The Whiteboard

12:10 AM

sometimes we could really do better at explaining why something is off-topic in a way that makes sense to newbies; I doubt his reaction would've been as bad if the first comment was more like "this question crosses the line from asking for help to asking us to do your work for you; if you could ask a more specific question..."

Telastyn

At what age is "do my work for me" acceptable? 4, for tying your laces?

I'm beginning to see why languages don't implement sum types.

durron597

9

Q: What “Industry Classification” is Computer Programming?

Whenever I fill out a survey (especially, but not limited to trade-papers/mags/sites), there’s one question (or any derivation thereof) that always trips me up: Which industry classification best describes your line of work This is usually followed by a list of things like Retail, Health, E...

meh ^^^

Duga

6:07 AM

I think your question would be a better fit for programmers or codereview. — BatteryBackupUnit 1 min ago

Thomas Owens

1:37 PM

For people who use emacs and vi, how feasible is it to use the plugins that I see that add IDE-like functionality? I'm specifically looking at refactoring support. Tools like Eclipse, IntelliJ / CLion / JetBrains IDEs, Visual Studio, and so on offer a lot of refactoring support. Renaming, moving, extracting interfaces from classes, renaming member variables, making instance variables from local variables, and so on. Is it realistic to expect someone using a text editor to have this capability?

If anyone wants to talk about code exploration (finding uses of a particular method, finding references to a class, highlighting dependencies, call hierarchies, class outlines), code generation (automatically adding the required methods from interfaces or abstract classes, generating boilerplate equals/toString/hashCode like methods, getters/setters, constructors), and code execution (invoking main methods, unit tests, etc), that would be interesting as well.

For the record - I do see that some of this functionality exists (as plugins or build-in) in tools like vi and emacs. But if I were to define process steps that assumed that refactoring or exploring code was as trivial as it is in something like Eclipse, would that be reasonable?

user55340

The only hard core text editor types I've seen preferring that over an ide work in the more dynamic languages where automated refactoring is problematic at best.

André

I never used vi or emacs, I'm sure the refactoring capabilities on Eclipse uses Eclipse JDT api, creating a abstract syntax tree of the java code, so it manipulate a data structure then commit things to the text file. I had once to remove try {} catch {} finally {} blocks specifically with method calls on specific interfaces. Used JDT, was okay-ish. Also wrote a small empty catch {} block checker with JDT

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT That I don't have much experience in. I should probably work with PyDev, maybe, and see how that handles refactoring.

user55340

I prefer vi / BBEdit for perl work. I haven't opened a .java file in vi since college ('96).

Thomas Owens

1:52 PM

I don't tend to work much with dynamic languages. Small perl scripts, sometimes.

user55340

Thus, refactoring isn't an issue when working in there. Tab completion of identifiers is all I want or trust.

Thomas Owens

I do work with people who use emacs or vi for C, C++, and Java. The refactoring there isn't as capable as in tools like Eclipse or IntelliJ. I'm just wondering if I can make the assumption and say that, since these tools are available to everyone, that I can make the assumption that everyone has this capability to quickly refactor code or generate code.

To me, not using an IDE is just wrong. You should have this capabilities. Not to mention in-line error detection so you don't need to compile to see that you forgot a semicolon.

user55340

I cannot imagine working in Java or c++ without an ide in today's world.

user55340

In line error detection is doable for syntax in enhanced text editors though.

user55340

They have trouble when you go beyond syntax to types.

Thomas Owens

1:59 PM

Same. I don't think it's appropriate to force a tool on someone, and I wouldn't advocate that. But I think it's totally OK for me to say that refactoring should be as easy as a couple of mouse clicks.

user55340

Btw, idea IntelliJ is still 20% off.

Thomas Owens

I still don't see a reason to leave Eclipse.

It has all the functionality I need to do development in all the languages I'm interested in (Java, C, C++, Scala, Clojure, Haskell, Python) and I've been using it over over a decade now.

user55340

@ThomasOwens @André had some commentary on it earlier with his eclipse to IntelliJ experience.

user55340

23 hours ago, by André

@MichaelT, you were right, IntelliJ refactoring and auto complete is pure goodness

André

I feel that the code completion and refactoring is handled better in IntelliJ

Still using Eclipse

Thomas Owens

2:08 PM

I've never had an issue with refactoring in Eclipse. But the comfort factor is a big one. Unless you can show me a drastic improvement in my ability to work, why switch?

André

nods

user55340

reddit.com/r/java/comments/2j3bsf/…

user55340

reddit.com/r/java/comments/3772km/…?

André

I got impressed while working with JNSI methods for GWT, it suggested variables I've used before. I haven't tried IntelliJ to see if it supports hotswap in deployed applications

user55340

The thing that still sells me is the introspection of strings used as sql.

user55340

2:13 PM

It does sql syntax checks on the strings. If you have the db hooked up, you get completion of table names and columns.

