Hub of Reason

Here's why I'm asking these questions...if we can figure out why an act like reading is enjoyable we should be able to figure out why the act of reading is a solution to the problem of boredom...

Josiah

Possibly, I would have no clue.

I hate classic literature.

hate

I'm hardly the person to find a sane solution to that problem. I read because I don't want to be here.

Ami

So for you, reading is an escape...

Josiah

Everything I do is.

almost every aspect of my daily life is a ritual to escape it.

Ami

Take your classic religious Christian...

He's in Church eating some sacrament or confessing or something like that

He's engaged in a ritual

Could that be a form of escapism as well?

Josiah

12:28 AM

If it's done for avoidance, it could. Almost anything could.

Do I think it's a useful insight, that people might use religion for escape?

Only insomuch as masturbation is a useful means of escape.

Ami

Saying that religion can be used as an escape isn't a useful insight

A useful insight would be to understand how religion serves as escape and how it differs from various other types of escapes we could imagine

Ustice

There are many reasons to read. Escapism is just one. Enlightenment, connecting with someone, vicarious thrill, assistance, etc.

Ami

@Ustice awesome....now you need to define enlightenment

Ustice

Religion is much the same.

Ami

for sure

Ustice

12:30 AM

To some, it may be escape, an to others an anchor.

Ami

but what is it?

Ustice

Enlightenment meaning gaining knowledge that you didn't previously possess.

Josiah

That's a pretty strict definition.

Ustice

Religion? Ultimately, it is a world-view.

Josiah

World view enabler, amirite?

Racism? We have quotes for you!

Sexism? Just pick one of many...

Ustice

12:33 AM

@Josiah that was just for my example.

Josiah

Like killin' people? We have untold numbers of reasons.

@Ustice, I'm becoming more friendly.

It took me time to get used to being on the lower end of the IQ spectrum here.

Ami

@Ustice so you see religion as people trying to gain some kind of knowledge?

Can you elaborate please?

Ustice

No. I see religion as their base understanding of the world around them.

All of their experience is defined by that religion/world-view.

No, I was talking about reading. I don't see any knowledge in religion.

Ami

Sorry

Ustice

Np. People can seek enlightenment that way, but it seems futile to me.

They more often seek emotional comfort.

Ami

12:38 AM

please explain

Ustice

It's generally a hope for a just world.

See wikipedia on the just world fallacy.

Josiah

ooo

reminded me radiohead owns

karma police ftw

Ustice

It makes people feel protected

Ami

Okay...I agree

but I think religion does something else as well...

The problem of boredom is the problem of not having any meaning in one's life

The problem or boredom arises when everything I do feels useless and futile.

I think religion is attractive because it promises to solve this problem as well

Religion is able to take the mundane activities of life and elevate them as ritual

It solves the problem of a finite exist by promising an afterlife

Does that make sense?

@Josiah radiohead is the best.

Josiah

It refused to fucking play.

woot, fixed

Ustice

12:43 AM

Boredom is from being idle or doing rote action.

I don't think ritual will fix that.

But yes, many people cling to it to fill a void in their life.

Ami

Why do people get bored when they do rote action?

Ustice

To push back fear.

They are mentally idle.

Josiah

I enjoy rote action sometimes. Mostly manual labor.

Preferably hard physical labor.

Ami

@Josiah exactly.

Josiah

Moving boxes, for example.

Ami

12:45 AM

why do people like sports?

Ustice

Acting without thinking. Though meditation can be relaxing.

Josiah

Because they're stupid.

Sorry. I hate sports a lot.

Ami

how about archery?

do you hate archery?

Ustice

It's exciting. It engages the fight or flight response. Lots of good hormones there.

Ami

Not all sports...not golf

Ustice

12:47 AM

Golf is more of a game than a sport.

Ami

Take two people

Ustice

If golf is a sport then so are the booths at the fair. It's a game of skill.

Josiah

Would I enjoy shooting things with a bow and arrow? Fuck yes. Would I go so far as to call that sport? nah.

Lies! You can win at golf.

Ami

both of them are forced to shoot arrows at a target

Ustice

Again. Game of skill

Ami

12:48 AM

no problem...we're not talking about sports anymore

we're talking about a game of skill - archery

Josiah

yay

I wouldn't really enjoy it competitively either.

Ami

They're forced to shoot arrows at a target for 18 hrs straight

no breaks

Josiah

That's a death march, not a sport.

