English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:00 AM

I can't remember the dialogue, but the daughter expressed her feelings, which had been changed after they had switched bodies, through her speech, before she was going to call off the wedding.

Cerberus

1:10 AM

Yo yo.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I is

Cerberus

Interesting.

By the way, do they also say I is in working-class Canadian?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I was just reading Deke Thomas's comment to snailboat regarding hypernyms.

Cerberus

Oh?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm sure it exists somewhere in Canada, but it's highly non-standard.

Cerberus

1:12 AM

I was reading some answer by him.

Right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> A hypernym, strictly speaking, is a superior class of person or thing, rather than actions.

Aren't actions things?

I mean, they're not concrete objects.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I know it only from British.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You could say so.

I don't see why actions couldn't be/have hyperonyms.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I do. Which makes the distinction in his definition pointless.

Cerberus

Yes.

By the way, it's hyperonym.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

In what language?

Cerberus

1:15 AM

The roots are hyper- + onym- in English.

Or in any other European language: it is an international word.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The OED has hypernym. Good enough for me.

Cerberus

The OED has phenomenas.

And probably medias by now too.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Also perfectly cromulent words.

Cerberus

shrugs

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

ngrams shows hypernym is gaining on hyperonym.

Cerberus

1:17 AM

If you want to commit an offence against aesthetics, why not?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway you should suggest a tag edit, because the tag here is hypernym

Cerberus

wai shouldn't i spell like this

Good idea.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Because nobody else does. But if everyone did, that'd just be the way to do it.

Cerberus

You know many people do.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

esthetics is just subjective. You happen to strongly prefer forms that match the ancient greek or latin. Fine. The fact that other people don't doesn't make them wrong.

Cerberus

1:19 AM

Just look at the Internet.

How do I edit the tag itself?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Please. Nobody spells why as wai unless they are intentionally being funny. They spell it as Y.

@Cerberus I have no idea. I think you need to actually propose a synonym or something.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Very well, Y then.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You mean a synnym.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Post a Meta Q about renaming the tag. I'll make some popcorn.

Cerberus

You have to be consistent!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I do not.

Cerberus

1:21 AM

Do too!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The language itself is not consistent. Why should I be?

Cerberus

Some parts if it are.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

tchrist

Jun 21 at 20:35, by tchrist

Dec 5 '12 at 15:18, by tchrist

> The other terror that scares us from self-trust is our consistency; a reverence for our past act or word because the eyes of others have no other data for computing our orbit than our past acts, and we are loath to disappoint them. ... A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But a wise consistency is a scholar's mark.

tchrist

1:23 AM

Never apocopate the citation, for without the context, you turn sense into nonsense.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus and hyperonym is wiser than hypernym ?

Cerberus

nods

It is the right place for consistency.

It is neither idiom nor a lower register.

Meanwhile, I am drunk.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The fact is that the usage of that word is basically split. Check the ngrams, and compare the varius corpuses.

Cerberus

Most people believe in God. Does that make it our best option?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I appreciate that the original root word may be hyper + onym, but I don't see why I should be shackled to etymology when, eg, essentially no American writers are using that, and half the British ones also don't use it.

@Cerberus That's a completely different question. Belief in God is not at all the same as language. Language works because of consensus.

God doesn't work irregardless of consensus.

Cerberus

1:32 AM

This is not about "working". It is about letting your choice depend on the masses.

Besides, aren't you a hypocrite if you don't write i while on the Internet? It's what most people write.

Anonymous

@Cerberus Me, I capitalize stuff when I'm talking to people who capitalize stuff, and i type like this when i'm not

Anonymous

Stack Exchange chat seems kind of capitalize-y to me.

Anonymous

but other places? i'm content to type like this. i just do what other people do

Cerberus

You have no aesthetic preferences?

Anonymous

Hmm.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:36 AM

@Cerberus Sometimes your choice must depend on the masses. Maybe not fully, but at least partly. That's how language works. If you want to communicate effectively, you have to use words that your audience will accept. I could spend my entire time in this room writing in Chinese and almost nobody here would understand anything. Is that effective communication? Of course not.

But if I talk about feng shui, even though that was a Chinese word, it's now English, because we all agree that it is.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, isn't that a straw man?

Anonymous

That's an interesting question, but I think that the idea of conforming to group norms is a stronger influence on me than my personal aesthetic preferences

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Similarly, hypernym is an English word, because people using that word agree that it is.

Anonymous

Certainly I'd never decide to type everything in lowercase if no one else did, or capitalize things normally if everyone else quit

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No. It's how language works. Language requires consensus.

Cerberus

1:38 AM

@snailboat But have aesthetic preferences, and you will sometimes let them influence your productions. So do we all.

Anonymous

I just do what other people do.

Anonymous

@Cerberus I don't deny that

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So what? Who cares about that?