André

I also was amused at refactoring the getter setter after field rename.

durron597

Someone upvoted this today. I had forgotten about it:

4

Q: Placing a circle in a square lattice

Two part question. Consider the square lattice $\mathbb{Z}^2$: Imagine you are going to place a circle of radius $r$ somewhere in $\mathbb{R}^2$. Question 1: What is the radius of the largest circle that cannot be placed anywhere in $\mathbb{R}^2$ without overlapping or containing any of the...

probability circle integer-lattices

@ThomasOwens I can't remember the last time I used vim for development, other than writing bash scripts

I do everything in a windowed gui

@MichaelT Sale lasts until May 31

user55340

@ThomasOwens download the trial version. Play with it. See if you like it or not.

user55340

366

Q: Things possible in IntelliJ that aren't possible in Eclipse?

I have heard from people who have switched either way and who swear by the one or the other. Being a huge Eclipse fan but having not had the time to try out IntelliJ, I am interested in hearing from IntelliJ users who are "ex-Eclipsians" some specific things that you can do with IntelliJ that yo...

java eclipse ide intellij-idea

user55340

2:32 PM

For me, the thing is eclipse works well and has a good price point for small to medium projects. When you start to get to things that have larger code bases, database and complexity of build and versioning the lack of quality in eclipse plugins for those becomes a pain point.

user55340

Not a big one, but one where it is worth $200 to not have that pain.

user55340

In the grand scheme of code, $200 is squat compared to the code being developed or the price of the hardware needed.

user55340

fun php code

durron597

3:07 PM

@MichaelT Pukevomit

Strings should not support ++. STRONG TYPING AMIRITE

user55340

3d9 -> 3e0. That makes sense.

user55340

3e0 is interpreted to be a floating point number. The next value is 4.

durron597

@MichaelT 3da would make sense, maybe.

Thomas Owens

Oh. It makes sense now.

It's stupid. But I get it.

durron597

@ThomasOwens no it doesn't. 3d9 when incremented should go to 3da.

user55340

3:10 PM

It was trying to do what perl does, but with less discipline. perldoc.perl.org/perlop.html#Auto-increment-and-Auto-decrement

Thomas Owens

@durron597 What else does 3e0 mean?

Hint: it's decimal.

durron597

@ThomasOwens d is not a decimal digit. nor is e

Thomas Owens

"e" is used in scientific notation. 3e0 = 3 * 10^0 = 3.

3++ = 4.

durron597

@ThomasOwens ... i know.

Thomas Owens

Which is why it makes sense.

durron597

3:11 PM

@ThomasOwens in what number system does 3d9 + 1 = 3e0

(ignoring the floating point garbage)

user55340

Note that perl won't do string increments on a scalar that starts with a digit.

Thomas Owens

@durron597 That part doesn't make sense yet.

The rest of it makes sense, though.

durron597

i'm more okay with the 3e0 + 1 = 4 than i am with the 3d9 + 1 = 3e0

user55340

"3d9" +1 != "3d9"++

durron597

regardless, the only thing that code ought to be outputting is 3d8 3d81 3d811 3d8111

interview question: read this php snippet. discuss all the things you like about it and hate about it.

"if you were designing a language, would it do this? or something else instead?"

ratchet freak

3:17 PM

@durron597 Why add string increment at all?

durron597

@ratchetfreak Oh, I agree... I'm a java programmer. Just, if you're going to have it, it should at least be a string operation (e.g. concatenate)

user55340

@ratchetfreak look at the perl implementation.

ratchet freak

no if you are going to have it make it an explicit function not a part of the language syntaxt

user55340

It's really quite useful in places.

durron597

@ratchetfreak Preaching to the choir

user55340

3:22 PM

It lets you do things like loop over 'aa' .. 'zz'.

durron597

@MichaelT i would be more okay with 3d9++-> 3d: but it doesn't.

user55340

@durron597 look how the Unix command split works.

user55340

Split (Unix)

split is a Unix utility most commonly used to split a file into two or more smaller files. == Usage == The command-syntax is: The default behavior of split is to generate output files of a fixed size, default 1000 lines. The files are named by appending aa, ab, ac, etc. to output filename. If output filename is not given, the default filename of x is used, for example, xaa, xab, etc. When a hyphen (-) is used instead of input filename, data is derived from standard input. To split filename to parts each 50 MB named partaa, partab, partac,.... To join the files back together again use the cat...

user55340

Though I will point out that php broke the implementation. Perl has it done reasonably in that you can reason about it.

durron597

@MichaelT It's just syntatic sugar.

user55340

3:28 PM

For what?

Robert Harvey

Is that a real interview question? I'm doomed.

user55340

If you are interviewing for a php job, I would expect some familiarity with the WAT?!s one may encounter in php.

Robert Harvey

Yeah, but 3d9?

I would expect something more along the lines of "Why would you use PDO over mySQLi," or whatever those things are.

"Hi Robert! I came across your info on Stack Exchange.

I am looking for a CTO for a new company I just started.

I've gone through a pretty thorough technical discover phase already and am thinking that it will have to be a custom php project. Would you be interested at all? Thanks!"

user55340

The funky behavior for php ++ has caused some bugs.

