English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

6:00 PM

when you say "persist" the checkboxes, what do you mean by that? like, a user clicks on a link to sort the page, the page refreshes, and the values in the checkboxes are gone?

KitFox

Uh. WTF? Did you guys fix that while I was gone?

I am so confused.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Nope. I was too busy contemplating the Lego Millenium Falcons on my dining room table.

KitFox

drools

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Did I mention my wife is awesome? cuz she is

KitFox

You may have mentioned that. I may have sinned in my heart about it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:02 PM

heheh

KitFox

So it was a problem before I left, but it is not a problem now.

I don't know what happened.

Maybe I am remembering the problem wrong.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

could be

Matt Эллен

or maybe it's like the opposite of a hisenbug

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

hey Matt, did you read that they sent information about quantum entanglement back in time?

science.slashdot.org/story/12/04/24/2031211/…

Matt Эллен

Oh! yes, I did read that :D

when did I read that?

It must have been new scientist

KitFox

6:10 PM

I can't even fathom that.

I'm trying to figure out if the server is really slow today, or if I screwed something up.

I'm always screwing things.

up.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 is that the experiment set on the canary islands?

Oh, these are new articles. the thing I've got is from Feb 2011

KitFox

> I am in a different school (since January) and need to add it to [our system].

Really? Since January?

Jez

0

Q: How could a loving, just, merciful God have created such an unfair test for humans?

According to the Bible, God is loving: 1 John 4 (NIV) 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4 (NIV) 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. ... as well as j...

Matt Эллен

@KitFox how efficient!

Jez

my personal disproof of Christianity, in a tidy package

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:19 PM

@Jez Heh. I'm sure you are going to cause the entire christianity.se site to implode.

Mitch

@Jez a disproof of that particular kind of christianity. I'm sure many ...

KitFox

debates whether to consume last k-cup

Mitch

@MrShinyandNew安宇 exactly.

JSBᾶngs

OH NOES. some random dude on the internet has disproved chirstianity! waaa!

Mitch

@KitFox definitely. what else is there?

how much is left?

Jez

6:20 PM

see a lot of religions just make wacky claims but can't be *dis*proved. I think that ones that claim that god is 'loving/just' actually make the mistake of being *dis*provable, not just far-fetched

because that loving/just thing implies some stuff which is evidently not true

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Nah, they'll just hide in definitions and say "I forgot to add 'mysterious'".

Matt Эллен

@Jez well, I think it just means that God's idea of loving and just are different to yours

Jez

at least if your religion said, "our god is an ass and he only likes us, most humans will suffer and he hates them", that's wacky but not disprovable

it could, i hate to suppose, be true

KitFox

@Mitch Warming up the stuff from this morning.

@JSBᾶngs You can join my faith if you are distraught.

Jez

actually, Judaism did pretty much start out like that IIRC

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:22 PM

wondermark.com/804

Mitch

My god beat up your god. in a loving and forgiving manner of course.

Jez

but people got a liiitle bit annoyed with the cliqueness

Mitch

only those outside of the clique

inside of a dog it's too hard to read.

JSBᾶngs

@Jez you assume that your intuitive definitions of "loving" and "just" are congruent with the true ones. but you should know enough about the world to realize that intuitive definitions are often wrong

also, what's wrong with Visual Studio right now?

god must be mad at it. or at me.

Jez

@JSBngs If you weren't being facetious, they're definitions that are shared almost universally among languages and cultures

Matt Эллен

6:24 PM

god is mad at programmers

otherwise he wouldn't send us users

KitFox

Maybe there is something going around.

JSBᾶngs

@Jez you should always assume that i'm being facetious :P

KitFox

My VS was acting out earlier.

Jez

how long have you been a programmer, @KitFox ?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Well, to be fair, "just" as in "justice", is a concept that has many variations. i.e. in some cultures it's considered "just" to stone a woman who is caught committing adultery.

Mitch

6:26 PM

can't you win an argument by saying 'I'm not expressing myself very well, but it's true whatever I'm thinking of'?

Matt Эллен

@Mitch lol, that's the best way, yeah

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Or killing a woman who was raped.

Jez

@MrShinyandNew OK, but how could it be just to give different humans a different opportunity for salvation?

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 i was about to say that. "love" might have a shared cross-cultural definition, but "justice" sure as hell don't

KitFox

@Jez Professionally? A few years.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:27 PM

@Jez I'm not saying it is, or even that I disagree with your idea. I just don't think it "disproves" Christianity.

Jez

why not, if god is loving and just?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's just one contradiction among many.

Jez

either he isnt (Christianity is wrong) or this life isn't a test to get into heaven (Christianity is wrong)

Mitch

"god is loving and just" for -true- christians.

KitFox

If God is loving and just, it will all work out in the end.

JSBᾶngs

6:28 PM

in fact, in most cultures, including this one to a large degree, "just" means "according to the established rules", and the fact that you don't know or dislike the rules has no bearing at all

Mitch

what's wrong with leaving out the very nice but non christians?

Jez

@KitFox Demonstrably not true, though, if this life is to be a test.

KitFox

Really? How so?

JSBᾶngs

@Jez "life is a test to get into heaven" = Christianity?

then what the hell have i been doing? cos it sure ain't that

Jez

@JSBngs does that apply to the culture who wrote the NT, and English?

Mitch

6:28 PM

how is life a test? that's not universal, and only partially christian under certain arguable circumstances.

Jez

@JSBngs huh? are you a christian?

KitFox

Duh.

How could you miss that?

