English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@IsaacMoses Aren't you confusing Jews with (a certain sect of) orthodox Jews? Papers here said there was a definite hierarchy involved. They probably represent a small minority of Chassidim, though I don't know the exact sect.

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs Some of it. Some of it is just straight fiction.

Cerberus

Hi!

Kitḫ

12:53 AM

Ohai.

@JSBᾶngs I will bookmark it. Thanks.

JSBᾶngs

it costs money ($50/yr), but it's worth it. and it has a very, very impressive list of alumni

the front page lists recent books and awards written by people from the workshop

Kitḫ

Well, I'd be surprised if I could find good reviewers for free.

Cerberus

Hmm I've always wanted to write SF or Fantasy too. Never tried it, though.

I would like the worlds and sociology of Vance, the plotting of Dune, and perhaps the characters from Orson Scott Card's works.

Kitḫ

I have newfound respect for you, Cerb.

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus i'll see if i can cook that up for you

Cerberus

12:58 AM

Even the best SF/Fantasy doesn't seem to rise to the highest echelons of real literature, somehow, with a few exceptions.

@JSBᾶngs Yay!!

@Kitḫ You like them too?

Kitḫ

Have you read Stephen R. Donaldson's Gap series?

@Cerberus Yes.

Cerberus

Hmm nope. I have several huge hiatus.

JSBᾶngs

i haven't read any donaldson. nor any vance

Cerberus

No Vance!?

JSBᾶngs

but Dune and OSC i know very well

Cerberus

12:59 AM

But he is the master!

Though his plots are often thin.

Not always, though.

JSBᾶngs

Ender's Game is one of my favorites, just like it's everyone' favorite

Cerberus

I recommend The Last Castle as a starter.

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs Yeah, it was that good.

Cerberus

The planet where everybody had OCD was good too. Which one was that again?

JSBᾶngs

@Kitḫ unfortunately his more recent work has mostly involved him beating that dead horse

Kitḫ

1:00 AM

I think if you like Orson Scott Card, you would like Donaldson. At least his sci-fi stuff.

Cerberus

I think I made Mahnax download it, actually.

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus crap, now i can't remember either

Ender's Game, Speaker For the Dead, ________, and Children of the Mind

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs Thankfully, I haven't read anything recent.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ OK, what are the major overlapping characteristics?

JSBᾶngs

@Cerb Xenocide

Cerberus

1:01 AM

Oh, yes.

But I think Children of the Mind is the one with the OCD Asians.

Oh, and the Asian philosopher!

Kitḫ

An increasingly complex plot. A well-considered and truly alien species.

Cerberus

Yes.

The guy himself is nuts, though, or so I heard.

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus nope, that's Xenocide. Children of the Mind is the really bad 4th book in the series with the aliens that communicate via DNA

Cerberus

As are many great artists.

@JSBᾶngs Huh, hmm...I actually have CotM on my hard drive.

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus he's mostly just mormon, which to a lot of people equals "nuts"

Cerberus

1:03 AM

But then perhaps I haven't read it.

@JSBᾶngs Ahh yes, that was it.

I'm not complaining!

Kitḫ

It's epic. Five books, and the plot oscillates harmoniously between interpersonal relationships and galactic power struggles.

JSBᾶngs

@Kitḫ which series is this?

Kitḫ

Donaldson's gap series.

Cerberus

Ah!

Sounds great.

Kitḫ

I can't believe how much you guys wrote while I was writing that one sentence.

Cerberus

1:04 AM

I must try it.

Aww you a bit retarded?

Kitḫ

If you don't like the first book, keep going.

Cerberus

SOK.

JSBᾶngs

@Kit i'll give it a shot.

Kitḫ

If you don't like it by the second book, put it down.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Haha, wait, is his first book his worst?

I'm currently struggling through Der Prozeß.

Kitḫ

1:05 AM

The first book in the series is the shortest, and I think just an idea he explored.

You don't get into the real story until after The Real Story.

Cerberus

Oh, and is it cynical, like Vance?

Kitḫ

Although it does a pretty good job at setting up the most central characters.

Cerberus

(^An excuse to mention Vance again.)

Kitḫ

Cynical? No. Not really.

Cerberus

OH Ok.

Kitḫ

1:06 AM

The characters are unlikable.

Cerberus

Well, that's OK.

OSC isn't cynical either.

Kitḫ

The bad guy is a bastard. The good guy is a prick. The female lead is whiny.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Hmm...and it still works?

A prick in a sympathetic sense?

Like me?

