English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

7:01 PM

Personally, I like developing on ASP.NET, but I remember reinventing the wheel a lot last time I did, since the wheels Microsoft supplies tend to be rather specific.

Kit

@ArdaXi Yes, that seems to be the problem I continue to have.

I wouldn't mind learning something new, like C# or php.

Arda Xi

@Kit It's usually the case with any proprietary technology.

C# is just VB.NET with an (in my opinion) nicer, and more polished syntax.

The libraries are all the same.

Kit

Well, and I am particularly volatile today. I hope I have offered you no offense; you don't know me well enough to not take me seriously.

Arda Xi

@Kit Oh, I'm far worse. Just ask the nice guys over on The Bridge

Mr. Disappointment

@ArdaXi you could compare any language in that way.

@Kit You're still not sorted?

Arda Xi

7:05 PM

@MrDisappointment What I mean is that developing in C# and VB.NET will provide the exact same code in a different syntax.

Kit

@MrDisappointment No. Setting the TabIndex just makes it worse.

Arda Xi

So there's no real difference other than syntax.

Mr. Disappointment

@ArdaXi Languages and frameworks are completely different things.

Kit

I'm just going to do it by hand-ish.

Mr. Disappointment

@ArdaXi Half true.

Arda Xi

7:06 PM

@MrDisappointment Both C# and VB.NET chiefly run on .NET.

@MrDisappointment Actually, completely true. They produce the same CIL.

By that virtue, I can convert any C# code to VB.NET with a compiler and Reflector.

Mr. Disappointment

Indeed they do, and I believe the libraries were written primarily in C#. But your own libraries are there own output.

Arda Xi

@MrDisappointment True, but anything written in any .NET language is inter-operable.

Mr. Disappointment

They can differ. Remember, there are two teams: the VB.NET compiler team, and the C# compiler team.

@Kit How did it get worse?

Arda Xi

@MrDisappointment Yes, but they both compile into CIL.

CIL can be decompiled into C# and VB.NET with relative ease.

Mr. Disappointment

@ArdaXi Precisely, but not necessarily the same CIL (see: more than one way to skin a cat.)

Arda Xi

7:09 PM

@MrDisappointment True, but it's going to be very similar.

Kit

@MrDisappointment The order was correct, but came after the auto tab order.

Mr. Disappointment

And perfect decompilation is not relatively easy - generics are a bitch, and many decompilations, even with Reflector, won't build.

Arda Xi

Seeing as CIL is less expressive than C# or VB.NET is.

There are many ways with C# or VB.NET to produce the same CIL, but the other way around not so much.

Mr. Disappointment

@Kit Maybe when I'm on a dev machine I can try and work out a solution for you.

@ArdaXi Just because there is less variety, doesn't mean the same code, you can just have more of the same code, making it different (I remember this was one of the 'problems' with the VB.NET compiler, producding unneeded assignments and whatnot.)

Kit

@MrDisappointment That's thoughtful and appreciated, but unnecessary.

Arda Xi

7:11 PM

@MrDisappointment Fair enough.

Mr. Disappointment

@Kit No worries.

Kit

@MrDisappointment I'm just bridging it with my little dictionary, but it's kind of like putting a band-aid on it.

Still better than duct-tape though.

Mr. Disappointment

Also, probably worth noting, was the severe performance issues in VB.NET's version of Linq (compared to C#), though I think this is nigh on 'fixed' now.

Kit

@MrDisappointment I've never really understood what LINQ is.

Arda Xi

Well, VB.NET has always had less priority than C# I believe. And rightly so, of course.

@Kit Sort of like SQL on steroids.

Mr. Disappointment

7:15 PM

To be sure, C# was created for the framework, with the framework in mind.

Arda Xi

@MrDisappointment When C# was created they called it Java.

All Microsoft did was slap the .NET framework on.

Rhodri

@Kit Heresy! Nothing is better than duct tape!

Mr. Disappointment

Yeah, Language Integrated Query: SQL queries inline with code, used to be much more tedious beforehand.

Arda Xi

@MrDisappointment Not just SQL though. LINQ to Objects is also very powerful.

Kit

@MrDisappointment Huh. Maybe I should look at it. I have always just packaged things into parameterized stored procedures.

Mr. Disappointment

7:17 PM

@ArdaXi Well, although Anders fathered them both, I believe he also had experience (along with many others) of other previous languages, and they reaped the benefits of the many.

@ArdaXi Quite correct.

Arda Xi

The beauty of LINQ is that you can do something like this

from c in SomeCollection
               where c.SomeProperty < someValue * 2
               select new {c.SomeProperty, c.OtherProperty};

And if SomeCollection is bound to a SQL database, the query is converted into SQL and executed.

