English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

8:00 PM

Ditto.

Two fire trucks just arrived at the sex place at the canal around the corner. But thankfully it was nothing serious, perhaps some short-circuited S&M tourists.

I can imagine it's no fun, being tied up and gagged when the lights go out.

Robusto

@Cerberus — I'm sure some would enjoy that.

Spare Oom

I don't think I'd like being gagged at all.

Cerberus

I suppose it adds to the thrill.

Jez

It's so easy to scare the US. Fukushima: statistically insignificant radiation level rise, and news networks are talking about how to duct tape your house up. If China wanted to invade, they need only fart in California and the people would come out with the white flag.

The deadliest earthquake in China killed a million people

Robusto

8:11 PM

@Jez — Which is statistically insignificant. A rounding error, considering their population.

Cerberus

@Jez Agreed.

Which EQ was that?

Jez

1556 Shaanxi earthquake

The 1556 Shaanxi earthquake () or Jiajing earthquake () was a catastrophic earthquake and is also the deadliest earthquake on record, killing approximately 830,000 people. An -wide area was destroyed, and in some counties 60% of the population was killed. Most of the population in the area at the time lived in yaodongs, artificial caves in loess cliffs, many of which collapsed during the catastrophe with great loss of life. Geography The Shaanxi earthquake's epicenter was in the Wei River Valley in Shaanxi Province, near the cities of Huaxian, Weinan and Huayin. In Huaxian, every single b...

Protip: don't live in loess cliff caves

Cerberus

Look where that article brought me:

Nestorian Stele

The Nestorian Stele (also known as the Nestorian Stone, Nestorian Monument, or Nestorian Tablet) is a Tang Chinese stele erected in 781 that documents 150 years of history of early Christianity in China. It is a 279-cm tall limestone block with text in both Chinese and Syriac, describing the existence of Christian communities in several cities in northern China. It reveals that the initial Nestorian Christian church had met recognition by the Tang Emperor Taizong, due to efforts of the Christian missionary Alopen (Chinese: 阿罗本 pinyin: Āluóběn) in 635. Buried in 845, probably during rel...

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Wow, they took a 830k hit 500 years ago and still managed to get to 2bn people?

Cerberus

Very interesting.

I had no idea Christianity had already spread to China during the Tang.

Spare Oom

8:21 PM

Cool.

Cerberus

And they called it the Roman religion.

Sort of.

Jez

@Cerberus I bet it hadn't spread to 99% of China

Cerberus

@Jez You mean 99 % of the people? Probably not. But at least it found a favourable ear at court.

simchona

dupe

0

Q: Plural and singular use Are there or Is there

Sometimes while I am making a question to post here and there. I hesitate whether I should use Are there or Is there. Are there any words I can reference ? Is there any word I can reference ? At that moment, my mind is messed up wondering which one should be used ?

Matt Ellen Д

adupe

simchona

8:30 PM

@Reg, is there any way to make this user accept answers? He's at a 10% rate

Also: gen ref

-1

Q: Let go, refuse and decline

I'd like to know how the following are different: I let go of you I refuse you I decline you Are there other verbs or phrases which are similar in meaning to these?

meaning word-choice sentence

Robusto

@simchona — Stop answering his questions.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

You can't force anyone to accept, no.

@simchona I fail to see how that's a dupe of that other question, though.

Which is not to say that it's answerable...

simchona

@RegDwightѬſ道 It relates to the subject/verb agreement of what comes after (or before) "there"

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I don't think he's asking about the agreement. He's got his agreement just fine.

aedia λ

@simchona Both the examples agree so I'm not sure that's what he's asking. It seems more like he doesn't know how many words he wants.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

8:35 PM

He's asking whether "is there any car" is preferable over "are there any cars", or vice versa.

simchona

@aediaλ In that case, I'm not going into his head. He's like vgv all over again

Wait... how can we tell him when he means plural?

aedia λ

The answer is sometimes.

Matt Ellen Д

the same way we can make him accept answers. Rendition

RegDwight Ѭſ道

If that's a purely stylistic question, you can comment to that extent and vote to close.

I am trying to think of situations where it isn't.

But yeah, he does have a history of poor questions (and answers).

