English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

12:11 AM

@GeorgePompidou Haha!

I am everywhere!

I don't mind if you do your homework on me. Just...be gentle.

And welcome back!

ArtDesire

1:35 AM

@GeorgePompidou where in the world is this GREAT school which uses latest Ubuntu?

Robusto

@Cerberus You are not here.

Cerberus

1:55 AM

@Robusto But I am.

Otherwise, how could I be talking to you?

@ArtDesire We also have Ubuntu at my school!

But the kids aren't too happy with it, and neither am I, because I am used to Windows. I really like Ubuntu in theory, but in practice...

Aerovistae

3:43 AM

anyone here?

need help remembering a word

tchrist

4:38 AM

@Cerberus When you wanted to ask which of two things, to go along with either and neither, OE had a dual interrogative pronoun hwæþer (which today we would spell wheither), OHG had weder, and ON had hvaðarr. Did Dutch once have such a thing and later lost it like the rest of us?

> Wheither parent did you spend more time with growing up?

fornrit.net/Web-Lang/French/OE/htmls/OE%20Pronouns.htm

George Pompidou

7:15 AM

@ArtDesire in the worst place on earth

upstate NY

@ArtDesire also it's just the CS department. the art school uses os x and rest uses microsoft anal fireworks 7

it's such a poor time.

it even looks the part; like some kind of chubby girl wearing really really tight and revealing clothing on a daily basis and all around trying too hard

Andrew Leach

9:49 AM

@GeorgePompidou You're back! I've removed some messages. Please remember to keep your chat in good taste.

2

Ice Girl

@AndrewLeach Hi. can you help me? I have some questions about collocations

Andrew Leach

I can try.

Ice Girl

e.g. life and death. sooner or later. how about these words: law and......

......and butter

......the trouble

at home and ......

Andrew Leach

Law and order; bread and butter.

Ice Girl

open to the......

body and.....

Andrew Leach

9:56 AM

Take the trouble; home and dry (but not at home and dry).

Ice Girl

hue and ......

Andrew Leach

open to the possibility; body and soul.

hue and cry. (That one is around 500 years old)

Jasper Loy

@IceGirl Also, save the trouble.

Ice Girl

@AndrewLeach really thanks. can you give me some examples from yourself like those?

Jasper Loy

@IceGirl Also, open to the public.

@IceGirl Also, body and mind.

Ice Girl

9:58 AM

hard and......

Jasper Loy

@IceGirl Hard and fast.

@IceGirl If you are not sure what these mean, check the dictionary. Don't try to guess.

@IceGirl He is already giving you examples, lol.

Ice Girl

@AndrewLeach i need (at home) not home

@JasperLoy Thanks

@JasperLoy How about you can you give me some examples like those?

Jasper Loy

@IceGirl What do you mean by examples? I just did.

Andrew Leach

pros and cons

Ice Girl

no. I need some different examples except those. some different collocations.

Andrew Leach

10:02 AM

Church and State

Ice Girl

:)

Andrew Leach

bricks and mortar

knife and fork

Ice Girl

anything else?

Andrew Leach

"phrase and fable" might count, at least in circles who know about Brewer.

Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable

Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, sometimes referred to simply as Brewer's, is a reference work containing definitions and explanations of many famous phrases, allusions and figures, whether historical or mythical. The "Revised and Updated Edition" from the 1890s is now in the public domain, and web-based versions are available online. The most recent version is the 19th edition, published in August 2012 by Chambers Harrap Publishers. == History == Originally published in 1870 by the Reverend E. Cobham Brewer, it was aimed at the growing number of people who did not have a universi...

Ice Girl

OK

Andrew Leach

10:05 AM

Perhaps "at home and abroad"

Jasper Loy

Good and evil

Fork and spoon

Black and white

Fruits and vegetables

Andrew Leach

If you're going to hand all these to someone else, don't forget to say you asked around.

Jasper Loy

Quick and dirty

Ice Girl

@AndrewLeach OK. Sure

Andrew Leach

Oh yes. I like quick and dirty, in the right circumstances.

Programming, of course. Quick and dirty fix.

Ice Girl

10:10 AM

what does quick and dirty means?

Andrew Leach

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/…

> informal , chiefly US Makeshift; done or produced hastily

Jasper Loy

Hit and run

Andrew Leach

That is, done quickly but not necessarily well.

