English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Tonepoet

4:00 PM

I think the key distinction is that I just wouldn't use three sibilants in a row but I would use two in a row.

Now that I think about it...

tchrist

@Tonepoet What's wrong with Dr Seuss’s books?

Or sis’s grades?

After all, they are not cis-grades.

MετάEd

There may be as many as twelve, so choose wisely: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibyl

Tonepoet

@tchrist Okay, I think you took the words "in-a-row" more literally than I meant tchrist. I'm more disappointed in myself about that because I prefer literal speech.

MετάEd

Prophetiae Sibyllarum

Prophetiae Sibyllarum ("Sibylline Prophecies" or "Sibylline Oracles") are a series of twelve motets by the Franco-Flemish composer Orlande de Lassus. The works are known for their extremely chromatic idiom. == History == This cycle of motets is said to have been given as a personal gift to Albrecht V. of Bavaria, Lassus' employer, after his arrival in Munich. By the time he had begun work in Germany, Lassus had already enjoyed great success in Italy as a composer for Costantino Castrioto, and was looking to make a new name for himself. The motets were first published in 1600, after Lassus' death...

ktm5124

Cool!

tchrist

4:07 PM

Once Circe’s sick sheep piss shallots in the deep, then may Odysseus go free.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That's an oddly specific thing to wait for

Tonepoet

I meant three consecutive sibilants.

tchrist

kisses Sisyphus’s sister

Tonepoet

They're interrupted by a space, which represents a break in speech, so they're not consecutive. =P

tchrist

No, a space does not represent a break in speech.

Tonepoet

4:14 PM

Do you pronounce all of your words in one continuous stream?

tchrist

Of course.

It's called connected speech.

MετάEd

@Tonepoet Yes I've tried it this morning and you can go back to review a question later that you've skipped.

tchrist

@MετάEd How did you get her password?

ktm5124

Hmm.... There's more of a pause between "The cat" then there is between the syllables in "Theocracy"

MετάEd

@tchrist Do what?

tchrist

4:18 PM

@ktm5124 That /k/ is both unvoiced and aspirated.

Compare the eel with the apple. The first has a glottal stop.

The second in connected, because it does not.

ktm5124

Is /k/ ever voiced?

That example is interesting. So the 'space' between words depends a lot on phonetics.

tchrist

Sometimes in scared, but nobody will notice if it is or is not because this is not a phonemic distinction in that position.

ktm5124

Do you think the phrase 'the apple' is as connected as the word 'theocracy'?

tchrist

Certainly. It has the same first vowel, too.

Which is why I chose it.

ktm5124

I see. Well, the first vowel IS slightly different.

tchrist

4:24 PM

How so?

It's /i/ in both cases.

Mitch

@Tonepoet I agree that it's kinda crazy to call them words. If they were to treat them like words, they'd have to treat them like neologisms, see if any body actually uses them, and uses them consistently. Also, they're not English (it's some other language like sign language).

ktm5124

@tchrist Ah, there are two pronunciations for "the".

Tonepoet

I don't have any problem with calling them English but I'd rather have them be categorized as punctuation marks or something else.

tchrist

@ktm5124 Three, actually.

ktm5124

@tchrist Furthermore, I think it might be voiced in "the apple" but not in "theocracy".

tchrist

4:26 PM

@ktm5124 I don't think of English as having unvoiced vowels.

Cerberus

> Wat zijn de maatschappelijke kosten van wiet? Dat is de hoofdvraag in deze aflevering van De Rekenkamer. In het 25 minuten gaat het programma op zoek naar een antwoord, onder anderen door een coffeeshop te bezoeken, met diverse experts te praten en door een kijkje te nemen in de keuken van Colorado.

ktm5124

Hm. I might be out of my league here.

tchrist

This fruit of gold I give to thee, apple of mine eye.
This fruit of gold I give to the apple of my nigh.

Those sound the same.

Cerberus

This television programme has made an estimate of the total cost of the Dutch war on cannabis.

They went to Colorado to see how it's done there.

Mitch

@tchrist not in my speech. no glottal stop at all

tchrist

4:28 PM

Nederland declared war on cannabis??

@Mitch So you said it like "deal with it"?

