The Whiteboard

6:06 PM

@JimmyHoffa Am interested in your alternative.

user41796

@aliteralmind - FWIW, I flagged your question earlier for protection based upon the chat transcript. You're safe(r) to drop a link on reddit now with your question.

Jimmy Hoffa

6:21 PM

@aliteralmind well normally I would put a functional indirection, but after looking again the meat of your problem is - for some reason - you're using a static class as the builder; is there purpose in that class being static?

I'm a fan of composition over inheritance - I would likely extend the class by creating a new class wherein that class was simply a member. But then looking again and uncrossing my eyes to see what you're doing, I think that builder pattern is not really good to use at all.

Fluency is useful when you want to do multiple things in a single concise declarative line, but builders exist because you can't do things all at once, if you can then you just put all the values on the constructor and make it one constructor call, if you can't then fluency gets you nothing so you should just set the properties individually on some complex object you pass to the constructor

In the past I've used a function variable that can be wrapped so extending classes can hand out the creational requirement for the super-class without requiring the extending class to have the logic. But for your purpose you don't even need that, and further that pattern really isn't one that particular approach to creating an object is complexity with nearly no benefit

user41796

@aliteralmind - here's the text from the answer that was deleted. I don't know why the owner self-deleted their answer, but such is life.

Jimmy Hoffa

You just need public Configuration(int age, string name, string favColor) { ... if you have all the values at once, if you get the values at varying times so you want to partially construct it but don't want to allow it to be invalidly constructed, you create a public class ConfigurationSettings { public int Age; public string Name; public string FavColor; } and then the configuration constructer is public Configuration(ConfigurationSettings settings) { ...

user41796

I like this approach. It seems like a good pattern in cases where you would actually benefit from being able to have multiple Fieldable implementations. (By the way, if you made UserConfig implement fieldable, you would effectively get a copy constructor for free.)

It does impose more "boilerplate" than the inner class approach, so in the typical situation it might be overkill.

Of the three advantages you state:

decoupling the builder from its enclosing class, eliminating a circular dependency,

user41796

^^^^ 10k link for attribution: programmers.stackexchange.com/a/228943/53019

Jimmy Hoffa

6:42 PM

@GlenH7 is my analysis rational to your eyes?

@aliteralmind I don't mean to totally knock what you're doing there or anything, it just doesn't stand up to the sniff test on the ROI for the amount of complexity (for me). I'm one of few developers who's more than happy to implement complex code and flout the KISS rules when that complexity has value, I just think the value is too small for what you get with that pattern.

Now I would start saying otherwise if you were using the pattern to do some validation so the builder did validation before construction that may make some sense, but then you're wading into validation approaches, of which there are many, and the complex-object-as-constructor-parameter way is a simple one which let's you validate on property setting before object construction, or place the validation logic in a Validate() method on the complex object that the constructor simply calls

But validation approaches are complex and varied and a much broader conversation

user41796

@JimmyHoffa They are sound concerns; yes. I haven't done enough work that needed to use that type of a pattern to really weigh in. I have some experience in related arenas, but nothing that sticks out. So for once, I've tried to be quiet.

user41796

Your points on inheritance vs. composition are sound and idiomatic Java doesn't mind multiple . de-references, iirc.

user41796

But the decoupling that the suggested pattern brings about is of value as well. (as per rucamzu's comments and Martijn's reaction)

user41796

6:57 PM

and my recollection of the transcript is that @aliteralmind is looking for this type of critique

Jimmy Hoffa

Realistically, the question belongs on codereview

user41796

Nah, it's just fine where it is

user41796

There's a legitimate question in there, specifically point 2 asked in the main post.

Jimmy Hoffa

i think he'd get better answers there though

user41796

I haven't seen CR as really digging into the design of something like that. That seems more to like Prog's purview.

user41796

7:05 PM

And it's okay to be a little jealous / protective of your site. Keep the good stuff; you don't need to migrate it all away

user41796

I can't think of a good way to bump that one on to the collider though. That would be an excellent way to manipulate the collider for a good reason.

user55340

(there was a bit of a debate on this last night too... and I can see it going either way)

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Nah I'm just thinking... I really think it would get better answers there. The people who troll that site explicitly like reviewing code of which he has a good bit of. If he didn't have the code - yes we give better answers then definitely

user55340

Thus, colliding it to get their eyeballs here

user55340

There's also the question of the blog post... and doing it there too wouldn't be a bad thing either.

user55340

7:09 PM

You should really blog about this somewhere if you haven't already, nice piece of algorithm design! I'm off sharing it now :-). — Martijn Verburg 9 hours ago

aliteralmind

@JimmyHoffa I agree with both you and the deleted-my-own-answer-poster both suggest, that it's overkill, when there is only a small amount fields, to force the use of three classes for every ToBeBuilt class (ToBeBuilt, Fieldable, Builder).

