English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2014-07-13 (page 5 of 7)

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3:00 PM

What do you mean by "version build"?

Adithya Chakilam

version,build,release These are generally used in softwares

Thank you for the commas :)

Adithya Chakilam

pleasure.. :P

Also since they are "generally used in softwares" there is context.

Adithya Chakilam

k. any clean difference u know?

3:04 PM

no idea

@Cerberus "We'll pick up this conversation when I come back." doesn't look wrong. And certainly not unidiomatic as evidenced by the large number of results "we'll pick up this conversation" collects on Google.

Adithya Chakilam

where are u from skullpat?

also on Google books

from the blackhole

Adithya Chakilam

ooh really?

3:07 PM

yep

Adithya Chakilam

enjoying the smell of it?

:P

...and I don't think many of those end with "left off"

user image

@Alraxite Well, it is colloquial anyway, so who knows what people will say? I wouldn't.

Right. But it isn't wrong.

3:21 PM

"Wrong" is not a definite term.

People also say "like" all the time.

@Alraxite So I guess your point is that it doesn't make sense to call it "wrong" when some people will use it that way. I suppose you have a point. If @Meysam wants to use it that way colloquially, many people will probably not bat an eyelid.

Yes. Many people use it. So it is accepted usage.

is my way accepted?

Who decides what is "accepted"?

Please migrate to meta:

4

Q: Word for someone who wants to find a single word to describe a relatively obscure concept, and posts such questions on internet boards?

Going meta... As the title says, Word for someone who wants to find a single word to describe a relatively obscure concept, and posts such questions on internet boards?

single-word-requests

@Cerberus If a lot of people use it, it is accepted usage.

And we're kind of digressing.

I just wanted to say that it isn't unidiomatic.

3:29 PM

When I get back is more commonly said than when I come back.

OK.

@skullpatrol Funny you don’t have a Calcutta accent when you type.

But that doesn't change what I said.

@Alraxite That would not be my definition.

@skullpatrol What are softwares?

3:32 PM

@Cerberus Accepted usage by definition means usage that is accepted. In the context we're talking, it means usage that is accepted by most people.

What is your definition?

@Alraxite If a lot of people use something, then a lot of people use something. That doesn’t mean that a possibly non-overlapping lot of people don’t consider it unacceptable.

@tchrist no idea

I said most.

Give a concrete example.

I'm not sure what you mean. If some expression is used by most native speakers of a language, then that expression is accepted usage by them. What is there to disagree?

3:36 PM

Well, that’s no different than saying that if some expression is used by seventeen native speakers, then that expression is acceptable to those seventeen.

In other words, I don’t see what useful purpose that observation can be put to.

And without a concrete example or five, it is perilous to make sweeping statements of generality.

I confess I may not be understanding the point here.

Nor what contention there appears to be.

Good morning, @Kit.

Good morning, @tchrist.

Such as remains to you.

I'm off to market presently.

Go easy on the fat pigs today, eh? :)

@tchrist OK. If some expression is used by most native speakers of a language, then that expression is considered accepted usage in that language. Now OK?

3:40 PM

Not especially, no.

But again, I would really prefer concretion here.

How do you tell what is correct in English and what not?

I don't know how to be more concrete.

I look it up on the golden tablets the angel brought, and if it is there, then it is ok.

I'm not even sure why there is a need to disagree.

@Alraxite That is one definition. Another is that it is accepted by people who are looked at as examples of proper style.

Because I think you’re driving for the "acceptability" of some sort of formally ungrammatical construction that would not be tolerated in formal written English.

But you won’t say what.

So I am not sure.

3:43 PM

I don't often eat pigs. I don't often eat meat generally.

It is more like a colloquial expression, "we'll pick up our conversation".

Although last week was a lot of chicken.

@KitFox I believe in the Catch-and-Release program regarding meat.

hahaha

@Alraxite How "formal" or "informal" do you want to get?

3:44 PM

I'm the kind of girl who really doesn't want to know anything about food processing.

@Alraxite You can't really: "correctness" is a fluid concept.