Ami

They both enjoy it for the first 1hr or so

after the first hr, the first guy starts getting extremely bored and sick of the game

but the second guy doesn't get bored...he's really really into it

after 4 hrs the first guy feels like he's in hell...its worse than doing mindless rote tasks...its worse than sisyphus, but the second guy is thoroughly enjoying himself ... for all 18 hrs

what is the difference, psychologically speaking between the first and second guy?

Now...if you don't believe that a person can do archery for 18 hrs straight, read the book "zen in the art of archery"

wikipedia page posted above

Josiah

Insanity is the psychological difference.

Ami

12:53 AM

How about basketball players that shoot free-throws all day long?

Josiah

Insanity.

Ami

lol

Possibly

Apparently the same task can be perceived as enjoyable to one person and boring to another

So "rote task" doesn't really explain what causes boredom

"The archer ceases to be conscious of himself as the one who is engaged in hitting the bull's-eye which confronts him. This state of unconscious is realized only when, completely empty and rid of the self, he becomes one with the perfecting of his technical skill, though there is in it something of a quite different order which cannot be attained by any progressive study of the art"

Josiah

Well, let's be honest here. It's not a rote task unless you're a noob.

To the zen archer or the basketball player, each arrow is data.

Minor adjustments.

We're just not into it enough to understand the finer points of foot placement and minute adjustments of bow and hand.

So calling it a rote task is, I think, ignoring the fact that they have a deeper understanding of what they're doing.

Ami

@Josiah that's a good point

Can the archer metaphor be applied to life in general?

Two people...both are forced to live about 80 years before old age will kill them

The first guy gets really really bored after about 30 years...he's actually sitting on the roof of a building contemplating suicide as we speak. The second guy, he's not bored of life...he's really into it.

Whats the difference between the two of them?

Josiah

If the one on the roof is me, general anxiety disorder.

Otherwise, probably some tramp broke his heart.

Ami

1:02 AM

Fine...I take it back. He's not on a roof.

He's just bored

No more no less

Josiah

damn

I can't fit anything firm into the metaphor.

Ami

Why damn? Its a good thing he's not on the roof anymore.

Josiah

I don't know how to explain it, but nothing sensible flows.

You don't even know the guy, maybe he had good reasons, Jeez.

Ami

of course I know him....I invented him

Josiah

In that case, why is he so bored Ami?

Ami

1:06 AM

If I knew the answer to that question I would have told you already and we wouldn't have had to deal with this insanely wandering conversation

We got into this conversation when we decided to make a list of things that could help solve the problem of boredom

Then we got side tracked by the question of religion...does religion solve the problem of boredom?

Our results are so far inconclusive

I tend to think it does.

I think rituals and religious doctrine have the power to give a sense of purpose to one's actions

This doesn't mean that the religions of the wold are true, it just means that they could be useful to some people.

@Josiah what do you think?

Josiah

But you invented him, and you said you know him.

Ami

I only know him as well as I know myself.

Josiah

I would gather, from all the rabbit trails, that the problem of boredom isn't boredom. More that boredom is a symptom.

Ami

I agree with that 100 percent

That is a deep and subtle point

Josiah

What is it a symptom of? Lots and lots of broken people..

Ami

1:13 AM

Remember a few days ago we spoke about the absurdity of life? Camus philosophy.

Josiah

It's a familiar feeling.

At least, I associate with it when I'm not completely deranged with anxiety.

Then again, that just might have been dissociation.

Ami

Anyway, I mentioned a piece in G. K. Chesterton where he talks about a paranoid schizophrenic who thinks that either everyone is out to get him or that he is the king of england...

Chesterton's point is that the world is different sizes for different people

Someone who thinks everyone is out to get him, imagines a world that is pretty pathetic

Josiah

Maybe even an odd expression of narcissism.

Ami

In the world of the schizophrenic there is no room for love, art, great music...

narcissism - excactly

Josiah

I guess I know mildly sane schizos

Ami

1:18 AM

Chesterton asks the question: "how does what I believe alter the nature of the world I live in?"

What set of beliefs will give me a world that is absurd and cramped and meaningless?

And what set of beliefs will give me a world that is beautiful mysterious etc.

Skip to 3:25

►

I think its a really important piece of poetry

again...skip ahead to 3 minutes and 25 seconds to get to the important part

Josiah

That's a lot of fucking holes.

Ami

Allen Ginsberg is giving you an insight into the world he lives in...its a world where everything is holy

Josiah

The cocks of the grandfathers of Kansas.

Being a Kansan is really gay right now...

I have to apologize, I'm not very civilized and certainly uncultured. It sounds like he put the word holy in a blender.

