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12:05 AM
@Cerberus No, I don't. I am not a mod. Trusted users such as myself only have 1/5 of a vote to close a question, and even then that counts only when the closevotes come within a short time of one another.
 
is it fair to call someone posteminent because they're dead, but were eminent when they were alive?
 
@Cerberus I just don't get it. Why would you worry that ESL questions would be closed out of hand, when ELL was proposed specifically to help the people asking such questions?
 
@MετάEd *vote to close
D'uh.
 
@MattЭллен In the case of an eminent writer of music, the proper term is decomposer.
 
and a writer of limericks?
 
12:07 AM
@MετάEd Because of what you said.
 
oh! decomposer! :D sorry, I'm slow
 
@Cerberus I might closevote more questions than you do. But I suspect that's because you closevote far fewer questions than most people with the same rep as you.
You are very much an advocate for people who ask basic questions, so it's understandable.
 
Meanwhile, I'm looking for a way to terminate a Greasemonkey script when a certain condition is met ("=vid" in the Google URL). @MattЭллен, do you happen to know this?
 
@Cerberus is it in a loop?
 
@MετάEd Yes, so that's why I am worried about the new sites. I people continue to close questions on ELL as here, it won't work for me.
 
12:10 AM
@Cerberus I also vote to reopen.
 
@Cerberus I doubt they will, at least the people who committed to the site won't, because this is why the site exists
 
Yes, I just don't understand the worry.
 
so we have a place for the ESL questions
 
Possibly Cerberus is just by nature a worrier.
 
@MattЭллен I just want the script to test "is x in the URL?" at the beginning of the script; if yes, terminate the script immediately, without carrying out what comes below. You think this is possible?
The problem is that the @include and @exclude rules don't work properly. What I want is to have a certain (long, existing) script applied to normal Google Search pages, but not when I'm searching for a video, because then it malfunctions. The script I am trying to modify is GoogleMonkeyR, which is otherwise really great.
@MετάEd Still doesn't work for me.
 
12:12 AM
@Cerberus yes. if(x is in the URL) return; should do it
 
@MετάEd No, all the negativity drains my energy. I hoped ELL would be mostly free of that, except for questions that really were the opposite of fun to answer for the normal teacher crowd. Most like answering simple questions if they help people.
@MattЭллен Ohh that sounds good. Lemme test.
 
@Cerberus I expect a lot of simple questions will get answered at ELL. Simple questions are on topic at EL&U too. There has never been a restriction against simple questions.
 
@MattЭллен Hmm your line is no doubt correct, but I think Google only reloads part of the page when you click "Video" at the search results, so the URL isn't checked, alas!
@MετάEd I disagree, but let's not talk about this now. It is going to be a problem and it will be dealt with on the new Meta, probably.
 
@Cerberus And it's okay if my approach doesn't work for you. The nice thing about a democratic process is that everybody gets a vote, and things ultimately work by consensus. The process needs people with radically different views, like yours and mine.
Or at least yours and mine about some types of question at EL&U. We probably will not be so far apart on ELL.
 
@Cerberus ah well. It's hard to tell. I've not tried to exit a script before. you could always wrap the whole script in the conditional and reverse it: if(x is in the url){do my script}
 
12:21 AM
@MετάEd Uhh democracy is not at all consensus. The is the will of the majority.
And ELL will not even be democratic in this respect, but rather more anarchic, because every person can vote as he pleases.
 
@Cerberus I think you are overthinking what I said. I am just pointing out that it takes more than one person to do most things. Several people need to have reached consensus, for example, to close a question.
 
@MattЭллен Hmm I could try that too, but I don't think that's it.
 
@Cerberus Isn't it lovely that every person can vote as he pleases.
 
@MετάEd That is not what consensus means. There is no "keep open" vote; only 5 people are needed, irrespective of the size of the site; and, even if these facts were not the case, it would still merely be a democratic vote, not consensus at all.
 
@Cerberus Not true. If a closevote results in a question being closed, it is equally easy for other people to reopen, effectively keeping the question open.
 
12:25 AM
@Cerberus Democracy means everyone votes as he pleases. You’re probably thinking of those partisan dictatorships that like to use “democracy” in their names.
 
@MετάEd In general, yes.
 