However, with lots of fields, passing each individually to the constructor, and having to maintain those lists in both the constructor and in the builder's build() function, is unmaintainable. Here is a pastebin of some of the Fieldables in my library: http://pastebin.com/embed_js.php?i=cXRuHw3m There is no way I could manage each of these individual pa…

user41796

@aliteralmind - you saw my copy & paste of the deleted answer above, correct?

aliteralmind

@GlenH7 Yup. "It does impose more 'boilerplate' than the inner class approach, so in the typical situation it might be overkill."

user41796

okay, just wanted to make sure you saw it

user41796

back to thinking about the collider - @JimmyHoffa do you think your comments could be composed into an answer as a countering opinion?

user41796

7:15 PM

I would want to check with some mods first, but we could vote to undelete the 2nd answer on the question. It is a valid counter-point to the original question.

user41796

7:31 PM

@MichaelT - based upon today's earlier conversation. What are your thoughts on this one? To delete or not to delete? The up voted answers will prevent roomba from kicking in, and the question is an off-topic poll. Is 9 days long enough for them to have opened a meta question?

user55340

Its a year old. There's been more than enough time.

user55340

> closed as not constructive by MichaelT, Jim G., Walter, Yusubov, FrustratedWithFormsDesigner Feb 5 '13 at 4:09

user41796

@MichaelT What year is it again?

user41796

<sigh>

user55340

14

user55340

7:33 PM

And if you could get walter back to help close things as not constructive...

user41796

And just when did that happen?!?! :-)

user41796

Last seen Feb 11. But his activity is very bursty. Likely on a busy project.

user55340

But he hasn't closed things in a LONG time.

user55340

A story that makes sense would be 'active on a project for 2 months' and then kind of got rid of the addiction to P.SE. Still visits and reads, but not active in reviews as before.

user41796

Yusubuv has almost fallen off the face of the site too. Very little activity from him lately.

user55340

7:36 PM

But going back to that --- yes, delete away. Its been a year, they've had time to complain for quite some time.

user55340

Oh, wait, I had an answer in there? Undelete! Unfair mods! Evil deleters!

user41796

@MichaelT I shouldn't have asked and should have looked at the year more closely. Just saw the Feb 5 and skipped the rest.

user55340

Heh.

user55340

(it didn't have any upvotes on it so only counted for tag questions asked in... web-development and cross-platform... meh. If it was random I would have been annoyed because I do want that tag badge)

Jimmy Hoffa

@aliteralmind See when a constructor (or any method) would take too many parameters, that's a classic example of either the method/constructor/class needing to be broken down (sometimes) or just having a bunch of values that are relevant together and should have a cohesive class created as a DTO with that information (often)

user41796

7:40 PM

@MichaelT You need a lot more answers on those tags then. IIRC, it's 20 separate posts before you can land the badge.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa c2.com/cgi/wiki?TooManyParameters

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Yeah, I was thinking of rep-whoring it. Granted it's a preference thing and my response is opinion but I could fill it out with the logical argument I can put together as well as possible. It's locked though I understand

user41796

You'd have a programming-languages badge after 5 more answers

user41796

@JimmyHoffa The pattern Q? No, just protected.

user55340

Random and Random numbers are 7 each.

user41796

7:41 PM

It was proactively protected in knowledge of a pending reddit

gnat

@GlenH7 wrt stickiness, all studies I saw so far suggest that hot questions don't make users stick. Most of this knowledge comes from Workplace, but at Programmers, there is some evidence as well. Let's look at Quantcast first...

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Rep-whore away.

gnat

TWP mod calls it flash in the pan, here's his amalysis:

4

A: Can we track the positive effects of a popular question?

Ever heard the phrase "a flash in the pan"? According to my mom, my grandfather and grandmother allegedly used this phrase to talk about Elvis Presley when he made his first break. The idea was that he would have a brief "flash" of popularity and then evaporate into nothingness; he wouldn't even...

user55340

@gnat while we've got pictures of that, there's views and then there's voters... and I'd really like to get the numbers that show that from Shog.

user55340

We can show him pictures that have it... but I think that if he generates the data that we use to show this it will have more sticking power... in part because he could use the same analysis on other questions on his own then.

user41796

7:43 PM

@MichaelT agreed. And his data will be more granular

gnat

@MichaelT most recent numbers, graphs and stuff I've seen are in Ben's Query section in Anatomy of The Hot Question, jmac summed it up as ...These questions do not seem to bring long-term users with good contribution to the community.