Mitch

@Tonepoet they're doing it for publicity. emojis will be forgotten like friendster and myspace.

ktm5124

@tchrist I did a google search, and I think you're right - all vowels are voiced.

Cerberus

@tchrist I'm echoing this abuse of the word by...someone else.

Tonepoet

@mitch Yeah I get that it's a marketing stunt enabled by their prestige. The problem is that it won't be forgotten or at least not by the O.E.D. It's their policy to never remove a "word".

Mitch

@tchrist 'the apple' might have a yod in there, but thee, apple has a glottal stop or at least a longer pause

@tchrist to much different there to compare well

@ktm5124 In English. Some languages have unvoiced vowels (rare though)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:32 PM

@tchrist I'd pause slightly because of the comma after thee, and also draw out the length of the vowel in the first one.

ktm5124

@tchrist Is the word 'the' in 'the apple' is voiced MORE than the syllable 'the' in 'theocracy'? That's my sense from saying them in my head.

There's more vibration when I say 'the apple' than 'theocracy'.

Mitch

the 'th's are pronounced differently, not the vowels

ktm5124

Right

The 'th' is voiced

whereas in 'theocracy' only the vowel is voiced

Mitch

the 'th' in 'the' is voiced, not in 'theocracy'

ktm5124

You hit the nail on the head

Mitch

4:33 PM

rem acu tetigisti

as it were

ktm5124

Haha, I like that phrase.

tchrist

@Mitch Yod excepted, for me the eel is /θiˈʔil/ but the apple is /θiˈæpəl/ while the cat is /θəiˈkæt/. I'm avoiding talking about things like [kʰ] and [iʲ].

@Mitch Summoning the dog?

ktm5124

I'm a little sad that my starred comments have faded into obscurity.

But wait, that's vanity.

tchrist

There’s probably some customary unstressed reduction in [θɨʲˈʔiɫ] too.

Mitch

@tchrist In articulate formal speech I might follow the general rule of 'ee' before a vowel and 'uh' before a consonant, but listening to myself, it's all "th'apple" and "th'cat"

tchrist

4:37 PM

@ktm5124 Solomon says.

Mitch

@ktm5124 isn't it all vanity?

tchrist

Déjà dit.

Mitch

@tchrist Take two giant steps forward

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist but why not /θə il/?

Mitch

@tchrist //coke

tchrist

4:39 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think I would too, at least in carefully elocuted formal speech.

ktm5124

@tchrist Vanity of vanities, all is vanity!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist Where else would one use thee ? ;p

ktm5124

@tchrist We shall return to dust.

Mitch

@ktm5124 You must have a very cluttered bathroom.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It doesn't sound right to me, is all I can say.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 In utterances like the only, there may be reduction from /i/ to [ɨ], which may perhaps be perceived as /ə/.

ktm5124

4:41 PM

@Mitch I have seven bathroom vanities, for each of my personas.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist hm

tchrist

@ktm5124 Had you two more, it would be amusing.

ktm5124

@tchrist What's the significance of nine?

tchrist

7 of 9 isn't very aMusing.

Muse

The Muses /ˈmjuːzᵻz/ (Ancient Greek: Μοῦσαι, Moũsai; perhaps from the o-grade of the Proto-Indo-European root *men- "think") in Greek mythology are the inspirational goddesses of literature, science, and the arts. They were considered the source of the knowledge embodied in the poetry, lyric songs, and myths that were related orally for centuries in these ancient cultures. They were later adopted by the Romans as a part of their pantheon. In current English usage, "muse" can refer in general to a person who inspires an artist, writer, or musician. == Number and names == The earliest known records...

ktm5124

Haha ;)

Went way over my head

MετάEd

4:44 PM

There's room in here for a joke about the vanities of the bonfire. Or maybe the bonities of the vampire.

Mitch

I'm still trying to come up with a word that has three fricatives in a row

MετάEd

There may be nine muses, but there are seven deadly sins, and at least one is a vanity.

Mitch

strengths comes close (if you count a nasal a s a fricative. which I don't)

MετάEd

@Mitch Not five of five?

tchrist

I once read a (fantasy/mythic) short story where one of the Muses was male. I wish I could recall it.