But I have already explained my words, and it is not helpful for you to tell me what "consensus" should mean. The word can mean many things and I have explained already what I mean.
 
If somebody gets to tell you how to vote, it is not a democracy.
 
@MετάEd 1. That is nothing at all like consensus; 2. that is not true, because getting people to reopen a question is much harder than the converse, since a new question has far greater visibility, and in the first stage it cannot be reopened or voted on to stay open.
@tchrist This is a serious discussion. No need for witticisms.
 
Party-line votes are not possible in a democracy. Let’s not be introducing such things here.
 
12:28 AM
@tchrist Do you run down the reopen queue?
 
@MετάEd Of course.
You can see it in my stats.
I am the top reviewer of all time.
Next.
 
@Cerberus I think you underestimate the ability to get a question reopened. I actually review the reopen queue, as do others, and consider questions that have been nominated for reopening. In fact I cast a reopen vote not ten minutes ago.
 
Most people won't.
 
@Cerberus The real problem that keeps many a question from being reopened is that the OP never bothers to fix the problem that got it closed in the first place.
 
12:30 AM
@Cerberus So? Apparently the two people you most worry about as far as closevoting, do. Many of us take the role of trusted user seriously.
 
@MετάEd That nearly guarantees a "don’t reopen’" vote from me.
 
@MετάEd That problem exists, absolutely (although it is not related to the problem of democracy...).
 
however the problem with closing is that new visitors think that means deleted
 
@Cerberus That is the problem.
 
@MετάEd I think people who like to perform meta-tasks on the site happen to also be the people who like to close questions.
@MετάEd That is not the thing I have a problem with. If a question is unworthy of staying open from my perspective, then it should indeed remain closed if the OP won't improve it.
 
12:36 AM
baii
 
@Cerberus "Like" to close questions? I don't "like" to close questions. I "like" to help curate the site. I personally would "like" it if all questions came on topic with adequate context and prior research.
@MattЭллен Bye.
 
-2
Q: Is my sentence grammatically correct?

Steven ZahuranecI am writing an artist critique and I am unsure whether or not this sentence is grammatically correct. The scene consists of a city full of large tenements in the foreground, roads that lead through the city, scenic hills in the background, and a sky with a crescent moon and many stars.

How is that question any different from the myriad others that ask whether something is grammatically correct?
Answer: it is not, and all should be closed until they can be repaired.
 
@MετάEd "Are motivated to close questions", then.
 
@Cerberus "Care."
 
That doesn't fit the context.
 
12:42 AM
@tchrist Well, that's a request for writing advice. It's not a grammar question, per se.
 
> What kind of questions can I ask here? The English Language and Usage Stack Exchange is for linguists, etymologists, and (serious) English language enthusiasts.
 
@tchrist That is not about a specific word/expression/construction, but general proofreading. I am not against closing proofreading.
 
Case dismissed.
 
@Cerberus Until you understand why "care" fits the context, you will never understand what I do.
 
That is exactly my point.
 
12:45 AM
Wow, we have a serial delete voter.
Three of Mitch’s answers got a delete vote very close together.
I guess he pissed somebody off.
Four.
Five.
I wonder whether I should flag.
 
How odd.
 
That doesn’t seem right to me.
 
Wait, answers with deletevotes?
 
Are they at all delete-worthy?
 
No, they aren’t.
 
12:47 AM
Then flag.
 
@MετάEd Yes.
 
Since there is no anti-delete vote...
 
How do you even cast an answer deletevote? Is that something that takes more rep than I have?
 
I bumped them all back up to 0 from -1. That will slow it down.
 
Or can some counterweight be provided through the review queue?
 
12:47 AM
@MετάEd Yes.
0
A: Is there an intermediate level between junior and senior?

MitchThere is no word or phrase in English that indicates a level in between 'senior' and 'junior'. It's like saying what is between 1st and 2nd. However, one can manage this by artificially creating intermediate grades between the two, say, Junior Analyst I and Junior Analyst II.

-1
A: Usage of and equivalents of Sir

MitchIn AmE, the use of 'Sir' (or 'Ma'am') in speech is deprecated, even in formal situations. Though a fifty year old 'Amy Vanderbilt' (etiquette guide) might still be followed for addressing mail, it is just not used in speech. Except in Southern English where it is usually used for someone older o...

