English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

12:05 AM

Yooo.

How are my favourite roomies??

Robusto

Which are your favorites?

Cerberus

Do you want to be one of my favourites?

Robusto

blushes

Cerberus

Then stand on your head and quack like a duck.

I'm drunk on very good wine, so I will have no less.

Robusto

Ducks don't stand on their heads when they quack. Or any other time either.

Reality—it's a bitch.

Cerberus

12:15 AM

I didn't say it would be easy or predictable.

Robusto

@Cerberus What wine in particular?

user116848

hi

Cerberus

> Tarani Malbec Vin de Pays Comté Tolosan
Périgord Tarani Rood 2012

@Robusto Perhaps not the best wine in the world, but I really, really liked it.

Robusto

That's what counts.

Cerberus

Very good price–quality ratio.

I did buy a batch of wine that is normally €8 for €3,50.

And it's good. But this Tarani was even better.

Supposedly from the oldest wine region of France, 2000 years old.

€8 is about $12?

But I'm not sure those prices are equivalent.

user116848

12:32 AM

@Cerberus So the wine you drank was 2000 years old?

Cerberus

Haha no.

user116848

Great

Cerberus

But wine has been grown in that area for 2000 years.

user116848

@Cerberus No?

Cerberus

You can't really drink wine that old.

Maybe 25 years old if it's really good wine.

user116848

12:33 AM

I see. That's what I was thinking :D

Cerberus

Heh.

And white wine you should drink as soon as possible, says my aunt, the oenologist.

user116848

googles oenologist

user116848

Ah, ic

Cerberus

Oinos is "wine" in Greek.

In older Greek, it was w(o)inos, which is from the same root as Latin vinum.

user116848

Thanks for the etymology of the word!

Cerberus

12:36 AM

Germanic wine/wijn/wein is from the Latin, I believe.

I'm sure there is a word in Urdu or Hindi with the same root.

user116848

In Urdu we call it "sharab"

Cerberus

Hmm.

Isn't there some older word also?

user116848

Also a word which I think right now :-)

user116848

May be in Arabic. Because Arabic is very old.

user116848

Like thousands of years old.

user116848

12:39 AM

شراب

user116848

This is how we write it in Urdu ^

Cerberus

I know.

Huh.

Oh.

user116848

I pasted it from google translator :-)

Cerberus

I know Urdu is written in Arabic letters.

user116848

Because I don't use Urdu keyboard

user116848

12:41 AM

3 mins ago, by Arrowfar

Also a word which I think right now :-)

user116848

*can't think...

user116848

I made a typo there above :p

Robusto

@Reg: Is this video in Russian? It doesn't sound like it to me.

►

@Cerberus You can get a decent bottle of wine for about $12. But something really good costs more. I prefer the California wines to the French these days, although in my lifetime the best I've ever had was a Chateau Lafite-Rothschild 1959. The Chateau Margaux '61 was no slouch, either.

Cerberus

@Robusto Most probably Polish.

@Robusto Ah, yes, but those are among the Premier Cru...

At least the first one.

Robusto

@Cerberus Grand Cru, actually.

Both the Lafite and the Margaux are.

Cerberus

12:51 AM

Oh, no doubt.

But also Premier Cru.

Robusto

I've also had La Tour, Haut-Brion, and others. Back in my wine days.

Also Chateau St. Emilion, now that I recall.

And a very good Cheval Blanc.

But it wasn't as good as the Lafite. Still, my palate was quite young then.

I haven't had any wine that good in decades.

Cerberus

Cru (wine)

Cru is "a vineyard or group of vineyards, especially one of recognized quality". It is a French wine term which is traditionally translated as "growth", as it was originally the past participle of the verb "croitre" (to grow). As a wine term it is closely connected to terroir in the sense of an "extent of terrain having a certain physical homogeneity . . .considered from the point of view of the nature of the soil as communicating a particular character to its produce, notably to wine". It may thus be defined as: "Terroir as a place of production" or an "Ensemble of terrains considered from the...

It's complicated, their terminology.

Robusto

Hmm, looks like the Lafite isn't even Premier Cru.

Cerberus

No?

