English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

3:00 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 im saying i doubt the international community would give a damn about whether Cameron offered them a referendum.

Cerberus

@Jez Really? Well, just ignore that. Or use the older truly English flag! What was it again, white background, red cross?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs well, the confederate flag.... for obvious reasons

Jez

@Cerberus that's also associated with racism, xenophobia, and bigotry.

Cerberus

@Jez Well, who cares?

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 yes, but lots of people like the confederate flag for reasons that are entirely sentimental and nationalistic ("regionalistic"), and have little to do with slavery

Jez

3:01 PM

@Cerberus people who are sick of trying to ignore their nationality.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez I think the international community would probably pressure the UK to abide by the laws.

Jez

nah. anyway, what law?

the Scotland Has To Have Independence law?

Cerberus

I suppose too much flagging is considered xenophobic here as well. It always strikes me how Americans seem to have flags and ribbons hanging everywhere.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs Sure, and to that guy, I say, "sorry. Your regional symbol is defiled. Put it in the same box the Buddhists keep their swastikas in".

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 (i think you mean hindus)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:02 PM

@JSBᾶngs (whatever)

Cerberus

@Jez Perhaps you should stop watching television. That way the fools who offend you will just vanish into nothingness. I get frustrated all the watching television (if only by their use of language), so I don't.

Jez

@MrShinyandNew安宇 hah, who are you to say they should do that? you've just been lecturing on how you should let people of a region do whatever they want no matter how misguided

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Swastika

The swastika () is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, in either right-facing (卐) form in counterclockwise motion or its mirrored left-facing (卍) form in clockwise motion. Earliest archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates back to the Indus Valley Civilization of Ancient India as well as Classical Antiquity. Swastikas have also been used in other various ancient civilizations around the world. It remains widely used in Indian religions, specifically in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism, primarily as a tantric symbol to evoke 'shakti' or the sacred sym...

Jez

@Cerberus oh, i dont usually either. i try and avoid the BBC altogether, but it's pretty pervasive here.

but the irony is, when most British see a British flag, they think: BNP, evil. when most americans see a US flag, they think: US, noble.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Look, certain things, like swastikas and the Confederate flag are automatic offense triggers for historical reasons. If someone wants to offend people, that's their right. But if they get offended because other people get offended, or if they don't want to offend people, they need to understand that history sometimes ruins it for everyone. And this entire thing is beside the point.

JSBᾶngs

3:05 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 i actually agree with you for the most part. i also agree with @Jez that it's stupid and aggravating that the English people don't get to enjoy their national pride.

Jez

well i agree it's beside the point (unless your actual national flag is defiled)

JSBᾶngs

but i support the right of the English and Scots alike to have their national pride, neither one at the expense of the other

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez As for "which law", start reading here

Jez

my brain is logical. i hate the abritrary nature of countries. i hate the fact that if we'd had a slightly different history, we'd have britain, and no arbitrary lines on the map, and no 'Scottish pride' because Scotland wouldn't be a frigging 'country'.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Well, I dont' think the american flag or the british flag have been defiled like the confederate flag was.

Cerberus

3:06 PM

youtube.com/…

JSBᾶngs

also @MrShinyandNew, use of the swastika depends a lot on context. showing it in america or europe means "nazi". showing it in SE asia does not mean that.

Jez

my brain sees britain as an island that is ideal for being one country.

JSBᾶngs

apropos @Jez, is there any significant movement for welsh independence?

Cerberus

This is a very prominent square in the Hague. Imagine what it must have been like for WWII survivors to walk by unknowingly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs True. But even the SE Asians are starting to temper their use of it because it was so thoroughly defiled.

Cerberus

3:07 PM

The swastika flags especially. ^

Jez

@JSBᾶngs I dunno, I think the Liberal Democrats are fond of the idea.

@JSBᾶngs and obviously Plaid Cymru, who must be seriously bemused at how the SNP have support for scottish independence and they dont with Welsh independence even with their own language!

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 if i were buddhist or hindu, i would be very upset by this. look, a bunch of nutty germans do not get to mess with my ancient religious symbol

Jez

@JSBᾶngs religion is dumb :-)

2

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs Well, they are upset, and understandably. But they also want to be polite, and they don't want ignorant (uneducated, not stupid) foreigners to be offended or get the wrong idea. So it's far easier for them to stop using it.

