English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2012-10-04 (page 4 of 5)

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5:06 PM

> che molti chiamano così; di solito si usa in tono polemico: Esempio: una persona che appartiene alla cosiddetta buona società.

@Alenanno It seems cosidetto is not entirely neutral either?

I think so-called has about the same range of connotations: it can also be used neutrally.

You could use this product (labelled "the Power Machine") or use commonly referred to as x etc. etc...

@Alenanno 'also known as' is neutral, 'synonymously' works but too many syllables.

@Cerberus Uhm I don't feel negativity in cosiddetto, unless I do the "quote" move with my fingers, then it might come out as sarcastic.

@Mitch In the end I used "known as". "Also known as" would be used when I have 2 or more "names", in this case it was only one, so "known as " worked perfectly. :)

@Cerberus I think that with wording, you could make it negative somehow, but I can't come up with examples.

@Alenanno Well, it says polemico...

@Alenanno I think you would need to consider each case separately.

In some cases, the negative sense won't be a problem: it others, you would want to repair/avoid it.

5:23 PM

@Cerberus Yeah, my statements were not final in any way. :) I don't exclude counterclaims to what I said.

@Cerberus True!

@Alenanno Yay!

0

Q: Locating a sentence's topic

I am trying to get the topic of a sentence, i.e what a sentence is talking about (not the grammatical subject which may be different). So far I have got: OpenNLP in Java which is giving me sentence detection, POS tagging, parsing, tokenizer and Name Finder. MatlParser,stanford Parser - which c...

nlp linguistic-determinism topic

Topics are often implicit. There is really no way to determine the various elements of a sentence with high topicality automatically, I'm afraid. This will only be possible once computer fully understand human language, which means they will have to understand about as much of the world as we do. That will take a while. — Cerberus 35 secs ago

@Cerberus Eheh...

I guess in Japanese it would be relatively simpler...

what-if.xkcd.com/1

5:41 PM

Nice.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

presidential debate, songified

@Alenanno we might say "known as".

@DavidWallace Maybe you missed it, but I said I used that in the end. :)

Ah, sorry, yes indeed I missed that.

@DavidWallace No worries! Thanks for the help!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:04 PM

@cerb: interesting rumour: Google is going to announce more than one nexus phone in Nov: androidcentral.com/…

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 This, this rumour has been circulating for a few months...I think would be good news?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yes, it could be.

The two concerns described in that post (I only browsed it) are indeed what would concern me most if I were Google: annoying Sense/Touchwiz, and late updates.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I am mostly satisfied with my samsung nexus. But I would like to see even more competition. And to see a higher-end Google tablet.

Well...

Besides the size of the screen, what would you want to do on a tablet that you can't on a Nexus 7?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:09 PM

@Cerberus Well, lots of people like HTC Sense. I don't know anyone who particularly likes touchwiz though

I hear mixed messages about both shells.

But still.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus HDMI output, rear-facing camera, SD card reader, hardware keyboard, USB port....

Stock Android is absolutely fine. Those shells can't do anything that a few specialised applications couldn't do, can they?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus no they can't. But it's still a question of providing added value out of the box or not.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm I would certainly want a card reader, yes. But somehow it doesn't seem likely that Google will change its ways in that matter.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:11 PM

Cyanogen, for example, provides value on top of Android. So does whatever Asus added onto the Transformer TF101. They have actually improved it.

@Cerberus Why not? It's a tablet. card readers are really useful.

and if they don't change their ways, what would be the point of having multiple vendors if there is no differentiation?

brb

Then why not simply install a few applications instead of an entire shell? (I think CM is much more of an overall improvement, from what I hear, than those shells, right?)

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Because they want you to pay € 100 extra for the 32-GB version, like Apple?

But I have to go, alas.

I don't know about Google's attitude towards card readers, honestly, but so far the two latest Nexus (yes, that is the plural) didn't have one. It was perhaps the main thing that made me consider the SII instead of the Galaxy Nexus.

They may be trying to get the public used to not having card readers.

sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Hi.

But now I really have to go AFK, later!

don't you just hate it when there's this goddamn amazing sexy woman that's out of reach?

life exists to frustrate me.

i'll not be able to forget her for months now.