Robusto

Château Cheval Blanc

Château Cheval Blanc (French for "White Horse Castle"), is a wine producer in Saint-Émilion in the Bordeaux wine region of France. As of 2012, its wine is one of only four to receive the highest rank of Premier Grand Cru Classé (A) status in the Classification of Saint-Émilion wine, along with Château Angélus, Château Ausone, and Château Pavie. The estate's second wine is named Le Petit Cheval. == History == In 1832, Château Figeac sold 15 hectares/37 acres to M. Laussac-Fourcaud, including part of the narrow gravel ridge that runs through Figeac and neighboring vineyards and reaches Château Pétrus...

Oh, that just says in the Saint-Emilion region. Never mind.

Cerberus

12:54 AM

I was discussing those terms with my boyfriend just yesterday. He bought a Bordeaux Supérieur, which I didn't think was a grand cru.

@Robusto Like I said, very complicated! That's what the French are like...

Robusto

I just remember from reading the bottles, they said "Grand Cru" (awarded by the Appelation Controllee)

Insert your own diacriticals.

Cerberus

Awarded?

Robusto

Not sure that's the term.

Bestowed?

Recognized?

Cerberus

Maybe...

But appellation d'origine contrôlée just means it is from a recognized vineyard, right?

So it will be of decent quality.

Robusto

Ah, here we go: "Premiers Crus: Lafite Rothschild Latour Margaux Haut-Brion (Graves) Mouton Rothschild (1973)"

Cerberus

12:57 AM

But only a few vineyards are recognised as grands crus, I believe.

@Robusto I knew it!!

Robusto

So my experience has mainly been with the Bordeaux region.

Cerberus

The most famous region.

Robusto

I've had five of the six Premier Cru bordeaux.

Cerberus

Good.

I wouldn't remember.

Robusto

And I'm sure I've had Mouton-Rothschild, but not their best.

Cerberus

12:58 AM

When I Googled your Lafite Rothschild 1959, it said €1000.

Robusto

I had it in the early '70s for $50.

Which was steeeep back then.

Cerberus

Makes more sense.

Robusto

But you can imagine there's not a lot left, so the price would go up.

Cerberus

Is it even still drinkable now?

Robusto

I doubt the wine aged commensurately.

I'm pretty sure it must have been peaking back in the '70s.

Cerberus

12:59 AM

My aunt says most wines are no longer drinkable after 25 years.

And after 50+ years?

Robusto

Yeah. But the fact that you can afford €1000 for a bottle of wine makes you think it tastes better, I suppose.

Cerberus

Perhaps the very best are still drinkable? But far past their peak, as you suggest.

Robusto

Now you're making me thirsty for wine, damn you.

Cerberus

@Robusto Probably bought by Chinamen.

Yay!

Robusto

Or technology billionaires.

Cerberus

1:01 AM

I have amply quenched my thirst.

The nouveau-riche.

Robusto

I don't drink wine much these days, except with food. Scotch is more my style.

@Cerberus The riche is the part of that that matters.

Anybody can be nouveau.

Cerberus

Well, not entirely: it is the nouveau that wants to boast.

The vieux doesn't need to.

Robusto

Just once I'd like to have more money than sense.

Still, my mantra at the bar is this: "Not the cheap scotch, bartender. My body is a temple."

Cerberus

Hah.

You probably have enough money to spend €50 on a bottle of wine without regret.

Robusto

Yes. And I do when dining out, without giving it any thought. Often two or three bottles at that price, depending on how well the conversation is going.

Wine is the perfect accompaniment to food and conversation. Trust the French to know that.

Cerberus

1:06 AM

Oh, in restaurants, prices are often 10x the retail price.

Robusto

I shop for bargains in wine, but I don't keep more than 30 or 40 bottles on hand. I think wine cellars are pretentious.

Cerberus

So a bottle that is €50 in a shop will probably be €150 in a restaurant...

Robusto

And by "bargain" I mean a really good wine at a really good price.

@Cerberus Yes, very often. But a meal with friends is worth it.

Cerberus

@Robusto It's more like, you come cross a good wine somewhere, you buy a few bottles. And again someplace else. And soon you have a nice stock lying around in your cellar.

Robusto

Yes. That's it.

Cerberus

1:09 AM

@Robusto Probably. But it depends on your income, of course.

Robusto

You have to buy three bottles of any particular good vintage. Why? The first you drink right away, the second you share with your close friends, and the third you keep on hand for just the right occasion.