Kitḫ

No. I really like it when he dies.

Oop! Spoiler!

But I'm not telling you when or how.

Cerberus

Ohhh...

Kitḫ

1:08 AM

Besides, the good guy in the first book turns out not to be a really major character.

Cerberus

Then isn't there some party in the book one sympathizes with?

Kitḫ

Eventually. But not in the first book.

By the end of the series, I had developed Stockholm syndrome for Angus, the awful, abusive rapist.

JSBᾶngs

@Kit you're making this sound better and better /irony

Cerberus

@Kitḫ That's lovely.

Kitḫ

And Morn didn't seem so whiny and pathetic. She finally grew a pair.

Cerberus

1:11 AM

Of titties?

Or brains?

Kitḫ

> Donaldson explains one of the intents in writing this first book, which was originally to be only a stand alone novella, was to present the three classic archetypes of victim, villain & hero and then have them exchange roles.

@Cerberus Of testicles. Come on, man, stay with me.

Cerberus

Oops of course, haha.

I participated in recommendation chat once at Scifi.se.

Kitḫ

Huh?

Cerberus

They gave me some tips, but I can't find where I wrote them down.

Kitḫ

Hahaha.

Cerberus

1:13 AM

Maybe Donaldson was amongst those.

Kitḫ

Why don't you check the transcript?

Cerberus

Sounds familiar.

Kitḫ

ROFL

Cerberus

Yeah I could do that, but the search function is so awful, I never find anything.

JSBᾶngs

have to go take care of children now

Cerberus

1:14 AM

Lemme try.

JSBᾶngs

children! so time-consuming

Cerberus

Bai!

Kitḫ

@JSBᾶngs Bye!

Please read my new blog post!

Cerberus

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever is a trilogy of fantasy novels by Stephen R. Donaldson. It was followed by The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, also a trilogy, and The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, a planned tetralogy. Thomas Covenant, an embittered and cynical writer, afflicted with leprosy and shunned by society, is fated to become the heroic savior of The Land, an alternate world. In six novels published between 1977 and 1983, he struggles against the satanic Lord Foul, "The Despiser", who intends to escape the bondage of the physical universe and wreak reve...

This was recommended to me.

Kitḫ

That's good, for fantasy.

Cerberus

1:17 AM

Can you see if you get any results if you search for things said by Cerberus in the Scifi room? chat.stackexchange.com/search?q=&user=cerberus&room=198

I get nothing, as always. Man, this site works so well, but the search function is godawful.

@Kitḫ Ahh wait, so it was the same name! I copied that from the transcript.

Good.

Wait I got it.

Kitḫ

in Mos Eisley, Jul 27 '11 at 19:32, by Cerberus

Wow, three recommendations in such a short time, excellent.

Cerberus

I just pressed enter immediately, but apparently I need to wait for my name to turn into a number(!), then search; and, if I press enter too quickly, I get a page with no results, no indication that I've done anything wrong. Stupid!

@Kitḫ Thankies!

Kitḫ

Welcome.

It helps to understand how search functions work.

I think.

Cerberus

How? I type my name in a box, don't see anything special, press enter, and nothing happens?

That is just a terrible interface.

Kitḫ

Slow computer?

Try using the tab key to move between boxes.

Cerberus

1:25 AM

I'm on XP!

Kitḫ

What do I know? Anyway, it works for me.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ I needed only one box, and I was already using the mouse right before that, so no point in switching to keyboard.

Kitḫ

I understand, but it probably posts back when you move off the textbox.

Cerberus

Perhaps you are more patient.

I just need to wait for half a second, I know that now; but there's no way I could have thought of that.

Kitḫ

No, I think you actually need to move the focus. Or select one of the items in the list.

Cerberus

1:28 AM

Which list?

Kitḫ

The autocomplete list that they give you when you start typing a name.

Cerberus

Right, but that one is too slow. Besides, I'm looking at the keyboard until after I press enter (doesn't everybody search that way in any search engine?). I wouldn't even notice the list if I were typing more slowly.

Kitḫ

Wait. You disable javascript, don't you?

No wonder you have trouble with the search page.

Cerberus

Not on that site.

I have a huge whitelist.

Kitḫ

Oh OK.

Cerberus

1:32 AM

Whenever something doesn't work I automatically do my mouse gesture down-up to toggle JS.

Or looked at the icon at the bottom of the screen, but the gesture is quicker, because I don't need to look at it at all.

Kitḫ

And here I was thinking that Vit aspired to be a cyborg.

Turns out it was you.

