English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

6:00 AM

No, we were the bath. Or I should say "you", now that I have climbed out of the bath.

@Cerberus I still don't understand the necessity of a separate site for beginners. The same purpose could be achieved with a "beginner" tag assigned to the beginner questions. That's it!

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Thanks.

David Wallace

@Cerberus for?

Cerberus

@Meysam First, I agree. The only reason for ELL is that many people here really don't want learner's questions here, sadly. Secondly, learner's questions need not be beginner's questions! Learner's questions can be extremely advanced, and they can be interesting.

@DavidWallace For calling me specifically the bath.

There is also the aesthetic quality of language to consider. Everyone benefits from using beautiful language instead of ugly language. As to stopping the tide, significant and fairly-long-lasting results can be achieved. Consider for example how some of Cicero's prescriptive rules were respected during most of the Empire, and picked up again in the Renaissance! Consider also that interest in prescriptive rules in other languages has become stronger and stronger since ca. 1800, and we still stick to certain rules first propagated a century or two ago. All is not hopeless. — Cerberus 2 mins ago

Meysam

What was that sleigh? I suppose this festive feature should be gone by now. Is it a bug that it's still there? Or is it still xmas?

David Wallace

6:11 AM

It was a plural you. Not you specifically.

Cerberus

I don't know why it is still here.

simchona

@Meysam "Beginner" would be a meta tag, which aren't supposed to be used. Tags describe the content, like "word request"

Cerberus

Perhaps they have decided it represents winter, not Christmas?

@DavidWallace I know. But it sounded funny.

simchona

@Cerberus Because 99 percent of them are shitty and have no effort

David Wallace

Then can I have it in June, July and August please?

Cerberus

6:12 AM

@simchona I don't know, I don't feel that way.

@DavidWallace Look.

David Wallace

Still, if I can have a special Chanukah hat for Islam, I suppose I can have a winter sleigh in the middle of summer.

Cerberus

See how impractical this upside-downness of yours is? Why don't you just rotate and be done with it?

@DavidWallace Yay! Is there also a nice Ramadan hat for Christianity?

David Wallace

If everyone were on the same side of the world, it would tip over.

@Cerberus It's probably a Ramadan ham.

Cerberus

What if we put the ants on the other side? I believe all ants taken together weigh a lot more than all humans.

@DavidWallace A ham, verily?

I must disapprove.

David Wallace

I should have complained to TPTB, rather than whinging about it here occasionally.

Meysam

6:15 AM

@Cerberus I don't get it. Who is a learner? The only thing I know is that a question (any question, even advanced questions as you put it) is asked by a learner. How is it possible that someone who is not a learner asks a question? Tell me. how is it? If that's the case, 92% of questions should be moved to ELL then.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Complained about what? About your side of the world?

David Wallace

@Meysam My point exactly, but you have expressed it far more clearly.

@Cerberus about being given a special Jewish hat for a posting on Islam.SE.

simchona

@DavidWallace That's supposedly bad?

David Wallace

It's the only hat I earnt :-(

Cerberus

@Meysam A learner is someone who is said to be in the process of learning English. Now you could say everyone is always learning, but the idea is that native speakers have already learned their language. Or something.

simchona

6:17 AM

@Cerberus The idea is that explaining subject-verb agreement over and over is a waste of time

Cerberus

@DavidWallace What's wrong with that?

@simchona Then duplicates can be pointed out.

We don't need ELL for that, nor will we use it for that, probably, unless duplicate policy changes...

simchona

Many of our "gen ref" would likely go there

David Wallace

@Cerberus Am I the only person in the room who finds it offensive?

Meysam

@Cerberus That's it!

Cerberus

@simchona Yes, but those are not the same question repeated.

simchona

6:18 AM

@Cerberus They're mostly crap. We close crap. We would like some place to be nice to crap.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace How can a hat be offensive? I truly don't understand it.

@Meysam Is it, hmm?

@simchona Tsk, you are not espousing the philosophy of ELL very eloquently.

simchona

@Cerberus shrug

Cerberus

A simple question isn't crap, if that's what you mean: it is merely simple.

As to careless formatting, I would vote to close such questions on ELL.

I won't want those.

simchona

We don't do simple. It's a waste of time telling someone "just learn how to conjugate"

Cerberus

Why is it any more of a waste of time than the rest of the site?

If people don't understand certain aspects of conjugation, perhaps someone else will enjoy explaining it.

Of course the scope of ELL is still very unclear.

And how GR questions will be handled.

I mean true GR.