Robert Harvey

Some code you look at, and you just say to yourself: "That doesn't look right. If it's not buggy today, it will be buggy tomorrow."

ratchet freak

3:34 PM

go for least astonishment people; incrementing "3d9" to "3e0" is never a good idea

user55340

In perl, "3d9"++ -> 4

user55340

It starts out as a number, it's a number.

Robert Harvey

Where is the hex prefix?

Due to decimal and octal (and scientific notation) being real things, hex numbers are ambiguous without prefixes.

0x3d9

user55340

It's never a hex number in perl or php.

Robert Harvey

Wait, 3d9 is 3.9?

Or just 3?

This is just a bad idea, that's what this is.

user55340

3:38 PM

"3d9" is a string.

user55340

Until php decides the string "3e0" is actually a number.

user55340

Perl has some concept of string context vs numeric context and the two are separate things deep down.

user55340

See second part of:

user55340

3

A: Why doesn't Ruby have implicit conversion of Fixnum into String?

First, to clear up some misconceptions... perl and php Perl and php do not have implicit conversion from number to string. Consider the code (written as perl to get the warnings, but you can run it as php also and get the same (sans warnings) results): #!/usr/bin/perl use strict; use warning...

ratchet freak

trying to work with "advanced" "features" of php is like playing with that kid that doesn't like to lose and keeps changing the rules so he can win

Robert Harvey

3:46 PM

It's not advanced, it's just some clever person's idea of a good time. It's the kind of code that causes your coworker to shoot you in the head at two in the morning.

user55340

@ratchetfreak look up the early hash function for function names in php for fun.

user55340

news.php.net/php.internals/70691

user55340

> Back when PHP had less than 100 functions and the
function hashing mechanism was strlen().

ratchet freak

@MichaelT Why use strlen in the first place? I can only imagine pure lazyness that he couldn't be bothered to write a simple charSum.

user55340

> In order to get a nice hash distribution of function names across the various function name lengths names were picked specifically to make them fit into a specific length bucket. This was circa late 1994 when PHP was a tool just for my own personal use and I wasn't too worried about not being able to remember the few function names.

user55340

3:52 PM

@ratchetfreak yep.

Robert Harvey

I hope that guy got a new car or something out of that, given how many people use PHP. Linus Torvalds apparently drives around a Mercedes.

user55340

Yahoo gave Larry some stock in the boom days as a thank you.

Robert Harvey

Must be nice.

user55340

Yahoo was initially a pure perl shop. And stock is cheap to give away.

whatsisname

torvalds makes a good amount of cashmoney per year

durron597

3:58 PM

And look what PHP has become now...

user55340

@durron597 I was more thinking php.net/manual/en/indexes.functions.php and wondering if strlen was still hiding in there.

Robert Harvey

4:13 PM

What is that ux element where you type in some search text, and the list below it collapses based on your text?

Ah, autocomplete/autosuggest

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey I think it's a combo box.

user55340

jqueryui.com/autocomplete

Thomas Owens

Combo box

A combo box is a commonly used graphical user interface widget (or control). Traditionally, it is a combination of a drop-down list or list box and a single-line editable textbox, allowing the user to either type a value directly or select a value from the list. The term "combo box" is sometimes used to mean "drop-down list". In both Java and .NET, "combo box" is not a synonym for "drop-down list". Definition of "drop down list" is sometimes clarified with terms such as "non-editable combo box" (or something similar) to distinguish it from "combo box". == See also == Autocomplete Drop-down list...

Robert Harvey

No, not that one.

Thomas Owens

You just need to give it autocomplete or autosuggest functionality. To me, autocomplete suggests that it adds suggested text to the box. Autosuggest changes the portion that's drop-down.

Robert Harvey

4:15 PM

It's AutoComplete, then.

Thomas Owens

AutoComplete isn't a UI element, though.

Robert Harvey

It's the one where the list collapses smaller and smaller as you type in more text.

Thomas Owens

It's functionality given to a UI element.

Autocomplete

Autocomplete, or word completion, is a feature in which an application predicts the rest of a word a user is typing. In graphical user interfaces, users can typically press the tab key to accept a suggestion or the down arrow key to accept one of several. Autocomplete speeds up human-computer interactions when it correctly predicts words being typed. It works best in domains with a limited number of possible words (such as in command line interpreters), when some words are much more common (such as when addressing an e-mail), or writing structured and predictable text (as in source code editors...

Robert Harvey

Right, that one.

Thomas Owens

Yeah. The drop down portion is a combo box.

Autocomplete is a function used to populate the combo box with values.

Alternatively:

Search suggest drop-down list

A search suggest drop-down list is a query feature used in computing. A quick system to show the searcher shortcuts, while the query is typed. Before the query has been typed, a drop-down list with the suggested complete search queries, is given as options to select and access. The suggested queries then enable the searcher to complete the required search quickly. It is a form of autocompletion while typing into a query text box, before a detailed search result is entered. Lists can be based on popular searches or other options. The computing science of syntax and algorithms are used to form search...