Ami

He did

Josiah

The number of words to express something so simple (and the number of times he says cock(s)) is just too much effort.

At least, I would like to punch that man.

Ami

1:23 AM

Well, Ginsberg was a homosexual

Why would you like to punch him?

Josiah

I find it annoying and pretentious. I did say I'm uncultured.

Ami

Look...the cultured people hated Ginsberg

they thought he was uncultured.

Josiah

I mean, yeah, he gets bonus points for putting dongs in a poem so many times and me having heard of it.

Ami

I love that poem

Josiah

They did, but when was it?

Ami

1:25 AM

recent

From wikipedia:

"In 1957, "Howl" attracted widespread publicity when it became the subject of an obscenity trial in which a San Francisco prosecutor argued it contained "filthy, vulgar, obscene, and disgusting language."

Josiah

right

Ami

Howl is Ginsberg's masterpiece

Josiah

It's no longer considered uncultured.

So maybe in a racist, fiercely conservative America I am cultured.

Ami

Who cares about cultured people...they come and go with the fad

Josiah

That was my point about you saying they thought he was uncultured.

I actually have a preference to, what's the word, austerity?

I liked the stranger a lot because it was direct and to the point.

Have you ever read a book by Dean Koontz?

Ami

1:28 AM

no

Josiah

Don't

He has a thesaurus and just adds adjectives willy nilly.

But that's no longer a useful example.

Atlas Shrugged, maybe?

some of it

Same.

lol

Too much unimportant shit.

I really don't care to have every excruciating detail of what's in your character's head in their bloody conversations.

Nor do I generally want to hear a lot of descriptions. You may have a beautiful vocabulary, and some expressive words in your tool belt, but I have an above average vocabulary and if I'm going for a dictionary it's a bit annoying.

Ami

1:30 AM

forget about his style for a second...just think about the world that Ginsberg is describing

Its the exact opposite of the world that Camus describes in "The Stranger"

Do you see what I mean?

In "The Stranger" nothing at all mattered. For Ginsberg every little thing, even the vulgar things...they all matter

Josiah

I'm not sure that I do.

I think that makes them somewhat similar in some regards.

Ami

"The Stranger" didn't see beauty anywhere, nothing is worth his time, even life is unimportant...for Ginsberg everything he sees has beauty!

Allen Ginsberg doesn't necessarily believe in God, but for him every aspect of his existence is imbued with numinous

Numinous

Numinous (, from the Classical Latin numen) is an English adjective describing the power or presence of a divinity. The word was popularised in the early twentieth century by the German theologian Rudolf Otto in his influential book Das Heilige (1917; translated into English as The Idea of the Holy, 1923). According to Otto the numinous experience has two aspects: mysterium tremendum, which is the tendency to invoke fear and trembling; and mysterium fascinans, the tendency to attract, fascinate and compel. The numinous experience also has a personal quality to it, in that the person feels ...

My experience of life isn't like "The Stranger" and it isn't like Ginsberg's either...mine is somewhere in the middle

Josiah

The Stranger didn't seem that bleak to me.

Ami

It doesn't seem bleak to me either...its just different

Chesterton wants to tell the paranoid schizophrenic: "if you just stop worrying your life will be so much more meaningful"

In his own way, thats what Ginsberg is saying to people who don't see any beauty and meaning in life

does any of this make any sense?

and I'm sorry for ranting...I'm finally done now, I promise

Josiah

It does, to some extent.

The random jokes and quietness are part thoughtfulness and part anxiety.

Ami

1:41 AM

anxiety it terrible...I'm really sorry you have to go through that

Josiah

It can be.

It's part of why I'm defensive about some ideas. Seeing beauty and meaning in life can be hindered pretty severely.

The idea that a schizophrenic can stop worrying and have a more meaningful life is condescending, at best.

Ami

You're absolutely correct

Josiah

But the Stranger reminds me of dissociative personality disorder.

But admitting the absurd and being okay with it probably can't be described better than dissociation.

I sort of walked myself into a contradiction.

Ami

how?

Josiah

The dissociation is one of accepting and embracing. Which sounds not at all like dissociation.

Ami

1:50 AM

I see

Josiah

Do you think accepting absurdity brings levity to life that might not exist beforehand?

Ami

no

Josiah

Why not?

Ami

I think accepting absurdity is about being courageous

Josiah

I mean that, well, if I accept the absurdity of my life it becomes a joke to an extent.

When I see severely absurd things, and it doesn't have a negative impact, how else could I see it than mildly humorous?

Ami

1:52 AM

Imagine a cancer patient who's going to die in two weeks

will accepting their own death bring them levity?

