English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2012-10-03 (page 1 of 6)

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12:53 AM

What the hell is it about 17–19 year-old boys that so inclines them towards being arrogant know-it-alls when in truth they know so little? Too much testosterone?

@tchrist I was just looking at that. You should edit the title while you're at it, btw.

I’m not about to edit your sloppily miswritten English into standard form; that’s your job. I’ll just watch as it garners more downvotes and more closevotes. — tchrist 18 secs ago

That was my initial statement regarding his old grammer.

I’m sure she’s a sweeter lady than he is.

Oh. Well then.

Very uppity. "Just want to be different"? Isn’t that silly?

Yes.

12:58 AM

It just isn’t very smart. His statements belie his username.

You know what I found funny, was that the answer came from a kindergarten math site.

CrazyCasta's third link, takes you to a site that says math practice for 5-15 yr olds.

@tchrist I think you should stop.

Stop what?

You're being mean to a kid just because he made a harmless joke.

4

I don’t ever take children badmouthing America — particularly out of ignorance — very well.

I don’t see any indication that it was a joke.

Do you?

I tend to give kids too much slack anyway.

1:06 AM

He's immature. Just ignore him @tchrist. It may have been intended as a joke, but not very well implemented.

Just chill out and let him be.

I can't imagine anyone would ever seriously get his knickers in a twist over "country X just wants to be different". It's about as harmless as they come.

1:23 AM

What's all this changing of the shape of quotation marks @tchrist and @MετάEd?

Are you cleaning up format, or are the other shaped quotes wrong?

2 hours later…

3:05 AM

@SpareOom Style editing. Text can be beautiful.

3:58 AM

stackroulette.com -- this is legal?

1 hour later…

5:07 AM

@MετάEd Yes, it is.

Look at the bottom of the page.

@Mahnax Yes, I saw the acknowledgement. However I would think the compilation copyright still belongs to SE and that wholesale copying of the compilation would infringe.

@MετάEd Not according to what I've read.

I could be wrong, but since it acknowledges the content source and the authors of said content, it's A-OK.

(In this particular case.)

"The Network is protected by copyright as a collective work and/or compilation, pursuant to U.S. copyright laws, international conventions, and other copyright laws."

"Other than as expressly set forth in this Agreement, Subscriber may not copy, modify, publish, transmit, upload, participate in the transfer or sale of, reproduce (except as provided in this Section), create derivative works based on, distribute, perform, display, or in any way exploit, any of the Content, software, materials, or Services in whole or in part."

@RegDwighт do "StackRoulette" have the necessary permission to do what they're doing (link about 1 hour above)?

5:23 AM

@MετάEd meta.stackoverflow.com/a/24618/169550

It's legal.

@Mahnax That means the user contributions, individually. Compilation is different. It is the collection and organization of content.

SE has, for example, organized user contributions into a question-and-answer format. When StackRoulette reproduces this organization, it needs permission above and beyond the permission granted for the copying of user-contributed content.

It may have the necessary permission, of course. I don't know.

Howdy

@MετάEd I don't know whether it's "legal" per se, but I know SE doesn't mind the content being used like this, esp. since it's in compliance with SE attribution rules.

@MετάEd You might be right, but I've never seen any different rules for compilation.

@waiwai933 Thanks.

@Mahnax You're looking at the SE rules for compilation copyright in the quoted text above. That's from the SE legalese.

5:36 AM

I remember something, where Jeff said that they were working on downloadable xmls for SO...

@MετάEd Ah.

Since English.SE is an extension of SO, I think it applies to the whole network...

3 hours later…

Matt Эллен

9:02 AM

user image

but I don't wanna go to hell!

1 hour later…

Matt Эллен

10:13 AM

0

Q: Why do some word processors render etc.. as incorrect?

For example, this is a sentence I want to write: You can put lettuce, onions, garlic, etc.. Notice my use of two periods at the end. Is that correct usage? Because I always thought of etc. to be spelt that way, with a trailing period, and I also put the full stop in there, as that was the e...

punctuation abbreviations

dupe

10

Q: Punctuation around abbreviations

I always stumble when using abbreviations in a sentence, as they inherently contain a period in them. How do I use a comma or a semicolon after an abbreviation? How about a period? E.g. (This is an example of my quandary)

punctuation abbreviations

@MattЭллен haha... robots don't go to Hell... they just rust away...

Matt Эллен

user image

@ShyamK I beg to differ!

10:40 AM

ROFL

Robot Hell...

@MattЭллен But then again its in the future... You might live that long though... to see such a future... Unless your batteries run out...

