The Whiteboard

HotelCalifornia

9:00 PM

that's fair

#springbreaklife \o/

user20683

Because chat is more active now than it used to be in general

user20683

it comes and goes

user15026

@durron597 Oh dear, that's ungood

Jimmy Hoffa

oh haha that's hilarious

user15026

@HotelCalifornia I don't have a job, so....

durron597

9:00 PM

@AshleyNunn Meh. Just a little. I ate it like a week ago

HotelCalifornia

oh, right

Ixrec

this is the first mod drama since I joined the network so I'm "enjoying" it quite a bit

durron597

I also probably drank too much wine last night ;)

Jimmy Hoffa

I like it, we apparently don't generate much vitriol even though we attract barely anyone and close almost everything, meanwhile the response to Shog9 basically proves his point about being vitriolic:

> @Shog9 That reputation comes from whiny illiterates [...]

HotelCalifornia

ごめん、ごめん

user15026

9:01 PM

@durron597 That might be a contributing factor

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 gads, run away, far away

durron597

You're volunteers and you're doing this of your own free will, @Sven. We've built extremely powerful tools for y'all to use in service to the community here... Tools that can do a great deal of damage if abused. You're free to not use them, but if you do then you should expect - heck, you should demand - some amount of oversight. This is the second time in two months I've had to clean up after reckless, uninformed use of these tools with no attempt made to communicate with the public or even with the rest of the mod team. This isn't a PR problem anymore. — Shog9 ♦ 2 mins ago

Second time in two months?

Jimmy Hoffa

haha that SF election is just too much funny

Robert Harvey

The other drama going on:

-14

Q: Does Stack Exchange really believe that "gender balance" in programming is a problem?

(Moved from meta.stackoverflow per a commenter's suggestion.) In the Stack Overflow annual survey report, we find this paragraph: Software development has a gender balance problem. Our internal stats suggest the imbalance isn't quite as severe as the survey results would make it seem, but th...

user20683

@enderland This on topic for workplace?

user20683

9:04 PM

0

Q: Is this site the proper SE site to ask questions about software dev processes?

I have a few questions about the Agile process but not sure which SE is best suited for it. Is this the right site for it? The current question(s) that I have: Is there an Agile term for when there is a stakeholder that acts as a bottleneck by jumping in only occasionally to trump decisions m...

discussion scope

Robert Harvey

Got deleted twice on Meta.SO. Third time's charm, I guess.

enderland

@WorldEngineer not really, quesitons like "name this" aren't really good SE questions in general

The second part yeah

but the first part no

durron597

Wow:

5

A: Should the rep requirement for creating tags on Server Fault be raised?

So... Normally, I would collect some data on how many tags are created by users at various rep levels, and how they were used. This is a pretty decent way to gauge whether anything of value would be lost if the privilege were bumped up. I started to do that here. The results looked good - barely...

user20683

@enderland Yeah. I think the question is more "here is a person doing the thing? Are they a kind of chicken? How do I deal with this person?"

user55340

Should dig up shog's comparison of p.se to sf.

enderland

9:06 PM

"Bad Micromanager" ? — enderland 49 secs ago

Robert Harvey

It might be different if the general ass-hattery amongst the regulars at SF didn't seem so high.

user55340

Something along the lines of "even though prog.se closes half of its new questions it doesn't generate a fraction of the support issues sf does". And that is horribly misquoted and paraphrased.

Ixrec

are you referring to "even Programmers, which attracts far fewer questions per day and rejects nearly all of them, doesn't come close to generating the levels of straight-up vitriol that y'all do."?

durron597

@MichaelT It's in the nomination page I just linked above.

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT We all know what that really means, and the history behind it.

SF didn't go through an enormous scope change like Programmers did. A change which was largely precipitated by SE, not Programmers.

user55340

9:09 PM

That's the one. Mobile has very little scroll back.

user55340

Top of my page is "second time in two months"

Ixrec

it does seem like over here the prevailing attitude regarding the bad questions is one of melancholy rather than anger

user55340

Melancholy is a very apt word choice.

Robert Harvey

We're very civil about it here. Even more civil than Stack Overflow, though they get some automated help with the really bad questions. Otherwise, they would be overwhelmed.

Ixrec

maybe that's because we don't get any "halp me server crashed"-style questions

enderland

9:11 PM

> t kinda sounds like you've correctly identified the problem, and then... Arrived at the status quo as the solution. Let's face it: as a community, your reputation for cruelty, snark, and general unhelpfulness is unmatched - even Programmers, which attracts far fewer questions per day and rejects nearly all of them, doesn't come close to generating the levels of straight-up vitriol that y'all do.