Cerberus

Right, right.

And boxes come in 2x3...

Robusto

@Cerberus At my age you realize that great meals with good friends are special. The experience is worth a considerable investment. What else were you going to do? Stay home and watch TV for free?

It also pays to cultivate the friendship of raconteurs.

Cerberus

Well, if the bill is going to be half your monthly budget after rent and fixed costs, you're going to have to eat old bread the rest of the month.

Buy the same bottle for €100 less and entertain your raconteurs at home!

Robusto

I've spent $1,000 on a meal for four and thought it a bargain.

Cerberus

1:14 AM

What if there's only €100 in your account?

Robusto

Then I've been bad with money, which I haven't.

Cerberus

If your income were €1000 a month, you wouldn't need to be bad with money.

But as I said, if your income allows it, do it!

Robusto

@Cerberus I haven't been that poor since I was trying to make a living playing music.

Cerberus

Good for you.

Robusto

Yet, curiously, the best wines I ever drank I had during that period.

@Cerberus Yes and no. Rescuing myself from penury involved selling out big-time.

I mean, from music into advertising? Lucifer didn't fall so far so fast.

Cerberus

1:17 AM

Fair enough.

At least Lucifer had a bright side...

Robusto

Now I labor along for a fraction of what I used to make in the ad business, but I'm much happier.

Cerberus

And it is probably still several times what you made as a musician!

Robusto

More than several. Even accounting for inflation.

Cerberus

nods

Robusto

In my best year as a musician I made what would be, in today's dollars, about $40,000.

And that was working like a slave.

Cerberus

1:20 AM

Not bad at all.

Maybe not good per hour.

Robusto

Well, consider that for that I had to practice 4-5 hours a day, teach another 4-5, and play for pay another 2-6 hours if I was lucky.

And I had to practice every frickin' day of the year. Even Christmas.

Cerberus

Right, so that is 10–16 hours a day.

Not good.

Robusto

And no security whatsoever.

Cerberus

And there was the stress.

Jinx.

Robusto

If I ever had a day where I wasn't getting paid, it made me nervous. "I'll never work again! Oh no!"

Cerberus

1:23 AM

Understandably so.

Robusto

But that's not the real reason I quit music.

Cerberus

Have you ever calculated what you made per hour, on average?

Robusto

The real reason I quit was because I loved music too much to prostitute it for money. There, I said it. My colleagues only ever wanted to play for money. It was all about making money. Very, very odd feeling, that. Like putting your lover out on the street to turn tricks.

@Cerberus The answer to that question doesn't interest me enough.

Cerberus

@Robusto Understandable.

That is the problem with all kinds of work, but especially artistic work in a very competitive field is vulnerable.

Robusto

Yes. It can break your heart.

Cerberus

1:31 AM

Competition impoverishes.

One does wonder, though, why so many young people keep galloping onto the most competitive fields.

(I was going to say streaming into, but I didn't want a mixed metaphor.)

hey

2:52 AM

has anyone heard of IRC?

Cerberus

3:53 AM

Yes.

> A school district in Colorado thinks its American history curriculum is a bit too glass-is-half-empty when it comes to America’s historical awesomeness. So, to spruce things up a bit, a proposal before the school board of the state’s second largest school district in Jefferson County wants to, you know, nip and tuck a tad—accentuate the positives.
What would that look like? The proposed curriculum would “promote patriotic material, respect for authority, and the free-market system,” the Denver Post reports. “In turn, the panel would avoid material about ‘civil disorder, social strife or d…

— slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/09/23/…

@tchrist What is Colorado doing here?

I mean, it's funny, but...

I love "respect for authority, and the free-market system".

In other news:

U.S. Federal Prison Population Drops for the First Time in Decades

> Mr. Holder attributed the drop in the number of federal prisoners to efforts to reduce long mandatory minimum sentences for nonviolent offenders. It also comes four years after the passage of the Fair Sentencing Act, which shrunk the disparity in sentences for crack and powder cocaine …

tchrist

@Cerberus Just read that this evening. NFI.

But tell me, please and pretty please, if you could and would, what it is about modal dare that unlike other other modals so resists application to the passive infinitive? It just doesn’t work, and I don’t understand why.