Ice Girl

OK

Jasper Loy

Spick and span

Ice Girl

10:12 AM

Really thanks

Jasper Loy

No problem, just add a million dollars to my bank account.

Ice Girl

OK

:)

Andrew Leach

A lot of these will be in ODO if they're not obvious.

hue and cry:

> 1.1 historical A loud cry calling for the pursuit and capture of a criminal. In former English law, the cry had to be raised by the inhabitants of a hundred in which a robbery had been committed, if they were not to become liable for the damages suffered by the victim.

Ice Girl

Are they correct? headmind, software, no hole, mutual justice, administer a meeting, sound compassion, button stroke

@JasperLoy ??

Hi Ice Boy

@IceBoy can you help me?

@AndrewLeach Really thanks.

:)

Robusto

10:32 AM

@Cerberus Magic?

Jasper Loy

@Robusto You are up very early on a Sat morning, lol.

Robusto

It's 6:30. Hardly early for me.

Jasper Loy

I slept at 10 am and woke up at 5 pm.

Robusto

YMMV

Jasper Loy

I should try to go back to normal hours soon.

Robusto

12:42 PM

Political Correctness Gone Mad: The song "Tit Willow" from The Mikado is listed in the track list as "T*t Willow" . . . .

Hey, assholes: It's a bird.

Etymonline on the subject: tit 1540s, a word used for any small animal or object (as in compound forms such as titmouse, tomtit, etc.); also used of small horses. Similar words in related senses are found in Scandinavian (Icelandic tittr, Norwegian tita "a little bird"), but the connection and origin are obscure; perhaps, as OED suggests, the word is merely suggestive of something small.

Ice Boy

12:55 PM

pre-silicone days

so it two or more of these small birds landed on a jack ass you would have T & A?

Ice Boy

1:44 PM

@AndrewLeach may I discuss the marking of my question as a "duplicate"?

Andrew Leach

That would be this one, persumably...

-1

Q: How to read “A = (πr)²” so as not to mistake it for “A = πr²”

None of the 26 answers given here, or the 5 answers given here mentions any similarity between the pronunciation of E = mc² and A = πr², yet I still remain confusioned as to what distinguishes the reading of E = (mc)² and A = (πr)² with the reading of the first two.

I'm not sure how I can help. I didn't vote on that.

But the answer to your question is, Yes: discuss away.

Ice Boy

the two formulas are not duplicates

Mitch

@Aerovistae Was it 'meander'? or 'sporadic'? 'spartan', 'cretin', 'hyperborean'?

Andrew Leach

Could you spell out your confusion explicitly? This question ("How to read...") is answered by the first question you link to. What is not clear about "the quantity πr squared" or "πr all squared"? — Andrew Leach ♦ yesterday

Mitch

@Cerberus I was going to give 'the hoi polloi' just to get you but that's not geographical.

Ice Boy

1:57 PM

pi is a constant and c is a constant

pi is not squared, while c is

Andrew Leach

Your question could just as easily be How to read “A = (rπ)²” so as not to mistake it for “A = rπ²”

It doesn't matter to the question which is the constant.

Ice Boy

there is a world of difference between a variable and a constant

Mitch

@ArtDesire 1) if combining taste and ecstatic, your rendering would not be the natural accent and therefore hard to pronounce and hard to remember. 2) if pronounced naturally, the end sounds like 'static' which while not exactly negative, might not be what you really want.

Andrew Leach

The question is about how to avoid misinterpreting the brackets.

Jasper Loy

2:11 PM

0

A: Function of "or"

wine, beer, or cider, spices, sugar, and usually baked apples can be interpreted as (wine, beer, or cider), spices, sugar, and usually baked apples or wine, beer, or (cider, spices, sugar, and usually baked apples) One would need more than the language itself to know which the re...

What do you think of this answer? Hmm...

Andrew Leach

@IceBoy The question is borderline on-topic on ELU; if you feel that what the symbols respresent (variable vs constant) is important, then the question needs to be asked on math.stackexchange.com, making clear the difference between E=mc², E=(mc)², A=πr² and A=(πr)². But I don't think you'll get a different answer, myself.

Ice Boy

@AndrewLeach thanks

Jasper Loy

It seems that my country blocks about 100 websites while China blocks over 60,000, LOL.