Mitch

4:46 PM

well if you have five then you three, but I thought I'd shoot lower

tchrist

@Mitch Define "in a row".

Mitch

no vowels in between

tchrist

And perhaps "fricative".

Mitch

like 'months' but a fricative instead of the 'n'

tchrist

Sixths and twelfths have fricatives intermixedly.

And are notoriously impossible for aliens to say.

Mitch

4:48 PM

twelfths, fifths, sixths, yes!

impossible for natives too

tchrist

Our shibboleths to banish the Martians withs.

Cerberus

Wow, you're still talking about fricatives!

Mitch

we've gone back and forth

tchrist

No, we had an amusing diversion but no one could identify the tale whose memory escapes me.

Mitch

but only now did we solve a major problem in english philology

tchrist

4:49 PM

Majoring in English philology is increasingly rare.

Mitch

@tchrist OK how about a non-number?

@tchrist or decreasingly common

@tchrist most universities have dropped their classics departments

(in the US)

ktm5124

That's really sad.

tchrist

@Mitch moth sphynx

clothes-thatch

wolf’s-thistle

Cerberus

Well, I applaud your discussion.

Mitch

what's needed is a regex search but you don't specify the letter but instead one of the features: [+fric]{3}

@ktm5124 too few students, too few grad students to fill seats left by retiring profs

tchrist

5:06 PM

@Mitch You can search for the IPA if you're careful enough.

Well, I can. I don't think anything public allows it.

Cerberus

Surely there are languages that allow for unicode?

Mitch

@tchrist anything public? what's that? You have some backdoor to IPA pronunciations at OED?

tchrist

@Mitch Yes.

user208178

I'm still learning the IPA symbols. I'm used to the old (?) version that Webster's dictionary uses.

tchrist

@Cerberus That isn't the issue. It's the public accesses don't allow full regex searches, for a variety of reasons, some good.

ktm5124

5:14 PM

@Arrowfar I'm still aspiring to learn the IPA symbols.

tchrist

I have my own OED dataset, so I can search it as I please.

Cerberus

Oh, you mean searching a specific corpus that isn't publicly available, OK.

I have the OED in a text file too.

Accessible through the Golden Dictionary.

I've also edited a siterip of Pokorny to be searchable by Golden Dictionary.

That involved a bit of unicode.

Because how do you search for ʰ?

Mitch

@Cerberus Nice. All the Pokémon searches you want!

Cerberus

Yes.

You can find them anywhere easily.

No more app.

Mitch

They caught them all?

I think they missed their market. They should have Pokédess

Tonepoet

5:30 PM

@Mitch I think you meant Pokédexes?

Cerberus

> May can still choose where to go: to Hell or to Canossa.

Tonepoet

I haven't been following much Pokémon news recently, so I genuinely don't know if they did add such a thing as a pokédess...

Mitch

@Tonepoet Nope

I mean Pocket Desserts

Cerberus

May can go to Hell, or she can go to Canossa.

Mitch

Who wants to put their hand in their pocket and pull out a monster. Big marketing mistake.

Cerberus

5:32 PM

I'm afraid I know nothing about Pokemon.

Mitch

People want desserts in their pockets. How convenient!

@Cerberus I'm afraid I know even the slightest bit about Pokémon

Tonepoet

Here's the next best thing Mitch.

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

user208178

I know nothing about Pokemon either. Internet is crazy.

user208178

fandom.

Tonepoet

5:35 PM

@mitch Somebody said they were barely alive in the 1990s. I'm presuming it was you? XD

Mitch

@Tonepoet I think I'm gonna Kirbarf

@Tonepoet when did they come out first? 2001?

user208178

heh, that would make Mitch a teenager.

Mitch

When they say 'millenial' they never say which one.

Tonepoet

@mitch It was in 1996 for Japan but if I recall correctly the U.S.A. lagged behind a year or two like they usually do, so probably '97 or '98 insofar as you're concerned.

Mitch

Pokémon are timeless. Pocket desserts you probably should eat pretty soon.

tchrist

5:41 PM

@Mitch I don't think that the last in a thousand eyes and one was meant to be the anal sphincter.

