English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

The thing is, if you eat at an arbitrary, small-town restaurant in France or Italy, the food will be fine; try the same in Holland or England, and you will regret it.

kiamlaluno

Actually, I could like better French cousine than French cuisine. ;-)

I think that is better to eat in a country what they usually prepare in that country.

I will never go in Germany, and eat spaghetti there.

Cerberus

Yeah... unless you're in a good, high-end restaurant, where their international cuisine will usually be fine.

kiamlaluno

11:23 PM

For my standards, that spaghetti would be too cooked.

Cerberus

Then you're not in a good enough restaurant!

I can assure you that good chefs even in Holland read Italian cookbooks.

kiamlaluno

To say it all, eating spaghetti in another country would sound like being too attached to Italian traditions.

When I go in a different country, I prefer to eat what they prepare. I cannot pretend all countries make spaghetti like we do in Italy.

Cerberus

I can understand that you might want to try something local, or at least different, when abroad; but in Holland you will hardly ever eat something local, because we just don't have much of a cuisine.

kiamlaluno

Then, it would be better if I would stay in Italy, if all I want to eat is spaghetti.

Cerberus

Traditional, good restaurants serve French cuisine here.

kiamlaluno

11:26 PM

Isn't Holland famous for Dutch cheeses?

Cerberus

Then we have a multitude of good foreign restaurants: Thai, Indian, Italian, Greek, Ethiopian...

Yes, we have good cheeses; northern Europe has some excellent products, but its cuisines are not nearly complete enough to compose a full, decent menu.

kiamlaluno

My mother has an old book that contains also Dutch recipes.

Cerberus

Really? What is in it? Stamppot?

kiamlaluno

It's a book about Italian recipes, but it contains a few pages for recipes from USA, China, Holland.

I see only: aringa, erweten, courtbouillon, hutspot.

It has only a page for foreign recipes.

Cerberus

Only hutspot sounds familiar.

Hutspot is a stamppot.

Oh, I think aringa is herring?

kiamlaluno

11:31 PM

I thought it was "hotspot" in Dutch. :-)

Cerberus

Nope!

More like hotch-potch.

kiamlaluno

Haring in't land, doktor aan de kant.

Cerberus

But pot = pot. Basically it is a pot with all sorts of mixed potatoes and vegetables. It is presumed to have been invented by the Spaniards during the siege of Leyden around 1580, when they just chucked into a pot whatever they could find.

@kiamlaluno What is that?

kiamlaluno

I thought aringa was a Dutch word.

It says it's a Dutch way of saying.

Cerberus

I know it only as a formula in palaeography.

kiamlaluno

11:34 PM

Where the herring enters, the doctor goes out.

I think that is the translation in English.

Cerberus

99.9 % of Dutchmen wouldn't know aringa. I didn't even know it was typically Dutch.

@kiamlaluno Yes, roughly... but what is it about?

kiamlaluno

The book translates it with dove entra l'aringa esce il medico. It's on the recipe book.

Cerberus

(My dictionary says aringa is simply Italian for herring, Dutch haring.)

kiamlaluno

Then they used the Italian word for the recipe title.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Erweten might be erwtensoep, a special kind of pea soup, which is actually very good, if prepared well.

kiamlaluno

11:37 PM

The recipe is easy: take a herring, cook it on the grill.

Cerberus

Greetings @Orb!

Huh!? We eat our herring raw!

kiamlaluno

Yes, it is with peas.

Cerberus

With raw onions, the herring.

OK.

Orbling

@Cerberus Good evening.

kiamlaluno

The other ingredients are pig feet, onions, bacon, and smoked salami.

Cerberus

11:38 PM

How art thou? We were discussing Dutch cuisine, which isn't much to look at. I suppose English cuisine doesn't fare much better.

@kiamlaluno Hmm that is unusual. Especially the pig feet and the salami.

Orbling

Some English cuisine looks quite wonderful, some of it looks like you ate it earlier.

RegDwight

@Orbling Wow, now look who's here.

Cerberus

I know!

kiamlaluno

There are also Russian recipes.

Cerberus

@Orbling Yeah you have a few good dishes... but I say we northern Europeans are far worse off than our Mediterranean cousins' cuisines!

Orbling

11:40 PM

@RegDwight Evening Mr Dwight.

RegDwight

Just where have you been hiding all this time.

Cerberus

Probably in an evil, outdated Medieval church that ought to be demolished.

Orbling

I disagree, generally the north Europeans have superior dishes, though the Mediterranean countries do have a few outstanding entries.

RegDwight

This chat makes me hungry.

Orbling

I only ever hide out in places of unspeakable evil as you know.

Cerberus

11:41 PM

Really? A surprising development!

RegDwight

@Orbling But that would be in this very room!

Cerberus

@RegDwight It always, always makes me hungry.

kiamlaluno

Tomorrow I will try again beer rice.

Cerberus

But how would you compose a full menu out of English dishes?

Orbling

I'm not sure this motley crew constitutes unspeakable evil, somewhere in the vicinity perhaps.

Cerberus

11:42 PM

Hey! growls

I do love me some fish and chips...

RegDwight

@Cerberus Here's your menu out of English dishes: porridge, porridge, porridge, ale.

Orbling

The thing about English food, is that, in the modern age, we don't tend to go in for multiple courses much.

kiamlaluno

English muffins!

Cerberus

@RegDwight Exactly! But Orbling won't budge...

@Orbling But if you're going to a restaurant?

