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1:05 PM
@Lawrence "I gotta change my pants"
eww.
@Randal'Thor not an octothorp
 
@Mitch No, no. The deformed nougat was fully contained in the wrapper. Still edible, even. :)
 
@JasperLoy exactly my impression.
so slow
but it was interesting seeing all these famous names appearing at Cambridge at the same time
@Lawrence Oh. Still.
 
@Mitch You can ignore the deflated nougat. It just seemed to surprisingly extend the marshmallow comparison.
 
people tangential to the story like Russell (who had his own quasi-prodigy in Wittgenstein). Also, I don't know how accurate it is, but the troubles one has as a foreigner with different dietary restrictions is similar to now.
 
@Mitch The main point was to give you a less clinical idea of what nougat is.
 
1:11 PM
@Lawrence I know what nougat is. I just don't connect the word 'nougat' with anything.
 
So when google does lazy coding nougat inflates, right?
 
@Mitch Why does the name matter?
 
Whenever anyone says a 'candy bar with nougat inside', I know what they're referring to because what else is inside a candy bar that is not named anything else.
Like I'm blind to that particular word, but I can see the empty space where that word goes and understand what is intended.
@Lawrence If we didn't have names then talking would be hard. You can point at some things, but that doesn't work well in general.
@Helmar lazy coding nougat inflates quite often.
 
Already, hasn't it been released this week or so?
 
@JasperLoy isn't it time for 'half-moon' cakes now?
 
1:23 PM
@Mitch I was trying to understand why you wanted to connect the name to anything. I suppose it could be considered a brand name of sorts.
 
Finally, French rationlism wins over French intolerance: cnn.com/2016/08/26/europe/france-burkini-ban-court-ruling/…
 
@Mitch About time!
 
Next, maybe the US will follow. Please.
 
1:39 PM
@JasperLoy By that same logic, if one is unsure whether to leave a question open, one should not leave it open. There is no harm having less questions on the site. It is already very hard to come up with good questions, so why encourage people to come up with garbage questions instead?
@Cerberus I only believe inperts. Glad we agree.
 
@RegDwigнt Because if there are no questions at all, there'll be no site at all?
 
@Randal'Thor you are missing quite a few things there. Where do I even begin.
 
Also, hello :-) I don't think we've met before.
 
@Randal'Thor Only when you can snatch the grain of rice from my hand, Grasshopper, may you leave.
 
First off, we already have thousands of questions. And the site already is there. None of that is going away if you don't post "should I say I love or should I say I loves" twice a day.
And yes, helloes at you as well.
 
1:42 PM
He’s new.
And somewhat literalist.
 
Second off, you deliberately went to the extreme of saying "no questions at all". While we were specifically talking about "no rubbish questions". Not sure how you got from there to here.
 
@RegDwigнt I'm not defending crap questions, but if there are no new questions at all, the place is going to stagnate sooner or later and people will leave.
 
There are thousands upon thousands of interesting questions about English. That's why this world currently has thousands upon thousands of English linguists on payroll.
 
@Randal'Thor That is very much not a problem we're likely to be facing any time soon.
Veering slightly on topic here, am I alone in feeling that less questions, as opposed to fewer, is kinda weird?
 
@RegDwigнt There's no way to get there from here
 
1:45 PM
@RegDwigнt It's so hard to come up with questions that would be considered acceptable for this site that many people (including myself) don't even bother much of the time.
 
@RegDwigнt also lawyers
 
Nearly every time I post a question here, I end up regretting it.
 
@Randal'Thor sure thing they will. I am not denying that. Jasper, however, seems to be in denial of the opposite: that if you flood the site with garbage, the place is going to stagnate and people will leave.
 
Because ELU is so harsh on questions.
 
@terdon less, fewer, I'm fine with it.
 
1:46 PM
@Mitch Really? You'd say either? Huh.
 
@terdon Good point. I suppose it depends on whether you see "questions" as a set of individual particles or as a contiguous mass.
 