Ice Boy

as the student replied to the teacher, "if I could spell out my confusion, I wouldn't be confused" :-)
saying "the quantity πr squared" sounds too similar to "πr squared"
I believe we need to read them in two completely different ways to emphasize the difference in meaning as much as possible
Thus utilising the inborn nature of our brains to associate different meaning to different sounds

this is just my opinion

tchrist

@Mitch You meant Leander or Ahab, Scots or Minoan, or Conan.

Andrew Leach

2:25 PM

@IceBoy The answers to both your question and the linked duplicate answer that. If they don't answer that, you need to edit your question to say why they don't.

Ice Boy

I don't like changing the question after I ask it :(

@AndrewLeach the emphasis on the difference in meaning came to me later

I should have thought about it more before asking

Andrew Leach

@IceBoy Have you read this answer? It's written to answer a particular question, but can be extended generally.

4

A: How much research is needed?

Although I've referenced a linked question this question is likely to be a useful reference. It's perfectly reasonable for reviewers to assume that a common expression can be explained by consulting ordinary reference works. They shouldn't have to do that search. If it can't be, it's up to the a...

Ice Boy

@AndrewLeach thanks for the guidelines :-)

tchrist

2:54 PM

@Cerberus Yours is a simple question: a second looks like the only constant unit of time we use, given how a minute, hour, day, week, month, and year all vary in length, while the second alone is involate. This is why we must all start thinking in decaseconds and hectoseconds and kibiseconds and myriaseconds and megaseconds. It will make us programmers’ lives so much easier, so kindly conform. Plus a “tridecamebisecond” sounds way better than a “year” in metri causa.

Robusto

3:15 PM

@tchrist: for your amusement: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/18212838#18212838

Cerberus

@tchrist What shape does a second have, how tall is it, and what colour?

I am all in favour of decimating our time system! Our minutes and hours are unnecessarily inefficient, as are our months.

Weeks and years have some use, as do days.

Robusto

@Cerberus Nonsense. A month lasts a month, no more, no less. Whether it's February or July, you may be sure that it will last exactly one month.

What I wonder is how we arrived at seven for the number of days in a week.

Cerberus

We need to pick one of those three and make it a decimal power of a second; the other two will have to remain odd numbers. But the rest can be streamlined.

@Robusto That is actually interesting: I believe other cultures have had longer and shorter weeks.

But not by much.

Apparently, one day off for six days of work was felt to be optimal.

Robusto

I would favor a recasting of months into 13 per year, leaving one extra day for New Year's, which would be between Ultimo (the month after december) 28th and January 1.

@Cerberus I'm almost certain it's biblical somehow.

Cerberus

@tchrist Why in metri causa? The noun phrase metri causa in the ablative is used adverbially as "for the sake of metre".

Robusto

3:26 PM

On leap years, we'd have two extra days after Ultimo 28. The first would be called Leap Day, and it would come right before New Year's Day.

See you all on Ultimo 12th!

Cerberus

@Robusto I thought there were other cultures that also had seven days...

Robusto

The added advantage of my scheme is that every day of a month would fall on the same day of the week.

@Cerberus I'm sure the bible stole from all kinds of sources.

Cerberus

It did.

Robusto

There you go.

Cerberus

@Robusto You mean June 1 would be a Monday next year, if it fell on a Monday this year?

Robusto

3:29 PM

@Cerberus June 1 would always be on a Sunday.

If it's the 7th, it's a Saturday.

Isn't that a great plan? Of course it is. Which is why it will never fly.

tchrist

The under-appreciated tridecamebisecond is a comfortably constant 31,457,280 seconds year in and year out, a pleasure to poets and programmers alike.

Cerberus

@Robusto Why on a Sunday, not on a Monday?

Monday being the first day of the week.

Robusto

@Cerberus Why not?

Cerberus

It would be like...

tchrist

Meanwhile, our annus horribilis-or if you prefer, our annus velut luna statu variabilis— though commonly accounted either 31,556,952 or 31,556,926 seconds, ranges between some 31,535,998 andperhaps 31,622,403 seconds. Even the much-vaunted sidereal year stood at 31,558,149 seconds plus 763,545,600 nanoseconds at the previous millennium's last year's first day's noon (read: at 2000-01-01 12:00:00Z).

Robusto

3:31 PM

@Cerberus You're being a slave to biblical thinking again. "And on the seventh day he rested . . ." Fuck that. Let him rest on the first day.

tchrist

Let whatever slight difference that accrues between a sidereal year and the laudable tridecamebisecond, often 78.72 kiloseconds, be known as our Jubilation Seconds, a new paid public holiday.

