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3:00 PM
@Borror0 Oh, I totally get your frustration.
I guess there should be some compromise in the length of the answer, because people are lazy ;)
 
The amoeba is a fascinating animal… sometimes, it would gallop across the savanna…
 
lol
@Vitaly Awesome Facebook status quote ;)
 
3:16 PM
@Borror0 The shorter ones may get bumped, but those that are seriously interested in an answer will see it.
 
I find, on these sites, a short, to-the-point answer is usually best. (If you want upvotes)
 
I find that when I am reading answers, I first scan the upvoted ones, then look to others that might be more complete or better laid out, but people were too lazy to read.
 
jinguy's avatar picture almost scared me
because it's so superficially similar to The Preacher's picture
so I was like OH NO until I paid closer attention
 
What does The Preacher's avatar look like?
@Ustice, It's not always lazyness. I check this at work usually, and I don't have time to read multi (5 or more) paragraph answers usually.
 
@jjnguy Like the one you have
 
3:26 PM
@jjnguy It wasn't meant to be an insult. My guess though is that if you saw a long post you would at least skim it before deciding to up/down vote it.
 
@Ustice Of course I wouldn't vote on anything I haven't read.
@Nomd I see what you mean. And I see why you were affraid initially
Was the Preacher serious? Or is he just a troll?
 
@jjnguy About what?
 
@Ustice About all of his posts.
 
He doesn't seem particularly trolly.
 
Except for the fact that none of his posts has a positive score.
 
mfg
3:33 PM
zomg we need a moratorium on 'what is atheism' questions on the front page until everyone agrees on what the purpose of the definition should be. these should all be taking place on the meta for the time being
0
Q: How would we define atheism without using the word "God"?

ThisIstheIdThis is an extension of a previous question that was suggested I move into a different post: What are the abstract properties of a "god" such that atheists can reject it? Edit: By this I mean give the most general definition that you can without being so general that it exceeds the scope of at...

 
Well, he is an opposing view-point. That isn't surprising here.
 
@Ustice Ok, that makes sense.
 
He has generally been polite and respectful.
 
@Ustice Ok, fair enough.
 
mfg
yeah, he just drops flame-y wording into some of his comments
 
3:35 PM
The only thing sort of trolly that I saw from him was his comment about the "godless education system," which he later admitted was poor word-choice.
While I do not share his views, they do provide a decent counterpoint.
 
Wow, I was worried there for a second you guys were talking about me
 
That is always good.
@ThisIstheId no. Well not now...
 
then I realized that you were talking about the preacher and i wiped my brow
 
I'd like to see a few more people like him on here, to be honest, from several faith backgrounds.
 
I try to provide a slightly different viewpoint.
 
3:37 PM
@Ustice yeah and get them to troll each other
and leave us alone.
 
We'll just run them off.
 
To be honest, more of the trolls that i have seen are from "us." :)
Though there is a lot of noise in the questions.
 
The Preacher is an intentional troll
 
mfg
wow, he has totally earned a [sombody hates me] badge
2 -10 answers wow
 
Yeah, clearly not a favorite viewpoint here.
 
3:41 PM
There is a consistent tactic he uses: throw in an unsubstantiated claim, then wait for comments from people, then throw in a (non sequitur) piece of statistics or reference, then wait for people to waste their time refuting it
It's a typical troll's tactic
And then his question on meta predates his comments
Which clearly shows he's expected it
 
He does need to be careful, as this is not a place for proselytizing.
 
@Vitaly He does look like a troll in my eyes. Once this site gets mods, they will need to look into it.
 
Plus the “Deep South” location, plus the verse in his profile, and you get the full picture
 
I would say more than one of his posts include inflammatory language as well. I'm with Vitaly on this one.
 
It's unfair to judge him based on "deep south"
But after reading more comments, I am on the fence.
Quoting the bible isn't going to get anywhere here.
Defending theism is fine, even a particular flavor.
 
3:47 PM
As long as he doesn't attack anyone, then I think the behavior is fine. But, I'd keep my eye on him.
 
I agree, I just give a lot of weight to the troll hypothesis.
 
His quote in his profile is pretty trolly here.
 
That's why I asked if he was a troll in the beginning of this discussion.
 
There are plenty of other bible verses that he could quote that would be more positive to discussion.
 
yep
and even his more reasonable responses have been really off-topic.
-1
A: How do religious people both claim God works in mysterious ways while also claiming to know what God wants us to do?

The PreacherBad things happen because man has rejected God. Even though God has given every man intelligence and an ability to distinguish right from wrong, man has chosen to do wrong. The consequences are devastating. Sin brings death and destruction, and finally Hell. God never intended for it to be that w...

 
3:57 PM
That is off-topic.
 
