English Language Learners - 2014-10-29

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4:18 AM

1

A: "$25 more than" vs "$25 more than what"?

No, you are mistaken. It's perfectly correct for than to take a clause of this type, with an appropriately-placed "gap". For example: It's bigger than I expected it to be. Note the gap at the end, after "to be". (Cf. "to be big".) The meaning is "Its size is greater than the size I expected it...

The answer makes me think.

> [H]is clients were supposed to be paid $425 million - $25 million more than he'd written in the contract.

There is nothing special about the sentence. It's just a gap, and what would make it less native-like indeed.

> [H]is clients were supposed to be paid $425 million - $25 million more than he'd written ___ in the contract.

But it still makes me think... how far we can generalize it.

Looking around a little, I found this:

-2

Q: "More than (what) meets the eye"

Is it correct to say more than what meets the eye? More than meets the eye sounds incorrect, but I've seen a lot of people use it and that confuses me. What acts like an object to the phrase which otherwise seems incomplete.

grammar comparative relative-clause

> More than meets the eye.

This is also a gap.

> More than ___ meets the eye.

Now, let's try something possibly weird.

> As of the end of September, Facebook had 1.35 billion active users every month, 14% more than in 2013.

I think this ellipsis is huge.

> As of the end of September, Facebook had 1.35 billion active users every month, 14% more than (Facebook had had ___ active users every month) in 2013.

Can we write this?

> As of the end of September, Facebook had 1.35 billion active users every month, 14% more than was in 2013.

I'm pretty sure it sounds off. But why?

Maybe was is not the best choice. Some other alternatives:

> As of the end of September, Facebook had 1.35 billion active users every month, 14% more than had in 2013.

> As of the end of September, Facebook had 1.35 billion active users every month, 14% more than had had in 2013.

Hmm... Maybe it's just a wrote deletion.

> As of the end of September, Facebook had 1.35 billion active users every month, 14% more than Facebook had had in 2013.

I think "More than meets the eye" causes me the most trouble.

> He is more than ___ meets the eye.

How about these?

> He is better than ___ was in high school.

> He is better than ___ might be if he didn't work with you.

Anonymous

4:48 AM

Comparative clauses are often obligatorily reduced

5:29 AM

Indeed. The problem is I don't know when people would choose not to reduce, or how much could be left out. I think this probably is ellipsis revisited again.

1 hour later…

6:58 AM

> I'm not here after the noon
After 'the' noon sounds odd, because there is only one noon every day - no need to specify which noon we're talking about.
http://ell.stackexchange.com/a/37974/3281

The reason he gave, "there is only one noon every day", gave me a pause.

It's true that there is only one noon every day. But is it the reason we don't use the?

(I'm pretty sure he's a native speaker, though. His reasoning looks more native-speaker like.)

3 hours later…

Anonymous

10:07 AM

Hmm!

@snailboat Hello!

Anonymous

Good morning!

Anonymous

Time-based greetings like "good morning" and "good evening" evolved when both speaker and listener were in the same place, in the same time zone

Anonymous

It was always morning for both participants, or for neither

Anonymous

But these days

Anonymous

10:14 AM

Through phones, and now through the internet, you can greet people who are on the opposite side of the globe in real time!

Anonymous

I'm not sure if people have developed any sort of standards for when to use time-based greetings

Anonymous

When the speaker is in the correct time? The listener?

Anonymous

Should I say "good afternoon"?

Anonymous

I wondered about this in Japanese

Anonymous

Japan is an insular country (literally) and operates on a single time zone (since the unification in the Meiji era)

Anonymous

10:15 AM

If a Japanese person says good morning, even online, to another Japanese person, odds are they're both in the same time zone

Anonymous

So I always wondered what I should say

Anonymous

But then I realized the situation isn't any clearer in English

Anonymous

Even though English speakers are more likely to span multiple time zones

If I had to choose, I guess I would choose to use the listerner's time.

Anonymous

Good afternoon!

10:16 AM

Good morning!

Anonymous

What if I'm in chat with several people, and the listeners are all in different time zones?

Anonymous

Good morningfternoon!

LOL

How about: Good everyone!

(Is that even English? :-)

Anonymous

Probably not :-)

Anonymous

There's some net slang in Japanese to remove the time-based elements from greetings

Anonymous

10:18 AM

You can say こん (lit. "this") instead of こんにちは (lit. "this-day (TOPIC)")

Anonymous

or こんばんは (lit. "this-night (TOPIC)")

A-ha! To make it a bit more ambiguous.

