The Whiteboard

enderland

4:01 PM

@JimmyHoffa so it turns out C++ is shit for a build environment... ;)

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland Truth. C++ is such a wreck, I have been build master over MSVC++ stuff in the past...

Yannis Rizos

@durron597 I generally dislike flags asking for things users can do by themselves. And, "I've run out of close votes" isn't (generally) a good reason to flag. The various rate limits are there for a reason, and flagging shouldn't be used as a way to bypass those limits. Of course, if the post must go away immediately, feel free to flag it.

enderland

seriously, we do "TDD" here which never happens since it takes minutes to build even small projects let alone main repos... no chance in hell anyone's going to do real TDD or anything even close

durron597

@YannisRizos My question was tongue-in-cheek, I agree with you

Ampt

@enderland NEEDS MOAR POWAH

Yannis Rizos

4:06 PM

@Telastyn When it comes to the whole improve or close debate, I've found it a lot easier to show than tell. Fix questions, and then sneakily advertise your improvements. You can - for example - drop them in here and ask people if your fixes salvaged the question. It won't be long before you start noticing people following your example.

durron597

SO 15k+ protect please: stackoverflow.com/questions/1138195/…

Yannis Rizos

@durron597 I noticed the ;) at the end, no worries. My comment sounds a lot more serious than I intended it to be.

Robert Harvey

Given that you managed to ask this question on the wrong site initially, perhaps you should first make an effort to understand how moderation works (in particular, the concept of "protection") before you start claiming discrimination. — Robert Harvey 1 min ago

durron597

@RobertHarvey I'm trying to decide whether I want to vote for Raghav Sood. How big of a problem would you say lack of SO moderators during night in the USA is?

Robert Harvey

Hold on while I check some stats...

The average flag handling time right now is 15 hours.

durron597

4:15 PM

@RobertHarvey There must be some really long outliers there, though

I've had a pending flag for days

Robert Harvey

Perhaps.

durron597

Probably weeks at this point

What's the median flag handling time?

Robert Harvey

Good question. That's the only stat available to me on the moderator dashboard, and it's throwing random "something bad happened" error messages. Takes about 30 seconds to run. I'm probably taking down SO during that time.

durron597

@RobertHarvey Sweet!

Yannis Rizos

Good. ProgSE will truly shine only after SO is gone. Thanks @RobertHarvey!

3

user41796

4:18 PM

@durron597 I've got one pushing close to 2 weeks now

Yannis Rizos

@GlenH7 You don't count, you're hellbanned.

user41796

@YannisRizos Gonna need a lot more close votes then. Just sayin'

user41796

@YannisRizos I was wondering why everything on SE except Engineering wasn't loading for me....

durron597

@GlenH7 The one I have pending, I checked, it's March 13

user41796

You win. Mine is from March 31

Robert Harvey

4:23 PM

@durron597 That flag has been looked at by four different moderators already (including myself, when you first flagged it). I think I'm going to go ahead and dismiss it; nobody's going to remove CW from all of those posts.

Man, I wish I could convince people to stop using "EDIT." Nobody ever complains when I remove it from their posts, but I posted a meta SO question about it, and you'd think people couldn't possibly live without it.

user114359

@RobertHarvey I think the only benefit of that is if a Q or A is long, it might not be obvious that an edit was made to the people who are currently commenting and debating. Not that it is a good practice, but it helps explain it.

user55340

@RobertHarvey +1 good advice.

durron597

@RobertHarvey I don't really care that much

I had a bug up my but about auto-cwed posts for a little while but I have since stopped caring.

Robert Harvey

Didn't they fix that?

durron597

I only mentioned it now to illustrate the meaninglessness of average flag handling times.

@RobertHarvey They fixed it for FUTURE questions; my flag was about a PREVIOUS question.

user55340

4:33 PM

They are no longer auto cw. But old posts need mod action to restore.

user41796

@RobertHarvey They did, but they never went back and un-CW'd any of them. I think the guidance was "if you see something that really shouldn't be CW because of auto-CW then flag it."

user41796

Which is what my 2 week old flag concerns

durron597

13

Q: How to decide whether to un-wiki questions/answers posted in rep-denial era

Last year, we decided to stop automatically convert questions to Community Wiki. Relevant MSE thread: Stop using community wiki as a reputation denial mechanism. I think many of these auto-converted questions should be reverted to full questions again, especially the ones that were converted for...