@Randal'Thor I guess the existence of ELL has to do with that, and that ELU is the english.se
 
I just had this discussion yesterday and I was (and still do) maintaining that less is for uncountable things.
 
@Randal'Thor yes, I know the feeling. I'm not posting many questions myself. I also find it very very hard to go to space, so I'm not going. So what. Hard is not bad. Hard is good.
 
Fewer questions is more correct, but "less questions" might fit better if you think of the set of questions as being so large that a single one is almost negligibly small.
 
1:47 PM
@Randal'Thor the main problem here is that the site was originally created with one scope in mind, and that's what most of the old regulars want, but the name of the site suggests a very different scope.
 
@Randal'Thor Regrets I've had a few, like OSV'ing to many to mention
 
@terdon Agreed. Less flour, fewer cars.
 
@Randal'Thor Rather, askers are so harsh on ELU.
 
@Mitch OSV?
 
@Randal'Thor Of course.
 
1:48 PM
@terdon yes. eether igh-ther, neether nigh-ther, let's have potatoes for lunch
 
@Randal'Thor Fewer questions is not "more correct".
Complete and utter nonsense.
We've been over this a hundred times, @terdon.
 
75
A: "Less" vs. "fewer"

nohatAh, less vs. fewer. Another arrow in the prescriptivist’s quiver of pointless pedantry. There's even a Wikipedia article about the dispute. There is also a Language Log entry about the matter too. According to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, a usage guide that looks carefully at ...

That's from a professional linguist.
Hope this helps.
Have a nice day.
 
It's not a rule of English, it's a recommendation by one guy, whose name we know, as well as the year in which he invented it, as well as the year in which he expressly said "this is my personal taste, and not a rule of English".
 
@RegDwigнt Yes we have, but I'm not sure if Rand is aware of the backstory.
 
@terdon That's the prescriptive anti-grovery-story-fast-lane-sign contingent
 
1:50 PM
Oh, right, you mean the less thing.
 
@RegDwigнt Just like the between nonsense. So much crap from the Victorians.
 
All I know is that it seems strange to me. I wasn't claiming there has to be a rule. I'll go read what nohat has to say now.
 
My personal recommendation for English is not to use any articles at all. Thousands of languages make do without, and so can English. Look at these sentences right here. No articles, ma.
 
user227867
@RegDwigнt I do not deal with logic in this chat.
 
@RegDwigнt Don't give up your dreams. Alan Shepard was 47 when he last went to space. Wait, the correct metric would be the first time an old person went to space. Sorry
 
1:51 PM
I would be delighted to see this personal recommendation of mine randomly become Rule in fifty years, for no reason at all other than because people are idiots.
 
@Randal'Thor Object Subject Verb. That's not a linguist etymologist enthusiast abbreviation?
 
Dear Sir, your determiners are difficult to distinguish from articles.
 
@Mitch Oh, of course. Context is magic.
 
@Mitch Feet unwet.
 
user227867
@Randal'Thor You are a mod on SFF?
 
1:53 PM
@tchrist Victorians had secrets. Which we can now buy in public. But still make us embarassed.
Yay!! First Jasperism of the day!!
 
@tchrist What is these there?
 
Lol like you can afford Victoria's secrets. Big stinkin liar @Mitch.
 
@RegDwigнt that's so anarthritic
 
@terdon Would you really like to know?
 
@JasperLoy Logic is overrated
 
user227867
1:54 PM
What is Victoria's secret? Her secret is that she loved me.
 
@tchrist If the answer can be limited to 4 lines, yes.
 
user227867
Recently, I managed to forget about a Maria I have been thinking about for 5 years.
 
Any answer can be limited to 4 lines. Just not by tchrist. But that's okay we've got a room of experts to help him.
 
@terdon It’s the plural proximate deictic demonstrative determiner.
 
@RegDwigнt I've only ever browsed.
 
