English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

6:25 PM

@tchrist I'm watching another argentino film, and they're dropping their esses. E'ta, e'tuve, even stuff like "E' muy e'traño" and "E'to tene'" . . . Is this a class marker or is it pervasive in Argentina?

Cerberus

Funny.

I know Argentine Spanish was influenced by Italian.

But perhaps also by French?

Or it has its own dynamics...

tchrist

Er no.

Argentine Spanish is Andalusian.

The laminal rather than apical s may have provoked its aspiration.

It is more noticeable in the Caribbean but also seen in the Rioplantense dialects.

Cerberus

@tchrist But also Italian!

All of Latin America is Andalusian, isn't it?

tchrist

@Cerberus Essentially.

Cerberus

But Argentina in particular had many Italian immigrants during a certain influential phase of her development, I was told.

And the accent sounds a bit Italian, with lots of modulation.

tchrist

6:32 PM

Listen to Viggo Mortensen speaking Spanish off camera. He aspirates.

Matt E. Эллен

whereas Johnny Depp ispirates

tchrist

He's a rioplantense speaker.

When written phonemic /s/ converts to [h] in Andalusian speakers, the preceding vowel moves from close to open.

The compensation allows them to know that it happened.

By close to open, I mean (and it’s a gross simplification) you should think mate to met or coat to cot (RP).

Robusto

6:47 PM

So is it pervasive or part of a subculture?

Johan Larsson

6:59 PM

pervasive > $5, googling it

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Man, the recency illusion bugs me.

Johan Larsson

what is it?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Email in answer: Simple Past or Past Perfect by zolarin on english.stackexchange.com

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

". . . the belief or impression that a word or language usage is of recent origin when it is long-established."

Lately it feels like there is no other temporal term in wide use but "quick".

Everyone has forgotten about fast, &c.

And so what bugs me the most is that it's always quick, even when it should be quickly.

Johan Larsson

I think about speed when I read fast, time when I read quick.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:48 PM

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 I heard once that English allows adverb forms that don't end in -ly and that the rule prescribing against them is made up.

Tonepoet

Perhaps quickly isn't quick enough for hasty people combread ninja.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Email in answer: Simple past or present perfect when describing a series of recent actions by zolarin on english.stackexchange.com

Robusto

@tchrist Does that cover all of Argentina, or are certain classes more likely to use that?

tchrist

9:17 PM

@Robusto I'm not an expert on South American Spanish, but I think it is common there. I've heard other speakers doing it, but it may be class-linked.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

9:59 PM

@Rob I just dropped in to ask how you guys feel 'bout the results of the negotiations.

Robusto

10:35 PM

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I don't know the details, but I'm happy that there is an agreement.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Me too.

People have been going crazy about this. . .

Blocking (read: clogging) the streets, celebrations, fireworks. . .

tchrist

I never expected the Graeco-Persian merger to go through.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@tchrist That's why I'm not going crazy about it.

Damn 'em politicians, they will always have an excuse for an argument.

Robusto

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Yeah. Fox News has a full-court press going against the deal, but so far it looks like they won't have enough votes to override a presidential veto.

I would hope that Iran and the U.S. can eventually normalize relations, but that won't happen if Iran sponsors terrorism and insists that Israel must be destroyed.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Well the latter will remain, the former is too vague to be true or false.

Robusto

10:43 PM

And if the latter will remain, then there can ultimately be no agreement.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Indeed.

Robusto

Why does Iran believe that? What have the Jews ever done to them? Your beef with Israel isn't about Palestine—Sunni Muslims who hate Shia almost as much as they hate the Jews—but about some bullshit that happened a millennium ago.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

That's still another vague point about all of this.

Robusto

Perhaps you can give me a sharper one.

Cerberus

@tchrist Wha?

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I'm happy about it.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

10:48 PM

The situation now demands Iran's ultimate disagreement with the growth of the US control over middle east, if Iran aims to flourish as a great power.

@Cerberus Whee!

Robusto

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Is that what Iran aims?

Cerberus

@Robusto Sponsors terrorism? If so, it does so much less than Saudi Arabia.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Meanwhile, there are the jealous Arabs down there who just LOVE to worsen the situation.

@Cerberus Wholeheartedly agreed.