Cerberus

Wait are gestures cyborgish now?

Hey I have a question.

How come people, including dogs, often have several version of .Net installed at once?

Is that necessary?

Why doesn't a newer version replace an older one?

Kitḫ

Uh.

As I recollect, they are actually separate libraries of functions.

Cerberus

Really!

Kitḫ

So they add to each other.

I think. It was something like that.

Cerberus

1:38 AM

So you might need all of them?

Kitḫ

Usually you don't.

Cerberus

Then why aren't they bundled into one big version?

Hmm...

User talk:Cerberus™

-- 05:46, 23 January 2006 (UTC) VWN en WCN Beste allemaal Al enige tijd is er een Nederlandstalig chapter in oprichting, te vinden op http://nl.wikimedia.org . Dit wordt de Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland (VWN). Je kunt je interesse om lid te worden van deze vereniging [http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/ledenlijst hier] aangeven. Deze vereniging gaat eind augustus/begin september een [http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Conferentie_Nederland Wikimedia Conferentie in Nederland] (WCN) houden, volgend op Wikimania in Boston, gedeeltelijk erop inspelend middels een aantal discussiegroepen. Om ...

Would you look at this!

Kitḫ

@Cerberus You know, I don't know. That might all be crazy talk. I can't remember.

Cerberus

A Jewish conspiracy, perhaps.

Kitḫ

Hey, look! @aedia sent you a kitten!

@Cerberus What?

Cerberus

1:43 AM

Yesh she did!

@Kitḫ The crazy talk, the hidden bundling...

It's always safe to assume a conspiracy.

Kitḫ

But why the Jews?

Cerberus

Well, it could be they?

Why not?

Kitḫ

Crazy talk? Hidden bundling? Sounds way more Montana than Jewish.

Cerberus

Hehe.

But people from Montana can't travel.

They're bound to the village they grew up in.

Aren't they?

It needs to be an global network, like Jews, Muslims, or Gays. Or cats, possibly.

Or perhaps another minority, like women or Asians.

I mean err, the penily or eye-lid-wrinkledly challenged.

tweakers.net/pricewatch/cat/496/…

Which laptop would you choose?

Kitḫ

Damn it. I was going to post a video clip that would explain it all, but I can't find it.

Cerberus

1:53 AM

The cheaper the better, though € 40 more or less isn't a big deal.

@Kitḫ Looking for ward to it!

Kitḫ

@Cerberus You want a netbook?

I love my Samsung.

Cerberus

It is a present.

Kitḫ

Although I hardly use it now.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Kitḫ

Well, I have my work laptop.

It's a Samsung N150.

The netbook, I mean. My work laptop is much sexier.

Cerberus

1:56 AM

Looks nice, but it is no longer available.

My friend wants a screen around 12" or 13".

Kitḫ

Of course not. I bought it two years ago, I think.

Cerberus

Yeah. Don't know why I mentioned that.

Kitḫ

I hope you are getting something good for this present...

So a laptop or a netbook?

Cerberus

Ehh what's the difference?

To me, they're all laptops.

Kitḫ

Netbooks are made for lightweight use. Word processing, email, surfing the net.

Not really for streaming video or skyping, although you can.

Modern ones might be able to do that without any issue.

Cerberus

1:59 AM

So what's the exact definition?

Kitḫ

A netbook has a netbook processor in it.

An Atom usually.

Cerberus

And how is that different from a different processor?

Eeek!

Now that's a nice pleonasm.

Kitḫ

They use less power.

Cerberus

May I be frank?

Kitḫ

Sure, Frank. Whatever you want.

Cerberus

2:02 AM

Those differences sound a bit vague. Only the CPU technology is exact; but then that is a bit arcane, and not obvious to users.

Kitḫ

Netbooks are smaller and designed to be lightweight, very portable, and consume less power so have a long battery life.

Cerberus

So why not call a netbook just a small laptop? Using a different word altogether suggests that it is an entirely different thing.

Kitḫ

It is different.

I have both.

The netbook is far more useful for carrying around and taking notes.

It is about the size of a book and weighs about the same.

The battery lasts around ten hours.

Cerberus

Well, OK. In that case, it doesn't matter which it is, as long as it is 12–13".

Kitḫ

sighs

Cerberus

2:04 AM

I don't know what that counts as.

Kitḫ

Alright.

Cerberus

Do shops in America always clearly make the distinction?

They don't here.

So I can't tell from their website.

Kitḫ

I'd say maybe the Asus Eee 1215B or the Samsung Chromebook, or the Thinkpad.