0

A: Passive of modal verb dare

Modals as Defective Verbs Modals are considered neither transitive nor intransitive. Modals just change the mode or mood or color of the principal verb. They are not transferring their action to an object for that object then to be used as subject in a passive construction. As verbs go, moda...

I will tell you. You will be told by me.

Cerberus

@tchrist Luckily, it is just a proposal by one board member: nothing will come of it.

tchrist

I dare tell you everything. BUT NOT You dare be told everything by me.

Cerberus

Umm.

tchrist

Something is orf.

Cerberus

4:02 AM

There is a semantic issue.

tchrist

Yeah.

I muddled around for a while and finally said you couldn’t transfer the “dare” aspect from subject to object for some reason. I couldn’t say quite why. And this bothered me.

Cerberus

I must tell you this is not the same as you must be told this by me (which sound awkward anyway), but at least the meaning is somewhat symmetric. Dare's is not symmetric.

Anonymous

> I dare not be distracted by it.

tchrist

Because I found that the other modals all, or almost all, tolerate being applied to a passive infinitive.

@snailboat It dare not distract you?

Cerberus

@snailboat Yes, if the subject fulfils the same semantic role, it works.

Anonymous

4:04 AM

@tchrist I'm just looking through corpus results for dare not be

Cerberus

But must and other verbs still kind of work even when the subject changes semantic roles.

tchrist

Yes, modals with passive infinitives are klunky at best.

Could it be because modal dare appears not to be able to function both deontically and epistemically the way the other modals can?

Or is that a red herring?

Cerberus

No, I think you are right.

When you switch thematic roles, you are often forced into a different kind of modality.

Must is more flexible in that regard than dare.

tchrist

That was another one of its quirks I stumbled in my thought-experiments.

He must be here by now => Oh, he’s probably here by now.

Cerberus

Yes.

tchrist

4:07 AM

As opposed to the obligation way.

That is the must of the future, not the must of the command.

Cerberus

By the way, I think the red herring is the auxiliaries: the same issue is in play any time you passivise something while switching thematic roles.

tchrist

What do you mean?

No fancy-dress parties for dare, I guess.

Cerberus

> I am courageous enough to tell you everything. → *You are courageous enough to be told everything.

This is the exact same issue as with dare, I think.

It just doesn't make semantic sense to switch thematic roles like that with be courageous.

Similary but conversely:

> I need to tell you everything → I need to be told everything by you.

This is not an auxiliary.

The meaning changes (depending on whether you choose the less obvious reading), but it still works with its new meaning.

tchrist

I need tell you nothing. Nothing need be told you by me. Ug.

Cerberus

So I think the auxiliary is a red herring.

tchrist

4:14 AM

I will tell you nothing. Nothing will be told you by me.

Cerberus

@tchrist If you make it to you, it kind of works.

tchrist

Yeah.

Cerberus

That is unrelated to the issue btw.

tchrist

I know.

Cerberus

OK.

tchrist

4:15 AM

I’ll throw the kid the ball. The ball will be thrown to the kid by me.

Cerberus

Yes.

Pass the mustard me please.

tchrist

And I will burn any paper I have to proof with the second of those two sentences.

Cerberus

Naturally.

tchrist

With S-V-IO-DO, you need no prepositions. But as soon as you swap S and DO, it goes all wonky.

How come these passive questions come up on ELU? I never encounter them in real life. Is there some crushing pile of ugly ESL grammar books out there with mindless “passivize this” exercises in them?

They don’t come up. I don’t think about them.

Why do people keep asking about them?

Cerberus

@tchrist Possibly.

But it is past 6 already.

tchrist

4:19 AM

If this were a Latin grammar book, then that would be understandable.

Anonymous

Yes, I think it's pretty common for learners to have to passivize stuff in classes and on tests

Cerberus

In other words, doggy bed time.

tchrist

But this is not Latin, and it is not a big deal with special inflections.

Good night.

Cerberus

@tchrist Why?

tchrist

Because Latin students need to learn the passive inflections.

Anonymous

4:20 AM

Learning to form a passive isn't a bad thing, but on ELL most of the questions about passives don't really make any sense . . .

Cerberus

Hmm.