Robusto

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I thought you were going to sharpen the focus on this. You're speaking in generalities.

Cerberus

@Robusto I wouldn't say that: the conflict between Israel and neighbouring countries is a major factor.

Robusto

10:50 PM

@Cerberus I agree with that as well. Our love affair with Saudi Arabia is baffling. A cynic might say it's because of oil . . .

Cerberus

Hehe.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Robusto Generalities are all we can safely assume.

Cerberus

Yeah, oil, but also...to thwart Iran.

Robusto

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Then don't criticize me if I am sometimes vague about this.

So, really, what does Iran hope to gain? To become a great power which can then do battle with the West?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Robusto I won't. . .Did I? Apologies.

Robusto

10:52 PM

5 mins ago, by inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

That's still another vague point about all of this.

Cerberus

I dislike the régime in Tehran as much as that in Jerusalem, possibly even more so, but I think they are fairly rational people, the country is stable, and the population at large fairly liberal, at least compared to some other countries in the Near East.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Well, not a criticism in my eyes.

Cerberus

@Robusto Hope to gain by doing what?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Cerberus Yes, no one here does what they believe anymore.

Robusto

5 mins ago, by inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

The situation now demands Iran's ultimate disagreement with the growth of the US control over middle east, if Iran aims to flourish as a great power.

Cerberus

10:54 PM

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I read an article saying that only the rich in Iran are really happy about the agreement, because only they profit from lifted boycotts.

Robusto

This sounds like preparation for war against the West in general and the U.S. in particular.

Cerberus

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M How do you mean? Who are "they"?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Cerberus That's partially true too.

@Cerberus "HQ"s here.

Cerberus

@Robusto I'm not sure I even get that.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

The point is, @Rob, I don't wanna make assertions based on nothing, even if they're in an obsolete chatroom in the big world of the internet.

Robusto

10:55 PM

@Cerberus Then ask Prof. Backwards to explain it.

Cerberus

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Headquarters?

Robusto

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Who you calling obsolete?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Cerberus But no, everyone would benefit from the boycott liftings.

Cerberus

Probably...

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Robusto This chatroom. I mean it's not something critical.

Cerberus

10:57 PM

But most of the profits will go to the Revolutionary Guard and their gigantic corporations.

What percentage of the economy do they control nowadays?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Cerberus There will be abuse of the situation, like there always was.

@Cerberus How 'bout 1000%?

@Robusto AIWS, the US is a great power now. Do they use it to make war?

Becoming a power doesn't always necessitate wars.

Though in this case, it might.

Robusto

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Hell yes they do. And I would hope to avoid that sort of thing in the future.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Robusto IMO a big war is so unlikely.

Robusto

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Then I think you need to reevaluate the use of that term as a descriptor for things of which others are fond.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Robusto Yes, I figured I ill-used that word.

Sorry.

A big war, a big physical war is unlikely because it's the AIs turn now.

The wars are becoming more and more digitized.

Cerberus

11:03 PM

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Heh, right.

Robusto

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I'm not sure I see your point. How is digital killing better than another kind?

Cerberus

Digital killing? With your bare fingers?

A big war is extremely unlikely now.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

There's no need for killing anymore, when you can work on one's mind and change it so they'd do what you want.

Cerberus

The biggest things we have right now are invasions like those in Ukraine (now) and Vietnam/Iraq.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Cerberus Yes.

Robusto

11:04 PM

I think the short-term relief we feel from the use of drones is very short-sighted. What we are sowing with that is proliferation of that technology and unrestrained warfare by people in air-conditioned bunkers against, largely, people who can't reliably be identified as combatants.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Not drones.

Cerberus

Yeah, has any research been done into the long-term effectiveness of drone bombings?

Robusto

@Cerberus And I think it gets more likely with every passing minute. Doesn't the return to a Russian/American cold war raise the hackles on your neck even a little?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Cerberus That isn't biased? I guess not.

Cerberus

Maybe a tiny bit, but it is still extremely unlikely.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Or any research.

Robusto

11:06 PM

Well, I hope you aren't hearing it here first, but I think anything that makes war easier and more palatable is a bad thing.

Cerberus

Sure.

Robusto

Drones are the junk food of the military.