> And so, upon observing that the only folks willing to still come here are utterly lost and desperate, your solution is... youtube.com/watch?v=0VjPNKc0Vs

Ixrec

come to think of it, Arqade gets a bit angry about their "halp me Minecraft crashed" questions

HotelCalifornia

haha

Robert Harvey

@Ixrec But that's what the SF crowd signed up for. What did they expect?

user55340

Um... We do get the help server crashed questions.

Ixrec

do we? I haven't seen any

user20683

9:12 PM

@Ixrec irrationally so. It makes @AshleyNunn very sad.

user15026

@WorldEngineer anger squidding

Robert Harvey

Kinda like Stack Overflow with their "What have you tried?" That question inexorably leads to "Stack Overflow as troubleshooting tool." Be careful what you ask for.

user15026

@Ixrec You would too if you had to deal with them ALL THE TIME and they ALL SUCK.

durron597

I think in here, we all sort of understand that the scope is a subjective one and therefore difficult to understand to new users. It's a "yup, this is hard, but we'll try to explain it to you attitude"

3

user15026

(well, not all. But too many)

user55340

9:13 PM

Not often but they do show up here too. Our 20k delete votes on helpless unfixable questions do get cast.

Ixrec

@durron597 THIS

@durron597 Have a star

HotelCalifornia

I used to do minecraft modding stuff, so I hung out in the forge IRC channel... there were so many 'how2code!!1??' questions that someone made a bot that would tell people to learn how to code before attempting modding

durron597

@RobertHarvey I miss "What have you tried?" :-/

enderland

@durron597 problem is you can only do that so long before you just... stop caring

Ixrec

yeah on every other site the scope is relatively clear, and they're getting angry about exceedingly lazy questions that are obviously bad even to people with zero knowledge of the site's scope or history

I don't get why programming attracts so many people who are too lazy to read a programming tutorial

durron597

9:14 PM

Like, I totally get why someone would think a question about what they should learn next or what classes I should take would be on topic

Ixrec

you'd think it would scare away lazy people

user20683

@Ixrec "easy" money

Ixrec

oh

that was the most depressing answer possible

user20683

I work in a bookstore at the moment.

user55340

Lazy people know no fear. They are too lazy.

2

Ixrec

9:16 PM

what is it with this chat room and always giving exactly 2 stars?

user15026

@MichaelT you win the internets, my friend.

user15026

If I could hand you a boozy cupcake right now, I would.

Robert Harvey

I think the easy money is gone. That was still true before the bottom fell out of the mortgage market. Now many employers seem to want a degree and broad-spectrum knowledge. You can't get that from reading a book and writing a few programs.

user20683

@Ixrec automatic mod 2 function

user55340

@Ixrec because we aren't the bridge.

user15026

9:17 PM

@MichaelT I am glad of that

user20683

I once had a customer ask "Do you have any books on programming?"
Me: "What language?"
Them: "English!"

2

Robert Harvey

I can make a few of them three stars, if that will make you feel better.

Ixrec

I'm honestly surprised nobody bumped it to 3 the moment I said that

but, I guess this isn't the bridge

user20683

@Ixrec ding ding ding

Ixrec

oh now someone did

user15026

9:17 PM

@WorldEngineer oh, no. no no no no no.

user55340

I can make things two stars if they have one. But I can't star something.

Yannis Rizos

@Ixrec Thought about it. Too lazy to do it.

Ixrec

@YannisRizos How topical

user20683

the sheer number of poor souls looking to cash in with an iphone app is depressing

user15026

@WorldEngineer snorts

Ixrec

9:18 PM

@WorldEngineer considering Flappy Bird is real, it's a little hard to blame them

Robert Harvey

@WorldEngineer The sheer odds against them are overwhelming.

user20683

@RobertHarvey yep

user15026

BUT I AM STUDYING APP PROGRAMMING AT A COLLEGE YOU HAVENT HEARD OF. I CAN SURELY WORK AT GOOGLE NOW

user20683

I've built iphone apps

user20683

they were kind of a pain

HotelCalifornia

9:19 PM

speaking of cashing in, does apple still charge to publish things to their app store?

user15026

Also, "I have an English degree therefore I can work on Google Fiber" because.....no, even I can't follow that person's logic.

HotelCalifornia

the so-called developer license?

user20683

@HotelCalifornia you need a dev license yes

user55340

Yep.

Ixrec

@HotelCalifornia I think so

HotelCalifornia

9:20 PM

blargh

anger at apple is even more justified

user15026

(I have friends with.....dreams.)

