English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

7:00 PM

what there is is a bunch of idiots willing to vote for jingoistic bastards who demand independence on "nationalistic" grounds

Mitch

What's being portrayed in the media? that the Crimea is being invaded by Russia (and the Crimeans don't like it)?

Cerberus

@GlenTheUdderboat Yes. The solution to that problem lies elsewhere. Revise the tax system. Cut subsidies. Of course there will sometimes be voices desiring to jettison, say, Wallonia, but only because they're not allowed to change the system, and it's not a majority.

@Jez That's not how I read it...somewhat lazy, it was a huge war with lots of casualties!

And it took ages!

Jez

Irish War of Independence

The Irish War of Independence () or Anglo-Irish War was a guerrilla war fought between the Irish Republican Army (IRA) (army of the self-proclaimed Irish Republic) and the British Government and its forces in Ireland. It began with the Soloheadbeg ambush on 21 January 1919, when two members of the armed police force, the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC), were attacked and killed in County Tipperary. The Irish Republic had issued a Declaration of Independence in Dublin earlier that same day. The Irish Volunteers—later renamed the Irish Republican Army (IRA)—targeted RIC and British Army ba...

total dead: about 2000

hardly a major war. more a "please don't break off... oh fine, alright."

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus Say, the Netherlands are fed up with Limboland. Would the idea of getting rid of them be properly called "separatist"? Or is there no such symmetry? :)

Jez

on the other hand: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War

second Chechen war: Total killed military/civilian: 54,402–74,402

Cerberus

7:03 PM

@Jez It is hard to say. But I'm not saying autonomy cannot lead to independence (it can), but rather that that is never what the capital intends by granting autonomy. This in order to support my thesis that states really, really hate ceding territory. Even democratic states hate it, although of course they usually would not go nearly as far in repressing a rebellion as, say, Russia.

@GlenTheUdderboat You could call it that, but the word is normally used for when a smaller part wants to separate. That is also because the capital rarely, if ever, wants to lose territory, I would say.

Jez

well then, you can say that Blair's government was extremely incompetent in their judgement.

if their judgement was that more autonomy would be less likely to lead to independence

why they would think that I don't know

Cerberus

@Jez Sure, not as bloody as that.

Jez

you described it as "huge"

Glen The Udderboat

Is Ukraine a country in Risk?

Mitch

What's the point, really, of invading. What do you get?

Cerberus

7:06 PM

@Jez Another reason to grant autonomy is in order to prevent a second IRA, ETA...

FumbleFingers

Good lord! That Susan can be incredibly recalcitrant!

Jez

@Cerberus has Spain granted autonomy to the Basque region? and has ETA been defeated?

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers FF, ignore her. Don't let the situation escalate, her comment has been flagged.

@Jez Yes, and semi-yes.

Also Catalonia.

Jez

yes? the Basque region and Catalonia are part of Spain

they're mere regions.

Cerberus

Of course they are?

Jez

7:07 PM

the Scottish aren't batting for a region, they already are a region

Cerberus

They have considerable autonomy.

Of course they want more.

Jez

ok i meant independence

Cerberus

They do not have independence, of course.

And the situation seems to be fairly stable.

Mitch

@GlenTheUdderboat Yes!

Jez

yeah but not in Scotland.

Cerberus

7:08 PM

But you should realise that the granting of autonomy to regions in democratic countries is fairly new, it's all an experiment. Sometimes it's enough to soothe them; at other times, it may lead to more and more audacity, possibly ending in independence, although I think that would be the first case in history, if Scotland truly voted for independence!

FumbleFingers

@Cerberus I've just had Kitfox in chat with the two of us trying to smotth things over, but Susan is having none of it. The stupid thing is I actually think I had a defensible position, but I've caved in on everything and she still wants blood!

Cerberus

@Jez Less so in Scotland, yes.

@FumbleFingers Ignore her, just don't talk to her.

That's the best approach at the moment, I think.