> The headmaster of my school once informed all parents that regrettably the school fees had to be increased by £500 per annum. His secretary unfortunately omitted one "n" in "annum". This resulted in one parent replying that he personally would prefer to go on paying "through the nose" as he had always done in the past.

Mitch

@tchrist Oh, British parents!

Tonepoet

Examples of timeless Pokemon

Mitch

Also, explains why when I hear the British say something polite, I feel like I'm being insulted.

Tonepoet

Wrong link, peh.

Mitch

Hunh? It said '4ever'

Tonepoet

5:49 PM

Yeah, it made sense at first but upon reconsideration, I wanted to highlight the both of the time related Pokemon and my cut didn't take.

tchrist

@Mitch Perhaps you're miscuing on their desultory politesse.

Mitch

@tchrist Or they are openly insulting me and I just can't understand their crazy accent!

tchrist

The Surgeon of Crowthorne

The Surgeon of Crowthorne: A Tale of Murder, Madness and the Love of Words is a book by Simon Winchester that was first published in England in 1998. It was retitled The Professor and the Madman: A Tale of Murder, Insanity, and the Making of the Oxford English Dictionary in the United States and Canada. It tells the story of the making of the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) and one of its most prolific early contributors, Dr. W. C. Minor, a retired United States Army surgeon. Minor was, at the time, imprisoned in the Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum, near the village of Crowthorne in Berkshire...

user208178

6:11 PM

so dell laptops have no mic jacks. they have a built in mic and it is kind of bad.

Mitch

@tchrist I read that. See, it's possible to have a productive life even when you're incapacitated by mental difficulties. If you or your family have lots of money.

2

Q: Meaning of "See that wet, see that dry!"

"You'd share and share alike with the rest, whether you'd been in that particular job or not. There's fifty members, and you'd get one-fiftieth, same as Number One and same as me." "Really? No kidding?" "See that wet, see that dry!" Jukes laughed. "Say, can you beat it? There's never been ...

Normally, that should close voted to hell because it sounds like writing evaluation. But it turns out to be a very interesting turn of phrase, almost like rhyming slang, where you just have to know the culture to know the meaning.

user208178

6:29 PM

interesting phrase. first time I heard.

user208178

upvotes

tchrist

@Arrowfar In the present, you need an auxiliary: This is the first time I have heard that, which of course be I’ve and normally is.

But in the past, it’s ok: That was the last time I ever heard that.

user208178

@tchrist ah I see, thanks.

tchrist

Even in languages that have an inflectional distinction between the present tense of a verb and its past tense, the way English assigns these often does not map one to one to how it is done in other languages, especially with regard to the perfect and progressive aspects (read: have done and is doing).

Dan Bron

My (French) sis-in-law tells me French has no progressive aspect. I asked her how they distinguish between "I am swimming" and "I swim". She says they don't. Which makes me wonder kind of wonderful linguistic tools English is missing out on.

tchrist

6:41 PM

@DanBron That's right. The habitual aspect can be signalled by other means like by adding a word like "daily" or "in the morning", or blocked with things like "right now".

Spanish and Portuguese and Italian all have progressives, but French does not.

> Qu’est-ce que tu fais maintenant?
What are you doing right now?

Qu’est-ce que tu fais demain?
What are you doing tomorrow?

Qu’est-ce que tu fais pour apprendre le français?
What do you do to learn to learn French?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DanBron You should look at Chinese.

Dan Bron

@tchrist What do the Romance languages have that I don't have in English, that I want?

tchrist

@DanBron What do you mean?

Dan Bron

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's a project well beyond my current time-budget.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DanBron The verbs don't inflect or anything to indicate any tenses.

Dan Bron

6:48 PM

@tchrist I mean what cool stuff do the Romance languages have that English doesn't have?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So like "I swim .. yesterday" and "I swim... tomorrow"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DanBron right

Dan Bron

That seems straightforward.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

it can be. But then it can get tricky to stack modifiers the right way when you're trying to say something complicated.

Dan Bron

@tchrist In the sense that English has this cool thing, "the progressive and habitual aspects", that French lacks, and a Frenchman would be justified in being jealous about.

tchrist

@DanBron Gendered pronouns and demonstratives for inanimate antecedents. A finer distinction between subjunctive and indicative. In all but French, implied subjects.