Anonymous

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Is it really? I would've thought it'd be far ahead by now

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus who cares?! I do! What other purpose would I need a word for if not for using it with other people?

Anonymous

1:39 AM

Huh. Who are all these hyperonym-spellers and why haven't I run into them?

2

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Straw man: "never conform to what other people can easily understand ever". Real point of view: "strike a balance, but don't neglect aesthetics and don't follow the masses in aesthetic choices per se".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah I dunno

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, "is an English word" is a meaningless utterance to me.

Anonymous

@Cerberus In medias res!

Cerberus

Haha.

You've got me there.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:42 AM

@Cerberus Look. I find a word. I use it. The word's utility derives from the fact that other people also use it. You cannot deny that people are using hypernym. Why should I care AT ALL if it has other spellings? What possible difference can it make.

Cerberus

Aesthetics?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Your esthetics and mine are not the same.

Cerberus

What other difference could there be?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So no meaningful difference, then.

Cerberus

Using *hypernym is like having an ugly house. You can do so if you want to.

Mitch

1:46 AM

@Cerberus yeah, cuz you don't unnerstand perfectly good English!

Cerberus

So what?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 This is a chinese room?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus ugly is a meaningless utterance to me.

Cerberus

Are you saying "native speakers" should somehow count towards a consensus, but non-native speakers shouldn't?

Mitch

OK back to seriosity...

question...

10

Q: Idioms, how do they work?

So, my friend and I were chatting the other day. I, being a new father, sent him a picture of my clothesline completely full of my daughter's diapers. Then this dialogue happened: My friend: Woah, babies are really poop factories. Me: No shit. Now, at that point, the chat spiraled out t...

idioms

Cerberus

1:47 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't think so.

Mitch

besides taunting me with the expected question to answer a question "I don't know. how do blankets work?"...

besides that... for you French speakers...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Surely, native speakers opinions about what a language should be count more than non-native speakers. They are the most informed about the language.

Mitch

Wouldn't the appropriate phrase be "C'est le cas de le dire" or something like that?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Not that fluent speakers can't also have valid opinions, but please.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So what? I see no "surely".

tchrist

1:49 AM

@Cerberus See also paranym for paronym.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Okay. What is your point? Besides your random hating on hypernym.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If most people in the world say "he is not work", why shouldn't that be the consensus, irrespective of nativity?

@tchrist Stop it!!

You don't want to incite a drunk Cerberus.

Anonymous

@Cerberus You doff

Mitch

ooh that stings

Anonymous

Aw, now my doff doesn't make any sense.

Cerberus

1:50 AM

Haha.

tchrist

And all the night long it was Donner and Doffer.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus non-native speakers have a different understanding of the language than native speakers do. That's the whole point of even categorizing them as such.

Cerberus

It still does in my mind.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What? Why? That is completely arbitrary. They use the language as they see fit, and you want to conform to their norms.

tchrist

Out out brief candle.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I feel no need to conform to non-native-speaker norms.

Cerberus

1:52 AM

I feel no need to conform to non-literary-speaker norms.

Mitch

Since no one will address my substantive question...I join the fray...

so it must be hypoonym, right?

Cerberus

@Mitch What was it!!

Mitch

4 mins ago, by Mitch

Wouldn't the appropriate phrase be "C'est le cas de le dire" or something like that?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Did I ask you to? No. You were the one who came in here telling me I was using my language wrong. I am not, and I can back it up.

Mitch

(follow my thread backwards)

tchrist

1:53 AM

Ariadne is not to be trusted.

Cerberus

@Mitch What is it supposed to mean? "It is the case of saying it"? I read the lines before it.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think you are not engaging my point.

Anonymous

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, I know people who spell it wai

Anonymous

Why? I dunno.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

afk

Anonymous

I have a friend who types "meen either"

Anonymous

1:56 AM

People type all sorts of stuff.

Anonymous

I used to type "donno" because I thought it more closely reflected how I pronounced it, but people got on my case and I ended up spelling it "dunno". :-)

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 My point is that language is partly a communicative tool and partly an artistic expression. Some people seem to treat it as only the former in words, but (also) as the latter in deeds. That I consider hypocrisy. Innocuous but prevalent.

Mitch

@Cerberus Look at the "Idioms, how do they work" question above. The first thing that came to my mind was the French idiom, which captures the situation perfectly (Or exactly opposite depending on the facts)

@Cerberus hyperocrisy. you're being too consistent.

Cerberus

@Mitch Nooo it is from hypo, not from hyper!

Mitch

@Cerberus I'm messing with you.

Cerberus

1:59 AM

I know.

But for posterity.

Mitch

Anyway, the French says exactly that you made a pun or the opposite, that your idiom is actually literally true.

But all the attempted translations don't say that.