Anonymous

But most people don't use that sort of slang, particularly in real life

Anonymous

My standard greeting in informal English, among friends, would be hey

Anonymous

But for whatever reason that doesn't feel appropriate here

Anonymous

10:20 AM

I could say hello...

Anonymous

Hello!

Hehe! Pretty much the same for me. I think I've almost never said "Sawasdee" to my friend. Usually, it's just "Ngai" (~ Howdy!)

@snailboat Hello, again!

Anonymous

I didn't grow up saying hello to people

Oh!

Just Hi!, maybe?

Anonymous

Well, hey replaced hi

10:23 AM

Ahh

Anonymous

I actually said hi when I was young

Anonymous

I remember sometime in grade school or junior high realizing that people actually said hey instead

Anonymous

But I think I only saw hello in books at the time

When my friend starts a conversation with "Sawasdee", I know right away that he's about to tell me something serious. :-)

Anonymous

Is that a general formal greeting?

10:24 AM

Yes.

Anonymous

Books also have hallo and hullo!

Typically, we would just say "Waddee" or "Dee"!

Anonymous

Japanese speakers learning English learn hello as the standard greeting.

I guess all textbooks for learners use Hello as the standard time-independent greeting.

Anonymous

I suppose in a sense I think of hello as the standard English greeting, even though it's not something I usually say

Anonymous

10:26 AM

I've said it a lot on ELL chat in the last year! :-)

LOL

4 hours later…

user116848

2:07 PM

"Now, why did you ignore my question?" said the Arrow.

user116848

"Um.....Er......Sorry"

user116848

2:26 PM

bye

Hello, and later.

user116848

hahaha

user116848

I kept changing my words lol

user116848

I can't seem to ping anyone.

user116848

No!

user116848

2:28 PM

I'll restart my browser!

You didn't ping anyone, I think.

user116848

I am trying now! But can't.

user116848

Unless I press the '@' button I can't seem to ping anyone by the 'right grey arrow'.

user116848

Can you?

@Arrowfar test

user116848

2:31 PM

okay....

user116848

Still no.

user116848

What do I do? I can restart my computer.

user116848

Or should I clear the cookies and caches etc?

@Arrowfar Aww... Even when you click on "reply"?

user116848

Yeah

user116848

2:34 PM

I'll figure it out....No probs I guess :)

user116848

Perhaps some glitch here on my side.

Does the popup window come up when you "click for message actions"?

user116848

Yeah

user116848

And in the pop up I am pressing the 'reply' button but nothing.

Hmm...

user116848

2:35 PM

I'll be right back......

Does "permalink" work?

user116848

Yeah, that is opening.

user116848

But what does permanent link do? I never understand.

2 mins ago, by Arrowfar

Yeah

^That's what "permalnk" for.

user116848

Oh, okay.

2:38 PM

@Arrowfar test

^I didn't use "reply" on that one. I typed :18380480 *test*

user116848

Wow! How did you know the number?

18380480 is the message ID of your message.

Permalink tells us that.

Hover your mouse over "2 mins ago" above.

Its URL is http://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/18380480#18380480

I think typing a colon then a message ID should still work, even if your "reply" does nothing.

user116848

Yeah, it would. But it will take very long each time. I'll try coming in the room again....

nods

user116848

@DamkerngT. Yay!!!!

user116848

2:44 PM

It is all good now :)

Hey, it's working!

user116848

@DamkerngT. Yeah. It was some glitch I guess.

Possibly.

user116848

Did it ever happen to you?

Hmm... I guess not. My problem usually is about sluggishness.

user116848

2:46 PM

I see. So the sluggishness is due to internet connection?

user116848

Or browser etc?

To say that my browser is crawling is probably too fast for it sometimes.

user116848

I see

My computer is a bit too old, and I usually open too many applications and too many tabs. :-)

user116848

Yeah, that must make it slow,

2:48 PM

But it's not too bad. When I can't stand it, I'll just restart my browser, or look for something to kill, or some tabs to close, and my problem will be solved. :-)

<-- aka "A man with a thousand tabs"

user116848

You are right. I don't open many tabs too. It makes my computer slow sometimes.

user116848

@DamkerngT. Thousand tabs! No! :D

Hehe!

user116848

> Yeah, that must make it slow,

user116848

> Yeah, that will make it slow,

user116848

2:51 PM

Both are okay, right? @DamkerngT.

nods -- I accept both.