Women; please stop being so attractive. Thanks.

All the more frustrating that there are so many millions of goddamn amazing sexy women who are somehow out of reach.

6:20 PM

yep

but if they're out of sight, they're generally out of my mind

it's when you're in close vicinity every day it really hits me like a sledgehammer

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Sometimes the changes cannot be easily made in an app and it's just easier to make a new launcher, which is also really just an app.

@Cerberus For a phone it makes sense to exclude a card reader because of space considerations. But for a tablet?

@Jez Poor Jez. Has to be in close vicinity with a sexy woman. :)

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 seriously. it's bad for my health

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez I bet :)

attractive women make me feel bad emotions

as i can never get them

mind you, i have been more infatuated with other women before

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Just go to one of those countries in Asia where there are lots of attractive women who are desperate to move to a 1st world nation.

6:24 PM

every time, my brain thinks "i'm never going to find another one as amazing"

yet there are probably millions as amazing

i guess it's the visceral part of the brain

logically i know it's BS

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'll give you a hint: most women are both not as amazing as you think and also more amazing than you think.

that's not a hint, it's a conundrum

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Nah, it just means don't be TOO picky or get too hung up on any particular one.

she wasn't wearing any rings on her fingers. i wonder how common it is for women nowadays not to wear rings even if they are involved.

who knows.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So why was she so out of reach?

6:27 PM

even happened to be sitting next to her in one of the inductions, but i didnt talk to her because it would've been too obvious why i was talking to her

that's how my dumb mind works

or fails to

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Do you still get anxious with people?

If I can ask that

depends what you mean by anxious

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well I seem to recall you mentioning some kind of anxiety that made it hard to get to know people.

not anxious just being in people's company, but there's a clear line between that and flirting

and to my mind, basically, talking to a woman is flirting

(outside of a work context)

it's a shame we're not working together on some project. that would be good.

10 metres away from me and she might as well be in Timbuktu

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, here's the thing about "flirting": even if it's transparently flirting, that's not a bad thing. If she can't tell you're flirting, then it ain't working.

6:31 PM

ah, but it's in a work context, in a country where flirting at work is "inappropriate" and can get you disciplined.

modern workplaces like to deny human nature in an Orwellian way.

Matt Эллен

it is frustrating

at least it's not Sweden. i'd probably be in jail for having a penis

i can tell she's northern. probably Yorkshire. i heard her saying "ta"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, I don't know what your country's laws are like, but I'm pretty sure it's only "inappropriate" if you overdo it.

when i die it'll all be a computer game and i'll say "ah, i chose the 'frustration' option"

what a crappy choice

is the human brain conditioned never to feel contented?

if i were in a worse situation, i wouldn't care about my social status half as much

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think some people are actually never happy with what they have.

I consider myself happy with what I have though. I mean, I want more than I have, but overall, I'm not unhappy.

6:42 PM

im unhappy with what i have

im not sure many would even consider it acceptable, socially

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

being single?

yeah

how can some guys actually enjoy the challenge? it's unbelievable

it's like looking forward to climbing mount Everest, when you stand a good chance of dying half way up

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Aren't there any challenges you enjoy?

And most people who climb everest enjoy it. Look forward to it.

most people dont climb everest.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Well, but those that do enjoy it. Or think they will.

6:47 PM

but most dont even wish they could try

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, my advice to you remains to get out more. Find places where women are and go there. Classes. hobby clubs. travel. whatever. Practice talking to women you don't intend to date. Talk to as many as you can. All of them. As often as you can.

Talk to women who are out of your league. Women whose league you're out of. Women you don't find attractive. Women you do. Women you find annoying.

Make as many female friends as you can.

It's bound to lead somewhere.

sure, but it wont take care of this very specific problem. i hate it when you get attached to one in particular.

no rhyme or reason to it.

my id just says, "well if you cant have HER, im just going to make you fucking miserable."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Nah, it will help. Because you will build confidence. And confidence is the key. If there's one character trait that stands out in dating and job interviews, it's confidence.

