English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

If it has tight hooks into the internals of the browser, it can do more than a proxy can.

5:50 PM

Try it.

Please tell me it isn’t written in Javascript. :(

No idea.

I don’t know “plugins” work.

I may mean something deeper than is readily apparent in that statement.

I mean, I wonder how they are programmed.

addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/adblock-plus/?src=ss

I have no idea. It probably depends on the browser.

That is the problem, and why they probably work on a single browser only.

But as I said, I don’t know.

And thank you for the link.

I think I have Firefox installed here, actually.

One of the problems is that all your shared state/cookies/history may not transfer between browsers. Usually doesn’t, actually.

5:53 PM

Yes.

Although perhaps there are way to share those, have you looked into it?

Did you see what I wrote about Dutch cognates?

2 hours ago, by tchrist

Interesting, for rams and ewes, German just says Männchen und Weibchen, while Dutch appears to have actual cognates: “Rammen zijn groter dan ooien. De ram heeft een lichaamslengte van 160 tot 185 centimeter, een schouderhoogte van 90 tot 105 centimeter, . . .”

Using some add-ons, no doubt.

@tchrist That is correct.

How do you know German has no word for ram and ooi?

I don’t.

I mean, most Dutchmen wouldn't know these words.

I just looked at the comparative text.

5:55 PM

They just call them sheep.

Really?

Well, yes.

Yes.

Agriculture is tiny.

Ram is a pretty common word, but ewe is known only because of its homophony.

Ram is more common than ooi, yes.

But still.

Can you tell me the IPA for the second of those?

Or rather, would you please?

5:56 PM

A bok is still better known than a ram (bok = male goat). I wouldn't what a female goat is, perhaps also anooi?

@tchrist /o:j/

Something like that.

That’s what I was wondering.

Not sure about the exact o.

Whether the double-o made a long-o.

It always does.

But it is not the same vowel as the short o.

It changes both in quality and in quantity.

You don't have our long o.

I am not surprised. You want it to change in more than one aspect.

5:58 PM

I do not necessarily want it.

Because of the duration?

I don't know why it works the way it does.

Is your "short o" more like the o in any English word that you know of?

But Dutch doesn't use any pair of vowels distinctively which only differ in quantity.

@tchrist It is more or less the same as your short o.

That is what I was wondering, whether length was phonemic.

The short o of cloth?

5:59 PM

Yes.

Our long o is like French au.

One must be careful with choosing a lexical set, because of how often Americans flatten to /a/.

Oh, I didn't mean American.

RP.

See, I would say that those are the same. The only difference between French au and an English “long o” is the glide at the end that English uses.

Sorry, "au" as letters, not IPA.

As in which word? Low sounds very different from l'eau.

Very different?

6:02 PM

In American, it is closer.

Hm.

Englishmen usually suck at French au.

One is /low/ and the other is /lo/.

That is not “very” different to a speaker for whom off-glides/diphthongization is not phonemic.

It is one of the challenges for English-speakers.

I would transcribe low as /ləʊ/, or /loʊ/ in American.

The French word sound unfinished.

You can do that, yes.

I do not really understand the IPA diphthong there, because schwa shouldn’t be stressed.

6:04 PM

I would transcribe l'eau as /lo/, I think?

Just a sec, lemme grab my IPA pad.

Stressed?

@Cerberus I don’t know about the length.

It doesn't have to be long, I guess.

I've been listening to audiobooks narrated by Englishmen lately, and one thing that strikes me is their pronunciation of shone. Have we had a question about that, can anyone remember?

6:06 PM

That is with a short o, not a long one, in British.

Tolkien has poetry which will not rhyme otherwise.

So do many others.

@Robusto As in shon?

Yes.

@Robusto I don't remember. Ask!

6:06 PM

Similar is scone, which has two pronunciations.

Yes, scon.

That one is famous.

It's halfway between shun and Shaun.

Look at the lexical sets for long o here.

And gone.

Rob, that vowel is /ɒ/.

6:08 PM

So the French transcribe eau as /o/, that makes sense.

Your gone and mine, yes, but often not so in those whose cot–caught merger is complete.

Thanks.

@Cerberus Of course. Why would it be other?

No reason.

If you look at the lexical set page I linked to, you will see that North America uses oʊ~o for long o.

6:10 PM

By the way, how common would you say this use of "other" is?

For example, in Coca Cola.

I usually avoid it, because I'm not sure.

I'll have to look when I'm not on my phone, which should be this evening.

It is unwise to write other for otherwise, I confess.

David Wallace

@tchrist Is that a rule?

6:11 PM

@tchrist Why?

@Cerberus Lest it confuse you. :)

I like it. It's just that I never see it.

Except with than... attached.

@tchrist It doth not!

OEDs

So how common would you say it is?

If you can't tell me, I shall have to ask a Question!

I can imagine using other in something like that capacity.

6:13 PM

Then we will just get dumb Google N-grams. :(

Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Oh my.

It may be archaic or obsolete.

Well, I’m old, so it’s ok.

B. absol., pron., or sb.
† 1. a. One of the two, the one; L. alter. Often followed by a genitive pl. (Cf. A. 1.) Obs.
C. 1200 Trin. Coll. Hom. 95 ― Two þeroffe ben swiche þat no man ne mai underfo him seluen to hele bute he haue here oðer on him.

I don’t think that is quite it, but it is closer.

"but he have other on him".

I would use it just out of pure cantankerousness.

But it is normal in I have no mouse other than this piece of crap.

> † b. Instead of ‘the other’ the simple other was formerly used after each, either, neither, whether (rarely after one, none). Obs. Hence the extant each other, and the obs. either other, as in they help each other, i.e. each [helps] the other: see each 5, either A. 2 d. For ‘each other’ Sc. also used each others, i.e. each the others, one another (of a number).