In that order.

Cerberus

Oh! Thanks!

Lemme examine those.

What were your main criteria?

Oh, by the way, do they all have multi-touch pads (I think so?)?

Kitḫ

►

This isn't the one I was looking for, but I thought you'd find it funny.

JSBᾶngs

2:10 AM

you kids still at it?

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Probably. I didn't check.

JSBᾶngs

my children are now in bed

and i'm prepping for a Magic draft

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Reviews, also Asus is a good inexpensive brand, and it has a good amount of RAM.

►

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Haha, great!

Kitḫ

OK. Anyway. Now I'm going to watch Mr. Show with my husband, because fuck that shit is funny.

Cerberus

2:19 AM

@Kitḫ OK thanks for your advice!

Kitḫ

@Cerberus The other one was the one I was thinking of.

Cerberus

Perhaps it will be the Asus, then.

Kitḫ

Also, the "Independent Nations Games" is the end of that episode.

Cerberus

Oh! I'll watch it next.

By the way, I think my other friend has exactly that Asus.

Kitḫ

"Tom was just shooting them and they shot Tom! Why, why?"

Cerberus

2:20 AM

Haha.

Kitḫ

OK, really, gotta go. Mr. Show is awesomely funny. Watch it!

Bye!

Cerberus

Bye!

@Kitḫ Haha, "they shot Tom" is brilliant.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:54 AM

@JSBᾶngs It's ok if you think I'm inferior. My smug sense of superiority is unassailable.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 at least we have that in common

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

We have lots in common, actually. But will it be enough when one of us turns evil, and it's up to the other to stop him?

Cerberus

no comment

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus hey now, you can't just jump in and "no comment" us. That means you HAVE a comment

Robusto

// no comment

/* no comment */

# no comment

`no comment

JSBᾶngs

3:00 AM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 i'm already evil. that should make things simpler for you.

@Robusto % no comment

REM no comment

Robusto

Ah, was trying to remember REM. HAHA.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs uhoh. me too!

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 THEN WE CAN JOIN FORCES AND RULE THE WORLD

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBᾶngs I'll take the left half, you can have the right half.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 sweet. someone bring me a globe and a magic marker.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:02 AM

Or I'll take the top half, you can have the bottom half

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 whistles

JSBᾶngs

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

-- no comment

Cerberus

So I have two laptops that might be an option to give to a friend:

tweakers.net/pricewatch/291614/…

JSBᾶngs

::: no comment

Cerberus

3:03 AM

tweakers.net/pricewatch/293328/…

What do you think?

JSBᾶngs

i'd go with the asus, just because i like asus

Cerberus

All she said she wants is 13", but 12" is acceptable as well.

JSBᾶngs

i didn't look closely at either of their specs

Cerberus

Right.

Noted.

Robusto

function noComment() {
// noop
}

Cerberus

3:04 AM

The Asus is also cheaper.

Robusto

function noComment() {
return null;
}

Cerberus

And lighter.

JSBᾶngs

; no comment
nop
ret

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Packard Bell is still a brand over there? Over here, they were widely despised as producing crap, and went out of business

Cerberus

Aww.

I guess that counts as an opinion.

But they all use the same components from reliable manufacturers, don't they?

Do you really think PB is unreliable?

Robusto

3:07 AM

public void noComment() {
// noop
}

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus not exactly. They will be ordering their motherboards custom designed, using standard chipsets. There is lots of room for QA problems

I don't know what Packard Bell must be like over there. But when they were hear, I wouldn't touch them with a 40-foot pole.

JSBᾶngs

here's something interesting about Arabic and the Dutch:

►

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, spec-wise, the asus looks really nice

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm OK. Basically the only advantage of the PB here is its larger screen.

So I guess it's gong to be the Asus, then.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yeah but the resolution is the same, so it doesn't fit more information, just shows it larger.

Robusto

3:09 AM

@Cerberus Wait! Will it run XP?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you can attach more kinds of monitors to the asus.

So what is the literal translation of Besturingssysteem

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah I know, it hardly makes a difference. It's just that my friend has this size in her mind.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Besturing = operation, systeem = haberdasher.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, showing it larger is useful for people with worse eyesight. My parents would be more interested in larger font

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, and it could be nice if you're watching a film with friends. But then why not use your desktop.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, that extra inch won't make much difference for film

Cerberus

3:12 AM

@Robusto Oh shi...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

it's still a pretty small notebook

Cerberus

Yeah, well, an inch is an inch.