Anonymous

Particularly forming a prepositional passive is something that most learners probably need to be taught about

tchrist

@snailboat Yeah. That’s why I don’t understand where they are coming from. They seem confusing or pointless.

Cerberus

@snailboat Except the ones about avoiding all passives in writing, those make perfect sense, of course.

Anonymous

But I think it would be more useful if people focused on when to use passives in terms of information structure

Cerberus

4:21 AM

If people avoid such passives as it is true that..., the world will be a better place.

tchrist

LangaugeLog has rollicking send-ups of nettlesome nannies decrying passives everywhere when none are to be found.

That is not a passive.

Cerberus

Language Log?

tchrist

See, no you are doing it.

Cerberus

Oh, you Americans and irony!

Anonymous

@tchrist Pullum's passive page: lel.ed.ac.uk/grammar/passives.html

tchrist

4:22 AM

Y A’es X => X is A’d by Y.

Or axed. Or something.

Cerberus

Not every passive has an active counterpart.

Neither in Latin nor in English.

tchrist

@Cerberus Is that something you read graffiti’d on a bathroom stall in a boys’ bar once? :)

Cerberus

Tsk.

tchrist

Yeah, yeah. I’m as tired as you are. It is a silly thing to say.

Cerberus

It is said that not all passives have active counterparts.

Try activising that one!

And they say is cheating.

tchrist

4:24 AM

I’ll activate it.

Cerberus

I suppose we could start saying passivate and activate.

tchrist

I’m looking for a by whom in your sentence.

Cerberus

There isn't any.

tchrist

The Spanish medio-passive is so much nicer. Se dice que ...

Cerberus

Nor could there be any, because the write probably doesn't know by whom.

Yeah, medio-passive or medium or middle is not really passive.

Latin can use passive for a "middle sense".

It is not common.

tchrist

4:27 AM

Fruits are selling well today.

Cerberus

It is fairly common for impersonal verbs, though: ventum est ad castra.

"People/someone arrived at the camp/fort."

tchrist

Impersonal verbs, or verbs of motion used impersonally?

Cerberus

Not sure about the terminology: perhaps neither term is current.

tchrist

Speaking of I dunno, taters, "Se cuecen muy bien" is a bit of a medio-passive, in that they cook well.

It is not normally reflexive.

But by using "se" and making plural concord with your taters, they’re kinda just cooking along on their own.

Se venden muy bien las mandarinas.

Oh, and those are virtually always VS.

Cerberus

@tchrist Why "a bit of"?

tchrist

4:31 AM

Or at least, much more often.

Cerberus

But it's bed time, bai!

tchrist

If you thought it was normally reflexive, you would have misread it as a nonpassive.

But it isn’t.

Good night.

Se habla español aquí translates into Spanish (is) spoken here.

The subject comes after the verb with these things. Another oddity that I have long ago internalized and have no explanation for.

You don’t need participles or prepositions or gunk. That’s why it is nice to be able to use.

Will Hunting

10:06 AM

This chat is dead. @MattЭллен Boo!

Matt Эллен

Hi, Jasper :)

Anonymous

@WillHunting Long live zombie chat!

Will Hunting

My language books just shipped from amazon, should be here in 3 weeks.

Anonymous

Hooray!

Anonymous

I love books about language.

Anonymous

10:07 AM

I ordered a new one that should get here any day now

hey

Internet Relay Chat

Internet Relay Chat (IRC) is an application layer protocol that facilitates transfer of messages in the form of text. The chat process works on a client/server model of networking. IRC clients are computer programs that a user can install on their system. These clients are able to communicate with chat servers to transfer messages to other clients. It is mainly designed for group communication in discussion forums, called channels, but also allows one-to-one communication via private message as well as chat and data transfer, including file sharing. Client software is available for every major...

Anonymous

@hey The answer is yes, people have heard of IRC

Will Hunting

Yes, what about IRC?

Anonymous

Stack Exchange chat is supposed to be a sort of web-based alternative to IRC with a couple extra features

Will Hunting

I have almost never used IRC.

Matt Эллен

10:09 AM

I'm in three irc channels right now

who said I couldn't be in more than one place at once?

hey

I hope I will soon start using IRC.