Robert Harvey

4:16 PM

Sort of. Autocomplete doesn't expect exact matches like a combo box does.

Duga

This kind of topic belongs on Programmers SE, though it will have to be edited and explained better. — user1803551 47 secs ago

user55340

@ThomasOwens just a heads up on a rollback that I did...

user55340

programmers.stackexchange.com/posts/262706/revisions

user55340

It's a "I won't be surprised if this becomes an issue"

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT Thanks.

@RobertHarvey Although I may be being pedantic. I'm not sure. I do like to separate the look and feel from the functionality.

Thomas Owens

4:51 PM

:( We still don't have the new profile that was promised.

durron597

@ThomasOwens It was promised on the Friday before the holiday weekend

I doubt anyone has worked on it between then and now

@ThomasOwens what do you think about breaking the STCI question into two questions - tags for closing / retagging, and tags asking for delete votes only

Or, alternatively, creating a canonical answer "questions in these tags need delete votes"

I don't have 10k; I don't know how big the 10k tools delete page typically gets

I also don't know how often most of the 10k+ around here use up their delete votes every day

user55340

@durron597 delete votes are visible on data.se

durron597

@MichaelT That data is old.

Thomas Owens

@durron597 Too complicated for me to manage.

@durron597 Old? It gets refreshed weekly.

user55340

It's accessible and able to have structured queries.

durron597

5:00 PM

@MichaelT If I have a sede query that returns question ids, is there a way to transform these ids into a link inside the query itself?

user55340

Yes.

user55340

Magic columns data.stackexchange.com/help

durron597

5:17 PM

@MichaelT SEDE doesn't have a field for whether a post is locked?

user41796

One more to kick it out of the reopen review queue

Robert Harvey

Company in Santa Monica is looking for a web developer to work on a project for six weeks
Job Title: Web Developer


Must Haves:
Will be working on a Windows machine!
JavaScript
RequireJS
UnderscoreJS
BackboneJS
MarionetteJS
HTML
CSS
OOPCCS
SCSS
This is a SASS Syntax
Susy
This is a CSS template that was designed to support mobile/tablet
Sitecore CMS

André

5:37 PM

I looked up to see if there was any hidden message, nope.

durron597

STCI delete candidates SEDE query (default tag learning)

@GlenH7 @MichaelT @Snowman will that query ^^^ help you to spend your delete votes every day?

Robert Harvey

I'm out of delete votes for another six hours.

user41796

6:03 PM

@RobertHarvey So StackOverflow is a fraction of what it used to be? :-)

Robert Harvey

I cast a lot of delete votes last night. I think Programmers gave me 30. About half of them resulted in actual deletions.

user55340

@durron597 glance at data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/133171/…

user41796

@durron597 I'll poke later today. I need to finish up a suite of tests showing the quirks between C#'s DateTime and DateTimeOffset

user55340

The not exists in the where is the not ever locked check.

Robert Harvey

The .NET Framework has quirks? Say it ain't so!

user55340

6:16 PM

@SimonAndréForsberg maybe have @Duga poll meta.so too?

user55340

You might need to reword the question a bit, but it may be more accepted at the Programmers site: programmers.stackexchange.com/help/on-topic — Cypher 8 mins ago

durron597

@RobertHarvey so I can't vote to delete this question ... because it is a duplicate of the same exact question by the same exact user

Telastyn

6:31 PM

.net DateTime is still vastly superior to pretty much every other language's datetime.

whatsisname

yes

Telastyn

I have never run out of delete votes or close votes.

whatsisname

every time I have to deal with dates in anything other than c# I rage

Telastyn

In other news, new job; no computer yet.

Robert Harvey

6:56 PM

@Telastyn How long do you think they'll pay you before they actually give you the ability to work? Or are you sweeping the floors?

Duga

This is probably best asked on Programmers.SE; it's a little too opinion-based for these parts, IMHO. — dcsohl 15 secs ago

whatsisname

did you ever indicate where the new jerb was

user55340

At employer^^ if you don't provide the necessary credentials to work in the general office (college transcript), you work as "courtesy patrol" (retrieve carts, help with packages) in the nearby retail store until you have the transcript.

Duga

7:21 PM

This question is better off @ programmers.stackexchange.com. — Mike Clark 29 secs ago

Telastyn

I am harassing existing employees about the codebase so that they are also unable to work.

Robert Harvey

jeorb

Telastyn

Lead software engineer and first non-contractor on a greenfield project.

So I get to semi-hand pick my team.

André

nice :)

gnat

well this is a purely opinion based question...i'm asking what people prefer and why. I was under the impression this was the forum for asking opinion-based software design questions. correct me if that assumption is wrong. — jtmarmon 1 min ago

^^^ wow. Just... wow

whatsisname

7:33 PM

Isn't it nice when you have a bug in your program

then you clean up some other stuff

then seem to have fixed the bug in the process

Telastyn

Unless I'm in c++. Then it just means the bug dug deeper.