Mine too

Perhaps you should have a conversation in TL about it

user55340

Part of this was likely a bit of hanging out just short of 10k rep... If not for that cw post.

Robert Harvey

@durron597 Note that the question you flagged has extensive EDIT abuse.

Perhaps that's because there's so many answers on it, the OP felt the need to summarize in the question.

durron597

4:38 PM

@RobertHarvey Again, I don't care anymore. Feel free to dismiss

Robert Harvey

Already did. :)

durron597

6 mins ago, by durron597

I only mentioned it now to illustrate the meaninglessness of average flag handling times.

Awww you gave me helpful though. Thanks :-P

Ampt

@RobertHarvey Ugh, you filthy mods are always just dismissing the users flags out of hand! We're people too you know!

We deserve to have our flags heard!

Duga

I will agree it doesn't seem to fit the bill for SO. There isn't a specific programming problem involved. This is close enough to be considered asking for a tutorial or recommendation, which are off-topic for SO. You may have better luck on one of the other SE sites like Programmers.SE. — Crackertastic 1 min ago

Ampt

#OccupyStackOverflow

Duga

4:40 PM

I have asked myself this question so many times. But it might be a question for [programmers[(programmers.stackexchange.com)? I thought there was a comp-sci stack exchange but I can't find it now. I can't wait to see what kind of answers you get. — Mark Mikofski 1 min ago

durron597

@Duga @RobertHarvey now THAT one might be a migration candidate.

Duga

@Crackertastic Too broad is too broad, anywhere on SE. Open-ended questions like this one will be rapidly downvoted and closed on Programmers. Please see: What goes on Programmers.SE? A guide for Stack Overflow — durron597 1 min ago

Robert Harvey

Eh, it's not really off-topic for stack overflow.

durron597

@RobertHarvey Yeah, it's borderline

It's rare for Duga to tell us about a post that actually would be on topic on programmers, though.

Duga

@MarkMikofski you are thinking of cs.stackexchange.com though that site deals more with the questions that need funky greek letters and like talking about Big O. This question though, I'd be on the edge for if it would best be asked on Stack Overflow or Programmers.SE. As it is here and doesn't appear to be gathering off topic votes, its probably ok here. Note that if it was to be migrated to P.SE, the answers wouldn't match the desired style of answers for that site. — MichaelT 1 min ago

durron597

4:46 PM

Ughhh I just remembered I gotta do my taxes this weekend. UGHHHH

Robert Harvey

Waiting till the last minute, eh?

durron597

@RobertHarvey That would be Wednesday my friend

Ampt

Shit.. I already filed, got my return, and spent it

hahaha

Duga

@MarkMikofski on the other hand if, the question was one that is primarily opinion or too broad on Stack Overflow, it would likely fare equally on Programmers.SE. To that end, you may wish to read What goes on Programmers.SE? A guide for Stack Overflow which tries to help Stack Overflow users understand the scope of Programmers.SE and avoid poor migration suggestions. — MichaelT 50 secs ago

user114359

I owed a few thousand dollars :-(

enderland

4:48 PM

wtf man. Ever since states RAN OUT OF MONEY I've done my taxes as early as I can

@Ampt mine went straight into an IRA!

@Snowman that's good! means you did't give a free loan to the gubbermint

durron597

@enderland Texas has no state income tax. BOOM

Ampt

Mine went onto high interest studend loans!

@enderland no, but you have to pay interest on owed money

enderland

@durron597 gtfo :(

durron597

@enderland Hey I tried to get you to apply to work here

enderland

@Ampt yeah, only ifit's over $1k I think

user114359

4:48 PM

@enderland my goal is to owe or get back < $100. Not thousands. That stung.

enderland

and it's not that much

user55340

I owe almost five digits despite not working most of last year. Some of my silly valley investments showed up with nice numbers that were not at all red.

enderland

@durron597 har har har. I'm probably accepting a job offer internally anyways.... though it's not really software dev

Ampt

@Snowman shoulda had a ~~subsidized tax vessal~~ kid.

user114359

@Ampt I have two

enderland

4:49 PM

@MichaelT wat? did you get hit with huge capital gains? I can't imagine you had that much in dividends :P

Ampt

you can always have more ~~deductions~~ kids!