1:56 PM
@RegDwigнt Heh, something like tchrist | head -4.
@tchrist A determiner then. OK, thanks.
 
Well sorta.
 
user227867
Interestingly, I still have not watched 'Jason Bourne', which I thought would be the best movie of all time.
 
Basically Tom writes 5000 lines, then we show them to Robusto and he sums them up in a perfect one-line quote that he just randomly knows.
 
user227867
Basically I write 1 line, and then I get downvoted by some folks and delete my correct answer.
 
Meanwhile, my contribution is focused on heavy drinking.
 
1:57 PM
@RegDwigнt Then Cerb comes in and corrects that to knöws.
 
user227867
@RegDwigнt I have been drinking water heavily.
 
As are articles also determiners, which is why banishing articles while tacitly sanctioning demonstrative determiners and quantifying ones is a facile silliness.
 
@JasperLoy Good, good. So in other words you've been drinking the vast majority of vodka.
 
user227867
@tchrist That sentence has transposition a.
 
@tchrist in most situations you do not need either.
 
1:59 PM
@JasperLoy Yep :-)
 
@RegDwigнt Need is such a strong word.
 
user227867
@Randal'Thor You know, I have never read any science fiction! What do you recommend me?
 
@tchrist wat
@JasperLoy Nah, it's crap.
 
Here's a very simple experiment: if you think English needs an indefinite article, ask yourself what its plural indefinite article is.
 
@JasperLoy Sorry, I'm more into the fantasy side. I haven't read much sci-fi either :-)
 
user227867
2:01 PM
@Randal'Thor I watched the first 4 movies though, and a few minutes of a pirated version of the fifth.
 
@RegDwigнt An article is as good as some articles.
 
To distinguish a thing from the thing, you really only need "the". You do not need "a". As demonstrated by none other than English itself as soon as it switches to plural.
It's the girls, or just girls. Likewise, all you need is the girl, or just girl.
 
user227867
The most useless articles are newspaper articles.
 
I'd like beer, please.
 
Exactly. What's not clear about that.
 
user227867
2:03 PM
I am making some tea.
 
Do you like that girl or do you like those girls or do you like a girl or do you like some girls or do you like any girls or do you like all girls?
 
I'd like beer.
 
@RegDwigнt There's a difference between asking for beer and asking for a beer. That's a fair point.
 
user227867
After water, tea is the best drink on earth.
 
@terdon no. No fair point at all. You're just used to it.
 
2:03 PM
@Cerberus 🍺
 
@JasperLoy SFF does have a big and busy chatroom (or should that be chat room?) where people will be happy to give you recommendations :-)
 
@RegDwigнt I think your wife would be less happy.
 
user227867
@Randal'Thor I only wanted to make small talk with you.
 
@JasperLoy better than drinking heavy water
 
@RegDwigнt There is an actual difference. You could argue that it is a pointless one, but it is there. Bring me a beer means bring me one unit of beer. Bring me beer doesn't specify quantity.
 
2:04 PM
> What did you drink last night, dear?
> Beer.
 
@Cerberus my wife is Russian. There is no difference between "beer" and "a beer" in Russian. Just like in most languages ever.
 
@JasperLoy Are you a Brit by any chance?
 
(He must be drunk.)
 
user227867
@Randal'Thor No, I am on the Asian continent.
 
@Cerberus Beer.
 
2:04 PM
> What did you drink last night, babushka?
> A beer.
 
@RegDwigнt I was about to ask if you had a Slavic connection.
 
(Oh, she only drank one beer.)
 
user227867
@RegDwigнt Do you have any kids now?
 
@Cerberus Yeah, that.
 
@Randal'Thor He doesn't have Slavic connection.
 
2:05 PM
@terdon not true. You are confusing cause and effect. You only have that distinction because you have that word "a" that would otherwise be utterly useless.
 
@JasperLoy I think if you go in not expecting it to make sense, it will be enjoyable. (the first 3 (or 4)) all tried to make sense. That is all.
 