Robert Harvey

@gnat While the comment is ill-advised, the question seems squarely on-topic and answerable.

whatsisname

7:50 PM

although it is a super lame question

user55340

@whatsisname that worries me because I didn't nail down the bug first.

user55340

I'd add a ton of unit tests to make sure it doesn't crop up again just as mysteriously.

durron597

0

Q: Disable Chrome suggesting that I search on "How I Met Your Mother" wiki

If I type a question into Chrome search that begins with the word "How", it suggests that I search in the How I Met Your Mother wiki: It's been doing this for years. I have been to that wiki on purpose less than 5 times on purpose in the last two years, and none of those times in 2015. Why do...

google-chrome autocomplete google-search

@gnat I think the good subjective, bad subjective blog post is really misleading.

Ixrec

@durron597 how so?

durron597

> Q&A site for expert programmers interested in subjective discussions on software development

@Ixrec I don't blame anyone for thinking opinion-based questions are on topic here after reading that sentence, or even the entire blog post.

user55340

7:55 PM

It's dated. It is from the period where a distinction in subjective was trying to be made.

Ixrec

wow, I forgot it used to say that

user55340

We've had other blog posts get editor notes.. Well... One.

user55340

5

Q: Update "Introducing Programmers" blog to reflect site scope change

In the Introducing programmers.stackexchange.com blog post, Jeff announces our site with great fanfare. And while I'm all for promoting our site, there are a few problems with that post that I think are creating recurring issues for us. First off, there's a link to the FAQ which now redirects t...

support status-completed site-definition bad-questions low-quality-posts

Ixrec

the distinction it's describing still seems pretty close to correct though

points 4 and 5 need some tweaking but they're not totally wrong

user55340

Give me sufficient thoughts and I'll condense them to a meta post...

Duga

8:05 PM

This might be a question better suited for Programmers Stack Exchange. More theory/project management based questions tend to appear on that site compared to SO. — Jason Evans 49 secs ago

user15026

I have a job :)

7

Ixrec

\o/

durron597

@AshleyNunn Do you have to milk cows for it?

gnat

@MichaelT I for one would love to see "6 requirements" from that blog post be finally explained as applying to questions, not answers. I have a feeling that many askers who read this article believe otherwise, and I even seen some stating this openly in their questions, probably thinking that this magically makes their garbage "great subjective"...

> <some garbage asked and in the end...> 1. Please give answers that explain “why” and “how”. 2. Please give long, not short, answers. 3. When answering, please keep in mind that we’re all here to learn from each other, even if we have different viewpoints or beliefs about the right way to handle what are inherently subjective decisions...

> 4. As an answerer, you should be uniquely qualified to have your opinion based on the specific experiences you had. 5. Your opinions in answers should be backed up with facts and references. 6. My question is more than just mindless social fun...

...yeah sure

Robert Harvey

I have my doubts that the Six Requirements are well-understood by anyone except the person or people who wrote them.

Ixrec

8:17 PM

it seems really difficult to miss the word "questions" considering it appears in bold in all six bullets points and several section headers

André

I never asked anything on P.SE because any whiteboard design questions is just opinion based for me

Ixrec

I've simply never been in a situation where I was designing something on a whiteboard and I got stuck somehow

Robert Harvey

"Primarily Opinion-Based" is intended to eliminate bikeshedding, where everyone contributes their opinion, no matter how small, insignificant or irrelevant. There's nothing wrong with opinions, unless that's all there is.

Ixrec

in part because I almost never use a whiteboard

Robert Harvey

Blackboard, then? Old-school? [likes the smell of chalk dust]

gnat

8:21 PM

@RobertHarvey you got to be kidding. This way works only on Stack Overflow, because it gets special treatment. At other sites bikeshedding flourishes, and you know why

53

Q: At smaller sites, penalize hot questions having 3-4 close votes

At smaller sites (up to 50-100 questions a day average) closing a question takes hours or even days. As an example, this SO question has got 5 close votes in 15 minutes, while its twin at Programmers has been struggling to get 3rd vote for over 10 hours. "Twin" here means, same question has bee...

feature-request vote-to-close hot-questions community-standards

Ixrec

@RobertHarvey it's more that 90% of the "design" I actually do is fairly low level like "how do I rearrange these classes so that we can detangle them all from this dependency" which is usually more about reading the code and taking notes than drawing pretty UML diagrams

Robert Harvey

That's how most of us work. Still, a whiteboard can be useful, particularly when you're discussing data structures.

Ixrec

yeah, we do have a whiteboard that some guys on my team use somewhat regularly

durron597

@gnat bounties on Meta.SE get ignored.

Just a waste of rep

Robert Harvey

OK, I have a job hunt question. Are all my job hunt peeps in here?