The thing is, as you get practiced at talking to more women, you will eventually succeed in finding a girlfriend. Once you do, the other women become less important AND less intimidating.

yeah? why the heck am i quite good at job interviews and terrible at dating?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Because you are confident about your work but not about women.

And I bet you've practised your work for years. Comparatively, how much time have you practised talking to strangers/women?

6:54 PM

practicing my work is easy. computers don't embarrass or reject you.

it never was hard.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

True

But practice makes perfect

i mean, the first time i saw a computer, i thought "yeah, this is gonna be fun."

some men are like that with women. god, i envy them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You need to take embarrassment and rejection in stride. Easier said than done, I know, but that is really the key. It's like learning a new language. You're bound to say something unintentionally hilarious or stupid.

it's not even saying something stupid. it's the very act of talking to her.

basically it's obvious why you're doing so.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, that's why I suggest you practice on less obvious women. Just make chit-chat.

6:58 PM

so when I say "how are you?" only to her, my mind thinks she's hearing "let's fuck"

which, to be fair, is my intention

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez She might be hearing that. But A) that doesn't mean she isn't prepared to hear the rest of your spiel, and B) she might not be hearing that.

yeah i know

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And C) maybe you should try to convey a message more along the lines of "Let's get to know each other better"

but im just explaining why i have the apprehension

how is "how are you?" conveying some other message? :-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, I've never been really good at chatting up random strangers. I always look for some "in" into a conversation.

7:01 PM

there's no such thing as a heterosexual man being friendly to a woman without there being a sexual attraction

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So I wouldn't start with "how are you", except inasmuch as that substitutes for "hello".

actually i'll refine that a bit; an attractive woman

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez please, there sure is.

well maybe, with men who talk to everyone

but i'm evidently nothing of the sort

so who i talk to is very noticeable

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez well, now you have a tautology. "There's no such thing as not being attracted to an attractive person". Well, if you state it in those terms, sure. But that doesn't mean that you can't compartmentalize it.

7:03 PM

I hate to compartmentalize, but may I? May I?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Example: I know lots of attractive women. Some of them are attractive in general, but not so much to me, and some I find attractive. But when I talk to them I am not thinking about having sex with them.

you have a happy sex life?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

most of the time

try not doing so, and not thinking about having sex with them

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, I have. And anyway I submit that it doesn't matter if you maybe somewhat want to have sex with them. You can still talk about things and be friendly and be non-sexual.

7:05 PM

actually, i'm going to be even more tragically honest (maybe it's the cider). I saw her when I was being shown around the office during the interview. i liked her then and hoped I'd get the job because of it. I got the job.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

so how long have you worked there

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yeah, I wish.

a week and a half.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

good, so you're new there. You have the pretext of ignorance which you can use to ask her almost anything. It's not like you are expected to know better.

erm

She'll see through it immediately.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:07 PM

Ask her how to find something in the office. Or where so-and-so sits. Or whatever.

why would i choose to ask her?

yeah, see Kitfox is a woman. they know things.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox Well, like I said: if someone can't tell you're flirting, it isn't working

Unless she's the office admin or something, and even then, she'll know.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The point is just to make chit-chat and conversation.

Just say something nice to her, and then get out of there. Leave a good impression.

So Jez has to make a particular point of asking nonchalantly, asking only one thing, and not getting fussy if she doesn't immediately start hanging out at his desk.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:09 PM

yeah

Exactly. Strategic surgical strike.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@kit does this make sense to you?

or am I too long out of the office dating game

Then wait a week and find another excuse and do the same thing.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, I hold to the policy that you shouldn't shit where you eat.

But if you're going to do it, you might as well practice proper protocol.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox A useful policy but not always practical.

dating is like shitting?

7:11 PM

Yep.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez yes, if you screw it up

Otherwise it's like eating.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Tru dat, but it doesn't make any difference now that I'm married, thankfully.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox yeah I'm with you on that one.

i'm curious; what's the culture like where you work? do people sit down and eat together? because at my place, the large majority might come into the kitchen to prepare something, but then they'll go back and eat at their desk instead of sitting in the canteen.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez It varies from workplace to workplace.