Matt Эллен

but I'm not a robot!

Stack Exchange English Language & Usage Blog: That vs Which: A Pragmatic Approach

StoneyB on October 01, 2012

“There’s glory for you!”

H. Dumpty, founder of linguistic pragmatics

If you’re looking for a balanced discussion of the That vs Who/whom/whose/which controversy, go here. I’m not interested.

A hundred years ago the Fowlers put forward a modest proposal. Linguistic bureaucrats elevated this proposal to a Rule, linguistic libertarians resisted; and today the Fowlers’ proposal is an Issue hotly contested by Conservative and Liberal ideologues.

I have no taste for political disputation. While my sympathies lie with the Liberals (who in the Fowlers’ day would have been the Reac …

11:29 AM

@MattЭллен thats what all robots say...

@MattЭллен Let's see the scores from your last Turing test.

Matt Эллен

11:59 AM

@Robusto I don't need to take one. That's only for robots

@MattЭллен Pro tip: the plural of anecdote is not data.

Of course not. It's anecditties.

Matt Эллен

"There was this one time, at the LHC, where we saw some, y' know, collisions and, like, they totes looked like the Higgs Boson"

Morning.

Matt Эллен

Afternoon.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:15 PM

morning

Hello.

Hello.

I feel really mild and forgiving today.

How sick is that?

Sweet.

Matt Эллен

sick as in good?

12:19 PM

@MattЭллен you must have failed yours. Are you ashamed to tell us your score? :P Don'r worry we won't judge you

I don't know.

dreams of the annoying things she will do to @Cerb today

You may commence.

Matt Эллен

@ShyamK shush your robot mouth!

Why are the robots arguing?

Matt Эллен

12:20 PM

I'm not a robot!

presses off buttons

checksum

Matt Эллен

press my buttons all you like :D

It won't turn me off

Oh, there's my problem right there.

turns robots upside-down

Matt Эллен

12:22 PM

@KitFox bad checksum?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Matt: This sentence is false.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 how can a sentence be false?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен If it expresses a false condition

eg "The sky is green" is a false sentence

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 but you are human?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен I am human, but are you?

In philosophy and logic, the liar paradox or liar's paradox (pseudomenon in Ancient Greek) is the statement "this sentence is false." Trying to assign to this statement a classical binary truth value leads to a contradiction (see paradox). If "this sentence is false" is true, then the sentence is false, which would in turn mean that it is actually true, but this would mean that it is false, and so on ad infinitum. Similarly, if "this sentence is false" is false, then the sentence is true, which would in turn mean that it is actually false, but this would mean that it is true, and so on a...

Matt Эллен

12:23 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 then you are either lying or wrong

no robot would fall for that!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> In Portal 2, GLaDOS tries to use this paradox to defeat Wheatley, on assumption that paradoxes take all of the CPU power to process. But, as Wheatley is programmed to be "the dumbest moron who ever lived", the paradox doesn't affect him, although the nearby "Frankenturrets" short out upon hearing the paradox, and it takes GLaDOS an enormous effort not to short out herself.

Matt Эллен

spoilers!

38

Q: I am not an electronic gadget!

The site descriptions at http://stackexchange.com/sites are inconsistent. According to the list: SO is for programmers SU for computer enthusiasts SF for administrators Webmasters for pro webmasters Ubuntu for Ubuntu users and developers Gaming for passionate videogamers... but Electroni...

bug status-completed stackexchange fun description

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

aw, you haven't played portal 2 yet?

have you played portal 1?

Damn it @Mr.Shiny!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:25 PM

what? what!?

I haven't played it yet!

All dogs are pack animals. @Cerberus is a dog. Therefore, @Cerberus is a pack animal. QED.

So put a pack on him already!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

well, it's just one joke out of the whole game

sorry

turns on Pandora, cranks it up to drown out the neural reconfig

I'm just teasing you.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Uh, how about a SPOILER ALERT?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:26 PM

anyway, I recommend both Portal and Portal2.

SPOILER ALERT. The cake is Luke's father.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

SPOILER ALERT: You guys are all even more behinder in video games than me.

@Robusto Sure, I'll do whatever is needed.

@KitFox That's a lie.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So @kit since you're here, I wanted to brag about my daughter. She is reading books to her class at circle time.

12:29 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 w00t!

Excellent.

I confess to never having finished Portal. It just bored me. I apologize for this failing, but I see no reason to correct my behavior at this time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm so proud of her.

feels proud of Mr.Shiny's little girl

@KitFox Hahaha. Mr. Shiny has a "little one"!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto Then don't play portal 2. IT's like portal 1, but with more story.