Ixrec

8:24 PM

I thought most people gave meta bounties literally to throw away their rep

user55340

0

Q: About that "Good Subjective Bad Subjective" blog post and Programmers

In the continuing effort to clean up our image and the historical pathways that people find Programmers.SE (in the spirit of Update "Introducing Programmers" blog to reflect site scope change ) I would point to Good Subjective, Bad Subjective. This blog post features the text: But software a...

support subjective site-definition bad-questions low-quality-posts

Robert Harvey

Have I talked about Globant in here? They're the guys who interviewed me over Skype from South America.

durron597

14

A: Bounties on meta to attract Stack Exchange employee attention

The short answer is yes, putting a bounty on it increases the chance of us having another look. The same, though, is true of insightful answers, discussions in The Tavern, and questions staying "alive" even when there's no bounty on them. Let me however say a few things about bounties on meta. T...

Robert Harvey

I got a call from them today stating that they were willing to extend a "tentative offer, subject to client interview." Does anyone here know what that means? My spidey sense is tingling.

They're talking about it like it's a done deal, that I did very well in the interview, and that the client interview is just a formality.

user55340

The key thing for a meta.se bounty is the increased activity by other non-se people that gets se attention.

André

8:27 PM

@RobertHarvey that's interesting, I always thought differently. Primarily Opinion-Based always read to me as "This questions leads to primarily anecdotal, non verifiable, answers or "Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man" and is not what we want here"

Robert Harvey

Yes, that's what I mean.

Not all design questions are like that.

Ixrec

@André @RobertHarvey Both of your descriptions sound like the same thing to me

André

@RobertHarvey Just the design questions I think of then :)

Robert Harvey

Chartreuse or mauve?

globant.com

Duga

@user1803551 this kind of questions is a very poor fit for Programmers - it would be quickly voted down and closed over there, see meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/6483/… Recommended reading: What goes on Programmers.SE? A guide for Stack Overflow — gnat 46 secs ago

user15026

8:31 PM

@durron597 laughs nope

user55340

@André at the risk of self promotion and serial voting... Check out the questions I've answered.

André

@MichaelT haha okay

Ixrec

programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/285017/…

is anyone else totally unable to understand what the example in this question is trying to demonstrate? or am I just too big of a noob at Haskell?

gnat

Feb 14 '14 at 20:16, by gnat

@GlenH7 I am pessimistic only about Shog. Other than that, I feel all right. I have a plan and strategy (wider education of the community), and I have figured the right guerilla. My only problem is probably too much MSO-poo (repz on bounties) - I was planning to spent it in like 2 months but now it looks like I will have to run that bounties series for 3-4 months. Now, not that I complain :)

^^^ bounties -> views -> education

André

@Ixrec I read as recursive Fibonacci function

gnat

8:34 PM

I don't expect anything else

Robert Harvey

@Ixrec Oooohhh, math.

Ixrec

@André it does sorta look like that, but I can't see a connection between that and any of the words in his question

user55340

@André don't look too hard. It's Haskell. You would start talking like @JimmyHoffa about implementing monads in your code.

André

@Ixrec I'm totally lost by his question, I'm assuming if that he wants to optimize/write in a different way, asking if the proposed code work

Ixrec

ok

André

8:37 PM

Also.. monads

Ixrec

I'm inclined to CV this as unclear so I wanted to make sure it wasn't just me derping

user55340

And if you had delete votes, you'd need to do delete vote therapy to cleanse your mind of the pure thoughts.

Ixrec

monads were actually a lot simpler and easier to understand than I was expecting

durron597

@gnat You can get high views from bounties only 50 at a time, it doesn't need to be 400

user55340

Dec 11 '13 at 20:04, by Yannis Rizos

@psr I tried Haskell once. You might remember it, it was the day ~500 ProgSE questions went the way of the dodo (had to channel my rage somewhere...)

user55340

8:41 PM

@durron597 it doubles each time.

durron597

@MichaelT you have to double it each time?

user55340

50 the first. 100 the second time...

gnat

@durron597 system doesn't allow repeated 50 (and I think this is a correct design). Repeated bounty has to be 2x more than prior, up to 400: 50 -> 100 -> 200 -> 400...

durron597

@gnat That's so stupid.

I don't think it's a correct design.

user55340

It's to keep people on so from constantly placing 50 time and time again.

durron597

8:44 PM

@MichaelT I don't see why that is a problem.

gnat

@durron597 that's the way to prevent abuse. At 50, more or less reasonable question gets enough upvotes to recover "invested points". We don't want perma-bountied questions, do we?

durron597

@gnat Questions can only be permanently bountied by people that have enough rep to dump 50 once a week

Ixrec

am I the only one who feels bounties don't seem to serve much of a purpose? or are they genuinely useful over on SO?

user55340

Bounties prevent closure.

durron597

@MichaelT Only 78,000 people even have 1000 rep on StackOverflow

user55340

8:46 PM

@Ixrec they move your question from a list of 9.5M to 400.

durron597

that would be gone in less than 6 months.