I say close it if it can be looked up in a dictionary or if not enough context is provided to answer it.

Meysam

6:22 AM

@Cerberus If people don't want to see learner's questions here, there is already a good facility for them on here. "ignoring a specific tag". So tag learner questions with "learners" tag or whatever, and tell people ignore this tag if it's bothering them. That way, we will end up with a site with 92% of its questions being ignored by people.

David Wallace

@Cerberus Wouldn't it have been better to remedy this BEFORE getting to 91%?

@Meysam Won't work. The learners won't know to use the tag.

simchona

@DavidWallace That's largely what private beta is for

Cerberus

@Meysam I agree, and this is what I proposed—but there are Rules that we cannot change, alas.

simchona

@Meysam Also, that's a meta tag. Highly frowned upon, like homework

David Wallace

@simchona I'm sorry. But I see carts and horses running in all directions.

user19161

6:24 AM

So is it true that ELL will accept all questions?

simchona

@DavidWallace If it fails in private beta, it fails in private beta

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Some efforts have been made to this effect. But I think it will only become clearer once we get to handle practical situations.

Meysam

@DavidWallace Likewise learners don't know whether to ask their questions on here or on ELL.

Cerberus

Look at how policies changed on ELU.

user19161

@Meysam I always believed in having only ELU, unless ELL is open to all questions literally.

user19161

6:25 AM

@Cerberus Oh, what has changed?

Cerberus

@Meysam My first choice would have been to keep everything here and allow learner's questions. But apparently people have become less and less tolerant of such questions over the years. They are whining and closing all the time. So the second-best thing seemed to me to have a separate site for those questions, in order for the whining here to stop.

@JasonBourne Consider the institution of GR.

The third alternative was to simply disallow learner's questions and close them all. Then they would have had nowhere to go.

David Wallace

I think somebody threatened to kill me, on another web site.

simchona

@DavidWallace Eh?

user19161

@Cerberus Oh, I find it weird that this site has GR and not math.

David Wallace

@JasonBourne But Math is the ELL of MO already.

user19161

6:29 AM

@DavidWallace Nope, I think Linguistics is to ELU as MO is to MSE.

user19161

How is ELU about research level questions? I doubt it.

David Wallace

No. MSE was created to keep low-level questions off MO. It's exactly like ELL is to ELU.

Cerberus

@JasonBourne I suppose...

@DavidWallace Huh? Who?

user19161

@DavidWallace Oh, you mean the purpose. Well, but not the level.

David Wallace

ELU would like to be like MO. But the learner questions get in the way.

user19161

6:31 AM

Well, no. I don't see research level questions on ELU at all, not that I would know well what they look like.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Was it merely a curse? Or did she utter specific threats?

simchona

@DavidWallace As long as she doesn't know where you live...

Cerberus

Ignore her. Block her.

David Wallace

I don't care. It's kind of funny. And she's too far away to actually hurt me.

Cerberus

Okay.

Weird.

simchona

6:32 AM

"Far away" isn't always enough. There's always the threat of travel.

David Wallace

@simchona Nah, she's not going to come all the way here just to do me in. And if she does, I'll see her coming!

Meysam

@DavidWallace Who?

David Wallace

@Meysam Don't worry, you don't know her.

I hope.

Meysam

@DavidWallace What kind of hope is that? You better hope I do (did?), so that I can possibly prevent your death.

David Wallace

No, I had better hope that you don't. Because you and I are alike in some ways. We have certain things in common. This person has met me, and wanted to kill me within a couple of weeks. If she meets you, who's to say that she won't react similarly?

Meysam

6:37 AM

Err, what was that festive feature sleigh stuff? Shouldn't them be gone already?

@DavidWallace How is it possible that she met you? (Unless you have been at the same time in the same place)

David Wallace

Oh, on a web site somewhere. I meant "met" in the online sense. I met her about two weeks ago, and already have made her angry enough to threaten to kill me.

Meysam

@DavidWallace Oh oh! that's all I can say.

Cerberus

@simchona Have you read Prudence's latest, about the child-molesting dentist?

Quite shocking.

And a very difficult situation.

simchona

@Cerberus I did. Read it earlier today.

Cerberus

OK.

If the child had truly forgotten, and were very unlikely to ever find out, I wouldn't tell him.

simchona

6:49 AM

Yet what if he remembered later, and was repressing it? That would lead to future issues that, if not spoken up about given the chance, may have never been resolved

I had an ex who repressed a molestation, and when he finally spoke up he found out his sister had too--by the same person. It was fairly freeing.

Cerberus

@simchona Perhaps.