Of course any feature of the language could have been rendered in a different way.
 
@RegDwigнt That's circular. The distinction exists, therefore there is a distinction. Whether the chicken or the egg came first is irrelevant.
 
There is absolutely no reason for you not to express that difference in meaning by other means, without having to have an article.
 
@RegDwigнt You just don't like it because you don't have it, Mr Fox Who Dislikes Unreachable Grapes.
 
user227867
2:06 PM
It appears that Taylor Lautner is not very successful after acting in the Twilight series.
 
We could abolish verbs and the language would still work, with some adjustments.
 
@terdon stuff and nonsense. The egg came before the chicken. That's not even a question unless you're trying to be facetious.
 
Cf. Chinese.
 
@RegDwigнt 'some'
 
blames vodka
@Mitch I said that, many many times.
 
2:06 PM
@tchrist whoa whoa I don't like it? Now you're just inventing stuff out of thin air.
 
Eggnought?
How do you spell that?
 
user227867
Today, I watched Jacob Sartorius's video on how he was adopted. He's a nice kid.
 
Eggnug?
Egg nog?
 
@RegDwigнt s/uff/rawmen/
 
@RegDwigнt Well. . . If anything, the chicken came first, but let's not debate ovolution.
 
2:07 PM
@terdon The egg came first, because reptiles were laying eggs before chickens evolved.
 
@Cerberus 'any'?
 
user227867
Maybe neither the chicken nor egg came first. Maybe there was a third state.
 
Like you can do it without words?
 
@Randal'Thor thank you.
 
@Randal'Thor Not chicken eggs they weren't.
 
2:08 PM
See, now he changes the subject.
 
@Randal'Thor Chickens did not evolve from reptiles you know.
 
Chickens evolved from God.
 
@terdon Wasn't it recently proven recently (as in the near past) that the chicken came first?
 
user227867
I have decided to ignore a user in chat. He is currently not in this chat.
 
That's mad ignoring skillz.
 
2:09 PM
@Mitch I missed the memo.
 
@Cerberus Um. Chinese has verbs.
 
user227867
@RegDwigнt Is your eagle still alive?
 
Bubo.
 
Bubo scandiacus.
 
2:09 PM
Please. Children.
 
@Cerberus Egg McNuggets
 
Déjà dit, bobo.
 
Moi, je veux faire dodo.
 
@terdon The children are watching.
A dear a female dear.
 
Se trata de otro tipo de huevos.
 
2:10 PM
of course, in Chinese many adjectives can also be verbs. But I don't think it's the case that anything which functions as an adjective can function as a verb.
 
user227867
I am going to have some mooncakes with tea now, bye children. Behave yourselves while I am gone.
 
@JasperLoy whew.
 
@JasperLoy Fat chance.
 
@terdon maybe it was the egg.
 
@JasperLoy If you want to read some SF, there's a Chinese novel called "The Three Body Problem" which is winning awards.
 
2:11 PM
@terdon so. Where's your indefinite article before "huevos", kind sir?
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How dare you!
 
@RegDwigнt de?
 
@Mitch I'm daring
 
Now I have NO idea if you're talking about specific eggs or unspecific ones. HALP.
 
uh oh
 
2:11 PM
@Mitch THEROMANSWROTEWITHOUTWORDSITWASSTILLINTELLIGIBLE
 
Unspecific in this case.
 
@terdon lol @tchrist will show you out.
 
Did I screw up? Is de another determiner of some sort?
Ah, yes, it is actually. I see.
D'oh!
 
@JasperLoy That's not going to happen. behaving that is.
 
Se trata de unos huevos suyos desde luego.
 
2:12 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 OK OK, but no verb endings, right?
 
@Cerberus Not synthetic.
 
Dear children, what an exciting programme this has been tonight, very insightful indeed. We've learned that "de" is an article, and that Chinese has no verbs. Tune in again tomorrow when we discuss Kim Kardashian.
 
@tchrist There you go.
De is an article in Dutch.
 