@KitFox Then don’t eat raw hamburger.

@Cerberus Right. I've no problems with that definition. But for the sentence we were talking about, I think most experts would agree that it is not wrong nor unidiomatic.

But, as such, I avoid things that are processed. Mostly.

Unless it is made of sashimi-grade tuna or salmon or something.

3:45 PM

And you know that because there are many results on Google Books.

I can't eat fish.

Oh, really? I’m sorry to have suggested it then. Anaphylaxis?

@Alraxite "Experts" is a bit odd when it is about style...

@tchrist No, it makes me vomit profusely.

Hm.

3:46 PM

Which is odd because I remember liking and eating tuna when I was a girl.

But then it might have actually been dolphin, I suppose.

is the bot in for repair?

Mahi-mahi is dolphin.

Oh, she's in the back room. She's probably having connection difficulties.

@KitFox Or man overboard.

I'll move her. brb

3:48 PM

@Alraxite @Cerberus Are you really still quibbling about “We’ll pick this up again once I get back” or whatever it was?

I don't know any more!

@Cerberus OK. Do you have something specific that you disagree about my claims about the sentence "We'll pick up our conversation when we come back."? I said it is not undiomatic and that it is not wrong. Wrong is an unambiguous term, sure. But here, I think we can both agree what we mean.

@tchrist I'm just typing disagreeing comments on auto-pilot!

@tchrist No, this conversation is unnecessarily digressing.

If there needs to be a conversation, it should be about that sentence.

@Cerberus What’s the word for typing comments of disagreement on auto-pilot?

3:50 PM

@Alraxite I don't think "wrong" is unambiguous at all...I have conceded that probably some people will say the shortened form. I don't think I am capable of any more concessions today!

@tchrist No.

@tchrist knee jerk?

@skullpatrol Not much, thanks.

@Cerberus Shortened form?

> We shall resume our current discussion upon our return.

What’s the unshortened form?

!!refresh

!!hi

@KitFox Yo.

@KitFox This is how kitsox gets her shower every morning.

3:52 PM

!!summon 8795

@Cerberus Well, okay. I was just saying that it certainly is used by a lot of experts in English.

casts Circle of Protection from Bot, 10' radius

@Alraxite Let's return to the original sentence..

@skullpatrol Was there an alternative proposed?

@tchrist Why are you protecting yourself from the bot?

3:53 PM

@Alraxite I will still not concede that there is such a thing as an "expert in English", but no matter.

@KitFox Because of his sex change.

1 hour ago, by Meysam

@skullpatrol unum, this the whole text: "We've been friends for 43 years. Every few years, we meet for a few hours, and pick right back up"

@Cerberus Fine. I'll also make that claim about native speakers of the language.

Whoa, that’s a different sentence!

Yes, it is.

3:54 PM

Let us start at the start

@tchrist "Whenever we meet, our friendship is such that we pick right up [where we left off]".

Or something like that, was the original example.

To me, it sounds bleh without the "where we left off".

@Kit, I didn’t cast a migration-to-meta vote on the question that even says it’s meta because I’m out of close votes for the day, not because I’m lazy or don’t think it should be considered a migration candidate.

In that case, I'd also like "where we left off".

@Alraxite shrugs disagreeingly

Look what you did! You have worn out my disagreement!

@Cerberus Agreed.

3:56 PM

Well, most of the results you get on Google Books are books written by native speakers.

So, I said that.

@Cerberus :P

@Alraxite What, you’re arguing about whether an arbitrary sentence can reasonably end with and pick right back up irrespective of what precedes it?

This is not an argument.

This is a complaint.

You’ve come to the wrong room, I fear.

cornbread ninja

NO. The original sentence was, "We'll pick up this conversation when I come back."

No more no less.

@tchrist OK so, in general, I want something like "where we left off" or "back". But Alraxite gave another example where it was perhaps not as necessary. I still didn't like it, but he kept pressing his point that many people used it like that. Which I did not contest.

Was there an alternative proposed to that?