Dan Bron

6:50 PM

Can you give me an example of what a demonstrative for an inanimate antecedent would be?

tchrist

I was offered a job or a vacation, so of course I chose that.

Dan Bron

Weird!

tchrist

Where "that" has a gender that tells you which of job or vacation was intended.

Dan Bron

I want that.

I mean I want that.

tchrist

Their "it" is also gendered in the same way.

Usually.

Dan Bron

6:53 PM

So how do they make "Who's Pat" jokes about Cousin Itt?

Crippling flaw.

tchrist

Cousin Thing. Cousin Beast.

You cannot say "I'm ready" without revealing your own gender.

Dan Bron

I wonder how genderier languages like French et al are going to handle the changing social dynamics about gender

Kit Z. Fox

There's an article I read about that recently somewhere.

Dan Bron

English really only had to change a couple pronouns. We were 70% to genderless as it was.

tchrist

How's that?

You just change him to her or vice versa.

It's not like anything else changes.

Dan Bron

6:57 PM

In English, yeah.

No, if you want to be non-commital about someone's gender

tchrist

Well, what gender do you plan to change?

Dan Bron

all of them

universally

tchrist

Explain.

Dan Bron

but mostly it's about "Oh, you saw a new doctor yesterday? How was <he|she|they>?"

tchrist

@DanBron Then you switch to mentioning "a person", which is technically feminine, but this becomes awkward.

Dan Bron

6:58 PM

In English, to eschew gender commitment, we just default to "they"

tchrist

@DanBron Doctor is masculine.

So you have to say him. If you're wrong, someone will correct you.

Dan Bron

Yeah, the awkwardness is what I'm wondering about, given that gender is deeply imbued in so many non-English languages.

Nah, being "corrected" isn't enough.

tchrist

Just like spouse is feminine.

Dan Bron

Some time in the near future, if you assume someone's gender, even implicitly, you're not going to be corrected, you're going to be lambasted.

It's already happening. People on Twitter state, in their bios, their preferred pronouns. It's a whole thing. The idea of sex-gender is being eroded.

Interesting times.

tchrist

Romance doesn't have anything like a non-gendered "he" or "she" for definite people, and only a few Iberian languages have a non-gendered "it" for abstract things. Plus only one of them has neuter concord for those, and not many people speak it. Everybody else uses masculine concord when needed.

Carlos Gabriel Viera Zapata

1

> Aparentemente, este usuario prefiere no revelarlo todo.

> Apparently, this user prefers to keep an air of mystery about them.

There is no reason to state the user's gender in Spanish.

> Aparentemente, este usuário prefere manter um ar de mistério sobre si mesmo.

That one in Portuguese uses masculine for "oneself" (si mesmo) because "user" is formally masculine. It says nothing about the person.

If a person wants to do something for themself, then "themself" is feminine because person is formally feminine. It says nothing about the person's gonads. It's just a word, and that word is feminine even referring to male persons.

There will always be a noun antecedent, and it will have a gender. That's what you use.

Then again, you are saying something when you choose between amigo and amiga.

@KitZ.Fox It's an issue with professions.

You can't use the feminine of a profession any longer to mean the wife of that guy.

It also because problematic when the feminine means the group and the masculine the individual, but you have a lady whatever. This happens with guardia and with policía.

ktm5124

8:14 PM

@tchrist Invited you to a chat room to discuss spirituality

I thought it would be off-topic here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@ktm5124 Speaking of which, there is that other chat room for OT chat that I created per our conversation the other day

The Incomprehensible Room Redux

Controversial chat that isn't suitable for the main ELU room

ktm5124

Oh, I'll join.

Mitch

10:15 PM

@tchrist Wha?? It is? I've been using it wrong all this time?

or were talking Romance?

Dan Bron

How can you discuss your spouse without talking Romance?

tchrist

Latin had sponsus, a second declension masculine. In Spanish, the masculine esposo means husband, while the feminine esposa means wife. English got its version from the Norsemen invaders from France. Its relationship to sponsor I leave to you to uncover.

Dan Bron

Is there any etymology that doesn't lead back to people getting drunk for one reason or another?

tchrist

There's a symposium for that.

MετάEd

10:31 PM

tchrist

Without libation, no liberty.