My computer sometimes make problem in opening chrome

due to too many experiments

user116848

Yeah, Chrome is considered a bit heavy, I guess.

user116848

I use Firefox.

I avoid using Chrome because I've noticed that it screams for more memory much sooner than Firefox when I open a lot of tabs.

user116848

2:53 PM

Yeah, Firefox rocks!

Do you guys use windows?

user116848

Although I used to have Chrome in my computer too.

user116848

Yes, we do. I use Win 7.

@Freddy I use a lot of OS's, Windows too.

I have tried using win. 7 around 4 times

but it break ups after using it for month

2:55 PM

We've got Win 7 on one notebook. I haven't really used it.

I like Fedora but now I am using Ubuntu

I use Ubuntu, too!

I made up my mind, I will always write a comma before too.

you haven't used it in above sentence ^^ :-)

That one is a mentioned word, so it's all right. :-)

I might change my mind again, though. :-)

user image

3:02 PM

Ah, sure!

@Arrowfar Nice avatar, but doesn't relate with your user name like last one!

1 hour later…

user116848

4:18 PM

@Freddy Thanks! :D

user116848

I'll change it in a few days though :)

Anonymous

4:46 PM

@DamkerngT. Another minor sentence! :-)

@snailboat Indeed!

3 hours later…

user116848

7:26 PM

0

A: the useage of word lack

Both your sentences seems fine. Although in place of second one, you could simply say: "The teacher lacked communication skills". From Oxford Dictionaries: Police presence, which is lacking, should act as a deterrent for criminals. and, For someone so lacking in motivation, he has d...

user116848

Okay. Both me and the other answerer pasted their answer together, and basically said the same thing.

user116848

It is funny :)

user116848

I did my best while answering. I research on my own.

7:38 PM

I'm wondering if there are existing many people who are considering that saying "The teacher is lacking communication skills" is being acceptable.

user116848

nods--It looks rudish.

I'm still really wondering, though. :-)

user116848

haha

user116848

One thing I learned from ELL this year is that a sentence such as "We are liking this car (or that shop, etc.)" is possible.

Oh! The PoI

user116848

7:42 PM

Yep!

user116848

It is better than it seems in the trailer.

user116848

I mean the trailer is bad lol

I have a feeling that the series doesn't use the word "Person of Interest" as we commonly use.

@Arrowfar Oh! It looks quite okay to me. :-)

I thought it's a crime series, now it looks like it's a sci-fi one.

user116848

@DamkerngT. Oh, good then. I thought it would look all AI stuff to you ;-)

user116848

ALso Jim Caviezel and other cast is very good.

7:47 PM

She shoots in Lara Croft's style!

user116848

:-)

user116848

Thanks Arrowfar. So in your second sentence is word lacking adjective? — Murat 14 mins ago

user116848

Is it?

user116848

I mean what do I say?

user116848

I think it is 'verb' here

7:52 PM

The lacking in is lacking in is an adjective.

user116848

Oh, so 'adjective'. Okay.

Participle is probably a little more specific term.

user116848

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/lacking?q=lacking+

user116848

Yeah

user116848

But here it says 'lack in' is a 'verb phrase'. dictionary.reference.com/browse/lacking+in

user116848

7:55 PM

I wrote simply 'adjective' btw.

They call the AI Samaritan?

user116848

@DamkerngT. :DD Well, there used to be only one 'Machine'. But now there is an enemy Machine called 'Samaritan'. It is the summary of the story, I guess :-)

A-ha! Samaritan as a machine name sounds like an evil Samaritan!

user116848

Of course. It is very evil!

Maybe I should build one. :-)

What's it supposed to do?

user116848

8:00 PM

@DamkerngT. Oh, built one Damk :-)

user116848

I will be very glad.

user116848

@DamkerngT. It finds people in problems. They then help them.