3:59 PM

1 hour ago, by Meysam

@skullpatrol unum, this the whole text: "We've been friends for 43 years. Every few years, we meet for a few hours, and pick right back up"

1 hour ago, by Meysam

Does this have the same meaning? " Every few years, we meet for a few hours, and pick up"

The original example.

@Cerberus Well, my evidence was that there are many results on google which use that sentence.

Those feel unfinished.

@skullpatrol If you three times split a strand of hair the long way not the short way, how many strands of hair are you left with poking through your visor?

If you disagree that that doesn't constitute as reasonable evidence, then you may say that.

In which case, I won't be able to contest your doubt.

@tchrist how many?

I was assuming we can trust the results given by Google.

That's all.

4:03 PM

@skullpatrol None, because your visor is hairproof and it wasn’t your hair to start with.

user image

@Alraxite This is not the hill to die on.

@Alraxite Well, in general, we cannot "trust" Google.

jinx

Of course it depends on what you're looking for.

But, for corpus research, I would say "no", or "bleh" at best.

4:05 PM

@terdon link :)

5

I guess it works better for colloquialisms than anything else.

I’m not perfectly comfortable with that sentence pair, particularly the latter sentence. Context is everything, however.

@JohanLarsson !!!

Those are the best!

And I don’t believe that a string search in Google will tell you one blinking thing.

user image

user image

From @JohanLarsson 's link.

4:09 PM

@Cerberus Why is there an annular ring-section in the center of that pie?

OCD doesn't always mean being anal-retentive

@tchrist Don't even get me started!!

@Alraxite Is that a generally accepted opinion or an expert one?

@Alraxite trusting Google is anal retentive :-)

after all it is only a search engine

well, I was talking about google books more specifically, but no matter

4:12 PM

@skullpatrol Please don’t tell Google that. They think it is a marketing machine.

Has anyone seen Jasper online?

Not me.

I am Jasper

lol

@Alraxite Books is indeed somewhat better.

@tchrist Why is there a superfluous pleonasm in that line?

@Zoe Not since he grabbed his bat and ball and went home to sulk in his hot tub for a while.

@Cerberus Intensification.

And because I didn’t want you to confuse 2D rings from 3D ones.

4:15 PM

@tchrist And when was that?

@Cerberus Good to hear!

A 3D ring would be a torus, not a cilinder.

@Zoe Some few weeks ago now, I believe.

This must be his longest hiatus.

@tchrist I just watched Dr. Phil's show about OCD.

@tchrist Annular means no more than "ringy".

@skullpatrol Are you sure?

4:16 PM

@Cerberus I know.

@Cerberus I think he is joking.

@Cerberus lol

That's quite an intensive intesification, then!

@skullpatrol QED.

@Alraxite He reads the logs sometimes. This is the sort of thing he lives for. Is that healthy to feed?

Let's hope @Jasper comes back again soon.

4:17 PM

he will

Yes.

@tchrist It isn't.

@Cerberus I don't think that @ will do anything.

I hope so, he is not replying my msgs though. I'm kinda worried after I watched the Dr. Phil show on the world of OCD

he is trying his best

@Alraxite I know.

@Zoe Hmm e-mail?

4:20 PM

@Zoe Depends on what sort of missives you’re sending him. Are these proper epistles or merely twitterings?

mental illness is worse, in some ways, than physical pain...

@tchrist We usually msg some, it's all normal everyday stuff and one day he just stopped. And then I thought maybe it's the OCD and I should wait for a few days but he never replies anymore and I am starting to feel like I should call. What if someone took the phone from him or he is in the hospital or something? argh

@Zoe In that case, that person would talk to you. You can then tell them to hand over the phone to Jasper.

So, I think calling is a good idea.

@Cerberus I could try that I guess. But if he wont or cant reply, i doubt he has access to a computer though

@Alraxite It's 12:23 am here though now.

let him reach out to you

4:23 PM

@Zoe You have his phone number?

I never thought OCD was that bad until I saw the dr. phil show.