That said, when I brought that up, he was totally reasonable about it.
 
mfg
he's obviously not alone, otherwise he wouldn't still have 75 rep. as long as he isnt personally attacking people he's a part of the community
just vote on off-topicness etc and he should likely get the point, unless he just likes being a martyr
i think flagging generally works better in a lot of these cases
 
ya. that is really off topic, even though I commented in there.
I regret doing that, actually.
The problem is that part of what atheism is is a critique of religions, so it is a fine line.
 
he just likes being a martyr
 
4:26 PM
@ThisIstheId I like this answer to that question
1
A: How do religious people both claim God works in mysterious ways while also claiming to know what God wants us to do?

MudakThere's an interesting parallel to this question, against the "incompetent design" argument, so I beg of everyone to allow me to draw this parallel. The so-called "intelligent design" argument of how we came to be generally posits that life is too complex not to have a designer. Although it's n...

Actually, this Preacher user isn't not very popular on the site.
 
Not totally sure why that was directed at me :). But it does address one half of the question but it doesn't deal with the other half
 
@spoulson Nope. That's because most people disagree with him
 
was that a purposeful double negative?
Sorry, @spoulson was that a purposeful double negative?
 
@jjnguy It just seems that his theist answers are not well received because they lack logic.
 
But @spoulson, to finish my earlier thought it goes in depth onto the mysterious ways bit, but that doesn't explain how you can then know what God wants you to do.
 
4:31 PM
@jjnguy Or perhaps lack proper background when read by an atheist.
 
I think there are a good number of ex-religionists particularly ex-christians here who were well schooled in the Bible and the ways of defending one's faith against arguments against it
I don't think that the proper background argument holds.
 
@jjnguy I, for one, don't follow his answer to the above question because the religious rhetoric doesn't work on me.
 
What? He has been upvoted 4 times in the last 20 minutes?
 
@spoulson I think they are not well-received because that is how he intends to make the,.
@spoulson I think the answer is just off-topic
so it is hard to understand how it is an answer t othe question
 
@ThisIstheId are you saying The Preacher is an ex-theist?
@jjnguy Yeah, I agree. It just seems to be a common theist outrageous answer, though.
outrageous, meaning he was outraged. You know because he started quoting the bible.
 
4:35 PM
No
 
@ThisIstheId Then I'm having a hard time following your point.
 
As a rule of thumb: If your answer has a bible quote in it, it is wrong.
3
 
@spoulson I was saying that there are enough people with a background in the bible and christian theology to have the background to read it though we're athiests.
 
@jjnguy wrong or not, it is certainly off-topic.
 
@Ustice yup.
 
4:37 PM
@Ustice I wish it were more than that it was off-topic, since now it seems like we are actively discriminating against him even when he's not being openly inflammatory.
@spoulson, perhaps I misunderstood your statement about common background, could you rephrase?
 
@jjnguy Not necessarily. For me, using verses as an argument that largely leaves interpretation up to the reader is a form of intimidation.
@ThisIstheId If you were born/raised theist, then you have all the connections in your brain about what it means to be theist. Any other way of life would be foreign.
 
mfg
he had questions before didn't he?
 
@spoulson Now I see what you were saying, that he lacks the background to filter his arguments so that we can understand them
 
@ThisIstheId So, sometimes I read stuff like The Preacher's post, and it doesn't really make sense. I can shake it off as off-topic, but the conflict is he believes it's on-topic because of assumptions made.
 
@spoulson I think that those go away over time.
 
4:40 PM
@spoulson I thought you were saying the opposite that we lack the background to understand his thought processes.
 
@Ustice Agreed. I was born and raised Catholic. But I can easily see things from an Atheist point of view.
 
@ThisIstheId Actually, this is exactly what I'm saying
@ThisIstheId Vice versa also applies.
 
@spoulson: And I disagree with both.
I also think that he did understand after I brought it to his attention that his post was off-topic.
 
@ThisIstheId When reading posts written to an atheism site, it's fair to assume most userbase will have an atheist background. So, certain religious assumptions will not apply to every reader.
 
>*it seems like we are actively discriminating against him*
 
4:42 PM
I was raised mostly atheist. My mother is a Christian, but that was never a part of my life. My dad was raised Jewish, but is really agnostic/atheist.
 
Totally on board with that, but the question was asking people to respond as a religious person would
 
I'm sorry, you guys can be all hand wringy and shit if you want.
Of course we're actively discriminating against him.
He's wrong.
 
Y u no know that humans use their lungs to think? R u actually sayin' dat those squishy grey brains could possibly be the source of thought? Lol u mad! And u call urselves cognitive scientists! Hah!
 
@Vitaly discriminating, yes. Against? I'm not. He's free to post what he wants and let the other users downvote him as they please.
 