But if it's just a regular in-memory object, it will work exactly the same.

Kit

And they've actually structured it sensibly. Interesting.

So I could use this with something like a Controls collection?

Any kind of collection?

What about DataTables/Sets/etc.?

simchona

morning

Arda Xi

So long as it implements IEnumerable or IQueryable.

Mr. Disappointment

Mostly, if the type implements a certain collection base, or interface (I don't remember exactly which, but something like IEnumerable.)

Arda Xi

7:22 PM

@MrDisappointment That's the one.

I'm fairly sure every kind of collection implements it.

Failing that you could always write a wrapper.

Mr. Disappointment

Hm, not quite, there are some legacy collections that carried through from 1.1.

Arda Xi

@MrDisappointment You probably shouldn't be using those in the first place.

Robusto

0

Q: Why do some people say "the reason is is that," with "is" twice in a row?

Anybody have any conjectures as to why this quirk is so common? For an example, see this TED talk by Kevin Slavin: http://www.ted.com/talks/kevin_slavin_how_algorithms_shape_our_world.html

I thought there was nohat answer to this a while back.

simchona

@Robusto Because...people aren't perfect

Arda Xi

@simchona Are... are you sure?

simchona

7:26 PM

@ArdaXi I...I think so

Arda Xi

@simchona But... but... that means I'm not perfect.

Kit

@Robusto I saw one for repeated words, but I don't remember if it was nohat or not.

Arda Xi

Oh, no, I get it. I'm not people.

simchona

@ArdaXi You're more than people

Arda Xi

@simchona :D

Mr. Disappointment

7:28 PM

@ArdaXi I mean, they are in the latest framework and not obsolete, but have subtle differences - I recall reading something recently about this, I'll see if I can find it; upon thinking about it, though, I think I might have had subtleties in mind regarding implementing interfaces for generic collections, and not too related to this at all.

Robusto

Stupid OS X Lion has this thing for making supererogatory corrections in my typing. I type "nohat" and it substitutes "no hat" without telling me. You know, if I'm going to have mistakes in my typing, I'd prefer that I make them myself.

Arda Xi

@MrDisappointment Why are we discussing design philosophy in this room anyway?

Mr. Disappointment

Blame @Kit!

Kit

4

Q: How to properly write sentence with double words

I commonly come across sentences where I have to write the same word twice such as, This is what I've been looking for for a long time. and in these cases I just try to rewrite the sentence to avoid this. Is it OK to write sentences like these? How do you properly write these types of se...

word-order complex-sentences

This was the one I was thinking of.

Mr. Disappointment

And howdy, @Robusto.

Robusto

7:30 PM

Hullo.

Arda Xi

@Kit I've seen people fix this by using "This is what I've been looking for a long time."

Kit

@MrDisappointment Blame Canada!

@ArdaXi Yes, but it was the repeated word thing that I was thinking of.

Mr. Disappointment

Always, always boils down to the French.

Kit

So @MrD you'll be happy to know that I've got it knocked except that for some reason, it doesn't recognize "12" as an integer in just one of the six textboxes.

user19161

@MrDisappointment Right, the question on whether MA is March or May.

Mr. Disappointment

7:33 PM

@Kit That doesn't sound reasonable, not one bit.

@JasperLoy Right!

Kit

@MrDisappointment I agree. throws computer out window

Mr. Disappointment

@Kit Are you using the same validator on all six controls?

Kit

@MrDisappointment Yes.

Mr. Disappointment

You held on to the computer while it launched out of the window?

Nevermind that, glad you're not hurt...

simchona

will you guys get mad at me if, on the "refer to self in 3rd person" question, I wrote another answer even if it gives the same answer as another?

Mr. Disappointment

7:37 PM

The validation thing, though, quite bizarre, at face value.

@simchona YES!

user19161

@simchona As long as it is sufficiently different, or you posted around the same time, it is alright.

Mr. Disappointment

But I'm always kinda raving mad anyhoo.

simchona

@JasperLoy the first answer is like "it is this". I want to flesh it out...

Kit

@MrDisappointment I can't figure it out.

@simchona Flesh is good. Show us all the flesh you like.

Mr. Disappointment

@Kit Nobody can figure it out, I've been to the psychiatrist numerous times.

user19161

7:39 PM

Otherwise just leave a comment, or be flamed for plagiarism.

simchona

0

Q: Etymology and meaning of "discretionary"

I have this sentence: There is one other category: Discretionary calories, represented by the narrow tip of each colored band, including items such as candy, alcohol, or additional food from any other group. Could you explain me the etymology and meaning of discretionary to be able easily unde...

meaning etymology semantics

Mr. Disappointment

@Kit Oh, I see the message that was in response to..