@Jez don't get side-tracked here

user19161

@JSBᾶngs Well if you were Buddhist you would practise non-attachment to the symbol!

JSBᾶngs

3:11 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 i wouldn't care. again, a bunch of foreigners getting pissy because another group of foreigners once misused a beloved, ancient symbol is just not something that i'm going to care about.

kiamlaluno

@JSBᾶngs If they were lawyers, they would suit the Germans. :-)

user19161

@Jez Depends on the definitions of religion and dumb.

JSBᾶngs

@kiamlaluno sue the germans :)

Jez

@WillHunting i dont think so.

all religion is always foolish.

(given modern science and logic)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs Well, you don't have to care, but some of the buddhists (or hindus or whatever) actually have to deal with international commentary, tourists, etc, and thus they do care.

kiamlaluno

3:13 PM

@JSBᾶngs Oh, like Peggy Sue?

user19161

@Jez Science does not explain everything and is flawed just like religion. Logic is but a creation of the human mind.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 fair enough. but if anybody gives them trouble, i've got their back

Jez

@WillHunting no it is not flawed 'just like religion'. Religion is massively flawed in obvious ways where science isn't.

kiamlaluno

I came here to spy how the feeds were set for this chat room. I wanted to set the same for another chat room. :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting Science's flaws are completely unlike religion's flaws. And logic is not a creation, it is an emergent property of the universe. And I'm not getting any further into this discussion.

@kiamlaluno @Reg set them up

kiamlaluno

3:15 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That is why I watched the settings for this room. :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs Well, I agree with you, but I also sympathize with the people for whom the swastika is the ultimate symbol of evil, and I can see how they might be upset about the (older, completely legitimate) use of the other swastikas

user19161

@kiamlaluno Disclosing that you are spying is no longer spying.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting citation needed

Jez

the demonization of the Swastika is an interesting study. few symbols have ever taken on such a negative connotation.

even the commie hammer and sickle isn't really that offensive, outside of Glenn Beck's mind.

the only reason i might have liked the idea of Scottish independence is if the SNP were actually talking about some decent policies. then they could get implemented somewhere in the UK, at least.

but they are against nuclear power (facepalm) and have no problem with the war on drugs. basically nothing particularly good to add to public policy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But what if the Scottish people just don't want voters in England deciding things for them?

I mean, why not just have England hand the reins over to Ireland, or France, so that you could have a bigger national unit

Jez

3:26 PM

i object to the distinction between scotland and england, so i consider the question invalid

replace 'Scotland' and 'England' with 'Britain' and 'Britain'

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez And maybe that's why they object to your objetion

Jez

there is no 'why' that you have supplied. it's just irrational.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez north britain and south britain, if you insist on willfully ignoring the history of the colonization of the island

Jez

well, east britain may disagree with southeast britain but they dont try to secede.

they see it as petty infighting which is a waste of time and resources

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez but they could, why not.

Jez

3:27 PM

see above.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Sure, it might be petty infighting. But why hasn't England joined the EU? Why don't they merge with some of the other countries?

Jez

ask the SNP why they WANT to join the EU (as an independent Scotland)

and btw, Britain has joined the EU.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Just think, if all of Europe was one nation, there'd be no more problems! Everyone could order products from any city and they'd be delivered in a convenient fashion

Cerberus

@Jez Do they?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I think one aspect of a less unified Europe is that it cannot as easily be corrupted from the top.

Now healthy consensus is always needed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I mean, borders are arbitrary, right? So why not just abolish them altogether. Let's just all hand over control to Obama.

Jez

3:29 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Many people in the EU think precisely that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez I'm betting you're not one of them

Jez

in fact i kind of like the idea of a USE, with one problem - language barriers make it utterly unworkable.

Britain has no language barrier, so a united Britain is very workable.

Cerberus

@Jez Most educated people speak English already.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Actually, the non-unification of Europe is probably the reason why European nations rose to global supremacy in recent centuries.

Jez

in the EU? not really

and anyway what about the 'uneducated' people

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:31 PM

@Jez They're too stupid for you to bother worrying about what they think.

Cerberus

It is easier for me to understand an educated Spaniard's English than a Dutchman from Limburg's Dutch.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus you just need to get out more.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 In away, yes. But that was long ago.