12:30 PM

@Robusto I'm going to guess that you've never worked in a scientific research facility.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto Hey now. I have two.

@Robusto You are just awful.

@KitFox I have had equally boring jobs.

@KitFox "Just" awful? I am a great deal more awful than that.

@Robusto Mm-hmm. So you definitely haven't then.

Uh oh. I don't usually listen to music while I work, but I figured with this knitting work today, I could risk it.

Except it's Pandora, so there's acres of music I haven't heard before and it's all really good.

And it's making me feel like writing instead of working.

Naughty box!

user image

Look at the lazy Aussies!

12:34 PM

Wow. Now I feel justified in slacking off more.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto isn't the bottom line GB?

And the y-axis is distorted to exaggerate the differences.

Matt Эллен

phew! it's gone

But you know, whatever.

Oh, it went down even for the Americans.

They are known as hard workers.

Matt Эллен

12:36 PM

lol. UK is slacking a lot, apparently

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Gah, sorry. You're right. Look at the lazy Brits!

@MattЭллен The rest of Europe will no doubt be lower.

Matt Эллен

you do love your siestas!

nods

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah, one thing I noticed in Austria is that they roll up the sidewalks at 6:30pm and on sundays.

12:37 PM

@Cerberus We are still crushing the other Anglophones. And Anglophones crush non-Anglophones by this measure as well.

OMG, this is Massive Attack? I am so out of the loop.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Roll up sidewalks?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They have sidewalks?

@Cerberus Really? The corporates like to tell us how lazy we are.

@Robusto Yes, exactly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:38 PM

@Cerberus yeah, everything is shut down so they pack up the sidewalks and put them away until the next day.

@KitFox Well, you are lazier than you used to be...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto some streets do. And some streets are nothing BUT sidewalk.

> It's true that Anglophones work more than Continentals and it's true that Americans work more than most Anglophones and it's true that this looks particularly anomalous in light of how rich the English-speaking countries are. But even in America the trend is (rightly) toward less work.

user image

@Cerberus Tru dat.

12:40 PM

@Robusto But then several Continental countries make more per hour.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How do you roll this up?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Oh, and another thing I noticed in Vienna: People park their cars REALLY REALLY close. I don't know how many times I came across a line of cars parked so close that you'd need a crane to get a non-end car out.

You are talking about taking signs and benches inside?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus sigh it's a figure of speech. It means that everything closes up at 6:30.

Right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And I mean EVERYTHING

well, except some restaurants.

12:41 PM

@Cerberus Which proves what, exactly?

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 sigh? it doesn't make sense to me either.

Must be an North American thing.

It is true that shops close early and often on the Continent. In most places, no shops will be open at all on Sundays, outside a few big cities.

In Germany, it's even worse.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

well, in north america, there are lots of places, especially toursity places, where nothing is ever closed. I.e. most stores are open until 9 here.

@Robusto That we win!!! Harr harr!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:42 PM

And most stores are open sundays.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I believe nearly all restaurants are open on Sundays.

@Cerberus What did you win?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 We have some of that in touristy places. And supermarkets in the cities will be open until 10—but that is only since maybe 2000.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So when I visit a place like Austria, or Nova Scotia, where 70% of everything closes between 5pm and 7pm, and nothing is open on sundays (excepting restaurants), it feels odd.

@Robusto Moneh.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, it is insanely annoying.

It is to some degree a vestige of Christian times.

It is here.

The Christian parties are against allowing shops to stay open on Sundays.

12:44 PM

@Cerberus Spendable after-taxes-and-VAT money?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I don't mind so much that places close on Sundays, but I would be annoyed if I lived there and everything was closed early in the evening AND closed on Sundays. How would I get any shopping done?

@Cerberus of course it is.

It has been forbidden for so long; the process is still on going. Then there is the issue of wanting to protect small shops. We don't want franchises in the cities.

@Robusto Well, yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus you don't? why not?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, leave work early. Because them Europeans don't work much. must be what they do.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is a widely held view that they make city centres less attractive.

12:46 PM

@Cerberus Well, no. Not really.

Matt Эллен

We have a 24hr supermarket near me. it closes at 4pm on Sunday, just like the rest of Oxford.

Everything's closed here today.

@Robusto I just want money, okay? That's all I was saying.

No, I want money.

@RegDwighт Today?? See, told you Germany was crazy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:47 PM

@Cerberus Well, Vienna's "old city" has lots of franchises and I didn't think it was problematic. Granted: it would have sucked if every single cafe was actually a starbucks.