I discriminate against wrong people a lot.
 
4:43 PM
@spoulson I was quoting @ThisIstheId
 
Well yes, he's wrong. But I don't see why we need to make him feel unwelcome if he is not a troll.
 
@Vitaly I see
 
@Ustice I was quoting @ThisIstheId
 
@Josiah What does "hand wringy" mean?
 
@ThisIstheId I forget what we're even arguing about with The Preacher guy. I guess I mostly agree with you.
 
4:44 PM
But that's my general way of approaching theists, let them be and slowly convince them that they're mad.
 
@ThisIstheId It's hard to say for sure if he is a troll or not. He's sort of in the middle.
 
I just dislike it when people drop verses as the punchline of an argument, as if to say "Aha! You're busted!"
 
@ThisIstheId I don't think that you will get very far trying to convince them that they are crazy.
 
I just can't see how telling someone that everything they say is wrong again and again is going to help aid discussion between the two sides.
 
@jjnguy I don't know how to describe it. I meant that you guys are giving more concern than the situation requires or deserves.
 
4:45 PM
That said, if he's a troll, that's not cool and we need to solve that problem.
 
@Josiah Ok. That helps. Thanks.
 
If he's a troll we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 
@ThisIstheId SE solves that for us democratically.
 
Are there tools for that? I am not at that level yet.
 
mostly, anyway
 
4:46 PM
There will be once we have a real mod Ustice.
 
It seems that for some reason, you cannot think that a troll could reply “I see why you think it's offtopic” just to get people to doubt he's a troll
@Josiah very well said
 
It doesn't matter if he's a troll. These aren't forums.
If he is offensive something can be done.
Otherwise just let him get downvoted to obscurity.
 
His rep is almost as high as mine. XD
 
@spoulson and @ThisIstheId and @jjnguy sitting in the tree … discussing T-h-e P-r-e-a-c-h-e-r
Did I miss anyone?
 
You just suck @Ustice ;)
 
4:48 PM
You.
 
Hah!
 
You got caught in the meta-flow.
 
@Vitaly That didn't flow nearly as well as the real song does...
 
@Vitaly What can I say, the guy is a notable source
 
@Josiah Hey, I have only just joined. Give me time. :D
 
4:53 PM
@spoulson Notable or notorious?
 
Seems he's last seen 13 min ago
Maybe we should get him in chat
 
@Ustice, answer lots of questions shortly.
 
@ThePreacher
 
Except ones about prayer, fuck that shit.
 
@Josiah You don't like prayer?
 
4:54 PM
@jjnguy, I've found answers about prayer are hit or miss for me.
 
I can see it being useful for organizing thoughts.
 
cough
 
I frequently think out loud for that reason.
 
we have some anti-honesty discriminators.
 
@Josiah What does that mean?
 
4:56 PM
@jjnguy Taking the comment out of context, I disagree. The Bible has a lot of verses that make powerful arguments against religion.
 
@jjnguy It means I'm teasing you.
I need to find a place to put a "Don't take me seriously" sign.
 
I think if you just write it up and tape it to your monitor that'd do the trick.
 
@Josiah Use this one --> ;)
 
The people I work with already know not to take me seriously.
 
...I'm not sure if you knew i was not being serious...or whether we've just gone this far down the rabbit hole that communication is just screwed.
 
4:58 PM
Sorry. I'll try again.
The people I work with already know not to take me seriously. ;)
 
@Josiah I finally get what you mean. I am anti honesty sometimes I guess. Oh well.
 
It was just too many levels to know.
 
@Josiah XD Wait, so are you saying that they take you too seriously then? ;)
 
@Borror0 True. But it is usually wrong to include a bible verse if you think you are defending religion.
 
The errors about what I thought you thought I thought you thought just kept compounding and compounding
 
4:59 PM
@jjnguy, sorry for not answering, then. I thought you had taken it as an actual insult when i meant it lightheartedly.
 
and a new reality was born.
Josiah I think we just birthed a god.
 
Is he a Sork?
 
Let us call him Iteration
 
@Josiah I try not to take anything personally on the internet.
 
Hurry! Kill it! Kill it! Before it breeds!
 
5:00 PM
@jjinguy That's good cause your profile picture makes you look like a tool ;)
 
@ThisIstheId It's from my cousin's wedding...I look awesome in a suit! But I'm usually not nearly that dressed up.
 
I...can't tell...if you are being serious.
The lack of a winky smily is completely debilitating.
 
here
 
I was just commenting to make an insult since you said you don't take anything seriously, which I see as an invitation for stupid insults.
 
;););););););););););)
save them and use them when you need them.
 
5:02 PM
ahhh
the muscle craps are stopping
 
at first I read it as muscle carps. It made more sense that way.
 