Jez

@Cerberus the granting of autonomy to regions in democratic countries seems to be a relatively rare event

FumbleFingers

@Cerberus Yes, that was your first advice, and I was going to take it. But then Kitfox arrived so I felt I had to stick around

Glen The Udderboat

Are the desires of some Crimeans to join Russia mostly opportunistic, or are some groups already repressed by Ukraine?

its_me

7:10 PM

Hello, is there a word that describes both chicken and meat? (considering meat is flesh of a mammal, by definition)

FumbleFingers

@Jez Maybe not. The Scots might yet go for it (if they're daft enough!)

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers Yeah, sure. But I mean now.

Jez

@FumbleFingers no, i'd count Scotland as already being one of those rare events (see what I said about Blair's government above)

the whole Scottish parliament has already been granted

gifted, you might say, to the nationalists

Cerberus

@GlenTheUdderboat I think they fear some (minor?) repression from the new Ukrainian government; but I rather think they have been on the fence for many decades, and now with the change in government and Russian propaganda and incitement in the Crimea (no doubt), the balance has tipped from "we will agree to remain technically part of Ukraine but in practice completely independent" (the current situation) to "we want official independence".

Jez

what I find funny is some Americans cheering the scottish independence movement on. I wonder whose side they'd be on if some state was trying to secede from their precious USA! USA! USA!

FumbleFingers

7:12 PM

@Jez Well, the Scots are a bolshie lot, so they might just go for it out of bloody-mindedness. But hopefully as the issues crystalise they'll see sense.

tchrist

@its_me That is wrong. Meat is not defined to be mammalian flesh.

Jez

@FumbleFingers i think my point earlier is that the nationalists have been explicitly allowed to "go for it"

tchrist

It’s animal flesh.

Mitch

@Jez Texas. Texas will be the first one to go.

Jez

they have not forced it to happen

FumbleFingers

7:13 PM

@Jez If it weren't for those same misguided Americans funding IRA terrorism for decades we'd probably not have a problem over there.

Jez

@Mitch yes. as in, never.

tchrist

Since dinosaurs are animals, that’s already included.

Mitch

Never only because people are well fed.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus Does Ukraine or Crimea receive the rent for the Russian bases (the fleet)?

Cerberus

@Jez A parliament in itself is unremarkable. Throughout Europe, minor regions and cities have parliaments, like Hamburg.

tchrist

7:14 PM

@Mitch ’Gainst the Rules.

@Cerberus Or Iceland.

Jez

@Cerberus not one that comes with a referendum on independence.

that's a parliament set up for an independent country. madness.

Mitch

Ha ha. I mean that as no insult to Texans in particular. I mean that everybody is materially happy so there's no need for secession.

Jez

at least, madness if your intention is to prevent independence

@Mitch people are materially happy in Scotland

Mitch

@tchrist rules, just make it harder. make a consititutional amendment to allow it to go.

Cerberus

@tchrist What do you mean? Iceland is independent.

Jez

7:16 PM

that's clearly not the only criterion

its_me

@tchrist Google dic. to blame

Cerberus

@Jez The referendum is indeed unusual (not the parliament).

its_me

@tchrist thanks!

tchrist

@its_me GOOGLE IS NOT A DICTIONARY

Cerberus

It tries to be...

Mitch

7:16 PM

@Jez No they're not. Have they looked at the sky lately? It's been grey since that one day in the summer of 83.

its_me

@tchrist I meant "define meat"

Google gives the meaning at the top

Jez

@Cerberus but anyway, the idea that it was to stop the equivalent of an independent Ireland seems bogus. an equivalent to the Irish war of independence was never on the cards

Mitch

@tchrist Uh oh.

I just did brain surgery on myself using google.

tchrist

My previous statement remains in full effect.

its_me

ok :P

Cerberus

7:18 PM

@Jez Why not?

Mitch

And all can see how successful it were.

Jez

@Cerberus because a) the rest of the UK has land access to Scotland b) the vast majority of Scottish had no desire for armed conflict

FumbleFingers

@Cerberus I see Wikipedia says the modern military in Ukraine was completely inherited from the Soviet Union. Most likely that means even if they do have significant capability, it wouldn't be easy to get them to fight Russia.

Cerberus

@its_me It depends on context. On a menu, a meat course is usually not fowl.

Glen The Udderboat

@FumbleFingers Do they have the big hats too?