Robert Harvey

I've often wondered how Texas manages to pay for things. One of my coworkers had a theory: he said that states with the full-time legislatures were the ones that had the most problems (the part-time legislatures had to focus on real problems, and not manufacture new ones).

user55340

@Ampt thought your girlfriend wanted a deduction.

enderland

@RobertHarvey property taxes are higher

Ampt

@MichaelT she wants 5 of them to be specific

user114359

4:50 PM

Robert Harvey

@enderland I doubt that. My brother pays something like $3000 per year, but he's on 7 acres of land.

Ampt

dang, did your wife have a nose job? That does not look natural.

@RobertHarvey location, location, location

user55340

@enderland a multi year investment came back with nearly 2x it's original value.

enderland

@RobertHarvey that's a lot though, how much is the assessed value? $300k?

user114359

Looks about as natural as a sock puppet!

enderland

4:51 PM

@MichaelT so you made.... a lot of money on it then :P lol

Ampt

Hey! These googley eyes have been passed down through my great, great, great grandfather's family for generations!

durron597

@RobertHarvey High sales tax, high taxes on businesses, fees for paperwork

enderland

5 figures in capital gains is a lot of gain ;)

durron597

It's actually not as "libertarian" as they would have you believe.

Ampt

@enderland he's making money, not bulking up :P

user55340

4:52 PM

Yep. Not complaining at all. And thus also my relaxed nature of unemployment last year.

durron597

They also have speed traps everywhere.

Robert Harvey

Hmm, 1.8 percent in Texas. My rate is about 1.2 in California, but I have an assessment attached to pay for the local school.

enderland

Yeah, that's not insignificant @RobertHarvey

user55340

nearly five digits.

Robert Harvey

Damn right it isn't. That school assessment is pricey. :)

enderland

4:53 PM

enderland won't do the math to show what you mean @MichaelT

;)

Robert Harvey

My brother put three cows on his property so he could have an agricultural exemption.

Ampt

small price to pay for decreased taxes

enderland

@Ampt totally read that as "deceased taxes"

Ampt

how many daughters did he have to marry off for that dowry?

user114359

Mmmm... cows...

Robert Harvey

4:55 PM

@Ampt Well, he birthed and sold a couple of calves, if that's what you mean.

user114359

Ampt

@enderland that isn't a joke. they tax you for DYING nowadays

whatsisname

they tax you for unloading your assets to people after you die

which isn't exactly the same thing

psr

@Ampt I'd rather pay a tax after I'm dead than before.

durron597

user41796

4:56 PM

@whatsisname And done properly (within certain limits) you can do so for free

enderland

@durron597 as long as you don't have family you want to bestoy your wealth too though ;)

but the inheritance tax is absurdly high right now

user114359

I would rather my family get my assets than a bunch of idiot lawyers in the state capitol deciding what to do with it.

enderland

I think you need to have something liek 5M or so in assets

whatsisname

@enderland: or more, you need a shitload

which is why 99% of the people complaining about the estate tax rules are complaining against their own self interest

enderland

@whatsisname 5.43M now I guess, yeah, that's a lot more than I'll have when I die

Robert Harvey

4:57 PM

SURREALISM: You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

Sounds like the US Government, every day.

Ampt

I liked the enron one personally

durron597

ITALIAN CORPORATION: You have two cows, but you don't know where they are. You decide to have lunch.

whatsisname

@Snowman: and I, as society, in exchange for enforcing that those assets are transferred properly, expect to take a cut.

user114359

@whatsisname I have a will. It is a private contract, no need to get anyone else involved. Even at probate, they basically just add bureaucracy.

durron597

@Ampt The enron one is hard to read there, easier to read in this version

Ampt

5:00 PM

@durron597 One of my buddies had this on his college dorm wall in poster size

whatsisname

@Snowman: there is no such thing as a private contract, because the man is there to enforce them

and if one of the parties in the contract is dead, he sure can't be his own enforcer

user114359

@whatsisname that is what the executor is for

whatsisname

@durron597: the easiest way to read it is in email chain-spam form, it's native form

@Snowman: and when someone tries to snatch all the money for themselves, who does the executor go to?