@Cerberus I read that as ILLEGIBLE
 
@Cerberus right, you "conjugate" by adding more words
 
2:13 PM
I think I've proven my point
 
I want de same ding he's havin.
 
@tchrist Yes they did. Birds evolved from reptiles.
 
@Mitch Then you misledged.
 
@Randal'Thor hahaha
 
@Randal'Thor Um. . .
 
2:14 PM
"Huevos" is Russian for "cock sucker" with one letter misspelled.
 
And in Chinese you can't even say "I want a beer", you have to ask for "a bottle of beer" or "a glass of beer" or "a unit of beer"
 
Birds and reptiles share a common ancestor != birds evolved from reptiles.
 
@Randal'Thor Insofar as birds evolved from fish, you are correct. Beyond that, no. terdon will see you out now.
jinx
 
@RegDwigнt Interesting. It's also Spanish for balls.
 
@terdon they didn't? They evolved from dinosaurs, right?
 
2:14 PM
No me digas, huevón.
 
@Mitch Dinosaurs were reptiles.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ah, I remember that.
 
@Randal'Thor Utter nonsense.
 
@RegDwigнt Huevos is Spanish for Eggs with no letters misspelled. Take that, Russian!
 
@Cerberus Impossible
 
2:15 PM
@tchrist You people are so superior sometimes.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is still informal in English, though.
 
Your memory isn't that good
 
@terdon eggs means balls in every sane language, except in English. More proof that English is insane.
 
@Randal'Thor Merely correct.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's just weird.
 
2:15 PM
@tchrist And arrogant.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 but either way you get a beer. so I think everyone is happy.
 
@Cerberus yeah it's annoying for pineapples too, because you need to learn all the measure words for all the nouns before you can count them
 
@Randal'Thor except beer. Beer is the worst.
 
@terdon It's a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, evolve-wevolvey stuff?
 
2:16 PM
@RegDwigнt Well, nobody ever claimed English was anything else. Well, except Nigel Farage but he'd have to.
 
one bottle of beer. one animal of dog. one person-counter-word of person. one stick-unit of chopsticks.
 
@Randal'Thor That's the technical term, yes.
 
@Randal'Thor Arrogate unto Caesar that which is Caesaris.
 
@Mitch See, now that would have been a far graver problem. If you ordered beer but got bacardi. But as long as you order beer and actually get beer, who the fuck cares about unit.
 
@tchrist Dinosaurs - Class Reptilia.
 
2:17 PM
@Randal'Thor The best at being humble too
 
You poor misguided soul. Terdon, is it worth disabusing him of his self-deception?
 
Dinosaurs — Class Repwhores.
 
OK, I've had enough of being patronised.
 
Hasta.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Which you also need in formal English!
I have received an information.
There are two informations I wish to pass on.
 
2:18 PM
A feathered dinosaur is any species of dinosaur possessing feathers. For over 150 years, since scientific research began on dinosaurs in the early 1800s, dinosaurs were generally believed to be related to the reptile family; the word "dinosaur", coined in 1842 by paleontologist Richard Owen, comes from the Greek for "terrible lizard". This view began to shift during the so-called dinosaur renaissance in scientific research in the late 1960s, and by the mid-1990s significant evidence had emerged that dinosaurs are much more closely related to birds. In fact, birds are now believed to have descended...
 
Containing what juicy bits, pray tell!
 
I have received seven and a half informations. And even there you need a fucken a before half.
How the hell is half an a? It is by definition not an a. It is by definition only half of that.
 
@terdon Yup, two-hundred-year–stale info. Thanks.
 
One half, two halves.
 
:)
 
2:19 PM
It's countable.
 
You're countable.
 
Thrice.
 
makes Cerberus a count and an earl and a Grafen
Thus proving treble countability.
 
@Cerberus ew! no, it's not countable to me.
 
2:22 PM
Traitor. I will tell Her Majesty.
Sorry, I mean a traitor. I will tell her a majesty.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Exactly.
 