Ixrec

@WorldEngineer I very briefly attempted to figure out Android programming; I could never get the emulator performant enough to be usable

user20683

I once took candy from Steve Jobs

Ixrec

getting to "Hello, World!" should never be the hard part

user55340

Until you have something to publish its free. And you can publish to your own phone iirc.

user20683

9:21 PM

I went to his house whilst trick or treating by accident (the house, I was trick or treating on purpose)

HotelCalifornia

My dad answered the phone once, and it was Steve Jobs... he had no idea at the time who Steve Jobs was though

Ixrec

@WorldEngineer Put "accidentally" at the beginning of the sentence =)

user55340

I'd much rather trick or treat Woz.

Ampt

Jesus Christ SF has gone off the deep end...

You know why you can't see any discussion on moderation changes? Because they've completely taken discussion to a private chat room

user55340

If I was in California on October 31, I'd still do it.

HotelCalifornia

9:23 PM

he's an interesting guy

Ixrec

@Ampt Wow...is there still that much to discuss?

HotelCalifornia

I went to a keynote where he spoke, and he kept going off the topic the moderator was trying to get him on

Ixrec

from what I've read it sounds like Shog and Noob simply need to sit down and talk out their differences

user55340

@Ixrec SF has disappeared from SE chat. The regulars are on private chat elsewhere.

Ampt

@Ixrec No, they just got tired of people coming into chat and asking questions

user15026

9:25 PM

@Ampt Whaaaaaaat

Ampt

I guess they haven't figured out the ability to mute users and started taking it personally

Ixrec

@Ampt Ah, that would make sense

Ampt

you guys haven't known that?

yeah they went to a private hipchat server

in The Comms Room, Nov 3 '14 at 10:55, by tombull89

Server Fault - 30th April 2009 to 31 October 2014?

user15026

@Ampt I might've heard some vague rumblings

Ixrec

I'm not really net-stalking any of these people, I just read the bits of drama linked in here

Ampt

9:26 PM

in The Comms Room, Dec 11 '14 at 21:37, by Travis

Wow this place is dead.

user55340

This makes it challenging to find community consensus on SE chat (which one can find the transcripts for).

Ampt

so yeah, like us, they probably discuss the site often in attempts to keep it of the quality they want

but unlike us, you can't see, or even contribute to that conversation

we actively invite people in here to discuss both meta and off-topic questions with them

user55340

But, it's closed to all but the regulars.

Ampt

they have closed both of those doors

Yannis Rizos

Meh, they can chat wherever they want.

user55340

9:29 PM

We even have a meta answer for how to get access here if you have trouble getting 20 rep.

Ixrec

at the risk of being presumptuous... that did seem like exactly the sort of thing one should not do as high-rep SE users

Yannis Rizos

Meta is always there for anyone who cares to contribute...

HotelCalifornia

speaking of meta, do you not get rep from meta Q/A?

Ampt

@YannisRizos the fact is that there is a non-small subgroup of high rep users who discuss meta topics

in chat and on meta

sometimes those efforts are duplicated

other times... they are not

user15026

@HotelCalifornia Nope, not on child meta sites

user15026

9:32 PM

MSE you do

HotelCalifornia

ah, that explains it

Ampt

The problem is that if you use SE chat, there is a clear log of that conversation

with hipchat, there's not

so there should be a more concentrated effort to put those conversations on meta

at least in a distilled, documented way

Yannis Rizos

Are you sure that doesn't happen?

user55340

Amopt for SF mod.

3

Ampt

Apparently not according to the de-modding of a mod over there

> This is a bit worrying, but not entirely unusual - moderators or regular users engaged in a big cleanup campaign often have histories of repetitive actions. So I dug a bit deeper - starting with the links in the comments themselves, then in recent meta activity. Nowhere did I find any hint of a massive question cleanup campaign. Now I'm getting a bit worried, especially since these closures (and comments) are still appearing while I'm researching.

> I checked chat - both the public rooms associated with Server Fault, and the private moderator room. Nowhere was there any discussion of this, save for a lone message from Hopeless in a nearly-abandoned chatroom noting that he had been "closing webpanel questions by the hundreds".

19

A: Abrupt change in moderation staff?

Since HopelessN00b wants to have this discussion in public, I will oblige. I was on the site today because we got a few different emails this past week about it. One was Chris S, stepping down as a moderator - I'll let him talk about that if he wishes to; moderators are volunteers, and are of c...

@MichaelT yeah, find a mop, T

Yannis Rizos

9:35 PM

I don't have any reason to believe this wasn't an isolated incident. I also don't have any reason to believe Hopeless coordinated his cleanup with regulars in a private chat room somewhere. From the very little data I have, it seems far more likely to me that he just woke up one day and decided to close all the things.