@simchona Hmm yes. Was this a once-only molestation, or on-going? And was this anybody close to them?

simchona

@Cerberus I believe it was ongoing. It was a family member.

Cerberus

In any case, if this kid was drugged, he probably won't remember.

@simchona Yeah that's way more serious, I should think.

But if you get fondled or whatever in your sleep, and you don't remember...

Argg what did Prudie just do!?

She spoiled Downton Abbey!

She said something about it in her video.

I quickly paused and skipped it, but I couldn't unhear what I had heard.

I do hope this is about some old season or something.

Noah

7:15 AM

Hi

@Cerberus Has it ever happened to you. This thing reminds of Family Guy.

Cerberus

@Noah If it did, I wouldn't remember!

And, no, I have no memories of any such event.

David Wallace

It must have then.

QED

Cerberus

Yes, that follows.

Noah

I am dont remember the exact story, but one of the guys gets fondled when he is in some sort of coma.

Hi Dave.

Cerberus

And I wouldn't care if it had happened, because then apparently it would not have harmed me in any way.

Noah

7:18 AM

Welcome to ELU

Cerberus

@Noah Nice.

Perhaps all children should be drugged and given to a paedophile for twenty minutes every year, in order to quench their thirst.

It wouldn't take much time, and they would get paid for it.

And they wouldn't remember.

Noah

@Cerberus I would. And I would probably go kill the paeudophile.

Cerberus

How would you remember? You weren't conscious.

David Wallace

@Noah Greetings, my brother.

Noah

@Cerberus Maybe I would. I have a special talent for that.

@DavidWallace How are you? Havent seen you for quite some time. Hope things are great.

David Wallace

7:23 AM

Many things are great, yes. Thanks for asking.

Cerberus

@Noah How does it work?

Noah

@Cerberus You just have to tickle yourself. :)

That's great. @DavidWallace I am happy that you are moving ahead.

I am sure things will be much better in a couple of years.

David Wallace

Yes, well when you're on the bottom of the ocean, the only way is a mixed metaphor.

Cerberus

@Noah If it isn't already done for you.

Noah

@Cerberus Yeah.

Cerberus

7:26 AM

@DavidWallace Haha!

Noah

@DavidWallace And things seem a bit fuzzy at the beginning.

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ There may be an unprecedented flu wave going on in your country at the moment, if we are to believe GoogleFlu.

They track how many people search for flu and try to estimate the severity of the epidemic.

google.org/flutrends/intl/en_us/us/#US

@tchrist Apparently, Denver is rated as "flu activity: intense".

David Wallace

Googleflu! What will we see next? Yahoogonorrhea?

Cerberus

At least it's not same old Google Fu.

Apparently, we're in the red too.

It doesn't seem to work for NZ or Australiar.

Even Zeeland on the Dutch map is grey!

Dumb Cow

8:10 AM

Hi.

Dumb Cow

8:20 AM

Ahmad

I want to write a 2-page letter as if it were written by two random people. Is there any institution that can help me?

Noah

8:37 AM

@Ahmad is this some sort of question?

I dont understand the motive behind this. Maybe you can fill us in and see if we can help.

TemporaryNickName

9:13 AM

Hello guys, may I ask you some questions? What do they mean by "... worn out", "cut that chad / shad" (it sounded like chad or shad)

RegDwighт

9:41 AM

Impossible to tell without context. Always provide context.

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/worn-out

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shad

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chad

Matt Эллен

10:18 AM

Hello

David Wallace

Hey

Matt Эллен

Hello David. How are things?

David Wallace

Mostly good at the moment. Survived my first week back at work, just. How about you?

Matt Эллен

That's good to hear. Pretty good. We're meant to be demoing the software I've been working on to the rest of the team later on. That should be exciting.

David Wallace

Did you practise the demo?

Matt Эллен

10:21 AM

sort of. I'm not driving, it's the tester who's doing the work

but we've checked that everything works this morning

user19161

@matt Any further news from OED?

David Wallace

Are you scrumming?

Matt Эллен

no, we don't do scrum

@JasonBourne nothing so far

hopefully I'll find something waiting for me when I get home

user19161

@MattЭллен Haha, they can't be on holiday for so long!

Matt Эллен

@DavidWallace we do try to be agile

user19161

10:23 AM

Maybe they're all nuts as well.

David Wallace

Most people try to be agile.

Matt Эллен

especially at the moment where we're trying to get beta stuff to customers in the next few weeks

TemporaryNickName

Do you think it is possible for software to validate English grammar of a sentence 100% accurate?