I work at home now so I usually eat in my dining room.

7:12 PM

It varies. I eat with my liaison at my consulting job. I eat in my office usually at my day job.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I am not usually distracted all day by attractive coworkers or office-mates.

ok, my brain is just broken

Although sometimes I have lunch with co-workers. Mostly I hate them, so I don't want to eat with them.

@KitFox don't want to fuck any of em?

@Jez Hells no.

Not a one.

7:13 PM

lucky.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox Not even your boss? :p

ducks

means you can actually concentrate on work

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez If you did manage to score a relationship with this girl, you still wouldn't be able to concentrate on work.

And furthermore, if you have a new girlfriend anywhere, even at another workplace, you won't be able to concentrate on work either.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You are an evil man.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i don't know. it might change me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:15 PM

@KitFox You know I'm kidding.

@Jez I don't do that anyway.

@KitFox well my work is serious, so i actually need to concentrate. :-)

One place I worked, I was hot for almost everyone. We were a good-looking bunch.

I was in the elevator one day and realized that I had slept with everyone in it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez it would change you. But in my experience whenever you have a new relationship it fills your mind. Your other relationships (i.e. friends, etc) suffer.

dont have many other relationships so no problem there

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:16 PM

@Jez And this is the crux of your problem! Or a symptom. Get. Out. More.

some people manage to land their life partner at work, though.

how lucky can you get? that lucky. no more lucky.

I was lucky enough to land my life partner at a bar.

And then again at home. And again in the convenience store restroom. And...

that's more standard

because you're female, that doesn't make me at all jealous

:-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

some people manage to land their life partner in day-care. Others in high-school. For me it was in university: we were in the same residence and had a common friend. Other people meet at work, or through friends, or on a mail-order-bride service. YMMV.

i'm only jealous of hetero men who have happy relationships

7:19 PM

I think Jez should get a mail-order bride. I'm pretty sure I've said so before.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez That implies you should be jealous of Kit's Mr. Fox.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 that thought occurred to me as i was typing

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And you too, right?

mail-order brides will just get citizenship and fuck off

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Just a few minutes ago I suggested he go to asia to pick up a woman desperate to move overseas.

7:20 PM

@Jez So then you get another one.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox I guess so. I'm not used to having people be jealous of me.

hell, to get into the UK you just need to physically get here

@KitFox bitchy thing to say.

@Jez Really? I thought it was sensible.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 actually, i'm also not jealous of guys whose partners i don't fancy

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Maybe after you've had one for a while you'll decide it isn't your thing after all :)

7:21 PM

@KitFox it implies i dont care about a lasting relationship, which i do

@Jez That's not what I mean at all.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Then it's important that you put aside thoughts of having sex with attractive coworkers and instead focus on building friendships with women.

You can just keep trying new ones until you find the one that stays.

That's what I meant.

how many men who are of sexually active age care about building friendships with women?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I would not be surprised if a mail-order bride stayed as long as you got along and treated her nicely. It takes a long time, usually, to get citizenship, and that is enough time to build a relationship.

7:23 PM

Maybe you could just visit professionals for a while, to take the edge off, and consider free sex as off the table. That would help you focus on being friends with women instead of getting sidetracked by trying to get laid.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez The ones who want a lasting relationship. Because the sex itself won't last. Not like you imagine it will.

@KitFox apart from being technically illegal and prone to STD transmission, expensive, and depressing... great idea.

You just need to find the right agency.

no, masturbation is a better alternative to that

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Go travelling to Amsterdam. Cerb knows a place right near his house.

but don't go in the summer, or he'll hear you.

7:25 PM

if there's no long-term relationship, there's no point

Hahaha

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

choke I made myself laugh and nearly choked on my coffee

i didn't get it

@Jez There is a point, and it is to clear your head and boost your chances of success with other women.

and why doesnt masturbation do that?

(at least as well as some temp. woman would)

7:26 PM

Does it? Does it help you not think about how you are going to get laid?

In my experience, it just makes me want it more.

yeah. afterwards i lose an enormous amount of pent-up lust

not me.

trouble is, i build up lust quickly.

over an hour, if she's in view. maybe less.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Cerb one time mentioned that when it's hot in Amsterdam the prostitutes open the windows and he can hear them with their clients.