Cerberus

7:19 PM

@Jez Of course the situation in modern Scotland is not the exact same as in the Ireland of the 1910s.

its_me

@Cerberus So in general context all flesh can be referred to as "meat", correct?

tchrist

1 a Food in general; anything used as nourishment for men or animals; usually, solid food, in contradistinction to drink.
1 e The edible part of fruits, nuts, eggs, etc.: the pulp, kernel, yolk and white, etc. in contradistinction to the rind, peel, or shell.
2 A kind of food, an article of food, a ‘dish’.
3 a The flesh of animals used for food;
3 d Applied proleptically to living animals such as are killed for food; in early use chiefly in wild meat = ‘game’. In modern hunting use (U.S.) one’s quarry or prey.

Jez

@Cerberus it's not even similar

Cerberus

@its_me Yes, even fish sometimes, and even fruits!

Mitch

Does anyone remember the ELU question about Sherlock Holmes and Watson saying some 'ungrammatical' thing like 'were' when 'was' is the usual?

its_me

7:20 PM

Ah!

FumbleFingers

@GlenTheUdderboat no idea. I thought Russians had little hats (the ex-Russian army hat I once picked up at a Microsoft trade fair was tiny - I put that down to the fact that they have too many kids in the army)

Mitch

or pointy heads

tchrist

@Mitch no

its_me

@tchrist Thanks. I'll stop using Google

Jez

@Cerberus You ever play Europa Universalis 3? Blair basically clicked on "create vassals", clicked on Scotland, then clicked on Scotland and clicked "end vassalization"

Mitch

7:21 PM

@tchrist Thanks.

Cerberus

@Jez Haha, yes, I have played it.

Mitch

@Jez They can do that? It seems too easy.

Cerberus

And, no, that is not at all what Blair intended, I believe, even though the effect may possibly be that (although currently it seems far more likely that Scotland will not vote for independence).

Jez

i don't see why. if you want to give a region independence you can generally find a bunch of nationalists who want power and are willing to take it from you

Mitch

1

Q: Strange use of the past tense by Dr. Watson in the Sherlock series

I’m trying to correctly identify the reason why the past tense of ‘’to be’’ is used in the following context: Sherlock Season 3 Episode 3 The scene: Dr. Watson is about to enter a drug den. His wife spots some kind of weapon tucked into his trousers and the following dialogue takes place: ...

Cerberus

7:22 PM

@Jez But a bunch of nationalist are not enough for independence.

You need a majority. And that you usually do not get.

Jez

do you need a majority?

Glen The Udderboat

So. Strategy? Let Crimea go right away. Then the "European" support will be substantially larger (%) than the remaining "Russian" support in the East. At least keep the east, if they want to. ???

Jez

or do you just declare that an area is independent

Mitch

I'm hearing 'were' -all- the time now in down-market BrE.

Cerberus

@Jez Yes, more or less.

Mitch

7:23 PM

(on TV)

Jez

@Cerberus why?

tchrist

@Mitch It’s were because loads of crackheads is plural.

FumbleFingers

@GlenTheUdderboat my scheduled movie for tonight is Come and See, so I'll doubtless know more about the Russian military by tomorrow!

Cerberus

@Jez That is not at all realistic in this scenario.

@GlenTheUdderboat I believe the European support is already greater in the country as a whole, if that's what you mean.

tchrist

@Cerberus Has history ever recorded an occasion on which the majority has actually been right in their tyrannical overlording of minorities?

Cerberus

7:25 PM

"Right"?

@Mitch Huh?

Define right.

Ethically correct.

Winners are always right.

Mitch

@tchrist Sure, in the quotation, but having accidentally heard that exact scene, I don't think the transcript or what I heard sounded grammatical at all. there was definitely a 'mistake' and I'm hearing it a lot.

tchrist

7:25 PM

Or quite simply, ethical.

Cerberus

@tchrist I think that is a paradox, tyrannical right?

Or just a plain contradiction in terms.

Glen The Udderboat

Winners define ethics.

Cerberus

If it be a paradox, you'd better explain it.

tchrist

No, it’s a loaded question.

Mitch

@tchrist so I'm guessing you aren't hearing the same.

tchrist

7:27 PM

Just because one more person votes for something to happen compared with the number voting opposed does not make it a right thing to do.