Cerberus

Are stylistic questions off topic now?

Ugh.

Matt Ellen Д

8:38 PM

Questions about if questions are off topic are off topic

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus I did say "can" rather than "must" and I did say that I refrain from voting myself for the time being.

I still haven't given up the hope of someone getting the Reversal badge.

Matt Ellen Д

I've just heard: Questions are off topic

Cerberus

Right, but it seems some people find stylistic questions off topic.

That's one half of the questions I like.

Robusto

@Cerberus — Stylish doggy.

Matt Ellen Д

(I'll be serious for a moment) It does depend on how people perceive the site. Stylistic questions can be very subjective, and SE doesn't handle subjective well, so those types of question can get marked as off topic.

Cerberus

8:43 PM

@Robusto Look who's talking. Do you enjoy the single-word requests or the "what is the difference between" questions?

Robusto

@Cerberus — How are you getting offended at being called stylish?

Matt Ellen Д

So if the site is perceived as a strict SE site, then stylistic questions will typically be off tpoic

Cerberus

@MattEllenД A good answer should encapsulate this subjectivity, by saying "hey, style guides disagree, and you will find it here but not there in literature", or something like that.

Matt Ellen Д

questions about tpoic are on topic

Cerberus

@Robusto Merely returning the compliment. Like a stick. It's what dogs do.

aedia λ

8:45 PM

@Cerberus If there's context in the question and it can be discussed with any evidence at all about how different speakers would accept or not accept the differences, I don't mind them. I like discussing dialect and register. I just don't like ones like this; it's like asking if you should wear black or brown shoes without us knowing the rest of your outfit or situation.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus It's not that simple. Having one answer saying "this is purely a stylistic issue" is perfectly fine, and we have a few of such questions open. However, having a bunch of answers "this is a stylistic issue and you should use X", "this is a stylistic issue and you should use Y", "this is a stylistic issue and you should use Z" is a different thing entirely as it amounts to a random poll of a random group of people.

Robusto

So, you are quite fetching, in a stylistic way.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus Go ahead and post such answers. I will be the first one to upvote them, and have in the past.

Cerberus

@aediaλ Right, I agree, more context is needed. But it is rather the quality of the question than the topic that's the problem. And if there is no evidence at all for either right or wrong, then isn't that an answer too? "There is no evidence, so it is presumed that it will be OK." I'd find that a useful answer, as a visitor: "if these guys can't find any evidence, that shows it isn't clearly wrong, so perhaps I will use it". If it were closed, it would be useless to anyone.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

"But it is rather the quality of the question than the topic that's the problem" is kind of what I'm saying all along.

Cerberus

8:49 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Well, then those answers aren't very good. On the other hand, what if answer Y gets loads of votes? Doesn't that say something? That would be some kind of a useful poll among "experts", or at least people interested in the language.

Matt Ellen Д

I think it's also a choice about if we want a place where we have a noticeable amount of questions where the answer is "no one knows"

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Then why is everybody saying "off topic"?

@MattEllenД I think those can be great! Such an answer is very informative to the visitor.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus Incidentally, this question of yours highlights the very problem with that question.

Cerberus

@Robusto Thanks! So I am.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Oh?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

We have like four people here, and like one of them ever said "off topic". But you perceive it as "everybody says 'off topic'".

And that's precisely what people will take away from online polls.

Matt Ellen Д

8:51 PM

@Cerberus I think they could be good, so long as the answers are actually informative and not just "no one knows". I think trite answers are terrible

aedia λ

@Cerberus 'Cause only Reg had the chutzpah and the mindreading skillz to edit the question.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 I seemed to hear more people saying that, on different occasions.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus Ah, well, if you're talking about the big picture, that's something different entirely.

Cerberus

@MattEllenД Those aren't great, but still informative, as a negative answer.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

But still, as I said, we do have a whole lot of style question open.

It's just that in those cases we have to be doubly careful about what our answers actually say.

Cerberus

8:54 PM

Yes. That's what makes it so incomprehensible to me: why do people say one stylistic question is off topic because it is stylistic, but fail to complain about others?

Oh, well.