Robert Harvey

0

A: Advantages of the imperative style over the functional style

Well, you already hinted at the answer. Imperative programming is closer to the metal, so it makes more sense in places (like embedded) where you're working closer to the metal. Nobody would bother programming an Arduino in Haskell (well, except maybe for @JimmyHoffa), though programming one in ...

Name dropping.

user114359

@whatsisname court. Argument is still crap, because you are essentially saying that everyone should pay taxes for contract enforcement because of the tiny number of cases where a judge is required (and court fees would be paid anyway).

psr

5:04 PM

@RobertHarvey I just read something claiming embedded JavaScript is becoming a thing. ???

user114359

But in reality, it is only people who have enough for an inheritance tax that pay for it, so we are subsidizing ourselves from dead rich people.

enderland

@psr probably javascript running on an otherwise embedded system

whatsisname

everyone does pay taxes that maintain the civil court system, court fees don't cover the whole operation

user114359

@whatsisname I am closing this argument as "primarily opinion-based" because the crux of the issue is I hate paying taxes :-P

whatsisname

lol

user41796

5:07 PM

Doesn't sound like anyone (else) in here has actually set up a trust.

enderland

@Snowman just quit your job

whatsisname

believe me I hate paying taxes too, but I at least acknowledge their legitimacy in many cases

enderland

@GlenH7 it is more important if you are older and have very specific things you want to do with money

durron597

@GlenH7 No one else in here is 95 years old

whatsisname

I owe many thousands of dollars in federal taxes this year, not fun

user41796

5:08 PM

@enderland I disagree - the sooner you get one setup, the easier it is. Converting all the beneficiary information over is a royal pain

whatsisname

@MichaelT: so......the united states?

enderland

I got an unexpectedly large refund last year (well over 1/2 my federal taxes) due to some shenanagins at the end of the year

user114359

I am bitter because I not only pay taxes, but also child support. It feels like a cartoon where I am falling down a mile-high ravine, bouncing back and forth between jagged rocks on both sides.

Ampt

@MichaelT You work in the DoC?

durron597

@MichaelT attn.com/stories/941/who-profits-from-prisoners

enderland

5:09 PM

@Ampt how have you missed this ?

user15026

Taxes sound so much more complicated in the US

Ampt

I just binge watched Orange is the New Black

@enderland I knew he got a gubberment type job

didn't know it was DoC

enderland

@AshleyNunn eh, it depends I guess

user41796

@Snowman But they are separate aspects. And what you pay in support should be taken off of your above-the-cut-line income statement IIRC

user55340

@Ampt programmer and plumber of data. I fix the clogs and make it so data from here goes there.

user41796

5:10 PM

@AshleyNunn They can be if you want to minimize how much you pay

durron597

@Ampt While sitting through pointless client meetings?

Ampt

@durron597 when else?

user15026

@Ampt What did you think of it?

whatsisname

They get more complicated the more cashmoney you have

Ampt

@AshleyNunn SO good. did NOT expect to get sucked into a world I have 0 relation with

user114359

5:11 PM

@GlenH7 nope, unfortunately. CS takes my gross pay, subtracts income tax withholding, and I pay on the rest. I can't deduct it, either.

Ampt

but it was really, really good

I don't even know anyone who's been in prison

enderland

@GlenH7 kinda, I did all my charitable donatino for 2015 on Dec30,2014 :P

whatsisname

for nearly 70% of americans, it's a pretty simple affair

enderland

there's a lot of straightforward ways

user114359

@GlenH7 which really sucks because other people can deduct certain child expenses such as daycare.

user15026

5:11 PM

@Ampt It's not the best representation of actual prison, but it is a good show.

user15026

And season 3 shows up june 12 :D

user41796

@Snowman That does stink, yes. Sorry to hear it.