Cerberus

Of course.

What about it?

tchrist

Is this one of those occasions?

Glen The Udderboat

Example. If you kill everybody who think something isn't right, then that thing is right to everybody remaining.

Mitch

Solved!

Cerberus

@tchrist I'm not entirely sure what the Crimeans fear Kiev will do to them, and the interests of humanity at large and of the Crimeans themselves may not be aligned. But, yes, it seems likely that it would be better for humanity and the Crimeans if they remained autonomous within Ukraine and not let the Russians in c.q. vote for independence.

Glen The Udderboat

7:29 PM

Unless they're not sure...

Mitch

what is 'c.q.'

Cerberus

@GlenTheUdderboat You have an unusual definition of "right".

@Mitch Casu quo.

I believe it is less used in English, but I couldn't think of an laternative!

Mitch

what is that?

Cerberus

Shoot me.

"Which means, in this case, ..." — something like that.

Mitch

in such a case..

but I don't get what the case is.

Glen The Udderboat

7:31 PM

@Cerberus Oh? Aren't morals an evolutionary solution becoming convention?

Mitch

I'm not able to resolve the anaphora well.

Cerberus

@Mitch Voting for independence means more or less switching to the Russian side in this case.

@GlenTheUdderboat From an objective perspective, perhaps. But "right" is from a very subjective perspective.

There was a vote for independence planned in May. Now it has been advanced to March, I believe.

The Crimean government has also decided to let the Russians in and collaborate with them against what remained of Ukrainian control and support for Ukraine.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus No, I just told you: it isn't really.

Cerberus

What isn't what?

Glen The Udderboat

Morals, subjective.

Cerberus

7:35 PM

Uhh.

I don't know what you mean.

Glen The Udderboat

Right, in the long run, is what works.

Cerberus

When you say, "x is morally right", you are speaking from your own, subjective point of view.

Mitch

Now that the Olympics are over, I guess they have to find something to do.

Cerberus

If you use "right" in a different way, it is a confusing word game that would fare better with a different word and exact definitions.

@Mitch They're skipping the Paralympics in Sochi, some world leaders.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus I don't say such thing. But I could (but won't) say "reproduction is right".

Cerberus

7:37 PM

The word is confusing me.

Mitch

@Cerberus the Paralympics too? well, the usual Olympics is what everyone knows about.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus Many ethical rules observed in many societies can be explained by evolutionary game theory. They tend to be stable.

Jez

@Mitch pushing the envelope. they got no punishment from the IOC (morons) or the West in general (pussies) for their homophobia and general anti-freedom policies, so they see how far they can go in annexing territory

Cerberus

@Mitch But!

@GlenTheUdderboat Yes, of course.

Or by evolutionary theory, perhaps.

Mitch

@Jez Why do they care so much? just leave things alone.

I think the military is bored.

Jez

7:40 PM

care about Crimea you mean? why does any dictatorship care about increasing its territory?

Mitch

Is Tymoshenko a possibility or is she not well enough to try for leadership?

Jez

conquest seems to be a fundamental human desire

Mitch

@Jez I know it's sort of a stupid question, but still.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus Evolutionary theory alone isn't enough really. The ethical rule needs to be resistant to defection.

Cerberus

@Mitch She represents only one factions of oligarchs, and she has said that she will not run for president.

Mitch

7:41 PM

@Jez Sure. But why don't people read history and realize it just comes out bad in the end.

Cerberus

She is going to Germany for an operation, I think, but I think she could theoretically rule from her wheelchair at some point.

Jez

does it always? Russia had to become a big nation somehow; by the people who originally won out in that region

the US conquest of the native Americans isn't seen as turning out badly... by the victors

Mitch

@Jez It was only a conquest from the native point of view. From the Americans, they were an annoyance.

Jez

so?

Mitch

The maps (that they had laid out) were already laid out.

Jez

7:43 PM

that's just terminology

Glen The Udderboat

@Jez Interestingly, that makes any discussion of right and wrong moot. Just make sure you win or die.

Mitch

SUre.

Jez

the Russians could see Crimeans who don't support them as "an annoyance"

Mitch

@GlenTheUdderboat and label the things how you like.

@Jez it may turn out that way.