Well, I bet a pro would sate you for longer.

And might teach you some useful things too.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I then imagined that he was hearing you and that was so funny I started giggling, with coffee in my mouth.

@KitFox i'd take that bet

drugs. they need to legalize drugs that chill you out

stupid conservative world

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:29 PM

@Jez Go to Amsterdam.

So by the way, my big boss emailed me for the third time about this enormously magnified issue he has come up with. This time I ignored him completely. I really don't need to answer the same question three times.

Holland's getting less and less tolerant

particularly of tourists

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So get in while you can

@KitFox have sex with him and he might stop

@Jez Never. And that's just a weird suggestion.

7:29 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i doubt you can anymore

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez I'm pretty sure she'd rather gouge out her eyes with a rusty pick-axe

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, this is the big boss, not the project lead.

it wasnt intended to be a sensible suggestion

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox Ah, I admit that I have not closely followed your org chart :)

i have the sense of humour of a serial killer

7:30 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No way. You don't have it drawn out and posted on your wall?

Do you believe that studying Latin has any benefits? Which? (Sorry if this is off topic.)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox I tried etching it on my etch-a-sketch but then it fell off the wall and erased itself.

@Bane Yes.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 giggles

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Benefit #1: you'd know latin.

@Cerberus You have a customer!

Benefit #2: Latin is sexy.

To some people.

7:32 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 not true. i forgot almost all Latin I know, apart from the first sentence in the textbook, Bregans est servus

coughs

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Benefit #3: Your latin class might have attractive people in it you could get to know. HINT HINT @JEZ

i went to an all-boys school

Benefit #4: You could figure out latinates.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Benefit #5: learning two languages helps you learn three, and learning three helps you learn four, etc.

7:33 PM

could someone just get this girl to go out with me?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez Only you can do that.

you want me to do something? ugh.

The only book I have in Latin is Cattus Petasatus.

giggles

what is the only animal whose common name is identical to its biological name?

7:35 PM

vulpes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez tyrannosaurus rex?

#1: That's implied, not really a benefit per se.
#2: I tend to disagree.
#3: Not really, studying Latin is mandatory in my country, so it's just my standard class with same old people.
#4: I already can, without knowing Latin, just look up their definition. And even when I am, for example, reading some papers that have latinates in them, I usually get the meaning of it wrong, as it could be interpreted in many ways.
#5: That's already implied, but if your argument is that Latin can help me learn new languages, then I'd say that I'd much rather learn proto indo european or something like that.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 ok, extant animal

Betta.

Hello @Bane who are you? I have never seen you here. Hello everyone.

7:37 PM

@Bane Then there isn't any benefit, so you might as well not.

nobody guesses it?

@Carlo_R., I'm new here, hi.
@KitFox, I'm not sure, so I'm asking. I'm getting more and more interested into languages, but my professor was sent from hell to demotivate anyone.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Bane You'd rather learn PIE before learning latin? Honestly that doesn't make sense to me. If you see no benefit in learning latin, what benefit do you have in learning PIE?

Great. One of the rare times I post a question and it's already attracted a closevote. General Reference on a phrase not found in any reference works? Really?

@Jez I said Betta. Also Tetra.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:38 PM

@Jez I give up.

@MετάEd We do that all the time.

Also, coelcanth.

@KitFox Betta is a genus, not a species

@Jez Did you say species?

well animal kind of implies it

You said common name is the same as the biological name.

7:39 PM

of species.

You didn't specify species.

You said biological name.

well i do now

OK then.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇, PIE is the root of most languages, and if I understood it correctly, one of the first structured languages to exist. So it's inherently interesting, because I wan't to learn how languages came to be and how they evolved.

anyway, it's the boa constrictor.

7:41 PM

@Bane Well then, your motivation ought to be to stick it to him.

curious, because we could've called it the squeezy snake.

@KitFox What do you mean? Stick to Latin?

@Bane No, nothing to do with Latin. Learn it just to spite your evil teacher.