Ixrec

@MichaelT but who looks at that list of 400?

user55340

Quite a few rep hunters.

gnat

@durron597 not exactly. Bounty at a non-crappy question brings 20-30 points, just by the fact of increased attention (similar to how hot questions get their crazy score). If bounty is at 50, one needs to get just 20-30 points to recover, one can get it in a week simply by editing, not to mention questions / answers

...and don't forget that bounty can be used not only by askers but also by answerers. You have top answer in a question, like, accepted, at score 50-100. You invest 100 (for questions you answered, minimum is 100, not 50), and chances are good, you'll get 'em back, plus your answer gets even higher score. Non-doubling bounties would be really easy to game / abuse

Duga

And this belongs to programming-related legal issues that are key interest to programmers. I am voting to keep it open. — tinlyx 15 secs ago

enderland

8:59 PM

bounties normally attract lower quality answers though

gnat

@enderland this is important only for those looking for their questions to be answered. Since I don't expect my MSE concerns to be authoritatively addressed, I don't care. My MSE bounties are solely after eyeballs

enderland

Q/A is such a screwed up format for meta.se

gnat

62

Q: What is a meta for?

A guest at my house over the weekend stood puzzled next to my driveway. "What is that for?" she asked, pointing to a framework of 2x4s and hardware cloth perched on an old tire amid piles of sand. "Sifter." I said. "For what?" "For sifting gravel." "Why?" "To line walking paths, such as the one y...

discussion meta new-users help-center

user20683

9:17 PM

This song plays in my head when I see poorly asked homework dumps:

user20683

Nightwish Yours is an empty hope OFFICIAL

►

Fabián Heredia Montiel

9:38 PM

Hey Ixrec, give me a second while I reorder my thoughts on the FP question.

Ixrec

np

I might be full-screening something so ping me with an @Ixrec when you're done

Fabián Heredia Montiel

Ok, will do thanks C:

Duga

stackoverflow.com/questions/30468354/…

user20683

9:55 PM

@Duga ?

user55340

Comment was likely deleted between Ali call and one box. Poke @RobertHarvey to find out if this was the case.

user55340

... Ohh. Thoughts hitting hard. How to do a Builder in an abstract class.

Fabián Heredia Montiel

@Ixrec programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/285017/… is this more understandable?

Ixrec

@FabiánHerediaMontiel yep, I completely understand now; I have retracted my close vote, upvoted the question and deleted my now-outdated comment

Fabián Heredia Montiel

Thanks for the feedback Ixrec C:

Ixrec

10:04 PM

I have a sneaking suspicion that the lazy one-line answer to your question is "try learning Mathematica", but we'll see what people smarter than me come up with

user20683

@Ixrec the answer is a lazy one liner in Haskell

user20683

like seriously

Ixrec

you mean writing a function that takes start/end and produces the sum directly?

Fabián Heredia Montiel

xD I don't know I am just learning FP/Haskell, would love to be proven near sighted.

Yep, but basically evaluating another function itself.

user20683

like you'd need to hard code because you're probably not at monads yet

Fabián Heredia Montiel

10:07 PM

Nope ;_;

user20683

Haskell's default data structure is a lazy infinite list

user20683

Monads aren't that bad

Fabián Heredia Montiel

will get to them, still learning the basics. C:

Ixrec

I think his question is about if you could skip the actual summation process by knowing that the list is a range from x to y and knowing there's a shortcut for that

I don't see how monads would enable that

user20683

@Ixrec you'd need an I/O monad to have a universal input

user20683

10:08 PM

for whatever n is

user114359

@durron597 My biggest issue with delete votes is finding questions I have not already voted on. Seems that a lot of the ones in the "tools" page I already voted on, but there is no indication.

user20683

@Snowman my biggest issue is finding a spider crawling up my bare leg just now

user20683

it has been flicked across the room

user20683

anyway, haskell

user20683

as I recall, a list comprehension will do ya just fine

user20683

10:10 PM

the Haskell and the Python look almost the same

Fabián Heredia Montiel

Ok, I added this comment: This is probably an XY Problem since I already know I could create a new function that knows this formula. But! this is more in the vain on the possibility and merit of sum being intelligent about what it evaluates and how.

user20683

@FabiánHerediaMontiel what resources are you using to learn Haskell?

user55340

@Snowman there are data.se queries that might expose you to others.

durron597

@Snowman Does the query pull up questions that the 10k tools don't for you?

Ixrec

and there goes my last close vote

Fabián Heredia Montiel

10:14 PM

A mixture of learn yourself haskell for some greater good, ghci + tdd - tests + project euler

user55340

10k only show last N votes and posts with the most votes that got a vote in the last N days.

user114359

@durron597 I haven't cross-checked

user20683

@FabiánHerediaMontiel real world haskell might be a better option

Fabián Heredia Montiel

Thanks, will try to get myself a copy. C:

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT Someone posted a "belongs on Programmers" comment, but changed his mind and deleted it within the same minute.

user55340

10:15 PM

Largest N is 30. So you can't find close votes on posts from last month at all.

user20683

or that page at Walla Walla on "how to learn Haskell"

user20683

@FabiánHerediaMontiel it's free online as html

user20683

the RWH

user55340

Btw, @WorldEngineer or @ThomasOwens could you chime in on that meta post...