Robusto

Got change for a nickel?

tchrist

The nickel never changes.

Robusto

Don't try to buffalo me.

tchrist

@Cerberus Consider yourself trolled.

Indian giver!

Robusto

3:33 PM

Trollus and Cressida.

Cerberus

Robusto

Styrofoam! Bad doggy!

Cerberus

@tchrist Our year or moon variable in state?

@tchrist Bastard!

@Robusto That was a symbolisation of Sunday on the 1st of the month.

@Robusto spits on Bible

@Mitch You're evil!! What did you need me for?

tchrist

What, you don’t know whether to attach the statu variabilis to the annus or to the luna? It was annus velut luna, so belike the both of them.

Cerberus

@tchrist Dutch has weder/weer, which now means "again, back".

But no doubt it once meant the same thing as whether's ancestor that you mentioned.

tchrist

3:37 PM

OHG weder ≠ G weiter

Cerberus

Not related?

tchrist

I think not.

Cerberus

Dutch -ed and German -eit are usually reflexes of the same root.

Breit/breed...

tchrist

But strangler things have happened.

Cerberus

Leit/leed...

However, -eit can also correspond to -ijd.

So weiter may be related to weit, which no doubt corresponds to wijd.

Cf. Zeit/tijd, seite/zijde...

tchrist

3:40 PM

Isn’t weiter just the comparative of weit?

Cerberus

Quite possibly.

But that would be wijder in Dutch.

Except that Dutch wijder just means "wider" (English), the main sense of the root.

Interestingly, German also has wi(e)der.

Which also means "again, back".

(Irrelevant fact: Dutch weer/weder can also mean "wheather", like German Wetter.)

(But a heather is a heester in Dutch...at least I assume the two words for shrubs are related.)

tchrist

@Robusto It is more rational, and more seasonally convenient, to place any bonus day right after Midsummer’ Day. Call it Overlithe. It’s more fun to have a free holiday by doubling up the one at summer’s solstice than at winter’s, because who wants to sleep off a heavy drunk at twenty degrees south of zero? That’s why they have that Frozen Dead Guy festival in Nederland, you know.

Split the intercalary days between Yule and Lithe.

But allot any extra one to Lithe. It’s warmer then.

Cerberus

gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WNT&id=M084271

So Dutch had weder "which of two". It died out in the Middle Ages.

The other weder is apparently unrelated, meaning "against". It led to weer/weder "again, back". gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WNT&id=M084270 Cf. withershins.

tchrist

Just as intercalary days count towards no month in particular, they must also be absolved of any hebdomadal responsibilities as well. They would always by whollidays.

@Cerberus Ahah! I thought that might have been the case.

Cerberus

nods

tchrist

3:54 PM

The two winter ones would be 1 and 2 Yule, not any day of any week nor of any month. The three summer ones would be 1 Lithe, Midsummer’s Day, and 2 Lithe. You would slip in Overlithe right after Midsummer’s Day as needed.

I’m sure the Europeans would hate it, requiring us to have a 1 Lithe, 2 Lithe, and 3 Lithe, but then what do you do about Overlithe, make it Pie Day?

Now every month starts on the same day. You’re right, @Rob, it would be much better that way.

Cerberus

Why the Europeans in particular?

tchrist

The French obsession with regularity.

But since the year is circular, perhaps having a bonus Pi Day now and then doesn’t seem so bad.

Cerberus

Hah.

tchrist

The French would probably want us to treasure up the intercalary days biennially so that we could have ten of them every two years.

Cerberus

If only the French had been a little bit more thorough and given us decimal times.

tchrist

4:00 PM

The basic flaw in modern thinking is the silly notion that Sunday must always follow Saturday. I see no need for intercalary days to belong to any week at all, let alone to any month.

Cerberus

It is a possibility.

tchrist

I guess Lithe would be Ruhe in German. I don’t know what it would be Dutch.

Cerberus

When is Lithe again?

tchrist

It’s the three-day intercalary holiday centered about Midsummer’s Day.

Or four.

Laȝamonn wrote: He þonkede hire ȝeorne mid liðfulle worden.

So litheful was restful.

Or mellow.

Gentle and calm.

NB: Lithe ≠ Lethe.