Jez

you sound like an exception (or an English-speaking immigrant)

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Not that far to the south! All those strange people!

@Jez Nope not at all.

The same applies to most Dutchmen from the province of Holland.

Jez

3:32 PM

go to France, and see how many people understand English well

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, it was long ago. But my point is that diversity of nations led to competition and experimentation and improvement. Compared to China, which had a huge head start, but blew it all when the emperor decided to close the borders for decades.

Jez

even educated ones

Cerberus

@Jez You know, things are changing fast. Last time I was in Paris, of course I started in French with everybody, but most replied in English!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Don't tell me your French is THAT BAD?!

Jez

@MrShinyandNew安宇 yes but there is surely a limit. you don't want a Balkanized world because you let every little municipality have independence on a whim

@Cerberus o_O

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:34 PM

@Jez Where is that limit? How do we know when we've crossed it?

Jez

@MrShinyandNew安宇 well, nations over time seem to get to about the size of france/spain/britain

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Why sometimes is Holland used to mean Netherlands?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, that's what I mean by corruption from the top taking over. But in the 14th and most of the 15th century, China's unity didn't inhibit its economic, scientific, or other growth at all. On the contrary. So perhaps competition is not really necessary.

Jez

of course more recent nations can be bigger, and russia and china are exceptions for reasons beyond my comprehension

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Perhaps it is...but they did understand me!

@kiamlaluno Because Holland is the largest, richest, most populous province, which used to dominate the Republic. A pars pro toto.

Now the former province of Holland is administratively split in two.

Jez

3:36 PM

mon français est un petit peu meilleure depuis que le site french.SEN a existé

Cerberus

@Jez Nah. Nations can and have developed in all kinds of sizes and thrived.

Jez

@Cerberus there are one or two exceptions but i dont really agree with that statement on the whole

Cerberus

@Jez *meilleur, and I think your tenses are wrong, though I don't know the right ones either.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Curiously, the translation of "Dutch" is olandese, in Italian.

Cerberus

@Jez There are a hundred exceptions.

Jez

3:38 PM

where a larger or smaller nation has developed, it's stayed as one nation because of one language

@Cerberus yep, it's far from perfect

Cerberus

@kiamlaluno Yeah, I know, and you call our country Olanda, right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Sure it did. China was so far ahead of all the other nations that it should have conquered the new world, instead of spain and england and france. Instead, it stagnated until europe arrived and pushed them around, making things worse

Jez

i doubt 'est' is the wrong tense

existait is probably better

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You're missing the point. China was able to get "ahead" (quoting you) despite its unity, that's what I was saying.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus We call it Paesi bassi too. I don't know if that is the translation of Netherlands, but it sounds like it is.

Jez

3:39 PM

@Cerberus get ahead 'despite' its unity?

Cerberus

@Jez Yeah I think existait, but I think you need a different tense for est too. Or possibly a different verb, like est devenu or something.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well... not exactly. When its unity maximized and became stable, it started to stagnate. Historically there has been internal struggle and competition. But once it got big enough, and centralized enough, one bad government at the top was enough to ruin it for everyone.

Jez

@Cerberus not really. in English you can use 'is' though it may be a bit lazy

kiamlaluno

@Jez That language could have been also forced. See Italy, for example.

Cerberus

@kiamlaluno Yes, it is. Nether = neder = low = basso.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:41 PM

@Jez yes, the thesis is that unity leads to stagnation.

Jez

@MrShinyandNew安宇 i forgot, do you support or oppose Quebec independence?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Oh, I see. So in Dutch you say Nederlands.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I would say "mon français est un petit peu meilleur depuis que le site french.SEN existe"

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It had been large and relatively unified for a millennium, I think. Sure, it had been split up in two for shorter periods in between, but each of those still dwarfed any EU country.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez I oppose it on the grounds of I like having it here and I think federalism benefits us both. But I support it on the grounds of if enough people want to go their own way then they have the right to do so. However, I would do my best to convince them to stay.

Cerberus

3:42 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm sounds better!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Not exactly. There has been lots of civil war and foreign takeovers.

Cerberus

@kiamlaluno Yes, Nederlands (n. the language, a. Dutch), and Nederland (n. the country).

We use Holland too, but mainly in conversations with foreigners, somehow.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, I am way overdue for lots of things. So, bbl.