@Cerberus I do

Ah OK.

dr, phil is a quack

I'm just worried man.

@skullpatrol There are more truths than duck sounds on his shows

then he should be doing research

4:25 PM

You should call him tomorrow.

not TV shows

If not today.

like Opra

too much drama

skull, I don't think the credibility of dr. phil is relevant here

he made you worry

4:26 PM

@Alraxite I know right. I hope I will.

@skullpatrol Dr. Phil opened my eyes to how bad OCD can get that I was ignorant to.

now you will watch his show regularly

Yes, it can be pretty bad.

@skullpatrol Well, someone can be logical without needing a degree or citations to back them up. Besides, there are life stories on his shows. I only watch the titles that are interesting.

Jasper is an adult.

@skullpatrol with OCD

I always thought OCD is exclusive to being a neatfreak but apparently its not so

4:29 PM

lots of people have problems in this world

@Zoe Every human being has a cross or two to bear.

if he wants help let him ask

He probably won't do that.

7 mins ago, by skullpatrol

let him reach out to you

He probably won't do that either.

4:31 PM

Thats like waiting for a kid with autism to ask for help.

@Alraxite then he can not be helped

It's not about me butting in or something, I mean, I have to think if msging me messed up his routine or something

@skullpatrol No, he can be.

@Zoe he knows that

skull, I think you need to recognise that OCD is an actual illness

4:32 PM

@Zoe Most likely not the case.

Well, I don't know what you were messaging him.

@Alraxite I hope not

@Zoe I know it is

But still unlikely.

@Zoe I support you.

alcoholism is an illness too

4:34 PM

@skullpatrol Well, drinking alcohol is a choice, being addicted to it becomes a consequence. When someone is an alcoholic, we stop with the why and start with how to help.

can you help an alcoholic who will not stop drinking?

Yes, you can. But more importantly, alcoholism bears no analogy to OCD.

can you help someone who will not stop feeling sorry for themself?

15 mins ago, by skullpatrol

mental illness is worse, in some ways, than physical pain...

Someone without the ability to let their brain's primitive cortex receive feedback from the frontal lobe should be helped by others instead of waiting for them to ask for help.

And I guess I left this out, but Jasper wants the OCD cured and he wants to go overseas to study

I know he does

4:37 PM

But the thing is, if you happen to overthink before u goto sleep at night, and u often tell urself u should stop thinking and just go to sleep, but somehow a few mins later, u start thinking again. It's all semi involuntary

he is a highly intelligent person

so, just because he cant stop his OCD, or someone cant stop their drinking, doesnt mean people should not voluntarily help them!

I have watched his math answers with amazement sometimes :-O

its like trying to course correct ur own muscle memory. it is almost impossible because you yourself wont even realise it until someone points it out "your doing it again"

so yes, if people are in the position to help someone with an involuntary illness (like OCD), they should.

@Cerberus Thank you!

@skullpatrol That's okay

!!Youtube listen to your heart

4:47 PM

0

Q: Improvement on James while John had had

You guys may be familiar with the sentence James while John had had had had had had had had had had had the better effect on the teacher. I was just thinking about this, and wondered, couldn't it be improved upon by adding one more had? Something like: James just as John had had had had...

Must be Sunday.

And that's actually the best question I have seen all day.

It was sunday here. I am laughing with that qns. Seriously?!

5:12 PM

@Zoe @Alraxite I apologise if I seem insensitive.

@skullpatrol Don't fret it. Anyway, he finally replied me!!

@TimLymington You’re right. I was momentarily trying to figure out what raspberry compôtes have to do with legalese. However, after carefully sifting through the nearest glossary of Latin phrases used jurisprudentially, I could find none that included Rubus in them. This should be shuffled off to ELL. — tchrist 1 min ago

@Zoe :D

A trifling matter, to be sure. :)

@skullpatrol Oh, no. You weren't. You just made a point we disagreed with.

@Zoe On phone?

5:17 PM

@Alraxite Yea phone msg. Well, as they say, third time's the charm.

So, how is he?