34

Q: The Anatomy of a Hot Question

Here is the traffic since The Workplace was created: These are the three questions that caused those huge spikes in traffic: Is it rude to leave an interview early if you have already made your decision? How should I deal with an employee who has slept with my wife? What is a 'friendly' ...

user55340

I think that we're fairly agreed that this is buzzfeed like behavior we're seeing.

user41796

@gnat - I don't mean to be completely contrarian, but that Quantcast graph looks to have more volume to the right of the first hot question that's identified

user41796

Not a lot by any means, but the underlying area looks more full

user41796

that's stickiness

user55340

7:47 PM

There's the bow-tie type charts that I'm thinking of. I want to get information on everyone who was active on the question and the information before and after that activity.

gnat

also, let's not forget famous MSO post by Yannis, about Programmers history. Quantcast graph he shows resembles a lot one at Workplace. And, I think, these graphs however simple, pretty good reflect whether there is stickiness or not. We may count and dissect votes and posts until hell freezes over, but the fact that visits return back instead of growing, suggests that the effect is negligible...

43

A: How can I encourage Stack Overflow to rein in the 'subjective' vigilantes?

tl;dr We already tried supporting those questions, we even gave them their own site. Sadly, it didn't work out. C'est la vie. 3 years ago, a Stack Exchange site called Not Programming Related came out of Area51, the Stack Exchange staging zone. NPR was supposed to be a site where questions t...

user41796

To put a strawman hierarchy of contribution out there:
passive eyeballs
eyeballs leading to clicks (up | down votes)
questions asked (preferably quality ones)
answers provided (again, preferably quality ones)

user55340

I think you're preaching to the choir here... we agree and believe this to be true... but we need to persuade the skeptic.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT I think you mistake apathy for skepticism. SO == Important, We != SO, therefore implicitly....

user55340

@GlenH7 I'd go with a boxed reputation gained (excluding association bonus) - I think that answers may be enough info to deanonomize people.

user41796

7:49 PM

@JimmyHoffa to a degree yes, but SE needs the additional sites in order to keep the enterprise growing.

user55340

I don't think it matters too much if its answers they're contributing or questions - they're part of the community either way if they are active.

Jimmy Hoffa

That's a bit of an over-simplification but it is a part of the mental calculus playing into it. That said I do think it's apathy not skepticism, though not towards our site nearly as much as just apathy towards the consequences of the issue

user41796

@MichaelT absolutely agree - and I'm not suggesting we ask for anything that could dox folk. But I'm trying to lay out an argument for value provided by stickiness.

user41796

And we non-SE employees shouldn't have access to all the data because of privacy concerns

user41796

but if we can agree that hot questions lead to more people landing somewhere on that strawman hierarchy, then there is value from the hot questions

user41796

7:51 PM

And then we can argue benefit vs. cost of the stickiness from hot questions vs. the reputation damage they can do

user55340

(I still wonder how much it would take to get an esoteric MathOverflow question way up on the top of the hot and see if they fuss about it)

user41796

@MichaelT I'm sure we can find a troll to come up with a good enough question... :-D

user55340

Don't need to troll...

gnat

@GlenH7 yup there is a minor effect, agree. It looks too minor and honestly, one can argue that it's mostly due to lemmings who try to copycat prior success by asking crappy questions and giving crappy answers. IIRC Code Golf meta has complaints about second wave of "troll" questions that were just bland low quality attempts to repeat original one....

... These low quality questions and answers likely somewhat increased views at Code Golf, but I somehow doubt that they really wanted shit of that kind to stick...

user41796

I know, I know. But it is one of the sites he frequents.

gnat

7:53 PM

-4

Q: Delete all code-trolling questions

The code-trolling tag has brought nothing but poorly conceived "challenges" to this site and the new users it has brought are posting poor knock-offs of an already poor idea. The quality of questions has fallen dramatically and the good questions that pop-up amidst the morass of rubbish get burie...

discussion

user55340

17

Q: Consequences of NP=PSPACE

What would be the nasty consequences of NP=PSPACE? I am surprised I did not found anything on this, given that these classes are among the most famous ones. In particular, would it have any consequences on the lower classes?

cc.complexity-theory complexity-classes conditional-results

user55340

13

Q: Smallest non-zero eigenvalue of a (0,1) matrix

What's the smallest absolute value possible of a non-zero eigenvalue of an $n$ by $n$ square matrix whose entries are either $0$ or $1$ (all operations are over $\mathbb{R}$)? I would be interested in estimates or bounds as I imagine an exact answer is tricky. I asked this question previously a...