Six.
0
A: Does 'fall in with' always have a negative connotation?

MitchYes, 'fall in with' is always negative but not strongly so. Any use of it in a nom-negative setting (like your "knitting" example) is for humorous or ironic effect.

0
A: Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon: Is there a name for this kind of punny transference?

MitchThe term for this concept is: snowclone It refers to any kind of syntactic pattern where one can produce new variations by substituting new parts. For example, X is the new Y Which means that Y is the traditional way of doing something but has been superseded by X, as n "Purple is the new...

0
A: What is it called phonetically, when Americans change the pronunciation of "pronunciation" to "pro-*noun*-ciation"?

MitchThere may be general population phonetic reasons (vowel shifting) cultural reasons (just people around you say it that way) a folk etymology may be influencing you, that is, knowing that the longer word 'pronunciation' is possibly a derivative of 'pronounce', you (and your surroundings) also p...

0
A: Use of determiners as adjectives

MitchDeterminers occur mostly in the same poaitions syntactically as adjectives do, and have a modifying function of nouns like adjectives. Determiners don't act exactly like other adjectives but they act enough like them to be classified usefully there. For example the answer to the question 'which ...

Yes what I mean?
@Cerb If you want to see the delete votes, you have to downvote-and-renege, but trust me, they are there.
Seven:
0
A: Word for more than several, but less than many

MitchAll these terms are vague; there is no precise number to them, so there is no accurate comparison. However measure words sometimes have somewhat predictable comparisons. 'several' is definitely more than 'a few', and 'many' is less than 'most'. But between 'several' and 'many'? Those are fairl...

 
@tchrist By the I don't understand. What does down-voting have to do with this? And how come I don't see the option to delete?
 
Unless you are in the review queue, it has to be at -1 to delete or to see the delete votes.
 
Oh, it needs a negative score first, right.
I don't see it in the queue either.
 
Do this: Downvote one. Reload. Count votes. Renege on downvote.
I know.
That is why I pasted them here.
I stupidly upvoted them.
 
I have 0 questions under "Low Quality" under Review.
 
12:55 AM
A 20k "trusted user" can cast a deletevote on an answer that already has -1 ordinary votes.
So presumably his answers had attracted downvotes.
 
@MετάEd I doubt it.
 
I saw the delete vote, yes.
 
They were seven in a row, without no other delete votes cast in the meantime. That is very suspicious.
 
@tchrist I would think that is enforced by the code. No -1 answer score, no deletevote.
 
All +1/-1 up/down.
 
12:56 AM
SIGHS
I did the +1, except for the first one, where mine was the -1.
If I am the serial delete voter, than I am well and truly mad, because it was not I.
 
So the troll just voted -1 and Delete on all questions by Mitch that were at 0.
 
Yes, I think so.
Could @Mitch really make anybody that pissed with him though? Seems odd.
 
@tchrist No need to flag; I'm going to look into this right now.
 
@waiwai933 Thanks.
 
@tchrist I am occasionally pissed at him, but only ever very, very slightly so.
 
12:59 AM
@MετάEd I love how stars suddenly appear on your chat postings that are hours and hours old. Somebody out there has a lot of catching up to do. My bet is that it is sim, but don’t tell her I told you so.
@Cerberus Yes, exactly. It is very slight. I cannot imagine going and trying to zap him for it.
 
And a 20k-user, no less.
 
Which really sucks.
As I said, if it turns out to be me, then I need formal commitment. I know I am hot tempered with overwork, but I have no memory of such a rampage.
 
Or, wait, can people vote to delete at 10k, but only on older questions?
 
Out of curiosity, how did you notice this? I want to check if the user's voted to delete any other posts.
 
No.
 
1:00 AM
I'm upvoting some of @Mitch's answers; but the one about "Sir"/"Ma'am" directly contradicts my specific expertise.
 
Then who could it be?
 
@waiwai933 I was reviewing the "recently delete-voted" queue.
In order.
And saw the pattern.
 
I think I am above all suspicion, what with my non-closyness.
 
I don’t know, but there are so few of us that I bet we could even figure it out ourselves.
 