Glen The Udderboat

So, is this a linguistic conflict??

Mitch

7:45 PM

BUt for the US, the population numbers don't really make it look to the US like they were conquering or colonizing, just inhabiting.

@GlenTheUdderboat war of words.

Jez

@Mitch huh? the population numbers?

millions of natives were killed

that's bigger than the Holocaust

Cerberus

Is it?

I think 3 million Jews were killed?

How many Indians?

Glen The Udderboat

Does the situation in Ukraine require comparison to other historical situations, I wonder?

Jez

Population history of the indigenous peoples of the Americas

The population figure for Indigenous peoples in the Americas before the 1492 voyage of Christopher Columbus has proven difficult to establish. Scholars rely on archaeological data and written records from settlers from the Old World. Most scholars writing at the end of the 19th century estimated the pre-Columbian population at about 10 million; by the end of the 20th century the scholarly consensus had shifted to about 50 million, with some arguing for 100 million or more. Contact with the New World led to the European colonization of the Americas, in which millions of immigrants from t...

> Most scholars writing at the end of the 19th century estimated the pre-Columbian population at about 10 million; by the end of the 20th century the scholarly consensus had shifted to about 50 million, with some arguing for 100 million or more

Glen The Udderboat

Is the historical record predictive of current situations?

Cerberus

7:52 PM

@GlenTheUdderboat Does any situation?

@GlenTheUdderboat To some extent. But human society is infinitely more complex than, say, some physics experiment, or a computer program.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus I object to 'infinitely'.

Cerberus

In a manner of speaking.

A figure of speech. Hyperbole.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus I object to that manner of speaking.

Cerberus

shrugs

Mitch

@Jez sure. The great proportion of those were in central and south america.

Glen The Udderboat

7:56 PM

@Cerberus How is this not some physics experiment? :)

Cerberus

Hah.

Jez

@Mitch OK then, well switch US for Spanish nations

Cerberus

I mean an experiment carried out by physicists.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus I hope not. But then there is the simulation argument.

Jez

like Argentina ("the Falklands are so ours, I mean they're closer to our land we stole a couple of hundred years ago than Britain")

Cerberus

7:58 PM

> Two studies have been conducted that attempt to number the natives killed by the United States. The first of these was sponsored by the United States government, and while official does not stand up to scrutiny and is therefore discounted (generally); this estimate shows between 1 million to 4 million killed. The second study was not sponsored by the US Government but was done from independent researchers. This study estimated populations and population reductions using later census data. Two figures are given, both low and high, at: between 10 million and 114 million Indians as a direct …

@GlenTheUdderboat Well, who knows? We could all be dreaming anyway.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus More likely: just you.

Cerberus

Of course it is all a bit vague and uncertain. But let's all agree on "many".

@GlenTheUdderboat Even more likely: just you.

Glen The Udderboat

lol

Cerberus

Indian woman dressed up as Kali.

Glen The Udderboat

So, what's the likely outcome in Ukraine? A bit more fuss, Crimea going from autonomous in Ukraine to autonomous in Russia? Or what?

Mitch

8:04 PM

Wow that's quite a lot.

30 million noncombatant Russian were killed in WWII.

Cerberus

@GlenTheUdderboat I think the latter.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus The latter? "Or what"?

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah WWII was possibly the worst tragedy in human history.

@GlenTheUdderboat If I say "the latter", that means I'm choosing between two things.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus What metric for worst? Not most death per day for example.

Cerberus

Total deaths and destroyed buildings.

But what other 5-year phenomenon caused more deaths per day?

Glen The Udderboat

8:13 PM

@Cerberus Conflict or tragedy? Tsunami?

Cerberus

Phenomenon, then.

A tsunami does not last five years.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus When did 5 years become a criterion??

Cerberus

Otherwise you cannot compare it.

It becomes meaningless.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus That's sort of my point.

Cerberus

If you count the number of people dying in a period of 200 milliseconds, I'm sure you can get other (meaningless) records.

Glen The Udderboat

8:16 PM

Indeed.

Cerberus

But WWII as a phenomenon is far from meaningless, it is coherent.

But I need to go to Hema now and AH.

Glen The Udderboat

lol. hurry.

