snail and boat.

user174558

LOL

tchrist

@WillHunting That would be incorrect. It’s derived from ablations.

question_asker

5:09 PM

Twice for oaken, thrice for elmen

user174558

I find it silly that users with certain rep are asked to "review" other users' answers.

user174558

It's as if users with certain rep are professors or something.

MετάEd

I'm sorry I looked up snailboat just now.

question_asker

...

user174558

@MετάEd I have not seen her before. She is very secretive.

MετάEd

5:16 PM

@WillHunting You might be thinking of the great glass sea snail.

user174558

I like to use the word silly. It allows me to vent my frustrations without being flagged.

user174558

I have called many things silly on the main sites as well.

Mitch

That's silly

@WillHunting rep is at least measured

Anonymous

2 days ago, by crl

@snailboat what's a snail-boat?

Anonymous

2 days ago, by snailboat

@crl http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/10/pictures/111019-about-sea-snail-‌mucus-bubble-rafts/

Mitch

5:20 PM

It's not perfect.

user174558

@Mitch But "review"? Sounds too high and mighty.

Mitch

It says more that you're active in the site than direct quality

@WillHunting but that's what it is.

More open about it than Wikipedia where it's simply 'editor'

user174558

Imagine a silly user with high rep reviewing a professor's answer.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting Imagined.

now what?

what would you call the action that the silly user did if not "review"?

Mitch

"A female violet snail, Janthina exigua, hangs from a float of homemade mucus."

user174558

5:23 PM

If I run the site, I would do away altogether with reviews. No reviews. QED.

Mitch

Yuck

Anonymous

@Mitch But it's pretty!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch homemade mucus is way better than store-bought.

question_asker

sells for way more too

Mitch

@WillHunting it's not perfect. More likely someone more knowledgable will review someone less.

MετάEd

5:23 PM

@snailboat I like that answer.

Mitch

@snailboat a pretty snot bubble

question_asker

people picketing around snailboat's homemade mucus THIS IS WHAT GENTRIFICATION LOOKS LIKE

MετάEd

@WillHunting It's self-correcting.

Færd

@snailboat Merci. I thought maybe they do it more systematically, because they semi-officially use it in their animes and movies and stuff.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting The problem is that we need reviews. There are lots of random new users who post stuff that's full of problems.

user174558

5:27 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 OK, but don't users look at the posts anyway, without having the review queue?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting they can't find everything. It's far more efficient to make a workflow.

user174558

There was once a user on Math SE who was fed up with the SE system. He wanted to make his own site but never got down to it.

Mitch

It's a lot of work

Lots of mini decisions to make

user174558

I imagine a good programmer can do it in a month. But you need to find committed users.

Anonymous

@Færd Well, there are a bunch of schemes. Students in Japan have to learn Hepburn and Kunrei when they're little.

Mitch

5:29 PM

??? Hepburn?

question_asker

a type of romanization

Anonymous

After James Curtis Hepburn.

Mitch

Katherine?

user174558

My friend says Audrey Hepburn is pretty but I disagree.

Anonymous

hebon-shiki rōmaji in Japanese.

Mitch

5:30 PM

Oh

@WillHunting she's tiny. A very thin neck

Anonymous

@WillHunting That's a fun example for Japanese loanword phonology! See, Audrey Hepburn's family name became hepubān, while James Curtis Hepburn ended up with hebon.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting You'd be surprised how many programmers working for how many months it'd take to build a site like stackexchange.

user174558

I thought my question would have gotten 9000 answers by now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But you shouldn't be surprised, given that the development history of this network was pretty publicly discussed and documented.

Anonymous

@Færd But those schemes are both best considered transcription rather than transliteration.

Færd

5:33 PM

I see.

user174558

Schemes, sheaves, germs, stalks are all mathematical terms in extremely advanced math.

Anonymous

I did not know that!

Kit Z. Fox

I'm concerned I might be harassing my co-worker. scrunchy face

user174558

She must be very pretty.

Kit Z. Fox

No, I'm talking about a guy. That's why it's hard to tell. Do guys get worried about unwanted attention?

Færd

5:36 PM

Depends.

user174558

I love attention from women. All kinds of women.

Kit Z. Fox

On what?

Færd

Many things. Unwanted attention is a very broad term.

user174558

I think men and women are not much different. There are all kinds of them.

Kit Z. Fox

I worry sometimes that I'm being too friendly.

user174558

5:37 PM

So whether you are a man or woman, when you deal with a man or woman, just use your common sense.

user174558

Of course, it is natural to ask for opinions, but they are just opinions.

user174558

Although I am not gay, I also love attention from men.

Færd

@KitZ.Fox That would worry me, if I'm not considering becoming friends with someone.

user174558

In fact, I have gotten more attention from men than women, ROFLMAO.

Færd

I used to have both. :)

Mitch

5:40 PM

@KitZ.Fox like they're not getting the message 'do it now'?

Færd

Although not in a very public way.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch I don't follow...

I've known him for a couple of years, so I joke around with him in a friendly way. Is there a good way to know if I've crossed the line if he doesn't actually say so?

user174558

@KitZ.Fox You can say exactly what you just typed.

Darren Taylor

Hi guys, I'm quickly skim reading my brothers University Paper and would be ever grateful if someone can confirm the correct use of "arisen" in this short excerpt or if it should be arose, would anyone help me? I'll send you virtual Cherry Bakewells!

Kit Z. Fox

@DarrenTaylor Sure.

user174558

5:43 PM

@DarrenTaylor Arose is past simple and arisen is past perfect. But shoot.