Thanks; I had forgotten about the 10k mod tools
 
1:01 AM
@Micth! You would never suspect me, would you?
 
It cannot be a mod, because their votes are binding. That leaves maybe a dozen others.
Just find a 20k user who had a spat with Mitch in the right time frame.
 
Are you sure 10k-ers can't vote to delete older questions?
I seem to remember something like that.
 
@Cerberus They can’t vote to delete answers until 20k.
 
Are you sure?
 
They can vote to delete older closed questions.
 
1:03 AM
Because I seem to remember being able to delete more/other questions once I reached 20k.
 
@Cerberus Only those automatically identified as "low quality posts".
 
@MετάEd And how are they qualified as such?
 
If a post is identified as "low quality" by the software, then I am asked if it should be deleted.
 
10k can delete closed questions after 3 days.
 
Ah! I knew it.
 
1:04 AM
20k can delete all closed questions and answers that have a negative score.
 
@Cerberus That has never been made clear, for obvious reasons. If they disclose the algorithm, people will game it.
 
What have I learned from this? Never stop questioning Tchrist!
2
 
@waiwai933 Or from the review queue, at 0.
 
whereby "delete" I mean "vote to delete"
 
Oh, wait, only questions for 10k, not answers?
 
1:04 AM
@tchrist I believe deleting from there casts an implicit downvote, thus putting the answer at -1.
 
Are you sure?
 
Yes.
@waiwai933 Actually, it does not. I figured this all out some time ago, and found the MSO post confirming it. I can tell you how to prove it to yourself, too.
 
@Cerberus Yes. I'm a 10K; I have a "delete" option on closed questions, but I don't have a "delete" option on answers.
 
@tchrist But only questions? Or answers too?
 
@tchrist Well, that doesn't work for me. I can delete anything, without casting a vote.
 
1:05 AM
@MετάEd Not even on old -1 answers?
 
@waiwai933 Are you 10k anywhere else?
 
I'm 20k on MSO
 
@waiwai933 OMG you're so cool!
 
@Cerberus I can only say not that I've ever noticed.
 
Oh. God.
 
1:07 AM
@TRiG Yes?
 
@waiwai933 Good. The way you can tell is that it is stippled out from the delete queues 10k tools, and is an answer so does not read closed. Go there to see why it is marked with a delete vote but stippled as undeleteable. You will find it is at score=0. Check the vote tally: 0. Downvote, reload. See 1 or 2 delete votes. Renege. QED.
 
I was visiting an erotic fiction website (no pictures, just fiction), and I got an ad for "Justin Bieber cock exposed". I did not need that image in my head.
 
I first noticed this on SO, where there are a lot of those.
But it happens here, too.
There is an MSO post confirming all this. I will never find it there because my SE-search-fu is wanting, but I reposted its link here in our chatlog, I think for @sim or maybe @reg, when I was trying to figure it all out.
 
@TRiG JB not being a picture either?
 
@TRiG They always do those mockups, to sucker in voyeurs.
 
1:09 AM
Time for Adblock...
By the way, is Bieber even 16?
 
@Cerberus The ads are pictures yes. The only ones on the site.
 
@TRiG Just try it for River Phoenix, and you’ll see what I mean. :)
 
@TRiG Eek!
 
@Cerberus He might not be quite yet, but it seems almost inevitable now.
 
@tchrist I wouldn't even recognise River Phoenix, but I love his name. It's wonderful.
 
1:11 AM
@TRiG My Own Private Idaho.
 
@Cerberus I have no idea what age Bieber is. And I don't feel like googling it.
@tchrist I probably should watch films now and again.
 
If not, then the legality of that ad depends on the country in which the website/server is located...
 
@TRiG Yes: just imagine the spamvertising Google will throw at your if that gets in your history.
 
@TRiG Exactly my thinking, so I didn't Google it either, hehe.
 
@Cerberus No, it is surely fake.
Oh wait, you are right, aren’t you?
 
1:12 AM
But fake is illegal in some countries, I believe.
 
You cannot even simulate it on kids.
I had forgotten that.
 
In some countries.
 
@tchrist Even if it's fake (which it almost certainly is) it may be illegal to advertise.
 
Ireland or something.
This came up with Game of Thrones.
 
It is probably legal here, but not so in America.
 