linear-algebra

user55340

Those two are already on the hot network questions, just not that far up there

user41796

@gnat Ah, that's arguing the final point. Does the benefit of the stickiness outweigh the damage done. We can't get to that discussion until we know the benefit of the stickiness.

user55340

We've got a good idea at the cost. But we're trying to persuade people who think there's value in it.

gnat

7:56 PM

46

Q: Extend the new Hot Questions sidebar

I really like the new sidebar. With the new top bar eliminating the "Hot Questions" area there, I think this is the perfect place for it. One-click access to time-wasting questions about topics I may or may not have an interest in. Seriously, it's a procrastinator's dream come true. The only sug...

feature-request status-completed user-interface hot-questions homepage

ain't going to be easy

user41796

@gnat no, but that's why stickiness has to be quantified first

user55340

Nope. But if we can get him to generate the numbers that show the non-benefit...

user41796

If this is a game of chess, then this is the equivalent of looking 4 to 5 moves ahead and figuring out "what next."

user55340

It may be that it does show that 1% of the people who vote on the question or its answers show an increased participation on the site... we want to know that.

aliteralmind

Well, perhaps the classes could be broken down, but they work well for me as is (I don't mean the pattern, I mean the specific classes taking advantage of blind builders), so for the time being at least, they're not going to change. As far as the pattern, building the ToBeBuilt class by explicitly passing in the individual fields to the constructor would be just as blind as using the Fieldable, given this maintainability issue.

gnat

7:59 PM

@MichaelT that more-hot question has easily got 35 upvotes in 3 days, without any bounties (meta.stackoverflow.com/posts/209775/timeline). Compare that to 50 votes squeezed into "discard unpopular answers" questions, in like 3 months and 9 bounties

52

Q: In “network hot” questions formula, discard answers when voting evidence indicates that these are not good data points

TL;DR When votes of 20... 30... 100 users clearly indicate that only one or two answers are popular, it does not make sense to pretend that other answers are popular too. In current version of “network hot” questions formula (AnswerCount * Qscore) *, all answers up to 10 are assumed to equally...

feature-request status-declined voting stackexchange-button hot-questions

aliteralmind

The whole point of the Fieldable interface and creating the blind builder pattern to begin with, is for being used in classes that may be potentially extended and sub-extended many times, implying that passing individual parameters are not as desirable as using the Fieldable.

@JimmyHoffa Glad to get your insight.

Jimmy Hoffa

@aliteralmind I wasn't suggesting you break down your classes or methods, just saying that's sometimes a solution, but more often a good solution is recognizing cohesive DTOs to be built from those parameters which the constructor can take instead of the numerous parameters. By all means if you're done implementing that and like it and it works stick with it, though in the future I would think twice about re-implementing all that ceremony for a similar situation

If a constructor takes a complex object in it's constructor, there's no reason not to just let inheritors inherit from it and take those complex objects (or a complex objects with them in it) in their constructor

@aliteralmind and the point of the fieldable interface is to support a pattern - the approach isn't necessarily bad for supporting that pattern - my qualm is with the patterns value in itself

gnat

@GlenH7 even if we quantify stickiness at zero, how could it help. Shog believes purpose of hot list is entertainment (and I tend to agree), zero stickiness means nothing in this context...

yesterday, by gnat

@GlenH7 well, entertainment, as suggested by Shog, makes a pretty valid reason to me, especially taking into account that between 2008 and 2011 this feature apparently did no harm. Maybe, I dunno, maybe it was better to not introduce it back then, but we can't rollback the history. Also note that recent attempt to silently remove it during collider rework led to negative reaction from users...

Jimmy Hoffa

also I don't understand why you made that class static? Java's static must behave different than C#'s static, because that would be terribly un-threadsafe in C# to my knowledge

gnat

5

A: What is the Goal of "Hot Network Questions"?

I actually have a slightly different opinion of what "hot" questions are good for: entertainment. When I'm bored, tired of doing actual work or waiting for something to finish running, they're almost always good for a quick - and ideally informative - diversion. This is what I've always used the ...

Jimmy Hoffa

8:08 PM

@gnat is a static inner class not a single-instance-per-process class in Java?

gnat

@JimmyHoffa nope

Jimmy Hoffa

weird

user41796

@gnat zero stickiness == no benefit other than entertainment. Weigh no benefit against damage to site reputation, and you have a compelling argument for change

user41796

Entertainment is only a compelling benefit when it causes no harm.

user55340

If it is purely for entertainment, then one could have a strong argument in favor of making the association bonus not count for allowing upvotes - which do cause problems on the site.

aliteralmind

8:10 PM

@JimmyHoffa I'm not clear on what you are suggesting as an alternative builder pattern. I'm guessing that, at least, we agree that decoupling the builder and the ToBeBuilt is the primary goal.

user41796

That's a great point as well

Jimmy Hoffa

@aliteralmind I'm suggesting not to use a builder pattern as such because it lacks value comparatively with the amount of complexity and ceremony necessary.