Darren Taylor

Thanks guys, it's as follows:

"I was invited to a small town named Freuchie, and spent a
late evening with a man named Ollie, an electronic musician.
He let me observe him working in his studio for a few hours
as we discussed his relationship with sound and the tools in
which he uses to compose with. Many interesting insights
and observations arisen throughout the time spent with him. "

user174558

@DarrenTaylor arose

Kit Z. Fox

Yes, arose.

Darren Taylor

Thank you so much guys

Much appreciated

Kit Z. Fox

Completed past action.

Mitch

5:44 PM

@KitZ.Fox oh. I thought it was a situation of thinking you're too nice when trying to get someone else to do something.

user174558

No problem, that would be 1 million dollars.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch Oh. haha. Well, there is some truth to that.

Darren Taylor

Aww.. if I had 1 million dollars, I'd pay you to proof read it for me! :D

Færd

@DarrenTaylor Arose. (Send me those Cherry Bakewells)

user174558

Here I see 1 millon dollar notes once a year, when we burn hell notes for the dead, ROFLMAO.

Mitch

5:46 PM

@DarrenTaylor also 'with which' instead of 'in which ... with'

Darren Taylor

Bonus Cherry Bakewells!

Thanks @Mitch

Mitch

@DarrenTaylor or better, drop 'in'

Færd

@Mitch Sometimes that just borders on abuse, I'm afraid.

user174558

Borders closed long ago.

Færd

And sometimes it feels nice to have a cheerful boss. It depends on their sincerity and other things.

user174558

5:52 PM

Every time a woman touches me, I feel an electric shock.

question_asker

prrrobably see a doctor about that

Færd

Used to feel like that in my teens.

Well, not for every woman though.

Mitch

Take off your wool socks

Færd

Wear thick plastic sole shoes.

user174558

I think I have a condition called permanent puberty, lol.

Mitch

5:54 PM

Dogs supposedly don't like to be hugged

Kit Z. Fox

Maybe you just haven't had enough non-sexual physical intimacy.

Mitch

They tolerate it

They're so forgiving

user174558

Maybe I am just very horny.

Mitch

If you feed them

Færd

Maybe you just haven't had enough sexual physical intimacy.

But what do I know.

user174558

5:56 PM

Interesting there is a bird and a fox in here.

Mitch

Maybe it's supposed to happen always.

Færd

And a broken TV screen.

Mitch

That's not broken

user174558

@Færd You are right. I had none.

Mitch

Your eye is broken

Færd

5:57 PM

@Mitch Yay! So I my guess was half right!

user174558

2 AM here.

Mitch

Flag is not moving. Wind is not moving. Mind is moving

user174558

Nonsense. All are moving, because flag is mind.

Mitch

Ahhh

Færd

I'm not going to lecture you on what to do about that. But I hope things work out well for you in the end. :)

Mitch

5:58 PM

nirvana reached

Færd

Or before the end.

question_asker

soundgarden just kind of sat there

Mitch

the food isn't as good

returning from nirvana

Wow. Nirvana is really uptight. Really hung up on reaching enlightenment.

user174558

One day, when I am really serious about Buddhism, I will read the 4 Nikayas published by Wisdom.

Mitch

The knockoffs by Dover are cheaper

user174558

6:02 PM

Right now, they cost a total of 168 USD on Amazon. I encourage anyone with a serious interest to buy it.

question_asker

knockoff koans

Mitch

They're not online? Spirit of openness and all that?

user174558

I think they might be, but books are always better.

Mitch

I like them better

user174558

For those interested, seach for Long/Middle Length/Connected/Numerical Discourses of the Buddha by Wisdom Publications.

user174558

6:04 PM

Four extremely thick hardcovers.

Mitch

All those words

question_asker

the sound of one hand grasping

user174558

It is the equivalent of the Bible or the Koran.

Mitch

Have you ever seen a cow emptying it's bowels?

user174558

Nope.

user174558

6:07 PM

Am I the cow?

question_asker

I don't know about "emptying" but... yes.

user174558

The Pali canon which is the literature of Theravada Buddhism has 3 Pitakas, and the discourses of the Buddha are 1 of the 3. It consists of 5 Nikayas, the above 4 and 1 more miscellaneous collection.

user174558

The entire canon will take up a whole shelf, just like the OED.

user174558

I am going to take a nap.

question_asker

sounds like a lot of buddhism to me buddy

Mitch

6:25 PM

@WillHunting of course not.

Cow and horse manure don't smell so bad from afar. Chicken and pig manure do.

question_asker

"so bad"

"could be worse. could be the bad-smelling kind of poop"

user174558

6:47 PM

I took a shower, not a nap, in the end.

question_asker

bam! right in the end

user174558

@question_asker Yes, and that is only Theravada. There are still the Mahayana sutras, lol.

PhMgBr

@Mitch Actually, Only Earth is moving, and we remain still. O_o

user174558

@PhMgBr Hello, you must be chemistry boy.

PhMgBr

Hullo

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:53 PM

@PhMgBr If it's moving and we're not, how come we're not getting farther away from it?

PhMgBr

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Does a clown on a unicycle get farther away from it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@PhMgBr yes, if one of them is moving and the other is not.

PhMgBr

Well, except his feet, the clown isn't moving. In a sense

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Similarly a clown on a tiny bicycle, a clown on an undersized car, a clown on an elephant... if only one of them is moving and the other is not moving, one will end up away from the other.

user174558

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You should replace the Lego figure with something Shiny.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…