Who knew that a winky smile was the cure to epilepsy.
 
@ThisIstheId (I'm ignoring you, cuz I'm pissed!)






;)
 
Hmmm, this might be a bad idea...but what does everyone think of Evan?
 
5:05 PM
meta.stackoverflow Evan or Atheism Evan?
 
I'm not sure if there is a difference...that's what I'm afraid of.
 
There's a big difference
 
But, for now. Atheism Evan
This question:
0
Q: Rewarding plagiarizers is a bad idea.

Evan CarrollIf a user calls someone out for copying an article, that post should deleted: not just amended to add the citation, but deleted. You know how much original stuff of mine Jeff has wrongly censored. I'm banned from meta.stackoverflow.com for actions that weren't morally offensive to anyone. I ass...

Feels like MSO Evan.
 
On meta.SO, he's the most downvoted person of all times and banned. On Atheism., he asked a lot of very good question and provided quality answer. Even on meta.atheism, he has a lot of good q's and a's.
 
mfg
yeah im not sure what the back story is on that, and i saw a few snarky comments about so employees, but on the whole he contributes to the convo
 
5:09 PM
lmao
he's seemed like an alright guy to me.
 
I'm just gonna be careful around him.
 
@Josiah I have a very positive opinion of him as well.
 
I will try not to let my previous encounters sway my opinion I guess.
 
Looking at his meta reputation, he is pretty epic.
 
Ha, ~-800. That's pretty good.
 
5:15 PM
The graph is just beautiful. Start at 0, crash.
 
5:26 PM
I'm not banned from this chat. Be careful, I can respond in my own defense.
And, I know how that makes a select group of you feel powerless to the extent that you'd rather ban me..
Namely, my old MSO brethren
 
@EvanCarroll Since you're here. the MSO bashing really does take way from your very good point
 
brb, lunch
 
mfg
yeah, basically that post was what was questionable, not your prior Q and a's at all
i understand the whole wanting to embed context in case it gets moved, but it seems like you're just drawing attention to a first time offender
 
@mfg You don't think we should have a policy against plagiarism?
 
@Evan, I have an open mind. An am well aware that you can read chat.
 
5:31 PM
I wasn't questioning your open mind, but Borror0
He seems to value my contributions on one site, over the other sites.
I should remind you, that my removal from MSO was petitioned for reversal by the userbase, and closed by the admins.
That's a fact.
In fact, the source of my ban was a question that was drawing attention to my unjust treatment on MSO: also a fact.
 
@mfg Especially plagiarizing freaking Wikipedia. It's under freaking Creative Commons. You can legally quote the whole thing for as long as you say where it's from...
 
I do remember John Rudy's petition.
 
And, as far as explanations go, Jeff has said, and will gladly say again, I was only banned for causing "too much talk".
Borror0, that's what plagiarizing is to begin with -- quoting without saying where it is from. It doesn't go away because it is cc-by-sa, in fact the crime is more grievous. In this case, they're giving it away!!! All they want is you to say where you got it! The same thing applies with the SO content by the way.
 
@EvanCarroll I must have come across the wrong way. I was trying to say that, although you have a reputation for being a troll over at MSO, you're one of the best contributors over here.
@EvanCarroll I know. That is exactly what I said.
 
I'm also one of the best contributors over there..
 
5:38 PM
Controversial != Best
 
If you don't believe create a question about it, and read what the audience says before the double-diamonds start the smear-close-delete trend.
 
I wouldn't know. I don't read MSO much, hence why I used the term reputation rather than state it as a fact.
 
Yea, but that's largely because my good posts have been deleted by Jeff.
Which was also brought up to be unjust and unprecedented -- to which he closed and deleted
Some think this is why he deleted all of the suggestions that pertain to the old tagging system, and retagging.
 
Evan, most of the time your good posts were hidden behind personal attacks on the SO staff and mods.
 
Yea, that's what the detractors point out to get the down-votes in place...
And, then go about doing the same thing on the chat, and in the Q/A and comments.
except they lack all substance
Rather, amusing.
I should also point out this isn't my own observation, this was the content behind the "Stop bashing EC post"
 
5:43 PM
(I'm disappointed with myself for starting this discussion.)
 
I'm waiting for someone to leak the internal E-mails of Jeff to wikileaks.
Shed light on this issue, and make the practices as SE more transparent.
 
That would be funny.
 
Yea, it would -- I admit it's a long shot.
I'm sure he has his computer locked down with BitLocker
 
mfg
5:57 PM
@Borror0 sorry i had to drop the room for a minute, if you look at the post and what i link to, im am explicit in my formal abhorrence of plagiarism, however, this was the first incident of it by that user. i'd rather assume that he dropped a citation than that he was prepared to pretend the work was his.
 

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