Matt Ellen Д

@Cerberus I don't count "no one knows" as informative. to me it's just saying "you wanna know? join the club!" it doesn't help, in fact I would say that it hinders because if people are searching and come across an authoritative source (like us) saying that, they will give up. Even if there is an answer elsewhere, they will give up because we say so.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

You will know that I have argued time and again that even the most basic/stupid/meh question can be turned into a fountain of knowledge by providing great answers.

It's still the same question, though.

So if a question attracts poor answers, we must either do better, or kill it.

It's as simple as that.

Cerberus

@MattEllenД Well, I am assuming that, if we cannot find it, hardly anyone can! So it would give an accurate picture. Unless few people look at the question at all...

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus Not everyone looks at every question ever. You don't. I don't. So please don't complain that others don't, either.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 I'm not so sure about that. In any case, I don't hear people reasoning that way, that a question should be judged by the quality of its answers.

Matt Ellen Д

8:56 PM

@Cerberus Aye. Well maybe. We are the best :)

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 I wasn't complaining at all; I was conceding a fair point to Matt.

Jez

erm... how are you supposed to pronounce "Chutzpah"?

Cerberus

@MattEllenД Indeed!

Jez

I would've pronounced it like Michelle Bachmann

Cerberus

I don't know... is it Jewish?

Matt Ellen Д

8:58 PM

ch like j in spanish?

Jez

Yiddish yeah

Robusto

Gotta motor. Later.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

More like the ch in German.

Matt Ellen Д

cya @Robusto

Jez

I've only ever heard it pronounched tchutspah

simchona

8:59 PM

@Jez Goes with Tchanookuh

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus You don't have it in Dutch? The Germans have it in German.

simchona

Looks like FF is getting really annoyed with SU

Jez

@simchona Again, I'm not getting it

how did she pronounce it wrongly?

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 I've never heard of it, except vaguely in English!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Chuzpe

Chuzpe [], auch Chutzpe (aus dem jiddischen חוצפה [chùtzpe] von hebräisch חצפה [chuzpà] für „Frechheit, Dreistigkeit, Unverschämtheit“ entlehnt) ist eine Mischung aus zielgerichteter, intelligenter Unverschämtheit, charmanter Penetranz und unwiderstehlicher Dreistigkeit. Im Hebräischen enthält der Begriff eine negative Bewertung für jemanden, der die Grenzen von Höflichkeit und/oder Anstand aus egoistischen Motiven überschreitet. Im Jiddischen und in den meisten europäischen Sprachen schwingt Anerkennung für eine Form sozialer Unerschrockenheit mit. Hier spricht man insbesondere von Chuz...

Matt Ellen Д

9:01 PM

@Jez I imagine it should be pronounced hutspah but with a lot of back of the mouth tongue reverberation on the first h and hut is not hut

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Wikipedia has articles in a dozen languages. Wiktionary has sound files and IPA and SAMPA and everything.

It would appear that in AE, a simple [h] is perfectly fine.

Cerberus

We have Gotspe!

Jez

oh. well i downvoted the youtube vid. wasnt a major mispronunciation and apparently all Americans mispronounce it the same.

Cerberus

I didn't know it was the same word.

aedia λ

@Jez We do not!

oxfordadvancedlearnersdictionary.com/dictionary/chutzpah

RegDwight Ѭſ道

9:03 PM

It's war! BRB

Spare Oom

I don't pronounce it like the video. @RegDwight's explanation sounds good to me.

aedia λ

I say like the top right. Ish.

simchona

WTF

0

Q: Use of word Imagine/Imaginative/Imagined/Imagining

In order to describe a person{maybe a patient} who always imagines things that are unreal, will the term "imagine" like I use it as follows be in a good place ? He always imagines about the immense deserted field, all of his imagined people are nice to think about. His imagined scenes rem...

word-choice meaning-in-context

aedia λ

@Jez It's not the vowel quality that matters; it's her "ch" that's egregious.

Spare Oom

@aediaλ I don't say it quite like those examples. More like top left, though, but in a girly voice. :)

Matt Ellen Д

9:06 PM

there is no ch in chutzpah

Jez

@aedia I would've pronounced it the same way...

I'm not bothering with a gutteral 'r', it does your throat in

Spare Oom