Cerberus

Besides, I don't think a natural disaster is as much a tragedy as a conflict is.

WWII was brought upon humanity by itself.

Later!

Glen The Udderboat

lator

Robusto

8:53 PM

Collie

The Collie is a distinctive type of herding dog, including many related landraces and formal breeds. It originates in Scotland and Northern England. It is a medium-sized, fairly lightly built dog with a pointed snout, and many types have a distinctive white pattern over the shoulders. Collies are very active and agile, and most types have a very strong herding instinct. The collie type has spread through many parts of the world (especially Australia and North America) and has diversified into many varieties, sometimes with mixture from other dog types. Some of the collie types h...

I thought those were supposed to be cute.

Jez

damn dogs

i still have a noisy one yapping outside most days

KitFox

9:08 PM

Three days ago, I got an email asking if I could return a phone call to a user whose name was garbled and left a message three days before that.

I am sooooo glad I don't really work there anymore.

"She said her name was something like 'Migeday'. Can you help her?" "..."

Uh. No.

Cerberus

@Robusto Isn't that an extreme pronunciation of the o like an a, even for an American?

KitFox

Not for our neighborhood.

Cerberus

A barder callie?

KitFox

The emphasis is on the wrong syllable though.

Cerberus

Or even a bahrder kahli?

KitFox

9:11 PM

No, more like boohder callie.

I can't write out the o sound. It's like water dropping.

Cerberus

I would pronounce the goddess as KAH-lee in English.

KitFox

Oh. I've heard it Kah-LEE.

Cerberus

I'm not sure.

KitFox

oo-ah. b(oo-ah)der callie.

But mashed together.

Cerberus

Odd.

KitFox

9:12 PM

Yep.

Stack Exchange

Limerick Machine: She said that I couldn’t go Despite this I’m sure and I know One of these...

posted on March 02, 2014 by sgdi

She said that I couldn’t go Despite this I’m sure and I know One of these days I’ll get my way And she’ll be the one who I show

KitFox

@Matt Interesting limerick.

Jez

@KitFox that seems like some kind of Yankee accent

@StackExchange "she'll be the one whom I'll show" presumably

KitFox

The one to whom I'll show

@Jez Could be because I'm a Yankee.

Jez

Neuww Yoowak

KitFox

9:19 PM

Oh god no.

Jez

that's Yankee innit?

KitFox

Sort of. That's New York yankee. They do all sorts of horrible things there.

Jez

heh

tchrist

@Cerberus Kali and collie are certainly homophones for most native English speakers in North America.

Mitch

@Robusto What is wrong with you? That's not cute?

Cerberus

9:39 PM

@tchrist Remarkable.

Jez

10:22 PM

Hey in US English, what name do you give to a place that sells new cars?

Cerberus

What do you call it?

A car seller?

Jez

i know what i call it

i wanna know what they call it

Cerberus

I won't tell them.

Cerberus

10:40 PM

@Robusto I'm watching your video, and this guys says an American outpost in Georgia led to the war of 2008? That's not the story I've heard.

The cause of the war was a Georgian attack on South Ossetia, possibly provoked or instigated by Russia, but at least seized upon by Russia.

> The European Union said to Ukraine, you must choose between Europe and Russia.

How did they say this? All they did was offer an association agreement, which, by the way, means very little. Some more trade.

His comparison of the protesters in Kiev to people throwing molotov cocktails at the White House is not entirely relevant: of course we do not consider the latter acceptable, because we consider our own governments to be legitimate.

His point stands, though, that blindly encouraging a pro-European revolution is perhaps not the wisest thing to do for the West. But I'm not sure what we have done made much of a different anyway to the protesters.

Robusto

10:58 PM

@Cerberus Unless I were going for an exaggerated Indian accent, the pronunciations of Kali and collie would be identical. That is the "standard" Midwestern accent, the American version of BrE RP.

@Cerberus Listen to the Dan Carlin podcast I linked before that.

@Mitch Collies are cute. Kali is not.

Cerberus

I can't listen to everything!

Robusto

Clearly that is an exaggeration.

Cerberus

@Robusto The American version of RP, really?

Robusto

Yep. It's what the anchormen on TV news use.

Cerberus

Is it at the top of the class chain?