2 hours ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

You just need public Configuration(int age, string name, string favColor) { ... if you have all the values at once, if you get the values at varying times so you want to partially construct it but don't want to allow it to be invalidly constructed, you create a public class ConfigurationSettings { public int Age; public string Name; public string FavColor; } and then the configuration constructer is public Configuration(ConfigurationSettings settings) { ...

@aliteralmind that's the crux of how I think it should be done instead --^

user55340

Ok, so it gets a bunch of views and someone gets a popular question badge. Great - not a problem. The problem occurs when someone through popularity of the question and association votes gets an extra 1000 rep just from that question because of its hotness, despite it not being a good question for the site.

gnat

@GlenH7 but Shog believes the reputation of sites that suffer is their fault, haven't you read...

in The Water Cooler, 5 hours ago, by gnat

> ...Guess what: if your site is full of crappy questions, your site sucks - even if they're not highly-ranked by your own users, folks are finding them via Google, and that's where the vast majority of your readers are coming from. You can work to fix that - as painful as that process is - or you can bury your head in the sand and blame it on all of those stupid people from elsewhere...

aliteralmind

@JimmyHoffa So you are arguing against the builder entirely.

user41796

8:12 PM

@gnat Now you're just being pessimistic. :-)

aliteralmind

The whole concept of a builder.

Jimmy Hoffa

@aliteralmind absolutely

@aliteralmind Though if you absolutely want to maintain the builder pattern, just take your original, non-static the inner class and you can make the inheriting class have an inner class that inherits from that nested class and it will just have additional properties/methods in the same way the sub-class does

user55340

If we can quantitatively demonstrate that the people who vote on the question have no helpful impact on the site, we've got a good backing for changes. But we really need those numbers to convince them.

aliteralmind

Ah. Well.

Jimmy Hoffa

If you read my critique above, I suggest actually not even sub-classing in the vast majority of scenarios where people do it, composition is oft preferable

gnat

8:13 PM

my personal problem with hot questions is they cost me repz spent (actually wasted because of sympathetic lemmings) on downvoting crappy answers. Other than that, I wouldn't mind :)

19

Q: Answers quality in hot questions

For few recent months, I've got a habit of downvoting answers which quality doesn't look OK to me. These probably can be generally described as low effort and/or these lacking relevance to question asked. Opinionated slogans, claims that are not backed up by appropriate references or by ...

discussion answer-quality hot-questions

user41796

@gnat - I understand the concern and aggravation. It's been a long haul getting to the point of recognizing there may be something wrong with the collider. But I'm also trying to find avenues through the maze in order to present the evidence to prove something is wrong.

Jimmy Hoffa

@aliteralmind did I just dismiss myself in your mind as an ign'ant who doesn't know the value of design patterns and modern design approaches? heh

user41796

@gnat speaking of which, we really do need to get you to 20k on Progs so we can more easily VTD crap answers.

aliteralmind

I do understand composition-over-inheritance. No, not at all. You are a very smart ign'ant, whose opinion I value very highly before disregarding it entirely :)

user41796

@aliteralmind Wait until he starts talking all crazy about Haskell. Don't say you haven't been warned.

aliteralmind

8:16 PM

@JimmyHoffa Honestly glad for the debate. Gotta go. Up-vote and favorite the question and answer despite our complete disagreement :)

gnat

@GlenH7 I am pessimistic only about Shog. Other than that, I feel all right. I have a plan and strategy (wider education of the community), and I have figured the right guerilla. My only problem is probably too much MSO-poo (repz on bounties) - I was planning to spent it in like 2 months but now it looks like I will have to run that bounties series for 3-4 months. Now, not that I complain :)

user55340

@aliteralmind just mute him when he says "monad"... its for the best.

3

Jimmy Hoffa

@gnat can inner classes in Java not be non-static?

user41796

@gnat And it may be time to re-evaluate tactics to find a new approach.

user55340

Feb 2 at 20:56, by Jimmy Hoffa

not like he was suggesting a hylomorphism or zygohisticprepromorphism

user41796

8:18 PM

And don't dismiss Shog as an ally in this investigation. He was pretty quick to turn out statistics for Michael's request. I realize he doesn't currently see things from your point of view, but that doesn't mean he will never see things that way.

gnat

@GlenH7 I already considered that, ain't gonna work. With my flagging mastery, I can convince mod to remove answer or protect question, but, as I learned, this is just not enough. Hot list pressure and risk are permanent (thanks to formula) and I ain't gonna keep on 24x7 watch just as a workaround to its wrong design...