Jez

aussi j'utilise google traduction beaucoup et j'aurais besoin de ça quand je parle

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Still there was always administrative unity in a very large area that dwarfed France.

Consider the southern Song. If I am not mistaken, I think that was more populous than the entire Mediterranean.

kiamlaluno

3:45 PM

@Cerberus Out of curiosity, how is the plural of the word done, in Dutch?

Jez

the biggest ever natural disaster in terms of numbers was when an earthquake killed like a million people in Chinese caves

Cerberus

@kiamlaluno Of which word?

Neither noun has a plural.

Jez

but it was still a small percentage of the Chinese population

Cerberus

We use Nederlanden to signify the historical provinces, what used to be the Low Countries.

That's why the country is officially the Koninkrijk der Nederlanden.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus For example, how do you say house and houses?

Cerberus

3:47 PM

@kiamlaluno Oh, in general! We have -s and -en, depending on the word.

Jez

oxen

Cerberus

So huis, huizen, but minister, ministers.

I think -en is more common with Germanic words, -s with other words.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Yes, in general. I was wondering if Nederlands is the plural of Nederland.

Cerberus

@kiamlaluno Nope, impossible.

Jez

curious how English is called Germanic. i think it's because the most common 100 words in English are germanic, but look at the average sentence and it's much more latin/french/greek

kiamlaluno

3:49 PM

@Jez It's a Germanic language.

Cerberus

The suffix -s there indicates ehm an neuter noun that is a a substantivized adjective.

Jez

you're much more likely to find a drop-in French replacement than one from German, Dutch, etc.

Cerberus

But your grammar is more Germanic.

And Greek words are not that common.

Jez

maybe, but most of our grammar is kind of unique

does German have 's to indicate possession?

Cerberus

Yes.

Dutch too.

Jez

3:50 PM

ah, didnt know that

Cerberus

-s or -es.

Jez

does it have s' to indicate plural possession? :-)

Cerberus

Hollands Glorie = Holland's Glory.

Jez

ah but you don't use the apostrophe

The apostrophe is powerful. I want to smack people who want to get rid of it in the head with one.

Cerberus

@Jez We sometimes do: Marthe's auto = Martha's car.

Jez

3:52 PM

Just because they are too stupid to figure out where to put it in Mother's' day.

kiamlaluno

4:03 PM

@Jez It's simple: M'other's' Day.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Wouldn't it depend on how many mothers are involved, and whether they own the day or not?

Jez

that was the joke

generally, leaving the apostrophe out of that one is advisable

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 In any case, I have heard this theory about the competition between European nations before, but it is just one of the factors in play at best, since it really cannot explain the various successful larger states that have existed.

As an historian I must object to grand, simple theories in general.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:20 PM

@Cerberus Have you read "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond?

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 that's a great book

but i wouldn't call that a grand, simple theory

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez For the US holiday, anyway, the person who invented it specifically chose "Mother's Day" because it's a day for your one mother

@JSBᾶngs Well, it provides a fairly detailed argument in favour of a couple simple theories. And then it hand-waves China by saying "I dunno. probably intra-European competition tipped the balance."

Jez

@MrShinyandNew安宇 but it's not. it's a day for all mothers.

I might say "it's mother's day" if i want it to be a special day for MY mum

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez You can take it up with her.

@Jez That's what she wanted people to do.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Heard of it.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Grand theories can be helpful when you don't understand the finer details of certain phenomena.

But you should always keep in mind that they are very broad approximations.

They shouldn't be used to explain details: they should rather be considered a force that exerts pressure on people in a certain direction, while there are many other forces too, and many particular details of individual situations.

Something like that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:34 PM

@Cerberus Well, I'm not saying that grand theories explaining human history explain it all. It's a complex system. But competition is known to foster innovation and improvement.

Cerberus

Yes.

But not always.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So I think it's fairly uncontroversial to say that one factor in Europe's success is the fact that it was not unified, and was competing against itself

Jez

Newt says he wants the US to go ... to the Moon!

an amazing new frontier in space exploration

Cerberus

It could be a factor. But it may be only a minor factor. And it does not reliably predict much.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Well, nobody knows how to get there. The US used to know.

Jez

4:36 PM

it's been amusing to watch the vicious bastards in the Repub party jostle and scrap for the nomination in the almost certain knowledge that they'll get crushed by sane voters who don't cheer the death penalty or boo gay soldiers

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Are those sane voters a majority, or a minority, in your opinion?