HotelCalifornia

heh

user20683

Moderators occasionally snap.

Ampt

Agreed, this incident may not even be wrong, judging by the community's reaction

user20683

we are human too

user55340

And he didn't even learn Haskell.

Yannis Rizos

9:36 PM

Which, isn't a bad thing in itself. And, from what I gather, there is a general agreement on SF that plesk/cpanel questions don't belong.

Ampt

if those things are considered off topic and in need of cleanup, we would do the same

Ixrec

@Ampt which thing are you saying might not be wrong?

HotelCalifornia

どんとドラマだよね

Ixrec

@Ampt ah okay

Ampt

but that said, we usually have it documented somewhere that it's happening

either in chat

or in a meta post

depending on the scope and actions

user20683

9:37 PM

@HotelCalifornia please provide translations unless in JL's chat

Yannis Rizos

The problem was the robo-closing (and the failure to respond when the robo-closing was noticed) than anything else.

2

HotelCalifornia

meh

Ixrec

I was about to ask, how many people here actually can read that?

HotelCalifornia

>lots of drama, right

Ixrec

(I can but I think I'm the exception)

HotelCalifornia

9:37 PM

well, I can

user15026

@HotelCalifornia well yes, but the rest of us can't, so it becomes counterproductive to conversdation

Ampt

Ok, gotta go pick my GF up from work. I'll be on later to expouse more of my feelings to you guys

it'll be GRRRRRRRRRRREAT

HotelCalifornia

meep

user20683

Google Translate says "DONTO, I'm drama"

Ixrec

that is what chat is for

user55340

9:38 PM

There are some mod power chat things with translate, but nothing for mortals.

Ampt

@MichaelT speak for yourself, I'm a sock

user20683

@Ampt expose your feelings to your girlfriend. It might get you laid.

user20683

:P

Ampt

psh, it's my birthday, that's guaranteed

user20683

@Ampt well happy birthday

user55340

9:39 PM

12

Q: Indicate the language translated from translate tool

The "translate:" tool available to moderators in chat rooms is able to translate to/from many languages, and is also able to auto-detect foreign-language text and translate to English. This is great, but a small additional feature would be to indicate what language was used for the translation. ...

feature-request status-completed chat moderator-tools translations

HotelCalifornia

1 min ago, by HotelCalifornia

>lots of drama, right

user15026

@Ampt Birthdays are awesome.

HotelCalifornia

tbf, I gave a translation when you asked for one :P

user15026

@HotelCalifornia but I shouldn't have to ask

HotelCalifornia

chat virgin over here

Ixrec

9:40 PM

その通りだ ('re Right)

that's a weird place for chat to go silent

durron597

@MichaelT I had to double star that for the spelling error. @GlenH7 DO NOT FIX

HotelCalifornia

and a hush fell over the crowd

durron597

@YannisRizos I think if Hopeless had "mea culpa"ed instead of getting mad he would have his diamond back already.

user55340

I tried fixing it. Full chat on mobile sucks.

psr

@YannisRizos Maybe, like you, he doesn't even remember afterwords.

durron597

9:44 PM

Just "whoops, you're right, I should have made a Meta post on the subject. I didn't think it through. MY BAD" it would have been drama-less and already over.

Ixrec

@durron597 Definitely

HotelCalifornia

oh, so providing whatever nasty translation google gives is okay? lol

durron597

@YannisRizos It's not isolated.

Ixrec

I'm not understanding how that discussion about the SF tag ecosystem is relevant to the Shog v Noob drama

HotelCalifornia

well, whatever. sorry I did it in the first place

Ixrec

9:46 PM

aside from the fact that it's a Shog answer with a Noob comment on it

stupid question: why would you tag a bunch of questions as [off-topic] instead of...voting to close as off-topic?

ugly workaround for the daily VTC cap?

durron597

How do these guys think merging 1400 tags into off-topic is a good idea?

I mean, even if the questions suck, at least they're organized suck.

Ixrec

I didn't really understand that logic either

if the tags suck, burninate them

GimmeTehRepz

I imagine it's the same process that leads to spaghetti code.

Yannis Rizos

@durron597 Hm, yes, that doesn't look good.

user55340

@Ixrec tag merges are a mod power. A rather powerful one. To merge 1400 tags is... Excessive and probably the wrong tool.

user55340

9:52 PM

The point of this is that hopeless appears to be using the mod tools in a rather unconstrained way. This causes concern for CMs.

Ixrec

on PSE we have a grand total of...1897 tags

user55340

It's like merging all the users to goma. And even Yannis didn't do that.