I don't think so.

But accepting one's own death and being able to enjoy a drink with friends or give a lecture...that takes real courage

Josiah

I don't think that's quite embracing the absurdity of it.

Maybe I am confusing it completely with dissociation.

Ami

Coming back to Ginsberg for a moment...we don't have to agree with that poem I showed you to appreciate or see value in it. I don't think the point of the poem is to make us something we're not, but rather to give insight into people who see the world differently than us.

Have you seen the "double rainbow" youtube video by any chance?

Josiah

I do agree with it. I just don't like him.

Another person I would punch, for entirely different reasons.

Ami

The double rainbow video is a perfect example of the type of consciousness that Ginsberg is describing.

Josiah

What? No.

What does it all mean.

What does it meaaaaan

fucking nothing asshole, but it's pretty

stfu and enjoy it

Ami

2:00 AM

lol

Josiah

Don't get me wrong, I can watch symphony of science videos and have them bring me to tears at times.

Ami

The guy in the video may have been on drugs but thats irrelevant, what matters is that he sees the world through the lens that Ginsberg is describing

Josiah

he was on Tosh.0

The drugs are pretty much guaranteed.

Ami

Understanding that lens...the Ginsberg lens, the double rainbow lens is fundamental in understanding the difference between atheists and theists

Josiah

How so?

Ami

2:02 AM

You may hate theists and think they're stupid, but they see in the world in a fundamentally different way

Josiah

We just point it at different things.

Ami

To be a theist is to experience a God in the world

Its to see meaning in everything...even a rainbow

The experience of the theist embraces holiness and numinous

Josiah

Well, especially a rainbow, because it's a promise.

Ami

Yes

Josiah

now you're one of those authors I dislike.

making me look things up

Ami

2:05 AM

its an important word

few things are more frustrating for a atheist than debating with a theist

everyone atheist who's been on this site knows that already

and the reason its so frustrating is that the two camps are coming from fundamentally different experiences of the world...they're not even speaking the same language!

There is nothing you can tell Ginsberg that will change his perception of holiness

There is no argument that will make the double rainbow guy stop asking "what does it mean?"

Josiah

I wouldn't bother, personally.

Him sobering up, I guess, was probably the best argument.

Have you seen what he looks like?

Ami

no

Josiah

google that shit.

Ami

Do you remember when I mentioned Jorge Luis Borges to you the other day?

Borges has line: "every cultivated man is a theologian, and faith is not a requisite."

Josiah

I have the wikipedia article for Jorge open still.

Ami

2:11 AM

That line by Borges is probably the most profound and useful philosophical line I know

Josiah

You can, to some extent, remove cultivated.

Ami

For sure

Borges is saying that every man should be, needs to be a theologian. If he's not, there is something missing in his life.

Josiah

Ah, yes. I'm so unaccustomed to reading philosophical things.

Should have gone to college instead of wasting my life.

Ami

wikipedia and youtube can teach you much more than college can

and its less than half the price

Josiah

So can the expensive books I buy.

But it would have forced me to do things I won't do on my own.

Ami

2:14 AM

What do you think of this one:

►

Josiah

I might not know any of the name drops.

Which makes the entire thing weird and meaningless.

I don't get it at all.

Ami

Walt Whitman was an American poet who sang about beauty in nature.

Allen Ginsberg is describing his thoughts as he's walking in a supermarket with a book of Whitman poems in his pocket.

Its all just crazy

Ginsberg is crazy, his thoughts are bizzare

I happen to think its wonderful...but there are plenty of people who can't stand it

@Josiah as always its been a pleasure chatting with you

I must be going

have a great night

Josiah

ah

@Ami, sorry, was letting puppies out. I agree, he is a bit crazy. Also a pleasure, and I hope you had a good night.

Ami

@Josiah I'm back

I had a thought

Earlier I said "its frustrating for an atheist when he's trying to convince a theist because the two of them are talking a different language"

I want to make a slight adjustment

When debating with a theist, if you're aware of that difference in perspective...

most theists and probably all of the theists who engage in theist-atheist debates are completely unaware of that difference in perspective we were talking about

Josiah

2:34 AM

lmao

Ami

which is very very useful for an atheist

Josiah

It's hard to consider the difference in perspective.

I am good at empathy, but i've been an apostate for around ten years and I've already forgotten the feeling.

Mostly.

Ami

I've heard all the famous atheist debaters: C. Hitchens Dennett, Harris...

They're all smart guys, but they have no clue about how to properly debate with a theist