Jez

even in the US, they're a majority

though the electoral college gives Cletusville an unfair advantage

Cerberus

Hmm gay soldiers...

Jez

►

pushing for a million dislikes :-D

probably the youtube record

Cerberus

@Jez Haha, brilliant.

But don't underestimate Europe's backwardness.

Jez

4:42 PM

I wasnt talking about Europe

Cerberus

I know.

If a man like Wilders can get 18 % of the votes here...

Or sheep, rather.

MetaEd

Goats should get to vote. They have minds of their own.

Jez

in an atmosphere where Muslims are literally killing people who create art, i don't blame them

it's time our governments stopped putting up with crap in the name of diversity

Cerberus

@Jez That was just one person. He should rather be focusing on smoking or driving if preventing deaths is his biggest issue.

Jez

no it wasnt

they've killed lots of people

Cerberus

4:51 PM

Not here.

Jez

worse, they've given Europe a chilling effect whereby it's difficult to publish stuff if it might offend Muslims

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Still, a lot fewer people die of terrorism than of, say, cancer.

Jez

@MrShinyandNew安宇 true, but i feel the way of life in Europe is changing and becoming less free. some of it is to do with conservative Islam

Cerberus

@Jez In any case, the issue is not "what is the problem?", but "what can we do to solve it?". Wilders is doing absolutely nothing and nada to solve things.

Jez

freedom of speech is all but dead. you can't burn a Quran

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:52 PM

@Jez Most of it is the democratic governments using that as an excuse to increase control over their own populations

Jez

Wilders wants to stand up to Muslim fundamentalists

Cerberus

@Jez No, he doesn't want anything specific. That's his problem: he doesn't make policy, he just complains.

Jez

he doesnt make policy because he's not in power

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Agreed.

Jez

it's a bit unfair to level that at him

Cerberus

4:54 PM

@Jez No: read his party programme. There's nothing in it that is practical and that would help solve the problems we have.

Jez

@Cerberus anyway, he's done a service to humanity by forcing the liberal deniers to actually recognize what the Quran says

they thought it was some hippy book about love and peace

some still try to pretend that.

Cerberus

Nobody with a sane mind ever thought that the bad parts of the Quran and the OT were nice.

Jez

I love this new term "Islamist", because it really underlines the fact that the real problem is when people take Islam too seriously

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Don't get me wrong. I don't like religious fundamentalists or violent fundamentalists and Islam seems to have more than its fair share of that. But I don't think it's constructive to frame the debate in terms of "Europe vs Islam"

Cerberus

That's not his term at all.

Jez

4:56 PM

saying "the bad parts of the Quran" is like saying "the smelly parts of a sewer"

Cerberus

@Jez The problem is that he does not make this distinction at all.

@Jez Not true. There are many parts about love and peace.

Just as in the Bible.

Jez

where?

no, even the Bible is somewhat better

Cerberus

Yes.

Jez

(the NT brings the mean average up a little)

Cerberus

But the Quran has good parts still.

Jez

4:57 PM

not really

if it does i havent seen them

MetaEd

Saying "Europe vs. Islam" is a lot like saying "Christianity vs. Islam" and in reality there is something to it.

Jez

im going home anyway. bye

MetaEd

Considering the history of wars of conquest going in both the easterly and westerly directions.

Cerberus

@MetaEd Not really, because most Wilders voters are irreligious.

MetaEd

Specifically religious conquest.

I'm making a general comment.

Cerberus

4:59 PM

Heh.

@Jez Google Quran love peace.

MetaEd

The point is that it's not simply an academic question. Real, bloody wars have been fought countless times as Europe tried to conquer the Middle East and vice versa.

Well, maybe you could count them. But who would want to.

user19161

0

Q: How to better express thanks to someone wishing you on Birthday?

I am so bored of saying everyone "Thank you so much", "Thanks", etc. What is a more gentler way of expressing thanks to: Your friends Your elders

user19161

Not constructive. His zero per cent accept rate upsets me too.

Cerberus

@MetaEd So what about it?

I have to go for now, later!

user19161

When the fighting in the mind ends, the fighting in the world will end too.

MetaEd

5:07 PM

@WillHunting So ... when monkeys fly out of my butt?

I despair for humanity.