@Shog9 is my point so hard to understand? To start with, I am speaking about boring / useless answers, not about wrong ones. And I am not talking about question being boring here, but about hotness formula that stuffs these answers in as if these indicate popularity. And no, 20K are useless here because the way how broken formula rapes the sites, would require three 20Kers to keep 24x7 watch over every bit of garbage brought in from hot list lemmings — gnat Feb 9 at 19:13

user41796

@gnat that also goes back to the 2 items to request: More close votes on the site and the ability to protect a question if it hits the hot question list.

gnat

@JimmyHoffa yes inner classes in Java can be non-static. And by the way I strongly recommend against using these, as these are typically a source of awful, subtle bugs. If memory serves, there are a few niche, rare, legitimate uses, but unless you are 200% certain, go static

-2

A: Problem with "instanceof" with generic outer class

recalling painful experience chasing subtle bugs related to named non-static inner classes, I just couldn't resist to see what happens if I make 'em static... class OuterClass<T> { static class BaseClass { } static class SubClass extends BaseClass { } public void test(BaseClass my...

user41796

No single item will give us all of the tools we need to control the damage the questions can cause. But the combination of the items will.

gnat

don't pay attention to answer score, it simply attracts revenge downvotes

@GlenH7 Shog granted immediate protection right to Workplacers...

in The Water Cooler, Jan 21 at 0:10, by jmac

Hey guys, for your reference, if we get slammed by hot questions again in the future and start racking up bad answers, Shog has enabled question protection by trusted users without having to wait 24 hours just for TWP. With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility, so don't abuse it or he'll revoke it.

Jimmy Hoffa

8:27 PM

@gnat Can you inherit from a static inner class in java?

aliteralmind

Question for the moderators: I would like to apply minor edits to my question and answer. I've been warned about how reaching too many edits may have some consequences. Is it possible to know how many edits remain before that happens?

user41796

@gnat that gives me hope he'll consider it for other sites too then

Jimmy Hoffa

@aliteralmind Click revision and it'll show you the count in the history. 10 goes CW which means you get no rep for it. It's harmless just means you don't get the rep.

gnat

@JimmyHoffa yup you can. It is just a normal class, only placed inside another one. Unless it's private, then you can inherit only within enclosing class

Jimmy Hoffa

@gnat Ok then the static keyword on netsted classes in Java is weird

user41796

8:29 PM

@aliteralmind - and that's 10 per editor. so you can have an infinite number of editors performing up to 9 edits each and it shouldn't go into community wiki (CW) status

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 I never knew that!! lol...

aliteralmind

So another person could edit MY question ten times and push it into the wiki?

user41796

@JimmyHoffa yes, so if you're at edit #9 and have more to do, just ask one of us here in chat to do it

user41796

@aliteralmind yes

gnat

@GlenH7 as for CVs, I am skeptical about increase, a decline that comes to mind is, you've got about 500 3Kers, if they aren't involved in closing this means site community prefers things that way

user41796

8:30 PM

If it was done maliciously, you can petition a mod to revert the CW status.

user41796

@gnat won't know until I ask... :-)

user41796

But I think I'll raise that on MP.SE not MSO

aliteralmind

Seven for me. I won't touch after this next edit. Thanks.

user55340

@aliteralmind and mods can de-community wiki it. Just flag it and ask.

aliteralmind

Good to know.

user41796

8:32 PM

@aliteralmind you can also ask us here in chat to perform the edit if you'd like

gnat

@JimmyHoffa to me, the only purpose of static in inner class is to protect it from bugs that otherwise would creep in. Non-static inner class can access non-static fields of enclosing one (has implicit "enclosing this"), now when you try it in a more or less non-trivial code, that'll teach you a bit or two about what's weird

user41796

And mods will sometimes revert a CW status (after it being flagged) if you can explain why so many edits were necessary. Your Q went through a few evolutions so that could be decent justification. But at the same time, don't keep fiddling with it. It doesn't really gain you anything.

user55340

Look at the edit history of programmers.stackexchange.com/posts/145633/revisions

Jimmy Hoffa

@gnat I'll just take your word and say nested classes in java should always be static

gnat

@aliteralmind keep in mind, flag to de-wikify has best chances to work if post revision history makes a blindingly evident proof that revisions were substantial and non-abusive (some use it to bump)

@JimmyHoffa bless you! :)

user55340

8:44 PM

@GlenH7 on the subject of novelty of data (tangentially related... and maybe another tangent on that)... 6EQUJ5 ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal )

user41796

@MichaelT You know so many more cool trivia facts than I do. It would have been much more fun to work that into a comment to that question.

user55340

I keep thinking of making a T-shirt based on it...

user55340

gnat

free not an answer flags...