David Wallace

No

user19161

I suddenly feel an affection for CentOS, I think I should try it again.

TemporaryNickName

10:23 AM

or near perfect?

David Wallace

No.

Matt Эллен

@TemporaryNickName it's not possible for humans

TemporaryNickName

85% perfect?

user19161

@TemporaryNickName No way. Forget about Word grammar checker. It sucks big time.

user19161

@TemporaryNickName Forget about the grammar checker. There are too many questions on this site where the grammar checker failed miserably.

TemporaryNickName

10:25 AM

how accurate do you think MS Word grammar checker is?

David Wallace

@TemporaryNickName How would you measure that percentage?

TemporaryNickName

do you mean 85%?

user19161

@TemporaryNickName Forget about it, very inaccurate. Nobody can give you a number, so forget about asking for a number.

user19161

If you are the guy working for Word grammar checker, I would ask you to forget about your job.

user19161

The grammar checker should be abandoned.

Matt Эллен

10:27 AM

@JasonBourne I see you've got a bit of a New York accent

user19161

In fact, don't trust the spelling checker either. Check a reputable dictionary.

user19161

@MattЭллен Really? Hmm... I am not sure what accent that is. Anyway, I am not of this world.

TemporaryNickName

I think it is good for students who want to correct their grammar error but cannot be with their teachers all the time

Matt Эллен

fuhgedabowtit

user19161

@TemporaryNickName It is NOT good. They will learn the wrong things, so my advice is FORGET about it.

user19161

10:29 AM

Also, the spelling checker is NOT good. Check a REAL dictionary.

David Wallace

@TemporaryNickName I disagree.

Matt ... -dit not -tit.

TemporaryNickName

why?

Matt Эллен

most spell checkers are OK. they don't know all the words and often mistake contractions for misspellings, but they are far better than grammar checkers

user19161

Why do I say so? Because I have seen too many questions on this site about the spelling and grammar errors arising from using these checkers.

user19161

So as a first step, you can use the spell checker, but not the grammar checker.

David Wallace

10:31 AM

But just using the spell checker does not guarantee that you have spelt every word correctly.

RegDwighт

The grammar checker only tells you what, not why. So a) it only gives you a fish rather than teaching you how to fish, and b) since it doesn't explain its reasoning you have no idea if its reasoning is actually correct.

user19161

As a second step, use a real dictionary and learn more grammar yourself.

Matt Эллен

yeah. If you're unsure about the verdict of a spell checker, check a dictionary

David Wallace

And often you end up with a fish when you slaughter a cow.

user19161

@RegDwighт Even the what can be wrong.

RegDwighт

10:32 AM

@JasonBourne that's what the b) part is about.

user19161

That is because there are many complicated sentences parsed wrongly.

TemporaryNickName

btw I will be back in an hour, going for an exercise

user19161

Computers are not as smart as me you know.

David Wallace

Today, I was in a supermarket. The aisle where they sold pens, pencils and exercise books was labelled "stationary". I wept.

user19161

@TemporaryNickName Walking is the best exercise for the body, says Linda Evangelista.

RegDwighт

10:33 AM

@JasonBourne Though at least they read both parts of a sentence.

TemporaryNickName

lol

user19161

@RegDwighт Yes, I usually read half of it only.

user19161

Ouvert et haut !

David Wallace

Although, it was truthful in a sense, because the aisle itself did not move.

RegDwighт

I have no idea what the aisle with pencils is usually labeled.

Matt Эллен

10:37 AM

pen aisle

David Wallace

Well, it sounds a lot like "stationary".

Matt Эллен

stationary adj. 7. Also in form stationery. Of or relating to a stationer (in various senses of stationer n.1). Now rare

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен that reminds me of Pen Island's official homepage, penisland.com.

Matt Эллен

interesting tidbit from the OED

@RegDwighт then my allusion worked!

David Wallace

@Reg - watch out, Gigili will flag you, like she did last time someone said that.

@MattЭллен No way!!!

Not rare enough, if you ask me.

What dictionary are you citing? That looks OED-ish.

Matt Эллен

10:40 AM

@DavidWallace indeed. if English weren't confusing enough

@DavidWallace yeah, I pulled it from the OED

if people lived in the aisle with pens, you might call it a pen aisle colony

Jez

11:19 AM

@DavidWallace The aisle wasn't moving anywhere, though

TemporaryNickName

11:36 AM

who is linda evangelista?

RegDwighт

A model.