Ampt

Yeah I figured it wasn't, but that's cool

still a fun show

durron597

@Ampt Yeah Captain Janeway makes a great insane Russian cook

user114359

Meh, I am okay. It is a lot of headaches but at least I'm not living under a bridge.

Ampt

5:12 PM

@durron597 Right?! I had to look her up because I knew I had seen her somewhere

user55340

@durron597 there is prison labor (badger systems industry iirc), but that is more of the "help learn a trade" than make money.

user15026

@durron597 See, I've never watched Voyager, so it will be interesting to go from Red to Janeway :P

whatsisname

whats also weak is that the government knows enough to just send a bill or check to probably 3/4 or more of americans, and save humanity the wasted time of filling out tax forms

enderland

@whatsisname heh yeah. AMURICA.

durron597

@AshleyNunn Yeah you haven't missed much. I only recommend voyager to young boys who get turned on by sexy borgs

whatsisname

5:13 PM

but companies like Intuit lobby the shit out of the government to ensure that never happens

enderland

I benefit since I undersatnd how my taxes work and do what I can to optimize my tax situation

Ampt

mfw red is janeway

user15026

@durron597 I figure @WorldEngineer and I will get to it eventually maybe. We're watching DS9 ringhtnow

Ampt

get it? Prison reference?!

user55340

Tax form in Japan fits on a 3x5 card.

Ampt

5:14 PM

Ahhhh It's good to be hilarious

whatsisname

crossed with the less intelligent types that think the man computing them will somehow be an assault on our liberty, despite them already doing it for 50 years

durron597

@AshleyNunn DS9 is much, much better than voyager.

Robert Harvey

OK, I have a couple of career-related questions. I'll ask the simple one first.

user15026

@durron597 I am enjoying DS9 more than I thought. Took me a bit to get into after binging so much TNG

Robert Harvey

I have a 30 minute coding interview coming up. What should I bone up on?

user55340

5:15 PM

Ds9 had a multi season arc. Voyager was a return to TOS style.

whatsisname

nothing, just wing it

@RobertHarvey coding

Pfft.

it's friday afternoon. you practically asked for this

@durron597 hey! it's my birthday. I can make terribly jokes if I want to

Robert Harvey

5:15 PM

Now I see why we don't allow career advice questions on Programmers.

enderland

@Ampt you want him to look up the keyword this ?

user15026

@Ampt Yay birthday!

Ampt

@enderland only the JS version is valid

durron597

@AshleyNunn I'm skeptical that it's actually his birthday.

user41796

@RobertHarvey Ask them for their preferred language

Robert Harvey

5:16 PM

I already know the preferred language.

Ampt

@durron597 ouch, no faith.

Robert Harvey

My second question. Let's say, hypothetically, that I chose the wrong degree (IT instead of CS). How could I get a rudimentary CS education in the shortest possible time?

Ampt

masters in CS maybe?

pretty common

enderland

@RobertHarvey following for relevance

Robert Harvey

I already have an MBA.

Ampt

5:17 PM

actually masters in Software Engineering. It's made for CS types who got an undergrad in the 80s

user55340

What in cs do you want to know?

user15026

@durron597 It's an excuse for cake, I'll go with it

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT Enough to pass these infernal programming tests.

whatsisname

@RobertHarvey: forget about the "CS education" aspect, what sort of skills do you need to learn?

Robert Harvey

19 secs ago, by Robert Harvey

@MichaelT Enough to pass these infernal programming tests.

user55340

5:18 PM

shop.oreilly.com/product/mobile/0636920025481.do

whatsisname

"infernal programming tests" can encompass a gazillion different topics

psr

@enderland An embedded system with V8 as a core part of the OS and everything running over that using JavaScript. When you add hardware you get the drivers via npm.

whatsisname

which aren't necessarily taught in "CS education"

Ampt

@AshleyNunn dang, you guys are harsh

user15026

@Ampt Hey, I was all yay, and still am, but even if it is pretend-@Ampt-birthday we can still have cake.

Robert Harvey

5:19 PM

@MichaelT Thanks.

durron597

@Ampt Hey man, what do you expect when you pull out the "It's my birthday... I can make terrible jokes if I want to, terrible jokes if I want to, terrible jokes if I want to... you'd make terrible jokes too if it was your birthday, too!"