Rather, lithe < OE. líðe = OS. lîthi, OHG. lindi (MHG. linde, mod.G. lind) soft, gentle, mild :– OTeut. type ∗linþjo-, f. Teut. and WAryan root ∗len-, whence lin v., ONor. lin-r soft, L. lentus slow.

It hates my stars.

user4550

what more appropriate than to do this here?

what does this mean?

tchrist

4:09 PM

It means what it says and says what it means.

You, however, do not.

user4550

i don't understand it

tell me...

tchrist

What not to understand?

Ice Boy

@user4550 it means it is a good time to do it

tchrist

Got verb?

No, I meant that her whole problem is that she doesn’t understand the rules for verb elision. Not yours.

Cerberus

@tchrist And lenis?

@user4550 What they mean is probably what [is] more appropriate than to do this here?

tchrist

4:13 PM

Shucks, and here I was all prepared for linen and linum, but not for lenis.

Ice Boy

@user4550 actually it means it is an appropriate time to do it here

it is a rhetorical question

tchrist

I think you’re going to have to weave together any threads between lenis and lentus yourself, as my archaeology stops at Rome.

user4550

thank you

Cerberus

@AndrewLeach Did you delete this message?:

That really wasn't necessary.

tchrist

ssh

Cerberus

4:17 PM

@AndrewLeach Did you understand the context?

Andrew Leach

I understand that George makes inappropriate references. Some of the context is in other messages also removed; and it carries on in much the same vein from his last appearance here.

Ice Boy

give the guy a chance

Cerberus

@AndrewLeach I do not believe that is the context of his line.

tchrist

Nil sub sole novum.

Cerberus

He has a computer at his school named "Cerberus".

And he has never been creepy towards me, so I don't need anything censored from him.

Ice Boy

4:22 PM

he is not mean spirited

Cerberus

In any case, perhaps your warning was enough without the censorship.

just immature

Aren't we all?

:D

Dixi.

4:23 PM

Masonry.

Ice Boy

@Cerberus what is "Dixi"?

Cerberus

It is Latin for "I have spoken".

tchrist

Ipse dixit.

Cerberus

Used by a figure of authority to indicate that his verdict has been made known.

tchrist

As is mine.

Cerberus

4:24 PM

Or her.

Ice Boy

you guys and your erudite vernacular

Cerberus

It's not vernacular, it's Latin!

tchrist

People who juxtapose erudite with vernacular have no cause for complaint.

Ice Boy

I'm not complaining

I'm admiring

back to the math cave batman

tchrist

Oh those wacky Bretons!

I told you the French would want 1,2,3 Lithe.

And get all hung up about Overlithe.

Harvestmonth and Summonth don’t sound so bad.

You know, I think I’d rather enjoy months named for their natures not their numbers.

> In Britain, a contemporary wit mocked the Republican Calendar by calling the months: Wheezy, Sneezy and Freezy; Slippy, Drippy and Nippy; Showery, Flowery and Bowery; Wheaty, Heaty and Sweety.

Those are nice, too.

Easier to rhyme than September, they would be.

Though harder than May and June.

Mitch

4:39 PM

@tchrist Conan? I don't get that one. as in O'Brian or as in Schwarzenegger?

Cerberus

@IceBoy Vernacular means "home-born".

So "native".

tchrist

A not a little summery, alas.

@Mitch The Cimmerian context.

Ice Boy

4:53 PM

:D

Cerberus

A lovely young lady.

Robusto

5:27 PM

@tchrist That fucks up the day/week correspondence. Unless you specify that the solstices fall on month starts or ends, which might be hard to do.

Mitch

5:49 PM

@tchrist I had no idea! (That he was Cimmerian). I just read recently that the Cimmerians the Greeks referred to never existed, but that the Cimmerians they didn't know about did exist. I know, I don't get it either.

Robusto

6:17 PM

@Mitch As in Robert E. Howard. His Conan was well beyond Arnold's capabilities.

Cerberus

6:42 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 anonabox : a Tor hardware router (Suspended)

Jasper Loy

7:00 PM

1

Q: Function of "or"

A hot drink that is made with wine, beer, or cider, spices, sugar, and usually baked apples and is traditionally served in a large bowl especially at Christmastime (Merriam Webser-wassail) Is a possible recipe like this? wine, spices, sugar and apples? Does this or cover only wine, beer...