Linda Evangelista

Linda Evangelista (born May 10, 1965) is a Canadian model. She has been featured on over 600 magazine covers. Evangelista is mostly known for being the longtime muse of photographer Steven Meisel, as well as coining the phrase "We don't wake up for less than $10,000 a day". She holds the record for her multiple appearances on the cover of Vogue Italia, all of which were photographed by Meisel. Early years Evangelista was born to Italian parents who emigrated to Canada and was raised in a working-class, traditional Roman Catholic family in St. Catharines, Ontario, near Niagara Falls, w...

TemporaryNickName

Walking doesn't sweat me at all

I have to run in order to sweat. I think she is wrong about that she thinks walking is the best for body

Noah

@DavidWallace How's the weather where you are?

Matt Эллен

11:59 AM

— Do you know where I'm coming from?
— I thought we discussed the policy about masturbation in the work place last week.

2

TemporaryNickName

►

that's interesting heh :/

David Wallace

@Noah It's been sunny but very windy.

tchrist

12:33 PM

15 out 50 questions closed. What’s the threshold for when Meta gets all het up?

RegDwighт

1 and above.

tchrist

Can piranhas ever count as ankle-biters?

Matt Эллен

i-think-this-place-is-so-snobby-and-mean-stop-closing-questions

tchrist

Can alligators ever count as anything but ass-biters?

@MattЭллен Peter brings up a good point here, but I am not enough of an expert on r-droppers (arguably, r-movers :) to say. I assume you are One of Them; if so, what might be your perception of the matter? Do you swap in phonemic length for a dropped r? Reminds me of how some Spanish speakers swap in phonemic aspiration (actually, an open vowel for a close one) for a dropped s in the same syllabic-final position. Hm.

While phonemic vowel lengths are clearly dead in AmE, are they really dead in BrE? It seems to me (although I'm not an expert) that in some dialects, length is the main distinction between bid and beard, between shed and shared, and between tusk and task. — Peter Shor 18 mins ago

@PeterShor I actually wondered that, and was wondering whether someone might bring it up. It seems possible that non-rhotic speakers mark r-deletion by adding length, but I am no expert on such folk, since for me, such speakers in the Am. South sound like they are actually adding a new “uh” syllable, which changes the equation. About tusk/task, I am unsure that is an actual length distinction even for those on the other side of the TRAP/BATH split. Seem like height is involved, too. — tchrist 13 mins ago

Wow, Barrie actually looked for a dupe!

RegDwighт

Not last I checked, no.

2

A: Why does "I ain't doing nothing" translate to "I am doing nothing"?

Multiple negation has long been a feature of English. It continues to be so in nonstandard dialects, but is no longer allowed in Standard English. It isn’t a case of one negative cancelling another. Rather, the greater the number of negatives, the greater the force of the negation. If you think i...

8

A: "I ain't got no money"

Multiple negation has been a feature of English for centuries and is found in the work of at least two of the language’s most revered writers. Once again, we must blame the eighteenth century grammarians for proscribing this most natural of English constructions. Such has been their influence tha...

skullpatrol

12:48 PM

We don't need no education since I can't get no satisfaction...

tchrist

This has been asked before, but I can't locate the question. Perhaps someone else can. — Barrie England 11 mins ago

Robusto

@RegDwighт Didn't Prof. Lawler give a definitive answer about negative concord somewhere? Or was that in a comment?

RegDwighт

No idea.

tchrist

Barrie’s search fu is not very good. I got it in one, and in fact, it was the only hit for my query.

RegDwighт

At this point everyone has given a definitive answer about negative concord. Three times.

Robusto

12:51 PM

I didn't answer none of them.

KitFox

Morning.

tchrist

Eventually.

skullpatrol

If I can't get no satisfaction, then we don't need no education.

and vice versa...

Robusto

A double negative is a half-assed litotes.

tchrist

No, it isn’t.

RegDwighт

12:54 PM

It's a full-assed hyperbaton.

KitFox

It isn't not a half-assed litotes.

@RegDwighт @Matt already covered masturbation, it seems.

RegDwighт

@tchrist yours asks for the name, this one asks for pronunciation.

tchrist

I get the null set when I try to interset Lawler postings with double-negation.

skullpatrol

It isn't isn't?

tchrist

@RegDwighт Drat.

skullpatrol

12:57 PM

How can it not be not true?

tchrist

Related, but not a dupe:

14

Q: How do you correctly say large numbers

I saw a post on The daily What which links to a video where a person counts from 1 to 100,000. Is he saying a large portion of the numbers wrong? Back in high school my algebra teacher was extremely picky. If we where going to say the number 135, we would say one hundred thirty five. If a per...