Jez

life is a test as to whether you accept Jesus, no? according to Christianity

Mitch

is the next topic going to be politics? If so, I just want to say right now that you're going to be wrong.

KitFox

The man's practically a preacher.

Couldn't we just skip to the sex part?

Mitch

6:30 PM

politics first

KitFox

The other taboo topics are really boring.

Mitch

and then favorite TV shows.

JSBᾶngs

@Jez evidently not, by your criteria

KitFox

Oh! And how cute and awesome our children are!

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox mine are cuter than yours!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:30 PM

@Jez: let me just say this. You can quote-mine the bible and find things that seem contradictory. Some of them clearly are. Some of them, it will be argued (not by me) appear contradictory but due to some subtle shade of meaning are not.

Mitch

what's realy interesting is bad mouthnig other peoples kids, barely out of earshot.

JSBᾶngs

@Mitch also, your favorite politicians are stupid and/or evil!

KitFox

@JSBᾶngs I thought we agreed that ours and @MrShiny's were equally adorable, for the sake of peace.

Mitch

(of the kids or parents or even better friends of the kids)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox did I agree to that? mine are pretty damn cute ;)

KitFox

6:31 PM

I'm pretty sure we did.

JSBᾶngs

@KitFox i don't remember agreeing to that

Mitch

@JSBᾶngs holy crap...watch it bub. that stung.

KitFox

If not, we had better, because otherwise, your envy will destroy this whole chat.

Mitch

I agree that you're all mistaken.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

my kids were playing with a couple toy trains, on the same track. My daughter's train came head on to my son's train, and he said to her "wrong way, sweet heart"

KitFox

6:32 PM

Awwww.

Mitch

cute little (expletive)

Matt Эллен

hehehe

JSBᾶngs

@Jez since i'm orthodox, i actually think this is a really good answer: christianity.stackexchange.com/a/7322/1573

KitFox

Did I tell you the one about...

JSBᾶngs

@Jez but even for non-Orthodox christians, the idea that being in Christ requires conscious, active belief in this life is a minority position, held by almost no one today, and held very infrequently even in "harsher" periods like the Middle Ages

KitFox

6:34 PM

@JSBᾶngs Yeah, I've heard that one before. I thought it was nice.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs where does the notion that all the dead exist contemporaneously in hades, and that Jesus went there to preach, come from? I've never heard of this......

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 the fact that Christ preached to the dead in Hades is universally believed, and is mentioned in the apostle's creed. the interpretation of "hades" has been somewhat variable, but the notion that it refers to the timeless state of death (rather than, say, a hot cave beneath the surface of the earth) goes back centuries, at least

i'd have to look up references

Mitch

I did -not- see any of that in Harry Potter. Will reread to night.

@KitFox excellent. Jokes. the one about what?

JSBᾶngs

the internet tells me that Aquinas, Hilary of Tours, and John Calvin (!) all propounded this view

Mitch

What's brown and sticky?

JSBᾶngs

6:38 PM

though I don't think that any of them originated it

Matt Эллен

@Mitch a stick?

Mitch

ding!

Jez

@JSBᾶngs I commented on that answer. :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs The notion of him going to Hades is in the Apostle's creed... bringing back all future non-believers is new to me.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 :)

@MrShinyandNew安宇 fatherstephen.wordpress.com/… <-- lots and lots of patristic and biblical discussion of the idea.

Jez

6:40 PM

@JSBᾶngs You say that today, almost no-one believes that "being in Christ" requires conscious, active belief in this life?

what do you define as "being in Christ"?

timothymh

I'm very happy. Chemistry.SE is in private beta.

JSBᾶngs

@timothymh congrats. you like the chemistries?

timothymh

@JSBᾶngs Not "like", per se, but I am in a Chemistry class which is somewhat enjoyable, yes.

Plus homework help is always nice.

;)

Mahnax

Greetings to all.

Mitch

Why can't we all just get a long? Try not to think so hard about the test thing.

JSBᾶngs

6:43 PM

@Jez probably some Calvinists and other fundamentalists believe that. i wouldn't call it a widespread view. your average evangelical/anglican/lutheran/catholic almost certainly does not believe it

timothymh

@Mahnax Hello!

Mahnax

@timothymh How are you this fine day?

JSBᾶngs

mtg. be back later.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs That article agrees with me in that the Roman Catholic teaching is that Jesus only brought back the dead who died before he did.

I guess it's another item to add to the list of differences between doctrines.

Mitch

You did see the youtube thing of the guy telling the Dalai Lama joke to the Dalai Lama?

oh duh. of course.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:45 PM

(@Jez that list of differences is one of the things that in my mind disproves Christianity: if God wanted to reveal himself to people, wouldn't it be better to just do it in a less ambiguous way? Instead, just make everything confusing.)

timothymh

@Mahnax Fine, fine. And you?

Jez

@JSBᾶngs Right, now what do you define as "being in Christ"?

Mahnax

@timothymh Oh, I'm OK. I just found out that the module I'm working on at school has three parts, not just two, and that was a little not fantastic.

Oh well.

timothymh

@Mahnax Oops.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mahnax Don't worry too much about it. In a few years you'll go to university, or college, or start working. you'll work until you're no longer useful to society, and eventually, you'll retire into poverty.

Mahnax

6:50 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You're a bit of a downer today.

timothymh

"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "The Babel Fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mahnax and wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Mahnax

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well, good luck.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm only mostly kidding.

But it is hard work from now until the end, basically.

3

Mahnax

Oh, that's potentially good.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:53 PM