That doesn't sound evil at all!

user116848

@DamkerngT. It is not. But the people controlling the other machine 'Samaritan' are very evil people

Ahh

user116848

8:01 PM

The people are evil.

user116848

Also in some instances the AI itself (Samaritan) gets evil too in the series. But I don't know how is that?

user116848

Okay, enough of this lol

user116848

I could talk about the series all day lol

user116848

So, why I am crazy about POI is that #1 Good cast, #2 No nude scenes #3 Sober story and acting :-)

nods

user116848

8:04 PM

The girls in it look like they are somewhat naughty. But it is all sober until now.

user116848

8:14 PM

user116848

I heard this a few months back. It sounds amazing.

user116848

Superb!

user116848

Yes it is! :D

8:41 PM

0

Q: Right use of comma

Yes the most important thing for me is that you live happy that's it , with smiling face. This thing matter to me a lot. Try last time , try as much as you can. I am using comma where I naturally feel that I should stop. Second thing I am focused on not using comma after that . Am I using the...

Some want to sound like Shakespeare. Some want to sound like Supreme Court justices. Most want to sound like someone they admire. All look for shortcuts. But who tries to read like a child? There is none. There is not.

hi

user116848

@DamkerngT. Great! Is that your own sentence? :-)

user116848

hi @fahdijbeli :)

Yes. I wrote that.

Hi!

user116848

@DamkerngT. Nice!

8:48 PM

Hehe!

user116848

So, in SE chats this time we have the most users today (173) :-)

user116848

But it is middle of the night here

user116848

2:00 AM.

Oh! 173 users! I think I haven't seen that before!

user116848

:)

user116848

8:55 PM

I think the number never crosses 180.

30+ is already rare for me. :-)

user116848

I see. Yeah

user116848

When there is morning here, I see only 70-80 users usually :-)

user116848

Although the number changes constantly.

nods

I think most SE users live in the US. Probably about half of the users.

user116848

8:59 PM

Exactly!

user116848

Yeah, like all the half.

user116848

I think it is a very good thing. Because it seems like more natives with us here to help with English :-)

nods

user116848

Oh, snail isn't here though.

user116848

I gotta take off. See ya @DamkerngT.

user116848

9:03 PM

Bye all.

later pal

user116848

@IceBoy Bye :)

@Arrowfar Ah, see you! (I was afk.)

9:23 PM

@DamkerngT, @Arrowfar: Good even, gentles.

Good evening!

Oh, it looks like everybody else is gone.

Seems to be. What's up in the exciting world of digital phonetics? Or any other exciting world you inhabit?

Nothing much. I'm just trying to make things go as planned as much as possible.

I do that by not planning - that always goes the way I've planned!

What's up on the other side of the world? I guess it must be more fascinating!

@StoneyB The best plan is no plan! :-)

9:28 PM

Not really. This is the dull time of year, when I have to work most of the time.

I think Halloween is coming soon there.

@DamkerngT. The celebrated German theorist of military strategy von Moltke somewhere remarks that "No battle plan survives the enemy."

@DamkerngT. Yes, and I have to do something about that - buy goodies for the trick-or-treaters, put up decorations and lights so they know that goodies are to be had here.

Sounds like fun!

The first part of the evening, when the little kids come, is fun. The teenagers come out later, and they're not so cute.

(But their costumes are often more imaginative.)

Oh! The teenagers don't come out for candies, I guess.

9:33 PM

Oh, yes. They're greedy!

But you're right, they're mostly out there to spend time with their friends.

Come to think of it, I think Halloween is a nice way for people, younger and older, in the same neighborhood to get to know each other.

I don't really know much, though. I've only seen the festival on TV and in movies.

Actually, these days there's a good deal of neighborhood-hopping. Toward the tail end of the evening there's usually one or two vanloads of 'outsiders' coming by - we think they come from neighborhoods where it's really not safe for kids to be outside, so their parents drive them here so they don't miss out. But they're just as welcome as anyone else.

Oh!

They trick-or-treat by van!

Yes - typically they'll park, send the gang out for a block or so in every direction, then pile back in the van and drive away.

Also, the police and fire department are out in force - cruising around v e r y s l o w l y to make sure that drivers slow down and don't endanger the kids - who are often too young to look-both-ways.

nods -- I hope that no kids will get hurt.

Using a van is new to me. My idea of trick-or-treat was to walk around door to door.

9:45 PM

Yes, it has to be door to door ... but the kids from other neighborhoods get brought in by van, then spread out on foot.

Sort of Hallowe'en commandos.

LOL

@snailboat Good ~~evening!~~ afternoon!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Good <appropriate portion of the day>!