Orbling

Two, as a rule, when you eat out it's always three, but the starter is sort of there for show.

Cerberus

11:43 PM

Well... no offense, but that doesn't sound like a very attractive cuisine!

Orbling

@Cerberus You don't eat English when you're out!

It's homely food.

kiamlaluno

Here comes the Dutch cheese.

Cerberus

Starters are so awesomely delicious. Italians having antipasto and pasta before the main course, that is so freaking fantastic!

Orbling

Do you know, I'm not sure I can think of a Dutch dish of the top of my head...

Cerberus

@Orbling Well ok! The same applies to Dutch cuisine.

kiamlaluno

11:44 PM

Hutspot.

Orbling

*off

Cerberus

Not surprising at all! Dutch cuisine is as ehh... limited as English cuisine.

Orbling

English cuisine is gigantic.

Cerberus

@Orbling Do you know you can edit chat lines?

Orbling

I've got a whole bookcase on the subject.

kiamlaluno

11:45 PM

Do I guess kaas means cheese?

Cerberus

Really?

@kiamlaluno Yes!

Orbling

@Cerberus Yes, but I am used to IM, where you can't.

RegDwight

@Cerberus He's been away for so long, he's forgotten.

Cerberus

Aww.

RegDwight

But of course he would never admit.

kiamlaluno

11:46 PM

It is close to Calabrian caso.

Orbling

It's a damn sight quicker to type a correction, than fiddle about editing.

Cerberus

If you press the up arrow in an empty text field, you can edit your last line.

Try it!

The up arrow on your keyboard.

Orbling

Oh yeah...

Cerberus

Spanish queso... right?

Orbling

Still a lot slower.

Cerberus

11:47 PM

But neater!

So what English dish would you recommend to a foreigner?

Orbling

Well, I would always edit an answer to correct such a thing. In chat, I believe in historic robustness over purity.

kiamlaluno

Mon chow, Edammer kaas, Limburgse kaas, Kernhemse kaas, Saint Paulin, Goudse kaas, Bocren kaas, and Leidse kaas.

Cerberus

It is no matter.

Orbling

Depends what sort of foreigner, people have very different exposures and expectations.

kiamlaluno

I hope I wrote them correctly.

Orbling

11:49 PM

Most people seem to expect English food to be unfit for dogs.

This is all the fault of the French!

Cerberus

I think it is monchou, and I don't think that's Dutch? And it is boerenkaas.

Oh, blame it on the frogs!

RegDwight

Fish and chips or no chips at all. Wimps and posers, leave the hall.

kiamlaluno

It seems Parmesan cheese, from the shape.

Orbling

Well, I'm not normally anti-French, but on this score, it is true. They have always used gastronomic superiority as a primary verbal attack.

Propaganda I say.

Cerberus

Okay, then grant me this: if you go to an English pub and order a simple menu, there is a significant chance that it will suck, as it is in Holland: not so in France or Italy!

kiamlaluno

11:50 PM

French recipes...

Orbling

Ah, that's got nothing to do with the recipes.

Cerberus

@Kiam: What is Parmesan?

Orbling

That's because English people no longer have any pride in anything they do.

Cerberus

I don't really know exactly what all those Dutch cheeses are... and boerenkaas is very varied.

kiamlaluno

Parmigiano-Reggiano

:For the artist see Parmigianino. Parmigiano-Reggiano () is a hard granular cheese, cooked but not pressed, named after the producing areas near Parma, Reggio Emilia, Modena, and Bologna (all in Emilia-Romagna), and Mantova (in Lombardia), Italy. Under Italian law only cheese produced in these provinces may be labelled "Parmigiano-Reggiano", while European law classifies the name as a protected designation of origin. It is informally known as the "king of cheese." Parmigiano is the Italian adjective for Parma. Reggiano is the Italian adjective for Reggio Emilia. Parmesan is the French-...

Cerberus

11:52 PM

Okay, well, I still think our southern neighbours have it easier!

Orbling

Ever had a Ploughman's Lunch?

That's very popular, not that I care for it, no fan of cheese.

Cerberus

@Kiam: Yes I know what that is! I just didn't know what you meant when you said "it seems Parmesan cheese".

No, what's that?

It sounds like Builder's Fish and Chips...

Oh, by the way, do you know Posh Nosh?

A parody on television chefs.

kiamlaluno

Oh, I mean the cheese starting with B. From the picture they show, it seems to have the same shape of Parmesan cheese.

Cerberus

Boerenkaas?

RegDwight

It's funny how when the French paid a visit to Britain, the Brits were very happy to adopt the French names for food, but not the food itself.

kiamlaluno

11:54 PM

Borky borky?

@Cerberus Yep.

Orbling

@RegDwight "paid a visit"? We tend to refer to that as "invaded".

kiamlaluno

Gigot de mouton.

Cerberus

Heh.

RegDwight

@Orbling See, that's another French word.

Orbling

@RegDwight Well our countries are very close, and have ruled parts of each other on and off for the last millennia.

Cerberus

11:55 PM

Boerenkaas is basically a very vague term, as I understand it; it is supposedly cheese that is made at a farmhouse, no factory; and the milk used is fresh, not pasteurised.

It is not at all like Parmesan.

If you ever come to Holland, buy some boeren extra belegen: that is the best cheese we have, for eating it on bread every day.

It should be about €15/kg in a decent cheese shop (don't buy it at a supermarket).

Orbling

belegen = mature?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Yep. That is what THE book says.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…