2

Tonepoet

@DanBron You talk about amorousness instead I suppose. The way romance is used now seems to be a perversion of the word anyway. I have no idea how great stories came to refer to the concept amorousness.

Dan Bron

@Tonepoet Yeah, that was the joke. If you plug "Romance" into etymonline.com, you'll find where it picked up the extra sense. Bottom line: from a trend in art.

or, rather, "movement", to put it on its proper historical pedestal

Tonepoet

@DanBron Around the 19th century I suppose?

tchrist

It romance, the protagonists have abilities beyond those of mortal men, like Aragorn, Arthur, or Beowulf.

Dan Bron

10:37 PM

@tchrist That's the original medieval sense of romance. In the later Renaissance sense the connection was explicitly made to "love stories".

@Tonepoet Earlier. Like mid 17th century.

That RSS box is really annoying.

Shoo, feed!

tchrist

The tiny little thingy way up at the top left of my screen?

Tonepoet

@DanBron I'm surprised then because the only reason I know about this is because of my favorite dictionary. I'm gong to have to look into a P.D.F. copy of it to see if Webster included this sense of the word or not.

'cause I've been considering how to purge the alternative sense from my vocabulary for a while now, but perhaps it's unnecessary.

Dan Bron

@tchrist No, the giant one way up at the top right of my screen.

@tonepoet Wow, you punctuate PDF, too?

Why would you want to purge this meaning? It's the most commonly-used one, IME.

Tonepoet

I punctuate every set of initials, and I don't include prepositions or articles in the abbreviation. So whereas my fellow wesnoth players might abbreviate "Heir to the Throne" as "HttT", I would only use "H.T." It's something I'm quite stubborn about. If it starts to cause problems I try to stop abbreviating. However one time I was kicked from a chatroom for typing out Motion Pictures Expert Group Layer III and I never went back...

Dan Bron

Wow, you're hardcore.

MετάEd

10:48 PM

@tchrist I think you have a typo in that chart where it reads "Menandic". That's a misspelling for "Marceau".

Dan Bron

@MετάEd I find that comment mendacious and pedantic. In fact, I find it menandic.

MετάEd

@Tonepoet Well, sure. TANSTAAFL.

Dan Bron

No free lunch theorem

In mathematical folklore, the "no free lunch" theorem (sometimes pluralized) of David Wolpert and William Macready appears in the 1997 "No Free Lunch Theorems for Optimization". Wolpert had previously derived no free lunch theorems for machine learning (statistical inference). In 2005, Wolpert and Macready themselves indicated that the first theorem in their paper "state[s] that any two optimization algorithms are equivalent when their performance is averaged across all possible problems". The 1997 theorems of Wolpert and Macready are mathematically technical and some find them unintuitive. The...

tchrist

Tonepoet

It's bothersome to me, like typing out a contraction without the apostrophe I suppose.

tchrist

10:53 PM

I can't stand the broken kerning.

So I refuse to play that game.

Dan Bron

Jimmy broke kern and nobody care, jimmy broke kern and nobody caaaarrreeee...

tchrist

For I have tasted of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil keming, and now I cannot stop seeing evil everywhere. I shall not add more evil to the world.

Dan Bron

when you're eating a fruit, you're not supposed to swallow the kern.

tchrist

That's what she said.

11

A: Should there be a space between name initials?

You certainly do not want to use full spaces within strings of initials. Indeed, you quite possibly do not want to use any spaces at all. It depends whether we are talking about text generated under the tyranny of the typewriter or text that is to be professionally typeset. With a typewriter, ...

Dan Bron

I'm not sure the person eating a fruit and contemplating his kern is a "she".

Tonepoet

10:58 PM

A case could be made either way for that. We don't put spaces between other sorts of initials, despite the fact that they each represent an independent word. However it could also be argued that each initial in a name is from an entirely different set, hence why we might initialize some letters in a name, but not others.

I don't think J.C. Penny used to put spaces in their name initials though. I don't remember J.R.R. Tolkien doing it either.

tchrist

@Tonepoet Do you really you think you can tell how things are kerned or not at display sizes?

Tonepoet

I may be an uneducated recluse, but I haven't lived my entire life behind a computer displayer. =P

tchrist