Arda Xi

@MrDisappointment Me too!

user19161

@MrDisappointment I think shrinks know nothing, but I might be wrong.

Kit

@MrDisappointment Don't worry, I transubstantiated it.

user19161

7:41 PM

Nash took years of treatment, but he never got well. Eventually he had to sort it out himself.

Kit

Ah. There's your problem right there, you see. Object not set to an instance of an object. Yep. That'd do it.

@JasperLoy Schizophrenia is a little different than depression though.

user19161

@fallen >_>

Kit

Or most of the other garden-variety psychological...um, issues.

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy <_<

user19161

@Kit I have not taken any SSRIs my whole life, maybe I should start soon, my shrink friend told me to give it a shot.

FallenAngelEyes

7:44 PM

SSRIs suuuuck

Kit

@FallenAngelEyes Agreed.

@JasperLoy Depends on how bad off you really are.

Do you trust your shrink?

FallenAngelEyes

I hate brainchemistry altering medications. So hard to find something that works for you.

user19161

I think so too. To me, psychotherapy is an art, not a science, and pharmacotherapy is a scam. But that's just what I believe after reading all the stuff out there.

Kit

@FallenAngelEyes Yep, and SSRIs can really mess with you. You definitely should not take them without supervision.

simchona

Is the "discretionary" question general ref?

user19161

7:46 PM

@Kit I have not seen any shrink nor taken any meds my whole life, and I have had these issues for more than 10 years. The suffering that I have endured is probably a thousnad times more than the average man on the street.

Kit

That said, if you are seeing a shrink, and s/he recommends it, then I'd follow that advice.

FallenAngelEyes

@Kit Been on them for 10ish years now. :(

Kit

@simchona Meh. OP's asking for etymology as well. I'm on the fence.

simchona

@Kit Both are google searches...especially if he knows what "etymology" is

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes Does it help you?

Kit

7:48 PM

@simchona Yes, but a nice answer could relate the etymology to the meaning and describe the extent of use.

simchona

@Kit True...

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy That's a difficult question to answer.

Kit

@simchona Especially with a word like "discretion," which has a lot of nuance, I think.

FallenAngelEyes

It helps maintain my mood levels so I don't have the really low-lows, but it also "dampens" my emotions so I don't feel the high-highs as much either.

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes Considering the fact that you can't really compare.

Kit

7:50 PM

@JasperLoy You should talk to a good professional before you consider medication anyway.

FallenAngelEyes

But the same medication may work completely differently for you, so... yeah.

It's all a YMMV thing.

Kit

@FallenAngelEyes That's how I felt, and I hated it. It was very flat.

user19161

@Kit I am actually considering suicide, but don't worry Kit, I just don't have the courage to do it. Two of my friends have died from suicide.

FallenAngelEyes

@Kit I hate it too. I've accepted it for a long time because I despise changing meds. It's such a process, you know?

Kit

@FallenAngelEyes I empathize.

FallenAngelEyes

7:51 PM

But I'm currently working on getting back into therapy to potentially look at changing medication to something that doesn't make me feel as dead.

Kit

@JasperLoy Well, then you've got nothing to lose by consulting a shrink.

@FallenAngelEyes Depression? Anxiety? If you don't mind me asking.

user19161

@Kit Right, considering I have lost everything, almost. Not worked for 3 years, to shed more light, but I'll stop there.

FallenAngelEyes

@Kit Both, as well as bipolar issues, and other crap.

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes They usually come together, they are all related.

Kit

@FallenAngelEyes That's poopy. Bipolar is particularly sucky to handle.

user19161

7:55 PM

@Kit The weird thing is Nash himself considered bipolar=schiz. Maybe he equates the delusional states to those during the highs of bipolar.

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy Yeah, the whole co-morbid disorder thing

Kit

@JasperLoy Interesting.

user19161

If you guys see me on chat, it means I am still alive. Otherwise, hope that I have been reborn in Germany, with non-abusive parents.

Kit

@JasperLoy My hope is that you will realize your life is a journey, and there is so much more to see than what is already behind you.

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes I hope things get better for you, whatever that means. May you be fully cured soon.

Kit

7:59 PM

I hope you stay with us @Jasper, because I like you.

Grace Note

...oh my

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy Thanks, likewise. :) I hope the same for you. I have no hope for any sort of "cure," as I don't think that exists.

Just better knowledge to deal with and handle my issues.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…