1:12 AM
They had to bump the kids up from 14 to 17 because of that.
@Cerberus No, the reverse.
It was a European restriction. Dunno what country.
 
@tchrist That is outrageous, censoring fiction.
 
@Cerberus They haven’t rewritten the books. Yet.
 
@tchrist It is not illegal here, I think.
 
Ireland? Germany? I don’t know.
 
1:13 AM
Superstition is based on overrating the importance of symbols and their connection to reality.
 
Can you imagine a movie about Daniel Boone?
 
I almost want to click the ad, just to see what on earth it actually is.
 
He was married with two children by the time he was 14.
The stork brought those ones.
 
Alternatively, on applying patterns that apply to a certain domain to another domain where they do not apply.
 
But I have to confess, I am not in favor of feeding the crazies.
 
1:15 AM
@TRiG Huh so he's 18?
counts fingers
 
@Cerberus In which case it would be perfectly legal if true, but is still almost certainly not true.
 
Oh duh, I know how to find it. So lamebrained am I!
 
@TRiG Legal in some countries, but porn is probably illegal in most countries. Or at least many.
Like most of Asia...
 
@Cerberus That's a thought. Of course, nudity is not necessarily pornographic.
 
@waiwai933 Found it:
8
A: How can an answer without down-votes be voted to be deleted?

Shog9In the new Low Quality review queue (and only from the new LQ review queue), it's possible for members with at least 20K reputation to vote to delete answers with a score equal or less than 0. The assumption here is that posts in the LQ queue are more likely to be worth deleting out of hand, ra...

 
1:17 AM
@TRiG They know it when they see it.
And those poor censors must see it all day.
 
That doesn’t quite say it counts as an implicit downvote, I grant you, but it explains the mechanism. The proof of the pudding remains, as always, in the eating thereof.
 
@Cerberus Well, the Irish book censors (back in the day) are on record as having said they didn't read all the books they banned.
 
@TRiG Haha, great.
The best aspect of censorship is arbitrariness.
 
@Cerberus They couldn't. If they had to take the time to read the things, they could never have censored that many books.
 
Like all the Youtube videos that are taken down even though they are totally within the law.
@TRiG Yup. Same applies to all the Internet copyright take-downs, and even to patent lawsuits: the jury admitted they didn't look at prior art extensively in the Apple-Samsung case, despite being instructed to do so.
 
1:23 AM
Hey!
 
Hello.
 
@Cerberus Complicated.
 
They added the revision button to the Reopen queue!
Saves on clicking to the link.
 
@TRiG But the same problematic aspect of censorship applies.
 
@tchrist Nice.
 
1:24 AM
@Cerberus All copyright takedown requests are honored without question, right?
 
@Cerberus Yes. You can see the reasons why YouTube (etc.) wouldn't take the time to fight claims of copyright infringement, but it's still problematic.
 
@tchrist Only if the party receiving the notice decides to do so, at least in your country. They can ignore or challenge the notice.
In practice, yes, it is often honoured without question.
 
@Cerberus Really? Doesn’t work that way in the UK, I know.
Hm, wait.
We are talking about different things. Sorry.
 
Because looking through all the notices and properly considering Fair Use takes too much time.
 
I mean if you post a video to YouTube, and Trig then tells YouTube that he is the copyright holder and wants it removed, then YouTube just does so without question.
 
1:27 AM
People sending out notices ought to be penalised for sending in incorrect notices. A fine, or at least being barred from sending any more notices for a certain period of time.
 
@tchrist Usually, anyway.
 
@TRiG Yes, very.
@tchrist Well, not exactly. You can file a counter-notice.
 
I am sure there are certain restrictions.
 
@Cerberus Still, a takedown notice is better than jumping immediately into a lawsuit.
 
And the other party needs to respond to the counter-notice by either retracting or affirming its claim.
 
1:29 AM
Like, if the BBC posts a clip from some upcoming thingy of theirs on something that looks like their official channel , then the YouTube censors are probably not going to pay too much attention to TriG’s takedown request about it. :)
 
@TRiG Yeah, although a notice is far cheaper, and can thus be done en masse, as opposed to lawsuits, except when they sue 1000 down-/uploaders at once.
 