HaL

@FumbleFingers: The fact that your comment has received many votes does not make it more right. In fact, it appears many others are just as deluded as yourself. I've noticed that, in the past six or seven months, your answers and comments have become needlessly aggressive, and often are completely off-base.

@FumbleFingers: Too quickly do the pitchforks come out on merit-based community-driven sites such as this, and users like yourself are much of the reason why I have become increasingly disappointed with StackExchange. I will continue to contribute quality answers to EL&U for the sake of new users, and particularly those who are non-native English speakers, and will do my best to ignore users like you now and in the future.

user19161

@HaL Relax! Have a Kit Kat!

MetaEd

I do not find any aggression or hostility in FF's comment, and it seems apropos.

JSBᾶngs

@MetaEd "countless times" is a vast exaggeration here. depends on what you mean by "attempted to conquer"

MetaEd

@JSBᾶngs Totally agree, needless hyperbole on my part, which is why I backpedalled.

JSBᾶngs

5:22 PM

there are arguably two times when the ME tried to conquer europe: the invasion of Spain by the Moors, and the invasion of the Balkans by the Ottomans.

and once when the reverse happened: the Crusades

@MetaEd sure :)

MetaEd

You can also identify definite eras in the past during which various wars occurred, yes. But I was thinking more along the lines of individual campaigns.

JSBᾶngs

every long conflict involves lots of individual waves, so i'll grant you that

the reconquista of spain takes what, a century? the crusades sort of dribble on for about 200 years. the ottoman advance and retreat each take over 100 years.

user19161

Oh dear, history is the most boring topic after politics.

JSBᾶngs

what?!

history is awesome. more interesting than politics.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting quiet, the grown-ups are talking

user19161

5:28 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Grownups=OLD. QED.

JSBᾶngs

unfortunately i have to go to a meeting now. i'll have to bore you all later.

user19161

Anyway Hal's words made me realize there seems to be a lot of unhappiness going on at SE.

user19161

Sometimes I overreact to comments too. We must all try to keep calm and not escalate matters.

MetaEd

25 mins ago, by MetaEd

I despair for humanity.

The trouble is that we are all primates.

The monkeys flying out of my butt is us.

3

FumbleFingers

@Hal: I'm sorry if my comment came across as "snarky" - I agree it was a bit self-indulgent of me to use the word "tosh", but I was just getting into the spirit of being exaggeratedly British at the time. And whilst I accept I've become a bit more stroppy of late, that certainly wouldn't be aimed at you. Like you, I'm also bothered by people who seem to just go looking for something they can pick holes in.

Cerberus

5:37 PM

@HaL Hi! Which question was this about in particular?

FumbleFingers

...anmyway, it's hardly "deluded" to point out that "aubergine" isn't exactly a high-falutin' posh word in the UK (except when used to describe the colour of your new bathroom suite, perhaps).

Cerberus

Hi Fumble.

FumbleFingers

yo, ma man!

Cerberus

*dog

user19161

@FumbleFingers I liked the reverse and rereverse yesterday!

MetaEd

5:39 PM

@FumbleFingers I love regionalisms. You know, in Texas the phrase is frequently pronounced bedroom SUIT.

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers I have a feeling that there was some question or comment we still had to discuss, but I can't remember at all what it was.

MetaEd

You were discussing memory loss.

FumbleFingers

@Cerb: you'll have to explain that "dog". I remember it from some violent movie where it mean "Eugh! that's a lot of blood and gore!"

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers Look at me.

At my picture.

Though I won't deny I'm very manly too.

FumbleFingers

oic not memory loss, just general slowness!

user19161

5:41 PM

@FumbleFingers Cerberus=dog. QED.

Cerberus

@WillHunting There was nothing to be demonstrated!

user19161

@Cerberus The equation was to be demonstrated. QED!

Cerberus

No it wasn't.

FumbleFingers

well u may not be doggy, cerb, but I'm defo a bad/slow typist

Cerberus

@WillHunting You need a position or hypothesis, extensive argumentation, and only then you may QED!

FumbleFingers

5:42 PM

@will: are you a closet genius?

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers Ah, I see!

Are you really a slow typist? How come? Your comments and answers seem to fly in by the dozens every day, hehe...

FumbleFingers

I really do only use two fingers

Cerberus

Tip: if you press the up key when your cursor is in an empty typing box here, you can edit your previous line.