So I mistrust what I think it implies in French.

and I need somebody to set me straight. or tell me I'm right.

Anonymous

I was trying to figure out what Streptaxidae was from before. I guessed strepto- 'twisted', and -idae is obvious, but that doesn't add up to Streptaxidae

Anonymous

Mitch

Frankly, I've never heard hyperonymy before in my life, but checking the results of nGrams it looks like a lot of people use it. I learned hypernym from "Lexical Semantics" by D. Cruse.

Cerberus

@Mitch I think you are right.

@snailboat Axi- is something like "value, estimate, opinion".

Axiom.

Anonymous

2:03 AM

Oh! I know that word!

Anonymous

I was thinking axis

Cerberus

That is Latin.

But who know, perhaps it is a hybrid word.

Anonymous

I don't know where to look it up.

Mitch

All the English translations were extra boring. like "I must say" or "it has to be said", and it would be more interesting to say the literal translation like "That sure is the time to say it"

So basically I think people are stupid.

Anonymous

@Mitch Are you sure those translations are right?

Mitch

2:05 AM

@snailboat no. but googling for "C'est le case de le dire" anglais finds just that.

Cerberus

@Mitch I saw a quotation like "the Reformist party is, c'est le cas de le dire, busy reforming this law".

And other examples.

So I think you are right.

Mitch

dict.leo makes sense "Das kann man wohl sagen" or "im wahrsten Sinne des Wortes". That captures the true sense. Why are those English translations so dumb?

but I would never say that in English. too... um French. (c'est le case de le dire)

!!rimshot

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Okay. You want esthetics? I don't like the fact that *_hyperonym_ is stressed on the second syllable. I find that that pronunciation doesn't fit well with English. Also the standard pronunciation of hyperbola and hyperbole are also annoying, but alas, I am stuck with those.

Because of consensus.

Anonymous

Aw, I like hyperbole and hyperbola!

Mitch

Whoa dude, you want 'hy-per 'bo-la?

Anonymous

2:11 AM

Hyperbaton!

Mitch

Hyperbaton down the hatches!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch yes.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 At least you have let go of the "what the masses say is my only consideration".

> Bumblebee
Arthropoda
Insecta
Hymenoptera
Axidae
Bombys
sp.

Mitch

like a really really fancy bola to throw at ostriches' legs?

Cerberus

@snailboat I have found axidae.

Anonymous

2:13 AM

@Cerberus Oh! excited

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It is my first consideration.

And still by far the primary one.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 but what if everybody is worng!

Cerberus

But axidae Brookes appear to be deer.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch Everybody can't be wrong. That's not how language works.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Still, an improvement.

Anonymous

2:14 AM

@Cerberus I generally try to spell and say things like other people. Like Mr.ShinyandNew安宇, my first consideration is communicating with people, and I don't usually like to draw attention to words by pronouncing or spelling them in a nonstandard manner. I think that has a tendency to distract from what I'm actually trying to say

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But you are right that you are still struggling with the rather arbitrary rule that you may only consider what "native speakers" say.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I think you are overestimating the importance I place on the esthetics of the pronunciation. FAR overestimating it.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You were supposed to say "C'est le cas de le dire"

Anonymous

I don't think that's my only consideration

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

For example, I still say "hyPERbole" even though I despise it.

Cerberus

2:15 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't think so.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I try not to say it. I just point, as close as I can to the line.

Anonymous

I have a tendency to pronounce loanwords as they are in their source language if I happen to be familiar with the source pronunciation

Cerberus

@snailboat But language is not only a tool for communication, but also an artistic expression.

Anonymous

I have a hard time convincing my tongue to do otherwise

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus First of all, I never said I only consider what native speakers say. I don't know where you got that idea. I will consider what non-native speakers say. However, I don't see why I shouldn't give native speakers more weight.

@Cerberus Language is sometimes a tool for artistic expression.

Cerberus

2:17 AM

> Marcusiaxius lemoscastroi, g. n., sp. n., nova ocorrencia da familia Axidae (Crustacea, Decapoda, Thalassinidea) no Brasil

Anonymous

I know a Sakura in the U.S. who pronounces her name as it would be in American English rather than in Japanese, and it takes conscious effort on my part to remember to pronounce it the way she does

Cerberus

@snailboat Are your streptaxidae crustaceans?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You can paint your walls or paint the Mona Lisa, but that doesn't mean your walls are necessarily some kind of artistic expression.

Anonymous

@Cerberus They are snails! I posted a picture up above

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why should you give them more weight?

Mitch

2:18 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's abstract expressionism at its purist.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Only all the time that we are using it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Because they generally have a deeper understanding of how the language works.

@Cerberus Oh come on.

Anonymous

@Cerberus I tend to spell with ae even though the people around me tend not to. That is one aesthetic choice I make

Anonymous

It's not like a deeply considered choice.