By the way do you happen to see another interesting choice in this list?:

tweakers.net/pricewatch/cat/496/…

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But you can attach a normal computer monitor with easily available cables to the asus; for the PB you need an HDMI cable it seems, I know I don't have spare HDMI cables lying around

Cerberus

Hmm OK. Well, she probably won't be using it for that at any place where there's a desktop or bigger screen available.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I'm not really up-to-date on notebooks, all I can really do is compare specs

Cerberus

3:13 AM

OK.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

When I bought my notebook I based my purchase solely on screen size: I insisted on over 1000 lines of resolution. That eliminated pretty much all the cheap notebooks; I bought the cheapest one that had that kind of screen. It didn't even last 3 years before dying. Just before it died, I'd been shopping for notebooks for a neighbour's friend and seen that the same notebook (well, different notebook, newer, same specs essentially) was now 1/3 the price I paid.

So now I recommend getting something cheap, because for many people it's not worth trying to fuss over it, get a cheap one and replace it later.

Cerberus

I couldn't agree more.

And if you sell early, you can still get a decent price second hand.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So that leads me to conclude "asus" from your original two

Cerberus

OK Kit picked that one too.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I almost never consider the secondary market. But then again I can always find a use for an old computer :)

Cerberus

3:18 AM

paradigit.nl/Paradigit/product/ZPR_01LAP/01_LAPTOPS/…

Here it is again, with its more expensive brother.

But the cheaper one even has better specs in some respects.

Why on earth buy the other one?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

if you're going to get a 15" notebook, why on earth get such a crappy resolution!? I swear, notebook screens have not advanced as much as they should have in the last two decades.

Cerberus

Oh, wait, the other one is all sold out.

So it's probably quite old.

So the Asus it's going to be, then!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

When I was selling computers in 1999 a high-end monitor did 1600x1200 and notebooks did 1280x1024. Then, for some inexplicable reason, monitor sizes started falling, and it was like 8 years before screens reached 1680x1050

Cerberus

Huh that's weird. Flatscreens all?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

which is, I think, the minimum resolution for a screen IMO. I prefer 1920x1080 (HDTV resolution) or 1920x1200

Cerberus

3:21 AM

Or is it some switch from LCD to TFT?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus no, 1600x1200 was CRT

Cerberus

Ahh.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

but the switch to LCD (and all the various LCD generations) set the DPI back a decade.

and even now they make notebooks with screens so small they're barely bigger than my phone.

brb

Cerberus

Yeah, silly.

JSBᾶngs

3:40 AM

0

Q: "The messenger" vs "A messenger"

Can someone explain the difference between 'the messenger' and 'a messenger'? Please don't just explain that one is a definite and another is an indefinite article. I have seen people using both where differentiating one from the other seems difficult to understand. For example: I am just the...

articles

^ overly broad, perhaps NARQ

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Have we addressed "a/an vs the" on the site? It's fairly basic but I think it must be somewhere

Cerberus

Countless times.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Can we call that a dupe of this one:

9

Q: Are there any simple rules for article usage ("a" vs "the" vs none)

I can't for the life of me figure out where to use a and where to use the (and where there is no article at all). Is there a simple rule of thumb to memorize? (The standard one if a person knows which item you are talking about then use "the" doesn't clear things up for me as I have no idea whe...

grammar articles

Cerberus

tweakers.net/pricewatch/cat/496/…

Do you have any idea of what the letters and numbers after the colour (siv=silver, blk=black) mean?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:04 AM

@Cerberus don't know what they mean. But I do see that those notebooks don't all have the same CPU, for one thing.

Cerberus

Yeah, I noticed that too.

Strange.

Is the AMD Fusion E 450 good?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

no idea

so the 1215B has many different sub-models, the 1215N appears to have only different colours (from the asus website)

Cerberus

Oh, right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

sigh, there are 97 updated packages for me to download in Fedora 16

whoops, refreshed, now 108 updates

Cerberus

Yikes.

Does that all happen automatically and fast?

Like Autopatcher, as opposed to Windows Update?

(Hehe.)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:23 AM

I've never used autopatcher. But since I posted my message about 108 updates, I clicked "apply" and now the updates are downloaded and installed. I don't even have to reboot right away, but of course some of the updates to require a reboot to take effect.

Cerberus

OK, as long as it all happens unattended, it's fine.

Theta30

4:39 AM

@matt for some reason removing wikimedia from whitelist didn't block the javascript. But then I made the wikimedia untrusted from Noscript and that worked.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

well, time for bed. ttyl

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