Her is a determiner. You can but one slotted determiner have.
 
And formally it is could I have a glass of beer, please.
A beer is less formal.
 
@tchrist random rule is random. It only exists because we haven't come up with a random rule saying the exact opposite thing.
 
@RegDwigнt O meu amigo.
 
2:24 PM
It's not a rule, even. It's just a description of what we have so far.
 
Also in Italian do they use what appear to be definite articles and personal adjectives (but pronouns, arguably) together.
So yes, I know.
That doesn't make it not worth a shot.
 
Also in Bulgarian they slap a t at the end of a word and call that a definite article. No indefinite articles, though. English, take notice.
 
English will take notice of Bulgarian when Igbo takes notices of Tamil.
 
Martinek egunkariak erosten dizkit.
 
There is not a single article in Lord's Prayer. Nuff said.
 
2:28 PM
Paternoster
 
...in anticipation of this argument.
 
> Gure Aita, zeruetan zarena,
santu izan bedi zure izena,
etor bedi zure erreinua,
egin bedi zure nahia,
zeruan bezala lurrean ere.
Emaiguzu gaur egun honetako ogia,
barkatu gure zorrak,
guk ere gure zordunei barkatzen diegunez gero;
eta ez gu tentaldira eraman,
baina atera gaitzazu gaitzetik.
 
If you can make do without articles when talking to the fucken God our Lord, then surely you can stop pretending you need them when talkin to some stinkin idiot at Walmart.
 
@tchrist Euskera?
 
Ok, find the articles.
@terdon bai
 
2:30 PM
Whoops.
 
The zees give it away. Also kays.
 
This feels like reading Sherlock Holmes as a kid, trying to figure out what the matchstick man with two flags meant.
 
@RegDwigнt Futhorc!
 
@Mitch Tamil or not Tamil, that's the question.
 
user227867
2:46 PM
I hate mooncakes, but I always get free ones so I eat them.
 
user227867
I think that if I were a girl and slimmer, I would look like Milla Jovovich.
 
user227867
@RegDwigнt I know some Tamil curse words.
 
user227867
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I wonder if it is possible to convert Chinese to han yu pin yin only and still remain a language...
 
@JasperLoy yes.
there are entire works written in pinyin only
and all spoken language is just pronounced pinyin
 
user227867
The last time I needed to write a Chinese character was two decades ago.
 
2:53 PM
You should know this. the writing system is not the language.
Just like the notation is not the calculus.
 
user227867
Deep, as usual.
 
Anyway, The Three Body Problem won some awards recently for its English translation. So you could try reading that.... I haven't read it yet so I can't say if it's good.
 
user227867
Aha. Must be the Sun, the Moon, and the Earth, LOL.
 
actually no, it's three stars and a planet, meaning that it's really a four-body problem.
 
user227867
Oh, my guess was quite close, LOL.
 
2:56 PM
@JasperLoy I didn't want to say, but I can't stand the either. You're expecting cake and you get... blexh.
Like fruitcake. Yechh
 
@JasperLoy If you are serious about wanting to read sci-fi.... I could recommend some books
 
At least with sand cookies, it's truth in advertising. They taste like sand.
 
user227867
@Mitch Fruitcake is usually too sweet.
 
user227867
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Nope, it's OK, thanks.
 
@JasperLoy Which are?
 
user227867
2:58 PM
@Mitch I think it is 'para punde' which means 'smelly vagina'.
 
user227867
I am going to bed, bye.
 
@JasperLoy pin yin is actually better because you get meaning (yes lots of ambiguity still and slightly different ambiguity that you have in characters), and you also get pronunciation, which is at best educated guessing with characters.
 
@NVZ Certainly. They are a work in progress. I've seen them borrowed before and two people have now expressed interest in them directly to me. Maybe it's time to move them to a meta question.
 
Also, pinyin is the 'out' if you can't remember the complicated character for a word.
 

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