-1

A: Can the concept of Entropy be used to analyze source code in a useful way?

I have the same question I tried to apply intropy to sorting algorithm using c++ I stuck in calculating entropy for an orderd array

user55340

@GlenH7 The other numbers you see there are white noise.

user41796

8:48 PM

FYI - person putting tag edits into the queue isn't attributing wikipedia

user41796

<sigh>

enderland

Is there such a thing as git for websites?
Like, go to website and it does a git pull. Then the browser could reassemble the website and show the appropriate data.
This is opposed to redownloading the whole website and could save bandwidth.

basically allowing sites to send a diff file instead of a full new page (like git)

Jimmy Hoffa

@gnat does Java have implicit constructors?

user41796

I actually maxed out on the suggested edit review queue today...

user41796

Speaking of which, please double check recently suggested tag wiki edits against Wikipedia for copy & paste without attribution.

user41796

9:03 PM

I wish I could see which one is left in the queue. I'd manually go in and fix it.

user41796

This is it: programmers.stackexchange.com/tags/persistence/info Would reviewers go to that edit pending field and reject please?

user41796

Or put the wikipedia reference in there.

psr

@GlenH7 So is it abusive to deal with hotness lemmings by editing a hot question 10 times? (Won't work if they are not, in fact, hotness lemmings, but simply more eyeballs on question = more answers).

user55340

@GlenH7 Rejected.

user41796

@MichaelT thanks!

user55340

9:14 PM

@psr Put the 16th answer in. Make them all CW.

user41796

@psr too much effort. :-) But I also consider it borderline to add an answer in there just to push it into CW status too

enderland

@psr just protect it

user41796

@enderland except we usually can't.

user55340

Outside of TW, 15k can only protect after 2 days.

enderland

oh. bummer. you guys should just get more of these <>

user41796

9:19 PM

We keep trying for that too

user55340

You guys are special (partly because your mods complained loudly)... thats it!!! @gnat for mod!

psr

@enderland I'm out then. I'm approaching 10k asymptotically.

enderland

you need 10k to be a mod?

user55340

Oh, btw... twitch.tv/twitchplayspokemon

Jimmy Hoffa

0

A: How to improve upon Bloch's Builder Pattern, to make it more appropriate for use in classes that may be extended and sub-extended many times over?

I think the question here assumes something from the outset without attempting to prove it, that the builder pattern is inherently good. tl;dr I think the builder pattern is rarely if ever a good idea. Builder pattern purpose The purpose of the builder pattern is to maintain two rules that w...

RepWhoring ---^

user55340

9:21 PM

the chat messages --> commands for the game.

user41796

@psr it's weird how the run-up to milestones like that seem to drag out

enderland

@JimmyHoffa downvoted

wait doin it wrong

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland Good point, I'm downvoting m'self to - what a heap of words and garbage. Just shutup already geeez...

user41796

Have another DV

user55340

No use of monad. +1

user41796

9:23 PM

Not mentioning Haskell or FP +100

enderland

tl;dr

psr

Cfg has mutable properties. Nothing should ever be mutable. -1

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT Shit, actually I forgot this - I spent so long writing this I initially meant to add an "Other OTHER approaches" to the bottom, will add now.

user41796

9:45 PM

@WorldEngineer - thanks for nuking that last tag wiki edit

user20683

@GlenH7 no problem. The other matter is still inconclusive.

user41796

@WorldEngineer ah, ok. thanks for letting me know.

Jimmy Hoffa

Forgive me for I have sinned... I almost implemented a monad in Java. Then I got a headache and went blind for a few moments.

Side note, who is it you go to see if you're suddenly struck blind? Nobody! Nyuck nyuck nyuck! Oh yeah, what do you call a deaf gorilla? Anything you want, he can't hear you! ...yep, it's Friday.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa you might hallucinate in the first case and the gorilla might know sign language in the second.

user20683

This has been your resident moderator being a smartass...because Friday or something.

Jimmy Hoffa

9:50 PM

@WorldEngineer My wife used to be a gorilla keeper at the zoo, she told me the sign language thing is all a hoax; none of them actually know sign language, keepers just made it up to screw with the public.

....Ok maybe I made that bit up...

user55340

@WorldEngineer Its always Friday at Jimmy's... that said, its never the weekend either.

psr

@JimmyHoffa No, it's true. A gorilla told me the same thing.

user55340

@Ampt Idea has a code inspection/analyzer that will do "Anonymous type can be replaced with lambda"

user55340

10:20 PM

A huge problem would be a flooded basement. What you have is a tiny problem which can be resolved by reading the "what's on-topic" help page. — MetaFight yesterday

user55340

@MetaFight I wonder if HomeImprovement.SE has URGENT problems like SO/P.SE does.

user55340

(that said, ChrisF is a mod there too...)

