Much more.

Tit-for-tat violence against everyone.

Where by violence I mean gun violence.

But hasn't there always been lots of gun violence?

I believe the statistics have been pointing downwards for many years?

That’s like saying 1968 was just another year.

Black communities across the nation are tinderboxes right now. 99% of them are against Trump. Can you imagine the riots if he's elected? Can you imagine him calling in the troops against them with orders to shoot to kill? More than four dead in Ohio.

Are you unaware of all the shootings in America this summer, this week, this weekend?

Unarmed blacks constantly being killed by white police. Retaliatory shootings all over the place.

Oklahoma. Washington. Baltimore. Illinois. North Carolina. In fewer days than that list is long.

The only thing that could be worse would be if this were April not September.

I have to admit there was not that much in the papers.

But don't such things always happen?

How many people die of gunfire on an average day?

> More than 30,000 people are killed by firearms each year in this country.

That's 82 daily.

Of course it's terrible, but it may help if you put it in perspective.

I’m talking specifically about the sudden rise in retaliatory strikes.

> Every year in the U.S., an average of more than 100,000 people are shot.

Aren't murders often in retaliation of something?

No. These retaliatory strikes are committed against strangers for sectarian reasons.

And doesn't that happen normally?

I do not believe so.

@Cerberus Something seems fishy about the fact that the chart purportedly only factors war deaths for the U.S.A.

People die of homicide from close associates or random armed crimes, they die of suicide constantly. But when people takes the streets to shoot whomever they can because those people are a different color than them, or wear a different uniform, or go to different church, or because someone like them was murdered by police, then that's not the same.

Most gun homicide victims know their killers — and many are killed by people they love.

I’m serious that we’re seeing a different and potentially explosive form of civil unrest right now.

@Tonepoet Perhaps, but that's just one example: the chart suggests that modern times are more peaceful.

@tchrist But that number is still tiny, isn't it?

Just part of the "didn't know his killer" category, which is small but substantial.

@Cerberus That's true, but I'd still like to see domestic deaths in the U.S.A. on it because it's more liberal with gun control laws. It'd be interesting to see if there are fewer gun related deaths now than in the 19th century, even with better weapons available.

There probably are fewer.

Gun deaths have been decreasing for decades in the West, I believe.

Between the delimiting summer holidays of Memorial Day and Labor Day, more than 4,100 died here of gunfire in ways other than suicide. That isn’t the point I’m making though. I’m talking about acts of racial retaliation.

Most people shot are black.

Chicago, for example, has had a very bad summer.

In Baltimore last night, 3 gunmen acting in concert shot 8 strangers, including a 3-year-old.

Note: "acting in concert"

This is not a crime of passion against a loved one.

This is enemy action.

But doesn't that always happen?

Is it new?

I believe you've been plagued by racial riots over time?

This is not Paris.

Nor is it Gaza.

No, multiple-shooter assaults do not “always happen”.

Do they where you live?

Can you think of the last such incident there?

3,000 people have been shot in Chicago this year. What about Amsterdam?

I ask because Amsterdam is considered one of the European murder capitals.

I really don’t think there is any comparison possible here.

It’s about seven times greater.

@tchrist This is pretty much the first list I got off of google for high murder rate cities across the world The only U.S. city on it is New York at 5.6 homicides per 100k vs. Amsterdam's 4.4.

Two years ago.

No.

The 2015 murder rate in Chicago was 18.6/100k.

The list I gave uses 2009 data. That sounds like a shocking increase in violence if New York was comparable to Chicago at that time.

And the rate in the predominantly black South and East sides stands at five times that of the predominantly white North and West sides.

Chicago has twice as many murders as New York but only one sixth its population.

Chicago exceeded the record-breaking 2015 figures by Labor Day of this year.

That leaves a third of the year yet to go.

What I'm saying is that I believe there is a significant risk of deadly rioting in America's black communities if Trump is elected, and of him responding with mass killings committed by armed servicemen against civilians. I’m serious. I do hope I’m wrong, but I am not a loon.

@tchrist Umm by whom?

Our murder rate is low.

@Cerberus dutchamsterdam.nl/…

@Cerberus That's not what the article I linked says.

"Amsterdam tops the list of homicide rates in Western Europe with 4.4 murders per 100,000 people, followed by Glasgow (3.3 per 100,000), Brussels (3 per 100,000) and Prague (2.7 per 100,000). With 0.0016% of people in London being murdered, the city ranks just ahead of Canada and Serbia's largest cities."

Low compared with Chicago or Bogotá, that I grant you.

@Tonepoet Something is wrong with that list.

Chicago is the worst: [Chicago's homicide rate had surpassed that of Los Angeles by 2010 (16.02 per 100,000), and was more than twice that of New York City (7.0 per 100,000) in the same year.[15] By the end of 2015, Chicago's homicide rate would rise to 18.6 per 100,000. ](en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Chicago)

@Mitch Probably. Like I said, it's the first one I got.

@tchrist That's like 20 people yearly.

It's hardly significant if you want to compare rates.

It’s significant for Europe. It is almost unnoticeable here.

It's not significant statistically if it varies by 40% between one year and the next, i.e. just one more gang shooting.

People have no pride anymore. Knives are a real man's weapon.

Charlotte is under occupation by the National Guard.

@Tonepoet Any village in which one person was murdered will outrank Amsterdam.

That's what I mean by less significant.

Amsterdam should step up its game

@tchrist Would you clarify that statement. I doubt this sudden increase in violence is because of Trump. He seems to have only announced his candidacy in June but the Chicago murder rate apparently soared in the first quarter of the year, at least three months beforehand. Do you think his policies will agitate the situation even further or something?

I'm pretty sure the homicide rate in the US is dropping over time. But I don't know if that counts mass shootings or police shootings, both of which make the news.

except for Chicago

his policies are surely agitating

but whether that has resulted in actual increase in homicides is a very questionable inference to make.

@Mitch It includes everything, I believe.

It really is a significant event whenever the National Guard — military soldiers, not police — are sent in because of a civil disturbance. Perhaps you do not recognize this.

It correlates with race relations breaking down horribly.

I believe the militarisation of what the police is normally tasked with has been going on for a long time in America?