> 1657 Sparrow Bk. Com. Prayer 68 ― Priest and people interchangeably pray each for other.

> † c. The simple other was formerly used in the sense ‘each preceding one (in turn)’. thrice after other, thrice in succession. Obs. or dial. (Sc.)

> She peered around the corner, and it was no other than Mr Primrose!

1660 Sharrock Vegetables 17 ― The nature of young tulip roots is to runne down deeper into the ground, every year more then other.
A. 1694 Tillotson Serm. cx. (1742) VI. 1793 ― Controversy, which I am less fond of every day than other.

"other than" is different.

"Other than" is different than "than other". :)

6:17 PM

You did not use than other.

No, I did not.

I'm still looking for something closer to my use.

I therefore did not consider it.

I may have found it. . .

2. pronoun.

6. a. sing. = Another person; some one else; any one else. † (a).without qualifying word (now expressed by another). Obs.

> 1611 Bible 1 Cor. xi. 21 ― Euery one taketh before other, his owne supper.

No, more like this one:

There it is.

> 7. = Another thing; something else, anything else; no(n) other, nothing else. Obs. or arch.

6:19 PM

And there.

1690 Locke Govt. i. iv. §40 ― ’Tis impossible··to find any other but the setting of Mankind above the other Kinds of Creatures.
1755 Man No. 49. 2 ― This is no other than insulting a person.
1846 Trench Mirac. xxxii. (1862) 449 ― Peter was not likely to strike with other than a right good will.
1895 Westm. Gaz. 25 July 4/2 ― He thought he could not do other than send the two prisoners for trial.

Same diff, in any case.

Negation...other...than is still current.

Definitely not this one:

> 10. as sb. Sexual activity; sexual intercourse. Also occas., homosexual practices. slang.

Yeah I saw that one.

6:20 PM

> 1974 Spectator 22 June 764/2 ― I’ve got to be noticed by any guy who’s on the prowl away from home and looking for a bit of the other.

Weird.

Slang changes fast.

In Dutch we have "van de andere kant" = of the other side.

I think 6 or 7 fits.

Probably 7.

To the extent that 6 and 7 differ, which is subclear.

So you can't tell me whether this use is still at all used? I think not, because it immediately sounded archaic.

It is marked archaic or obsolete.

Yes, I can tell you.

It is clearly still used, in that I just used it.

And paid it no heed.

It’s clearly part of my natural language. I didn’t even realize it was extraordinary.

The sexual usage would be similar to strange, as in "looking for some strange."

Or queer.

6:24 PM

I have no earthly idea how to use ngrams on that.

Tell me true, does this sound archaic?

> 1685 R. Burton Eng. Emp. Amer. iv. 83 ― The Indians··thinking no other but I had saved the Indian’s life.

Or this:

> 1846 Trench Mirac. xxxii. (1862) 449 ― Peter was not likely to strike with other than a right good will.

It sounds like something Cooper might write.

Leatherstocking Tales Cooper?

The bit about the Indians, that is.

Right.

No other than: normal. No other but: slightly archaic.

6:28 PM

What of the 1846 quote? Is that smooth to your ear?

Not exactly.

Lucetta:
"I have no other but a woman's reason:
I think him so, because I think him so."
The Two Gentlemen of Verona (I, ii, 23-24)

I think perhaps the negation is too far away from other in the 1846 quotation.

@tchrist This sounds smooth.

HERMIONE
Since what I am to say must be but that
Which contradicts my accusation and
The testimony on my part no other
But what comes from myself, it shall scarce boot me

Winter’s Tale

No other works all right in any context. No...other is more difficult.

6:30 PM

I wish I could think of some better things to search for.

You can't.

I care no more for than I do for heaven,
So I were not his sister: Can't no other,
But, I your daughter, he must be my brother?

All’s Well That Ends Well

Ooh ooh!!!

For what?

Here.

> Hence in Shakespeare the predicative use of no other . . . but: Hamlet, I, 1, 108: "I think it be no other but e'en so". AWs Well, IV, 3, 225 : " The duke knows him for no other but a poor officer of mine". Macb. III, 4, 97: " 'Tis no other" . — Carlyle ...

"I care no more for [?] than I do for heaven"

6:34 PM

They’re talking about Shakespeare’s use of "no other".

1

@tchrist What about it? No other is still current.

Matt Эллен

he might be a trouble maker, or just a bit new

> Since male identity in the symbolic order depends on female otherness, a female must be other.

That's philosophical lingo (probably in part based on German).

Existentialism.

Sartre, Arendt, those people.

Or French, l'autre.

In other words, completely other than your other.

user19161

6:44 PM

I finally got a phone with a camera, but can't figure out how to use it yet.

Yay!

Does it have a camera button?

Press it.

Press it hard.

user19161

When I finally took a photo with it, I could not figure out how to transfer it to my desktop even with the USB cable.

Some camera buttons can be pressed in two ways.

Ah.

Can you see the folders located on the "hard drive" of the phone if you plug it in, on your PC?

user19161

Perhaps it works with Windows but not Linux.

Then it's time to install Windows.

user19161

6:45 PM

@Cerberus Well, there is no option to transfer anything to the computer.

Yes, or no?

user19161

So, I might switch back to my old phone!

> du Lake, for he slew my brother, Sir Carados, at the dolorous tower, that was one of the best knights alive; and therefore him I except of all knights, for may I once meet with him, the one of us shall make an end of other, I make mine avow.

That must have been edited?

The spelling seems much newer than the grammar.