Their use as an instrument of policy hasn't been examined critically so far. I hope that changes.

Cerberus

Exactly.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I'm not saying war is unlikely.

@Robusto Ahan.

Cerberus

Because they're cheap.

Robusto

11:08 PM

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Ahan?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Robusto The same as nods.

In Persian.

Robusto

Over here we say uh-huh. Similar.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Or Uh-oh.

Robusto

No, that's something else.

Uh-oh means something is wrong. Uh-huh means agreement. (Or at least acknowledgment.)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Hmm. . .Yeah.

Cerberus

11:11 PM

And uh-uh (or something like that) indicates disagreement.

Robusto

Yes.

Uh-uh is the opposite of uh-huh.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Ahan.

Interesting how similar they are though.

Robusto

They don't really sound that similar.

Cerberus

The different is the h: uh-huh has an h-sound in the middle, where uh-uh has a glottal stop. Further, uh-uh has a different intonation, where the tone goes up, either at the beginning or in the middle, but it goes down at the end.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Their pronunciation is.

Robusto

11:13 PM

uh-uh vs. uh-huh. It's all where you put the accent.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

There's only the extra n.

Even the stressing is similar.

Cerberus

@Robusto Then there is the variant of uh-uh where the accent is on the second uh...

Robusto

@Cerberus Yeah, but that's a very stylized response. Usually the second syllable is drawn out at the same time: uh-uuuuuhhhhh, or with multiple initial unstressed syllables: uh-uh-uuuuuhhhhhhh.

Cerberus

Agreed.

Robusto

Often the final syllable will acquire a sing-song vocalization.

Cerberus

11:16 PM

And it has a slightly different meaning.

Yes.

@Robusto Where the tone goes up in the middle and down again at the end.

Robusto

I think the second syllable in that instance usually goes up at the beginning and slides down.

Cerberus

Unlike "standard" uh-uh, where it goes up at the beginning and down at the end.

Exactly.

I imagine an aunt using that one.

Robusto

It's playful.

Kids use it too.

Cerberus

Sure.

It is indeed playful.

Robusto

Adults will use it when they want to be funny.

Cerberus

11:19 PM

I am trying to think whether it is native in Dutch, or taken from English.

I think native.

Somehow I associate it with English more.

Robusto

I remember when I was in Germany getting caught up by some inflections that I took for playfulness but turned out to be something harsher. Can't remember the exact words now, though, for the life of me.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Robusto Always happens to me. . .

Robusto

> “Today a new page has turned,” Mr. Rouhani said in a speech aired on Iranian state TV. “Today is an end to the injustice and wrong, unfit accusations, and the beginning of a new development in cooperation with the world."

I hope he's right.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Bah. . .You should know better.

They're just. . .Speech.

Like the one a commander gives to his troops before he gets them killed in the battle.

Like I said, there will always be disagreement.

Robusto

Sounds like you should be on Fox News.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

11:23 PM

Thanks.

On a serious note, I see peace as the chemical equilibrium. It doesn't mean standing still, it means oscillating around the stable position. Disagreement isn't something bad, it's something that makes humans' lives more enjoyable, more colorful, more human. But that's just my viewpoint.

As long as disagreement doesn't take the system away from the stable state, it's fine.

Cerberus

Sounds good.

@Robusto When my aunt lived in Germany, she sometimes tended to say "jaaa, ja..." in conversation when someone else was saying something.

In Dutch, that can mean either "I see", or "I don't believe you", depending on intonation and context.

In German, however, it apparently always means "I don't believe you"...

> This rule also has an important corollary: Don't be afraid of text. Many games try to save space by replacing words with icons wherever possible, but this is a huge no-no in my book. A lot of the time these 'naked' icons appear inside tooltips, but unless the tooltips work like At the Gates's there's no way for you to actually figure out what it is. Once you have it memorized, sure, those extra few pixels are nice, but the price paid is completely disproportionate with the payoff.

But what if those few pixels here and there do add up into something veteran players legitimately care about…

— Jon Shafer

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

11:50 PM

K /me zzz. @Rob @Cer forget what I said, mostly. It was me getting delusional again about stuff because of a lack of sleep at 3 a.m., mostly. I only meant the least two messages seriously, mostly. Cya guys!

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…