Yeah.

@MattЭллен As George Carlin wondered, why are there locks on the doors of establishments that never close?

And every single shop a Hema or whatever they have there.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto Because they don't never close. They just almost never close. I never understood why Carlin would make that joke. Must have been a slow humour day.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto so that the employees get the impression that one day they can have a day off

12:48 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 NO U R.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Heheh near Stephensdom there are at least 3 "Salamander" shops. And maybe 6 "Nordsee" restaurants.

The thing is, I think you can stimulate small shops in different ways, without bothering civilians with closed shops.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 See?

@Cerberus Can we get video of you "stimulating" a small shop? I think it would go viral.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Nordsee. not see.

Matt Эллен

Oxford is similarly polluted with costa coffee, pret a manger and other coffee shop chains.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:50 PM

Incidentally that was the "fast food" place I was eating at when I told the story about a woman scraping the batter off her fish and flinging it onto my shoes.

In my neighbourhood, there are lots of restaurants of this "Argentinian" grill chain. Of course I have never been there, but I'm sure they suck. I don't think they would be allowed outside the extremely touristy streets. And they are even busy cleaning those streets up, so who knows? And luckily there are tons and tons of independent restaurants everywhere.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, if you want to talk about the most annoying chain, you should visit Salzburg, where they have Catholic Churches EVERYWHERE. More churches in that town than Seattle has Starbucks shops. You can literally fling Communion wafers from one church to the next (and those little wafers don't fly very far)

@Robusto Do you remember that video where school boys were stimulating the Taj Mahal on a school trip? I think they were Dutch. The video was taken down on complaint of the Indian government and the boys suspended.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus heheh you are sure they suck. But maybe if they sucked so much nobody would go there?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Bleh, having restaurants called Nordsee about 2000 km inland is so stupid.

12:52 PM

@MattЭллен Don't forget commas. Oxford is famous for them.

@MattЭллен Bleeeh but are there enough independent cafés left?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus loads

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Are you familiar with this chain? They apparently have lots of locations in Germany, Austria, and two other countries that I forget.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto and jackets

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Haha, yes, that chain is annoying. Then again, they do have pretty store fronts.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:53 PM

The food at Nordsee was pretty crappy though. At least, the stuff we bought.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Nope.

@MattЭллен And shoes. Don't forget shoes.

I don't think I ever eat at chains.

I do buy stuff at chain shops, but only boring stuff.

Matt Эллен

I only eat in chairs

*in chains

Your fetish doesn't count.

Matt Эллен

12:54 PM

:D

I mean, no disrespect. But.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, not all chains are bad. Just because a business is so successful that they opened multiple locations doesn't imply that their products aren't worth buying.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It depends on the kind of product, I'd say.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No it doesn't. By definition, a chain exists because people like the product.

Otherwise it'd go out of business.

Ehh...

Matt Эллен

12:56 PM

but liking the product doesn't make it worthwhile

McDonalds are popular. Their food is not good.

their food has lots of salt and sugar in it to make you like it

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If people like Croqs, that doesn't mean they are good.

@MattЭллен Exactly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Example: I had coffee at a dozen cafes in Vienna. I also often have coffee at Starbucks and 2nd Cup (Canadian chain). Guess what? the chain coffee is equal or better than the cafe coffee.

That is perhaps because it is closer to the Anglo-Saxon coffee you are used to at home?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Well, their food is not the best on the market, but it is still enjoyed by lots of people.

@Cerberus No, I am comparing espresso to espresso here.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 but that doesn't make it worthwhile

12:58 PM

The kind of espresso you are used to at home?

Brits like their beer dead and luke-warm. Or so they say.

Matt Эллен

I don't know, I don't like beer :D

Aww really?

gasps

Perhaps you don't like British beer...

Matt Эллен

aye. I think it tastes horrible

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:59 PM

@Cerberus Yes. And in Canada we have a chain called "Swiss Chalet" that serves mainly bbq chicken. It's pretty good chicken. The fact that it's a chain doesn't have any bearing on the fact that they cook good chicken there.

Hmm.

I suppose beer is bitter.

Try crappy American beer served ice cold.

Matt Эллен

I would say Bud is the closest to nice I've found beer

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh yeah. I forgot about that chain. I loved going there when I lived in Canada.

Matt Эллен

still unpleasant though

12:59 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Haha what, Swiss Châlet serves barbecue chicken?? That is funny.

@MattЭллен Say what?

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