Ixrec

I guess I hadn't realized how many tags 1400 is

goma?

user20683

@Ixrec long story

user20683

probably still causes @YannisRizos to drink

user55340

9:54 PM

Old troll. Would create new accounts all the time. Yannis often merged them until he asked the question of what would happen if...

Ixrec

no hits on MSE

Yannis Rizos

@WorldEngineer I never needed a reason to drink.

Ixrec

ah, got it

durron597

@MichaelT What would happen if what?

@YannisRizos It's passover. 4 glasses of wine woohoo!!

user55340

chat.stackexchange.com/search?q=Goma&user=&room=

user55340

9:56 PM

@durron597 if all the users were merged to the same account. It's irreversible.

Yannis Rizos

> This user has been suspended 10 times. 76 user accounts have been merged into this user.

user55340

SE realized the degree of how bad that tool could be misused and took it away.

user55340

Key point: Yannis adked what if first.

Ixrec

what was the answer?

Yannis Rizos

Don't.

user55340

9:59 PM

Merging 1400 tags... Also irreversible.

enderland

ahhhh, nothing like solving a problem only a few min before you wanted to leave for the day on friday and being in a great place to go "that waits till monday"

Yannis Rizos

That said, I regret never finding out what would happen if I merged someone with Community ♦

Ixrec

@enderland My day was like that too =)

Yannis Rizos

No one thinks too hard about tags until something bad happens and you need to decide if it's worth pulling backups, @Sven. Not the first time a moderator screwed that up; I guess it's time we took a hard look at those tools & ask whether anyone should have access to them. — Shog9 ♦ 25 mins ago

durron597

@YannisRizos Ah, the loophole how to make @MichaelT a mod without an election. BOOM

Yannis Rizos

10:03 PM

I guess we'll soon won't be able to merge tags when needed. Thanks Hopeless :/

user55340

The other part: none of the SF mods or regulars acted to clean it up.

Ixrec

hopefully they rate limit it instead of removing it entirely

durron597

@YannisRizos You should try to head it off at the pass if you can

Yannis Rizos

Probably. Or make it easily reversible.

durron597

I mean, they didn't ban it a month ago

user55340

10:07 PM

@durron597 a month ago, there was hope that the mod would clean it up. Or spur the community to help.

user55340

Now it's a we're looking at backups for a few things.

HotelCalifornia

@durron597 yeah, but those glasses were 5-6 days ago.. :3

user55340

user55340

A few weeks ago glasses.

durron597

@MichaelT Uhm, it happened before St. Patricks day donchaknow

You know what's ironic? We are currently doing a similar major overhaul of a subset of tags - the career based tags. But the difference is that our mods have been doing it with community involvement and a discussion on meta. Thanks our mods!

gnat

10:25 PM

the very act of completely answering a question makes it impossible for asker to accept. That's so... meta — gnat 11 hours ago

Ampt

10:41 PM

Ugh, take that crap to meta.meta.stackexchange.com

cluttering up the comment feeds on meta... terrible

Robert Harvey

Anyone here have enough meta.SE rep to delete-vote this? meta.stackexchange.com/q/253164/102937

durron597

@Ampt genie.meta.stackexchange.com

@RobertHarvey I dunno, if Anna wanted it gone, it would be gone...

Robert Harvey

Meh.

Obvious troll is obvious.

Ixrec

it's already closed, has the best answer it could ever hope to get and has been downvoted into oblivion, so it's probably fine

durron597

Hm. Upon further reflection, too much poor taste not enough funny on that one.

@RobertHarvey Hm. Anna got a reversal badge for that one. Which made me realize

Going through MSE reversal badges is a pretty interesting read. I recommend.

Yannis Rizos

10:53 PM

@RobertHarvey Gone.

@Ixrec Some of the last comments were getting a bit personal, and the whole thread lost any value it had once it became clear that the OP was more interested in arguing with random strangers on the internet than getting an answer to his question.

Ixrec

@YannisRizos True, he was actively pushing it in that direction

rwong

Why does a document image (printed by an offset press) digitized by a scanner, in the absence of descreening option, will produce a noise pattern (which looks similar to, but not exactly Moire pattern), whose pixel noise distribution is Chi-Squared with DOF 1 ?

durron597

I really wish the "read deleted posts" privilege was SE wide

rwong

@durron597 "delete read posts"

Yannis Rizos

@durron597 Link?

durron597

11:02 PM

I mean, because I have 10k on one site, I could read deleted posts on all sites

(I don't actually wish it. I just want to whine about it).

Yannis Rizos

@durron597 If it's a MSE reversal you want to read, give me a link and I'll screenshot it for you.