He should never have agreed to do that clip for them in the first place. :)
 
@tchrist He can only file an automated notice if the content matches with his own (older) video, I believe.
 
@Cerberus Oh, much better then.
But shouldn’t they detect that? I guess you could hack around it.
 
Some guy's video was removed because it had some singing birds in the background.
And some big company's video also had bird sounds.
They were matched by Content ID, and the big company automatically filed a notice (probably), and wouldn't retract it, probably because they just don't care and don't want to spend time even looking at this guy's video.
The bird sounds from his video were from actual birds in his own street, I believe.
But they "matched" like 1 % of the audio, so BAM.
 
1:33 AM
I always knew the Internet was for the birds.
 
And other animals.
His video wasn't about birds btw.
They just happened to be in the background.
 
No, I mean it’s cause pervs are always chatting up birds there. :)
 
Oh, those birds.
 
It was for @TRiG’s benefit. :)
 
They do sound alike, in all probability.
Why for his?
 
1:35 AM
@tchrist Boobies!
 
Because it is not American slang.
 
Ah, isn't it?
 
@TRiG I have a boobie story one of these days.
 
@TRiG Hah. Hah.
 
 
1:36 AM
Yes and that is the one I meant.
The first O’Reilly book written by a girl for a long time was going to go to print. The person who chooses the animal covers chose some cute little chicks on the cover. Objection was raised that that was sexist. So she got the boobies instead.
 
Aug 31 '11 at 14:26, by Matt Ellen Д
user image
 
So instead of her book getting known as the Chick Book, it wound up being the Boobie Book.
@Cerberus Certainly not. I wager not 1 in a 1,000 would even recognize it, and probably far fewer than that.
 
@TRiG Well written. Totally perverted justice system.
I don't understand why they call copyright laws "important", though.
I used to think they were all right, and we don't have such excesses here; but, as for America, I think everybody would be much better off if they were simply all abolished.
 
Who named the Baby Jesus?
 
@tchrist Okay.
 
1:45 AM
1
A: Words based on the names of gods

John LawlerIn English, the verb to christen has a sense of 'to confer a name upon'. It's one of those rare non-dative bitransitive verbs. I.e, like name and elect, christen has two objects, neither of which is an indirect object: They named the baby Jesús. We elected Mary president. I hereby christen this...

That struck me as surreptitiously droll.
I don’t know if Lawler is being sneaky-funny on purpose, but I laughed.
 
I don't understand the fun.
 
It’s like dedicating a book to your parents, Mother Theresa and Gawd.
I read it in a different sense the first time.
 
I have no idea what you mean.
 
“The Baby Jesus” is something of a fixed phrase in English.
It refers to the whole manger-myth thing.
You cannot say those three words together without it evoking that image.
That, or I’m on crack.
 
@Cerberus I do think authors have some right to creative control of their works.
 
1:53 AM
@tchrist I know. I say it all the time.
@tchrist Manger?
 
@tchrist But the baby Jesús is a little different.
 
@Cerberus As in “Away in a . . .”, not as in mange-tout.
@TRiG Yeah yeah. I still smiled.
 
@TRiG A moral right, perhaps; but I am not so sure any more that the law should be involved; and in America they have gone crazy with copyright, so I think no-law is better than that.
@tchrist Oh, the trough/cradle thing. I still have no idea what the joke could be, but okay.
 
@TRiG Puede ser. Sin embargo, si fuese el niño Jesús, pues ya sería otra cosa de nuevo. :)
 
I'm trying to formulate a puzzle question about God having long stockings.
 
1:56 AM
I believe Rob Brydon is the acclaimed authority on those.
Well, him or Pippi.
Stocking is such an old-fashioned word, isn’t it? I think apart from Christmas, you only hear it when you’re told to put your shoes on instead of running around in stocking feet.
Or to take off your boots, because only stocking feet are allowed.
 
Saying the Dutch equivalent of stockings for socks used to be U when stockings were no longer worn.
I might still use it.
My grandmother certainly did.
 
So did mine.
But I just remembered something.
Lady’s stockings are panty-hose.
Men’s stockings are socks.
 
Not here.
They are just very long socks. I don't think panty-hose existed when stockings were still normal.
 
@tchrist Stockinged feet, I thought.
 

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