Fabián Heredia Montiel

Nice, so Learn yourself haskell and Real World Haskell are free online?! I am seeing a pattern here with Haskell books.

Robert Harvey

10:16 PM

If you can't sell it, give it away for free.

user55340

@Brendan over half the answers to it gave single or two sentence answers answers to the sub questions. That is not high quality. People are up voting the popular answers rather than down voting the poor ones. I am certain that if it was still open it would easily have a dozen answers with diminishing quality. This is not what we want on the site. It may have been manageable if people were voting based on the quality instead of the popularity - they aren't. Thus it is closed. Until the community is willing to show it will curate and moderate the question and answers, it gets closed. — MichaelT 6 mins ago

user20683

@FabiánHerediaMontiel not totally but yes, Haskell's academic nature makes it fairly easy find tutorials

user20683

@RobertHarvey both of them are available for about $50 in dead tree

user20683

Understanding the Haskell tutorials on the other hand...is it's own special problem

user20683

@JimmyHoffa has reasonable experience with coming from a C# background and no formalpost secondary education, might pick his brain when he's around

user55340

10:19 PM

And there is Joe, might be more active once school gets out.

Fabián Heredia Montiel

@Ixrec @WorldEngineer just FYI, an answer came in an apparently the answer is Macros. ( programmers.stackexchange.com/a/285029/34217 )

Robert Harvey

@WorldEngineer Nice song, but I think I prefer this one

user55340

Jozefg

user55340

jozefg, United States

8.5k 2 29 45

programming-languages haskell functional-programming type-systems language-design java lisp

user20683

@MichaelT him and Jon Purdy if they are around

user20683

10:21 PM

Jon Purdy is the only site user I know of who actually has coded in Haskell on a professional basis

user55340

Not sure how much brain melting @amon has experienced with Haskell.

Ixrec

@WorldEngineer I found learnyouahaskell fairly easy to follow as long as I took it slowly, but then I have read things like the SICP and Clojure tutorials so a significant chunk of it was familiar

user20683

@Ixrec I started with Haskell, I eventually got bored.

Robert Harvey

I just heard from a subcontractor who says he pays hourly based on net. So a quote for $40/hr would actually be $40 + ~$20 per hour to cover taxes. Does this sound right?

Fabián Heredia Montiel

@WorldEngineer got bored and moved to something more interesting?

user20683

10:24 PM

@RobertHarvey something like that

user20683

@FabiánHerediaMontiel mostly more useful

whatsisname

yes though I wouldn't expect them to say that up front

Robert Harvey

That one is a six month stint in the bay area.

Fabián Heredia Montiel

@RobertHarvey mexican/still studying/haven't been to many interviews. But isn't it easier to just quote on the ~$60/hr and let the potential hiree determine for thyselves $actual + $taxes ? My only complaint is that he seems to take responsibility for everything, including others' taxes.

whatsisname

err wait

Robert Harvey

10:29 PM

There's some legal intricacies that have changed about hiring in the past few years. Most subcontractors now prefer to put you in W2 status, even though it costs them benefits, 401K, health care and who knows what else. I'm not quite sure why.

whatsisname

I thought you said "charged"

paying is a different story

user20683

@RobertHarvey because people figured out that they are technically employees and sued the hell out of them

user20683

there's a whole branch of the ambulance chasing industry built around that

Robert Harvey

Actually, I think Obamacare is a big reason.

user20683

@RobertHarvey this too

Fabián Heredia Montiel

10:31 PM

I am surprised that no one said "because it is the right thing to do"

user20683

@FabiánHerediaMontiel welcome to America

Robert Harvey

As an Independent Contractor, you're supposed to be... independent. That means you make decisions about when you do the work, the nature of the work, how it is to be accomplished. You supply your own equipment, pay your own taxes. The contracting company has very little control over you (in theory).

Fabián Heredia Montiel

In practice it was abused to avoid paying benefits?

Robert Harvey

Well, the going rate for contractors is supposed to be 30% to 60% higher than an employee.

Essentially, you're a business owner.

Fabián Heredia Montiel

I thought normally freelancers / contractors would be more expensive than employee + benefits. Plus the whole IP/copyright ownership thing.

user20683

10:34 PM

@FabiánHerediaMontiel look up "work for hire"

whatsisname

freelancers and contractors are usually more expensive because they are supposed to be more skilled

or, because they are only needed for a very short amount of time

Fabián Heredia Montiel

ok, that makes sense, mostly.

So, I guess contracting instead of hiring then depended on companies convincing employees to work as contractors and them not knowing to charge more?

Robert Harvey

It has more to do with the short time frame aspect.

Contract the highly-skilled worker to put something in place in a six month to one year timeframe, and that's it.

user20683

my father contracted for SGI (early graphics specialist) as a Sys admin

user20683

typically by project

user20683

10:37 PM

then he went off the deep end and became an attempted massage therapist

Fabián Heredia Montiel

Hey, will come back later and I will be sure to read a bit on diff contractor employee

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