Anonymous

I just happen to do it.

Cerberus

2:19 AM

@snailboat Oh, right, right. So there are axidae in many, disparate families/taxa.

Anonymous

@Cerberus Oh!

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What does an "understanding" have to do with how easy it is for people to understand you?

Anonymous

I happen to think that haemochromatosis looks nicer than hemochromatosis

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I am dead serious.

Mitch

@snailboat I've made a conscious choice to write it esthetic, because most people still write it 'aesthetic' but they don't write 'anaesthesia'.

Cerberus

2:20 AM

@snailboat There you go.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You are claiming that every utterance of a language is some kind of artistic expression?

Cerberus

@Mitch I do!

Mitch

@snailboat by any other name haelitosis would smell just as sweet.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sure.

Even painting your wall white is an artistic expression. It may not be deep, but it is one. Why white, and not black? Why even, and not batches of leftover paint? Why paint it at all?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You have the lowest possible bar for what is artistic expression.

Cerberus

2:22 AM

I am as low as they go.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 surely, you've noticed that I have set myself the artistic goal tonight of say everything such that one could say "C'est le cas de le dire" afterwards. And have it make sense.

Well, that didn't work out so well.

Or that.

But that did!

Anonymous

@Mitch Waell, I guaess I could start using ae aevaerywhaerae I normally usae e …

Mitch

@snailboat Now you sound Scots!

Cerberus

If you say "painting my wall white has absolutely nothing to do with aesthetics whatsover", I say gnôthi seauton.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus So if someone asks you "Do you want something to drink", and you reply "yes", then you are both artists.

@Cerberus gesundheit.

Mitch

2:23 AM

@Cerberus That's performance art.

Cerberus

In a way, yes, in that it involves aesthetics. You could have nodded or said "yup".

Anonymous

@Cerberus What does the circumflex indicate?

Mitch

Or not noticed at all.

Cerberus

@snailboat That is is an omega, not an omicron. So it is a long, closed o.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus esthetics != artistic expression. Come on. Tidying up your house is not a form of art, but it does look better.

Mitch

2:25 AM

@Cerberus NO U!

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 In many cases, the artistic or aesthetic aspect to it will rather be...by omission. Or even trivial. But it is there. Even so, it is absolutely non-trivially present in choices such as between *hypernym and hyperonym.

Anonymous

A very few people still use circumflex accents in romanization of Japanese to indicate vowel length

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus trivial indeed.

Anonymous

Or macrons.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, you were right when you described it as trivial.

Cerberus

2:26 AM

Then what do they use?

Anonymous

I never really understood why one or the other

Anonymous

These days, most people don't bother indicating vowel length in romanization of Japanese

Cerberus

I think circumflexes are older.

Anonymous

So you have Tokyo instead of Tôkyô

Cerberus

Oh, you mean in ordinary writing?

Anonymous

2:28 AM

Linguists have mostly switched to doubling: Tookyoo

Cerberus

I suppose perhaps it isn't necessary in ordinary Greek quotations.

Anonymous

But non-linguists hate that.

Cerberus

Isn't a well known city name with an established spelling a bad example?

Robusto

@Cerberus How about in extraordinary Greek quotations?

Cerberus

Such as?

Anonymous

2:29 AM

Okay, then, kôketu

Mitch

how about hypoordinary quotations?

Cerberus

OK.

Mitch

@snailboat again, NO U!

Cerberus

Oops, I meant long and open, by the way. Omega is long and open.

Mitch

omicron short and open?

Cerberus

2:31 AM

I think short and closed.

Not 100% sure.

Mitch

why can't they be logical like Sindarin?

Cerberus

Because elves do not exist.

Mitch

All the elves that exist are purely logical.

Cerberus

Undoubtedly.

Will Hunting

8:32 AM

Has anyone here seen the contents of "Living Language, English, Complete Edition"? I know it is for ESL students but I wonder what standard is attained at the end of it all...

Hi @MattЭллен! I went for my first psychotherapy session today, now thinking of whether to go for the second one...

Matt Эллен

good morning. did you get on with your therapist?

Will Hunting

He was OK. On the one hand, I am telling myself to continue going but on the other hand, I am telling myself to stop, lol.

But today he did not say anything I have not already known.

Matt Эллен

He's still got to get to know you

But it's up to you. There won't necessarily be any great revelations, just support and gradual change

Will Hunting

I was hoping for great revelations actually, lol.

There is a possibility that I want to stop both meds and therapy soon...

@MattЭллен Are you familiar with what I said in my first line above?

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting vacillating between going and not going? yes. Maybe for different reasons, I mean, I assume that my desire not to go stems from my anxiety

Will Hunting

8:45 AM

@MattЭллен No, I mean the book.

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting oh! no I haven't seen the book