@FumbleFingers I think I use only two too.

FumbleFingers

Ah! I could use that info!

It works!

Cerberus

And if you hover over someone else's line, you see a little grey arrow on the right. Press that to reply to someone's line.

user19161

5:45 PM

@FumbleFingers FumbleFingers=FF=FireFox!

FumbleFingers

like this, Will?

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers Hover over the grey arrow here on the left to see which line I am replying to.

That was your lesson for today.

FumbleFingers

oic - I went for the one to the left of that! there are two hover spots there

Cerberus

Yup.

Oh, and Orwell was a good, old prescriptivist. But I think we have already discussed that.

FumbleFingers

I have done this "instant response" stuff since I quit Compuserve "moderated chat" nearly a decade ago. It's certainly hard on the (two) fingers!

Cerberus

5:49 PM

@FumbleFingers Before this website, I hadn't been chatting for a long while too. The first MSN messenger, then I quit chatting around 2003, I think.

But actually I feel that I can type pretty fast with two fingers.

Maybe I'm cheating.

Actually I think I am. Sometimes other fingers get involved.

I press enter with my ring finger.

FumbleFingers

At 14, Orwell was my hero. Then at 15 I worshipped DH Lawrence. Things have moved on a bit since then though. These days it's Dawkins and David Deutsch.

Cerberus

Space with my thumb.

FumbleFingers

Not even the thumb for me. And I have to use the mouse with the same hand.

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers Hmm Dawkins is smart, but a bit rabid in his atheism.

Mahnax

@WillHunting I got 54/60, or 90%.

Cerberus

5:51 PM

@FumbleFingers Hmm. Perhaps chatting more will automatically improve your speed and skill.

FumbleFingers

I did most of my typing writing code. In carpentry it's "measure twice, cut once". In coding, it's "think ten times, code once".

Cerberus

Oh, I always just begin and experiment my tail off.

@Mahnax Good!

Mahnax

Mm, code. Hello @Fumble.

@Cerberus Not for me! That's my worst maths mark all year.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Oh aww. Any chance to will be allowed to retake it?

FumbleFingers

@Cerberus someone has to counterbalance the misguided/retrograde "Christians against Allah" thinking that's on the rise.

user19161

5:53 PM

@Mahnax Good good!

Mahnax

@Cerberus No. But it's not the end of the world, I suppose.

FumbleFingers

@Mahnax yo

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers Hmm I don't know. One shouldn't stoop to extremism to combat extremism.

FumbleFingers

@Cerberus I think all religion is "extremist", I'm afraid.

Mahnax

@FumbleFingers I think this is the first time I have seen you here. Welcome!

Cerberus

5:54 PM

@Mahnax You will live. Like that man that had 40 % of his brain shot to pulp in Iraq.

FumbleFingers

@Mahnax It is, and the speed of it makes me dizzy!

Mahnax

@Cerberus I know I'll live, but maybe sulk about it for a few days :D

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers Why? There are moderate believers who don't evangelize.

Mahnax

@FumbleFingers That's the fun of it!

Cerberus

@Mahnax Hmm too bad you're not an alcoholic, then.

MetaEd

5:55 PM

@FumbleFingers Welcome to the fray.

FumbleFingers

@Cerberus when I was a teenager I had an open mind, but I really don't any more

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers Well, define open. I'm not open to it; I just think it is only one of so many errors that people are committed to all the time. I may have other silly beliefs.

FumbleFingers

belay that - I still don't know exactly how reality functions, but I surely don't believe there's a supreme being with anything like what we understand as consciousness/individuality

Mahnax

@Cerberus Not being an alcoholic is a bad thing? Hmm, you learn something new every day!

user19161

@FumbleFingers I believe there are super-human beings though, but not an omnipotent creator.

FumbleFingers

5:58 PM

I wasn't exactly "alcoholic" in 2000 when I did cserve "chat", but I drank at least a half-bottle of JD every night I was online

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers Neither do I. But you may be misapplying Bayes theorem, for example. I'm not open to that, but I still don't think you are a total loss if you do.

@Mahnax Drink away one's misery?

FumbleFingers

@WillHunting superbeings that meaningfully interact with our existence?

Cerberus

3 hours ago, by Jez

@JSBᾶngs religion is dumb :-)

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