Jimmy Hoffa

10:37 PM

without lambda, partial application is akin to gouging out your own eyes with an Official Replica Sonic ScrewDriver Pizza Cutter

@MichaelT enjoy my friday styled edit at the end. You'll want to -1 after reading it, but the gamer in you will be conflicted.

5

A: How to improve upon Bloch's Builder Pattern, to make it more appropriate for use in classes that may be extended and sub-extended many times over?

I think the question here assumes something from the outset without attempting to prove it, that the builder pattern is inherently good. tl;dr I think the builder pattern is rarely if ever a good idea. Builder pattern purpose The purpose of the builder pattern is to maintain two rules that w...

AND I DIDN'T EVEN SAY MONAD.

2

Screw it, canned those bits because it wouldn't have worked, java lacks so much of what's necessary to make any of that partial application shit work...

user41796

10:52 PM

@JimmyHoffa but the Infocom reference was awesome.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 Yeah, but I felt too dirty about how awful an implementation would have been using strategies to return recursive strategies

user41796

A couple of rounds of scotch would have washed that guilt away

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa No no! make it stop!

user41796

Oy, why can't I find IE10's developer tools?

Brant

Because IE10.

Jimmy Hoffa

10:57 PM

@GlenH7 Microsoft has been singling you our for years now, I'm surprised you haven't picked up on it yet. There's a blog and everything about all the bugs they've been implementing in if(UserName == GlenH7) blocks

user41796

That would be karmic payback for all the badmouthing I have done of them

user41796

Although I did describe silverlight as "not bad" which is equivalent to praise from me.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 yeah, but that was before you spent enough time with it.

user41796

well, now I found it. But it's greyed out.

user41796

Their search algorithms must have found all of my handles and user IDs

MetaFight

11:06 PM

@MichaelT Was I too rough? Something about that question really irked me!

lol, I like the subsequent question edits ;)

user41796

@MetaFight It was .... marginal

user41796

I was going to mention something about it yesterday when I ran across it and you were in chat. But OTOH, meta is different. And the tongue-in-cheek nature put things in perspective

MetaFight

I noticed the answer (which I had originally posted as a comment) was converted (back) to a comment.

user41796

A mod nuked your answer, so it likely had been flagged. But you had +5 / -0 for the votes.

user41796

probably more appropriate as a comment.

MetaFight

11:09 PM

I can live with that.

Jimmy Hoffa

0

Q: How to identify requirements of a computer system through planning and analysis.?

well I have a software to develop and there is a task which says How to identify requirements of a computer system through planning and analysis.? I have no idea how to do that. can someone help me please? all I need to know the way to do it like where should I start, what kind of things I need t...

development-process

-2

Q: How to identify requirements of a computer system through planning and analysis.?

well I have a software to develop and there is a task which says How to identify requirements of a computer system through planning and analysis.? I have no idea how to do that. can someone help me please? all I need to know the way to do it like where should I start, what kind of things I need t...

development-approach

0

Q: How to identify requirements of a computer system through planning and analysis.?

well I have a software to develop and there is a task which says How to identify requirements of a computer system through planning and analysis.? I have no idea how to do that. can someone help me please? all I need to know the way to do it like where should I start, what kind of things I need t...

development

user41796

@JimmyHoffa Did you flag the cross-posts?

Jimmy Hoffa

I agree dude! Eff migrations!

user41796

It's garbage for us, so I'd say nuke away

Brant

Depends on which one is a cross-post of what.

Ampt

11:12 PM

NUUUUUUUUUUKE IT

Jimmy Hoffa

it's garbage for anyone..

user41796

@Brant nuke 'em all

user41796

it's a no-effort tell me how to gather requirements question.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 No, it's a no effort 'How do I create software?' question which is even sillier

"I can do it no don't worry, I just need you to uhh tell me how.. yeah."

user41796

I won't quibble the point. Nuke it.

user55340

11:44 PM

On the M.P.SE question on our quick delete of a particular question...

user55340

0

A: Could not find information in help center about where to find my question that was today deleted

There is a balancing act that is being walked between the "everything is downvoted and closed" and the "you delete things too soon". The stress between these two philosophies has also gotten a touch more stressed with an interpretation of an answer elsemeta. It is quite possible that we've been...

user55340

I'm on my way out for the evening, and will be back home shortly... any feedback on it is welcome.

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