Did he say anything about that?

@Alraxite I was at first suspicious maybe it isn't him and then he said he was gonna watch the world cup so I think maybe watching tv is one of his routine because he told me he needed to watch tv before

@Alraxite He say it's better if he spends less time online, but didnt tell me how he arrived at that conclusion and i dont wanna ask it coz i dont wanna be intrusive

Was this a message as in an SMS or a phone call?

@Alraxite SMS

@Zoe Okay.

You should keep in touch with him. That'd be best for him

If he has someone to talk to.

5:21 PM

I will

he has started reading about Buddhism

@Zoe Like, does someone use his phone to message his own friends too?

I mean

why were you suspicious that that might not be him?

OK, that's perhaps a trivial matter.

It's really hard to tell if someone is not them if you're only messaging.

I don't know why I am even pursuing this line of conversation.

Nvm.

Well, for that, we will need a private room to talk about that. Anyway, I have been trained by a good mentor on profiling, cause, effect, reasoning and foresight so, I consider past present and alot of things when I make a judgement

is he still on medication?

@tchrist On which?

5:27 PM

@skullpatrol I don't know

8

Q: Word for someone who wants to find a single word to describe a relatively obscure concept, and posts such questions on internet boards?

Going meta... As the title says, Word for someone who wants to find a single word to describe a relatively obscure concept, and posts such questions on internet boards?

single-word-requests

... I suspect

Scope question: Am I allowed to ask "Why does this workdd mean X

Workdd?

Word?

Probably not. Depends on how you ask and what you want to know.

Argh sorry. Keyboard died, and while I was replacing the batteries it woke up enough just to hit enter....

Am I allowed to ask why does this word mean something completely different in a particular field? I know it means different things to different people, I am wondering how that came to be.

5:31 PM

@AndrewLeach Yes.

@Oddthinking What's the word?

nominal - the etymology is related to names, but in aerospace it means "as expected".

Nominal meaning normal.

I see.

I don't know the local rules well enough to know if asking that is within them.

Well, you could ask that if you gave the dictionary definition where you demonstrate the etymology and then show the research you've done to find out why 'nominal' is used differently in aerospace.

I just twenty minutes ago used "nominal to profile".

It's interesting in particular because nominal also has the sense of being symbolic, in name only, like a nominal fee for service.

You wouldn't want your systems to be symbolically OK, I wouldn't think.

5:35 PM

> A. adj. 1. Gram. Of the nature of, pertaining to, a noun or nouns. (See also quots.)
2. Belonging or pertaining to the nominalists; holding views akin to these. rare.
3. a. Of the nature of, consisting in, pertaining or relating to, a name or names (in distinction to things).
4. a. Existing in name only, in distinction to real or actual; merely named, stated, or expressed, without reference to reality or fact.
b. With limiting words, as mere(ly, only, but, or with implication of these, denoting entire contrast to something real or substantial.

There is an entry in OED3 for it (sense 6), but it gives no reason, just some citations. The earliest is 1961.

I wonder if it is related to nominal values for construction elements, e.g., a 2x4 is a nominal measurement. They are not actually 2x4.

> 1961 Amer. Speech XXXVI. 159 ― It is customary to describe the English nominal as consisting of a sequence of constituents: predeterminers, determiners, adjectives, the noun head, and finally certain postnominal modifiers, such as relative clauses.

So when you do a systems check, you don't care about the specific values, just that they are nominally within tolerance.

I bet that's it.

Anyway, it's worth the question, @Oddthinking.

@KitFox 4b. With limiting words, as mere(ly, only, but, or with implication of these, denoting entire contrast to something real or substantial.

5:38 PM

I suppose kind of. It's just easier to say 2x4 than 1-1/2 x 3-1/2.

@tchrist I'm not convinced that matches.

I shouldn't confuse you.

It must be worth a question.

:-)

@KitFox Cheers.

@AndrewLeach I think so. I'm just guessing.

It might not be related to that at all.

5:40 PM

@AndrewLeach Oh I see, yes, sense 6 seems to be the operative one here.