@Kit Last night I read your intersting story on the first kiss. I'm astonished and I'm still wondering if the story is true. 14 years old: terrible!

@KitFox That's completely impossible. Even though almost half of the class barely passed Latin, everyone loves her. The situation is very difficult to describe, though...

7:43 PM

So you're not really asking why you should learn Latin.

@Carlo_R. What's that now? About the teacher? He didn't actually kiss me.

No wait, I misunderstood what you wrote...

I thought that you suggested provoking my teacher, but I didn't see the "by studying" Latin part...

@Kit Ah, fortunately!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Bane Latin is a closer root of many languages still in use today, so you can more easily use it as a springboard for learning other languages that people use, which would have more immediate benefits, such as being able to communicate in foreign countries. If you are considering studying linguistics, you almost certainly would need to study latin and greek ANYWAY, so may as well get it over with.

Plus Latin is one of the more complicated languages, so if you can master it, others will seem pretty easy.

@Bane I have studied Latin a lot at school. It is beautiful Language. Sincerely, I have not still understood why we have abbandoned it and why we use florentine dialect as official language.

7:48 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't really want to learn new languages, except just study dead ones, I'm not interested in communication because English and German are just enough for me. And I'm also just interested in linguistics, I don't actually plan to study it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Bane Latin IS a dead language.

@KitFox My native language, Croatian, is IMHO more complicated than Latin.

Native languages don't count.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Honestly I think an education in Latin will give you a much more useful base, linguistically and foreign-language-wise than PIE.

@KitFox OK, that makes sense.

7:50 PM

Sorry, but you don't learn your native tongue the way you learn another language.

@KitFox True indeed.

German might suit fine. It is almost as complex.

by the way, any Brits might want to know that Red Dwarf X is airing at 9pm on Dave. i for one shall be watching with a curry and cider at hand :-)

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I believe you, but I'm still interested in how languages came to be, and their evolution, but as we can all see Latin is pretty developed. But I know nothing about PIE, only that it predates many languages, so I'm tapping in the dark here...

@Jez Oh oh!

Not fair!

7:52 PM

What is PIE?

Proto Indo European

:)

Does anyone know to what extent has it been reconstructed? Is it "Turing complete"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Bane But given that you have knowledge of German, and English, and Croatian, but no knowledge of Latin, how will learning PIE show you the evolution? Don't you also need to learn the older Germanic languages that predate German and English, and also Norman French, and Latin, and Greek, and whatever links those to PIE? Otherwise you are looking at a Velociraptor and trying to figure out how it evolved into a chicken.

@Bane Turing complete? :D

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:54 PM

@Bane Do you know what "Turing Complete" means?

I have herd that "turing complete" do not exist

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Turing completeness

In computability theory, a system of data-manipulation rules (such as a computer's instruction set, a programming language, or a cellular automaton) is said to be Turing complete or computationally universal if it can be used to simulate any single-taped Turing machine. A classic example is the lambda calculus. The concept is named after Alan Turing. Computability theory includes the closely related concept of Turing equivalence. Two computers P and Q are called Turing equivalent if P can simulate Q and Q can simulate P. Thus, a Turing-complete system is one that can simulate a Turing ...

Because Godel has demonstrated that not exist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes. If there was no verb for "sleeping", I'd consider a language non-Turing complete. Well, you could describe it.

I just borrowed that term from CS because it seem to apply here... Kind of.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Bane Turing completeness is a concept of computability. Not of vocabulary.

7:56 PM

+1 Mr. Shiny

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Carlo_R. Turing Completeness exists.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Today it is usually used in the context of programming languages. As I described, if there was no way of saying something, I think you could call it "non-Turing-complete".

But, as far as I know, Godel has demonstrated tha TC does not exist.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Carlo_R. No, it does exist.

@Carlo_R. How? That doesn't make sense...

7:58 PM

Why?

Turing came after Gödel, for one thing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Bane All languages have things that cannot be easily said. Example, in English, you can't express a future tense without adding helper words. Does that make English "non turing-complete"? And if so, what would be the point of such a label?

It's mathematically impossible for two mathematicians to come at the same time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd what if they're in a threesome?

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