@snailboat Good mid-afternoon-and-subsequently!

I think English could use a new word for generic time. :-)

Good tide!

9:49 PM

Ah, neat!

Is it just me, or has there recently been a dearth of interesting new questions?

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe we've answered all possible questions!

I think that would depend on the meaning of interesting. But I'm not sure about our questions either.

I found this in Next (Michael Crichton) yesterday.

> "She must be six feet. What do we know about her?"
"Good English. Four years in this country. Studying at the university."
"Works at the hotel?"
"No."

I wonder why he uses "Works" rather than "Work".

Maybe it's an echo-ellipsis question.

10:10 PM

Likely. The recital of facts reads like entries in a dossier, so maybe the questioner echoes that style - it's not "Does she work at the hotel" but "Does it say she works at the hotel?"

Ahh. Thanks a lot!

Hello?

Hi!

@JersonZuleta Hi!

Can anyone help me?

10:19 PM

Depends on what you need.

What's the question?

I'm kinda sleepy now. :-)

I was reading the Oxford dictionary blog and I came across this sentence: "...and the verb blart (possibly a variant of bleat, and used of a child’s crying)"

What about it?

I don't get it, why did they use "and used of a child's crying" instead of "and used for a child's crying"

Interesting.

10:23 PM

Used for would suggest that it was to quiet a child (or possibly to make a child cry!) In contexts where the topic is speech or writing, of is often used with the sense "about".

So used of means "used to speak about a child's crying" or "used to designate a child's crying" or "used to characterize a child's crying".

I mean, if I had read it as "and used for a child's crying", I'd have simply understood that that specific verb was used in the context of a child who's crying. The same meaning you're referring to when writing "used of".

Neat word. It looks North-of-Englandish.

Then again, this is the first time I see "used of" this way. Or maybe I've seen it before but never really paid attention to it.

Is there any rule as to when should I use "use of" instead of "use for"?

Speak, talk and the like won't work with for.

Say "speak for someone else" won't have the same meaning as "speak on behalf of someone else"?

10:30 PM

"Speak for someone else" has that meaning, but it cannot mean "speak about someone else", which is what "speak of" means.

"The time has come," the Walrus said, "To talk of many things: Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax-- Of cabbages--and kings-- ..."

It's just quite confusing since if I were to ask about that verb, I'd say "What is bleat used for?" rather than "What is bleat used of?" Or "use of" would only be used in the answer?

I wish I could stay longer, but I'm already in my bed now. See you later, everyone.

Anonymous

Rest well, Damkerng!

Good night!

Happy Dreams, DT!

10:35 PM

Thanks zzzz...

@JersonZuleta Well, but the way the idiom works you don't generally use blart for a child's crying - you use it for talking about (or of) a child's crying.

@StoneyB Alright, thank you so much! This is what I love about learning languages, they never stop amusing me.

Me, too!

I have never encountered blart before.

The blog said it could be a variant of "bleat".

And I just like learning weird, uncommon stuff or words in disuse. Just in case.

It isn't even in OED 1! ... But it is in the 1898 English Dialect Dictionary

Anonymous

10:49 PM

The OED has an entry for i-sublymate: "early form of sublimate, ppl. a. (c1425)"

Anonymous

I like i-sublymate

Weird, though. It suggests bleat is used of coldness.

(Did I use that correctly?)

(Yes, you did!) OED says that or EDD?

EDD.

@snailboat OED's first word is aa.

Anonymous

Blart is in the OED2 (it says "See Eng. Dial. Dict."!)

10:55 PM

I see now. Interesting. It looks like EDD's bleat is a variant of bleak.

Oh, joy! archive.org has all six volumes! Thank you, Jerson, for a new toy!

You're welcome, I guess. :D

@snailboat Betcha that's an alchemical text.

" This holy chirche..Fowndyd and endewid with heuenly Answer, I-sublymate with many priuylegies of notable men."

That is the only entry I found on that term.

11:10 PM

No kidding! By gum, "raised to high place, dignity or honour". Whodathunkit.

@StoneyB Wow, as someone who's always looking for slang words and all kinds of abbreviations, this is the first time I see "Whodathunkit"

Americanism: "Who would have thought it?"

I have to go make dinner for my son now; but this has been a very profitable encounter. Now if the Royals can beat up on the Jints ...

'night all. or 'day. or whenever

G'night!

Thanks for your help!

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