(If it actually is your birthday... I'm sorry :-P Happy Birthday!)

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT Ack. Ruby. :P

user55340

Think of it as "I can code in that hipster thing too"

Robert Harvey

Right.

durron597

(See, I make terrible jokes every day of the year. And I don't apologize for it in the least)

Robert Harvey

5:21 PM

OK, got the book. I'll go through it this weekend.

user55340

Well disciplined ruby code isn't bad. It's when you have people doing things with it that make it unreasonable is where the problems are.

Robert Harvey

Being too clever.

Ampt

@AshleyNunn I demand cupcakes!

user55340

It's just very easy to do unreasonable things in ruby.

durron597

@MichaelT Obligatory WAT

Robert Harvey

5:23 PM

@MichaelT You mean like basing your entire business on Ruby on Rails, and then dumping it for something else when you find that your RoR site won't scale?

whatsisname

lunch time, bbl

user55340

Ruby Conf 2011 Keeping Ruby Reasonable by Joshua Ballanco

►

user55340

Reasoning has special meaning. It means "I can look at code and know what it does"

user55340

Operator overloading in c++ can make that language unreasonable.

user55340

There are things in ruby that make it very easy to write code you can't reason about.

user114359

5:26 PM

@MichaelT Operator overloading in C++ should only be used for intuitive purposes anyway, not using operator+ to prompt the user for input.

Robert Harvey

@durron597 Strangest audience laughter ever.

user114359

I'm going through some Daily WTFs that I missed. They never fail to deliver: http://thedailywtf.com/articles/are-you-down-with-php-.
"PHP often gets a bad rap. A lot of the time, that’s because it’s used by developers that don’t know what they’re doing, just like there’s nothing inherently wrong with spandex, but there are times, places and people where it is inappropriate."

user55340

If you stick to a sensible subset of ruby's functionality it is not a bad language.

Robert Harvey

Oh, no. Another "just stick to the sensible subset" language.

user55340

Note the two WAT languages are ruby and JavaScript.

user15026

5:29 PM

user55340

@gnat you know if you ask for "cons and pros" instead of "pros and cons" that makes it completely different.

Robert Harvey

Different completely.

user55340

recommended reading: What is the problem with “Pros and Cons”? — gnat 1 hour ago

user55340

Hi gnat, thanks for answering, but I looking for the con's and pro's of having a one server instance that used by all the developer for testing — juliusgutierrez 42 mins ago

durron597

@MichaelT He said cons and pros in the original question, too. DUH

enderland

5:33 PM

lol

user41796

I think I need more close votes.

user41796

I should open an MSE question about the ~~pros and cons~~ cons and pros of getting more close votes

user114359

durron597

@GlenH7 I would add a +500 bounty (half my MSE rep) to MichaelT's question if I thought it would do any good

user55340

Which one?

user55340

5:37 PM

Btw 1017 rep from 10k MSE.

durron597

30

Q: Refund close votes for questions deleted on the same day

When a question is deleted the same vote-day as it was closed, refund the close votes cast on the question. There are three situations where this comes up: Question has a close vote or two, a comment tells the OP that this is off topic (or about issues with the question) and the OP self delete...

feature-request vote-to-close deleted-questions

user41796

@MichaelT is that l33t for lolz?

user55340

Ahh. Yep. That one.

user55340

Already did a +50 on that one.

durron597

@MichaelT I know you did

And it didn't even get a comment from Tim or Shog or anyone else so why would 500 be any different? They don't care about rep

user41796

5:39 PM

Bounties are good for attracting attention from other MSE denizens but has inconsequential effect on SE employees

user55340

The activity is what counts.

user55340

What would be useful would be for a user of workplace, or other site with similar "lots closed and deleted same day" would pipe up with a supporting answer.

durron597

@MichaelT Any active, high visibility The Workplace users in this room?

Ampt

Other than a mod?

user114359

@durron597 enderland

user55340

5:43 PM

He has a blue name.

user55340

More of something to ask in their chat room.

user114359