> 6. (See quot. 1970.)
1966 Aviation Week & Space Technology 5 Dec. 30/1 ― The mission is to launch the 800-lb. Prime vehicle to effect a nominal re-entry at 400,000 ft. following injection at 26,000 fps.
1970 N. Armstrong et al. First on Moon vi. 124 ― An example of misuse is our use of the word ‘nominal’, which most of the English-speaking world interprets as meaning small, minimal-and we usually use it in the sense of being average or normal.
1970 R. Turnill Lang. Space 94 ― Nominal, a favourite word, meaning within prescribed limits; anything from ‘perfect’ to acceptable.

It probably is; but sense 6 in OED stands on its own. There isn't even anything which covers your 2x4.

It's this "meaning within prescribed limits".

It's the name of the product, the thing that is easy to say.

It's a nominal measurement, not an exact one.

Yes, I suppose so. But it seems to have sprung from nowhere. Even Armstrong admitted as much.

Lumber (American English) or timber (British English) is a collective term for harvested wood that has been manufactured into boards and planks. This process is part of something called wood production. Lumber is predominantly used for structural purposes but has many other uses as well. Lumber is classified as hardwood or softwood. Lumber is supplied either rough-sawn as it came off of the saw or surfaced on one, two, three or all four sides. Besides pulpwood, rough lumber is the raw material for furniture-making and other items requiring additional cutting and shaping. It is avail...

That links to the dimensional lumber section.

It refers to nominal v. actual measurements.

Hm, timber is just trees; lumber is what happens when you convert them into boards.

5:44 PM

It's still a step from "nominal"="this is what we call this" to "nominal"="this is what we expect".

You chop down the tree and it is stil timber. Once it’s turned into a finished product of 2x4s or whatnot it becomes lumber.

This is why lumberjacks yell Timber!. :)

It's still timber in BrE, not lumber.

@AndrewLeach I agree, that's why I think it's worth the ask.

The "meta" question isn't actually a question for Meta.

(Changing the subject!)

Is it a question for ELU?

It seems to be metaing.

It is a sarcastic commentary on the state of the world of SWRs.

Dressed up to make it appear to be something else.

"Sarcastic" is not the right word.

Hm.

Sardonic? Mocking? Parodic?

5:49 PM

I doubt it's "a real problem that you face".

No kidding.

I’m actually thinking of choosing tag prefs for ELU.

Although questions like this might defeat me:

0

Q: A word for one who loves only one girl throughout his life

Just like one wife man is called : monogamous. Is there any word for one who loves just one girl throughout his life time. For him one life, one girl matters. History has seen such people. Are such people's action(of loving just one) also described in words ?

meaning word-choice single-word-requests word-usage vocabulary

0

Q: How did nominal come to mean "within acceptable tolerances"?

The word "nominal" has a number of definitions. For example, the Free Dictionary gives seven: nom·i·nal (nm-nl) adj. a. Of, resembling, relating to, or consisting of a name or names. b. Assigned to or bearing a person's name: nominal shares. Existing in name only. Philosophy O...

etymology terminology

@tchrist You should ask that question.

@KitFox I’m sure it would be highly upvoted simply on its metametacity.

Still seems like charades.

And merely copying in a dictionary definition as an “answer” wholly bereft of original content is a charade.

Which is what SWRs seem to have devolved to.

There is no obvious right answer. It’s a guessing game with the winner being picked according to the asker’s opinion. A different asker would easily select a completely different answer.

The culture of doing it that way is too engrained to hope to change it. People kick and scream if you mention this.

@Rob will you watch the game?

5:59 PM

Did you mean to post this as a reply to my comment? You shouldn’t post comments as answers: answers are meant to answer the main question, which this doesn’t. (I realise your current reputation means you cannot comment on questions yet—though I rather thought you could comment at least on your own questions—but posting comments as answers is not the, well, answer.) — Janus Bahs Jacquet 39 mins ago

I guess the new joeblow isn’t a sock after all.

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Jul '1413

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