Anonymous

@hey I am pretty sure you can make this dream a reality :-D

hey

:p

Matt Эллен

irssi is a good client for terminal users

Anonymous

@WillHunting I ordered Iwasaki's Japanese: Revised Edition last week

Anonymous

10:11 AM

I'm excited! :-)

Anonymous

I haven't been buying as many books about language lately. The last one I got before that was Martin's Reference Grammar of Japanese

Will Hunting

@snailboat So your Japanese is pretty advanced now?

Anonymous

@WillHunting Oh, well, I'm learning! :-)

Anonymous

I'm a bit of a slow learner, you see

Anonymous

But it's been 17 years, so I've managed to learn at least a little stuff :-)

Will Hunting

10:13 AM

By the way, only you and Damkerng seem to talk in the ELL chat.

Anonymous

Haha.

Will Hunting

You should come here and hang out instead.

Matt Эллен

hang out in both!

Anonymous

I'm here sometimes!

Anonymous

I learn stuff hanging out on the language sites.

Matt Эллен

10:14 AM

it's important for the ell chat to have active members

Will Hunting

It's important for ELU and ELL to merge.

Anyway, Thursagen doesn't seem to have returned.

hey

Matt Эллен

apparently not

hey

Snail car

Anonymous

@hey Hee

Matt Эллен

10:15 AM

not yet, anyway

Anonymous

♫〜　snail boat, snail train, snail car, snail plane　〜♫

Anonymous

Vehicular polymorphism to the rescue!

Anonymous

10:33 AM

@WillHunting Hey, there are SE sites for all the languages you're learning (or have decided to learn), aren't there?

Anonymous

There are a few proposals for languages with fewer learners that have had trouble getting off the ground

Anonymous

The Korean proposal was recently restarted:

Anonymous

53

Korean Language and Usage

Proposed Q&A site for enthusiasts and experts of Korean Language, expats,and anyone interested in learning about Korean language, grammar and culture. 한국어와 이용 한국 열혈팬, 한국어 전문가 한국어 또는 한국어 문법, 한국 문화를 배우고 싶어 하는 누구나를 위하여 Q&A site에 제안되었습니다. 좋아하는 질문들에 upvote 해 주시기 바랍니다.

Currently in definition.

Anonymous

10:59 AM

@Mari-LouA Could you delete or edit and repost this comment reflecting the fact I'm a bloke please ! — Araucaria 1 hour ago

Anonymous

Oh, whoops! I just assumed because of the ending that Araucaria was a feminine name

Robusto

@snailboat I never assume anybody on the web to be anything, one way or another.

Anonymous

@Robusto I don't usually, although sometimes I make assumptions without realizing

Robusto

For example, I don't presume that you are a snail or a boat, but I don't rule those possibilities out.

Matt Эллен

I assume everyone on the internet is just a clever AI, working for a global conglomerate trying to trick me into giving away personal information.

Anonymous

11:03 AM

@Robusto sails

Robusto

@MattЭллен Speaking of that, give me your password and I'll help you avoid these problems in the future.

Andrew Leach

@MattЭллен Nearly right, but I'm not artificial.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto oh! sounds like a good deal.

@AndrewLeach oh! right, just like an AI to say that

Robusto

Once you pass your Turing test, sky's the limit.

Matt Эллен

that's why they put a net there

Robusto

11:07 AM

What, the Internet keeps us from floating away?

Anonymous

floats

Andrew Leach

Are you not tethered to it?

Matt Эллен

It wouldn't want its source of nutrition floating away into space

Robusto

I suppose not.

Anonymous

@Marilou Yes, I know, I know! :) The original Araucaria was a famous cryptic crossword setter from the Guardian with a cult following. He wrote amazing crosswords for almost 50 years. His puzzles were extremely witty and sometimes a bit political (leftish). Araucaria is a pun because it's the Latin name for Monkey Puzzle Tree. For me, that's what Linguistics is, a puzzle about a certain group of primates. I'm hoping to use that as my official academic pseudonym ;). Here's a link about the original Auracaria: John Graham/Araucaria — Araucaria 14 mins ago

Anonymous

11:14 AM

Pretty neat.

Matt Эллен

interesting indeed

Robusto

11:41 AM

@AndrewLeach I'm a grammar bolshevik. There's a difference.

Matt Эллен

11:53 AM

@AndrewLeach not available in the UK (of all places!)

Andrew Leach