English Language Learners

8:12 AM

@snailboat The snail looks happy!

@Iplodman Oh, no! It happens sometimes. :-)

Discover of the day: Ubuntu 12 running on Atom 230 with 2GB can't cope with 800-1000 Firefox tabs, but it can handle 100 tabs just fine.

Anonymous

10:27 AM

@DamkerngT. This is Luna! :-)

Anonymous

Anonymous

She's quite fast, for a snail at least

Anonymous

11:04 AM

Interesting answers on that question about "been to X for Y"

Damkerng T.

11:42 AM

@snailboat I can count three layers of spiral. :-)

@snailboat Looks like it's an edge case (marginally grammatical) indeed.

Though my intuition seems correct.

(That it's grammatical, but could be quite an awkward thing to say without a realy good context.)

Freddy

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Snail people call them "whorls"!

2

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, yes! I forgot that word!

Anonymous

I like that word.

Damkerng T.

12:00 PM

Hmm... This is really strange. My old PC can run over 20 hours straight without any crash. Is it possible that it's about temperature?

Anonymous

Do you have the software to monitor it?

Anonymous

Whorl (mollusc)

A whorl is a single, complete 360° revolution or turn in the spiral growth of a mollusc shell. A spiral configuration of the shell is found in of numerous gastropods, but it is also found in shelled cephalopods including Nautilus, Spirula and the large extinct subclass of cephalopods known as the ammonites. A spiral shell can be visualized as consisting of a long conical tube, the growth of which is coiled into an overall helical or planispiral shape, for reasons of both strength and compactness. The number of whorls which exist in an adult shell of a particular species depends on mathematical...

Anonymous

This page tells you how to count whorls

Anonymous

And according to the method they use, you're right! Three layers!

Anonymous

But I think more than one way of counting is possible :-)

Anonymous

12:08 PM

Luna should have 4-5 whorls when she's fully grown.

Anonymous

Snaily had about 4 3/4 whorls

Man_From_India

2:09 PM

Hi @Hanaa...

I have been here for a while now, and didn't find anyone else other than you. How is everything going?

Damkerng T.

2:37 PM

I'm here now. @Man_From_India :-)

Hanaa

2:47 PM

Hello everyone

Damkerng T.

Hello!

Man_From_India

hi @DamkerngT. how r u doing/

Damkerng T.

I'm good. Thanks!

Oh, almost all questions on our main page have already been answered!

Man_From_India

he he...right, but some questions badly need a proper answer :(

Damkerng T.

Oh, which one?

Man_From_India

2:50 PM

There might me many, but one I have been following for a long time

we discussed about it some days back....let me find it out

Damkerng T.

Is it been to X for two weeks?

Man_From_India

no no, not that one...

it's already got some answer, and unfortunately I couldn't go through all the answers there :(

Yes, i got it...

here you go

0

Q: When "as" and "though" are used to introduce concession clauses

When "as" is used to introduce a concession clause, the clause has be inverse. For example, "Young as he is, he is knowledgeable". I am wondering whether I can replace "though" with "as" in these situations. Do the following sentences sound natural? 1a: Talented as he is, he is not yet rea...

Damkerng T.

Oh, I remember that one.

Man_From_India

There indeed is one answer...but that is not sufficient, I guess

Damkerng T.

It's not even close to a good answer, if I can speak freely.

However, the OP generated lots of edge cases. (I call this kind of experimenting "hacking".)

I don't know where they got the idea that as and though can be used interchangeably from.

Man_From_India

2:58 PM

yes true....btw I am trying to write this sentence - Newcomers are preached about X Is this sentence correct? I think A person can preach about X to somebody else

Damkerng T.

It makes sense to me.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. In some cases 8as* and though is interchangable, I have shared a link in the comment, where I have written what Michael swan said in practical english usage

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India True. But I don't think we can do that in those examples.

Man_From_India

correct

Damkerng T.

I'm thinking between Newcomers are preached about X and Newcomers are preached to about X.

Maybe the alternative with to is safer.

Man_From_India

3:02 PM

okay. In most cases this kind of preposition is optional. But here I am forced to think :)

Damkerng T.

Same here. I'm not absolutely sure; preach with both about and to is not something I've heard very often.

Man_From_India

But the active voice sense seems clear to me :)

A person can preach about X to somebody else

Damkerng T.

Oh, it's different in the active voice. Much safer.

Man_From_India

I will take opinion of @snailboat as well about this

if I am available when she is online I will ask, if I am not, can u please ask this for me?

Damkerng T.

Sure. I'd like to hear her opinion, too.

Man_From_India

3:07 PM

:) thanks

Damkerng T.

Welcome!

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Your prepositional passive is missing its preposition!

Anonymous

Newcomers are preached to about X

Man_From_India

Thank you @snailboat

Anonymous

It's not optional

Damkerng T.

3:16 PM

@snailboat Ah, though I thought to is safer, I thought it could be optional. Thanks for the confirmation.

Man_From_India

i see..

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The about-phrase is an adjunct

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Man_From_India

okay...abjunct is another problem for me :( sometimes I have problem understanding what is complement and what is abjunct :( (not talking about this sentence, but in general)

is there any good article about these things ?

Damkerng T.

CGEL, perhaps. :D

Man_From_India

3:25 PM

oh god :( I have the pdf of that book, a hard copy is too expensive here in India :(

surely I will check.

Damkerng T.

I usually simplify the concept: you can throw adjuncts away, but you can't with complements.

Hanaa

What is the meaning of the example you have gave?

Lo! You have given

Damkerng T.

It's not an example. It's the concept (of adjuncts and complements).

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. That is great :)

Hanaa

I mean that one of preached

Damkerng T.

3:28 PM

Oh, you have to ask @Man_From_India for that. :P

Man_From_India

@Hanaa Actually I wanted to mean someone (not specified) teaches something to the newcomers :)

Hanaa

A-ha

Man_From_India

actually I was writing something, and I used this kind of sentence there

i write gibberish most of the time :)

Hanaa

What is gibberish?

Man_From_India

I mean to say silly things :)

Hanaa

3:32 PM

I suffer from a big lack of vocabulary );

A-ha

I think u don't

Man_From_India

i too :( u have no idea...i can't remember a lot of vocabulary..I read a lot...whenever I find words that are repeated too often, then only I can remember it's meaning :(

Hanaa

Yes

Man_From_India

In that case you are not alone :P

0

Q: Does this sentence mean "much like" or " don't much like"?

Firstly sorry for my bad English. I'm translating an article about wearable Smart Watches.But there is something I'm in curious about. Does following context(bold part) mean author so much likes to know what all these new products does or author don't like to know those so much? If 2014 was ...

meaning meaning-in-context

Hanaa

Yes

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. what do you think about as much? can it be used the same way as much as or however much?

@Hanaa you can also share your views...

Hanaa

3:42 PM

Ok

Damkerng T.

I think our answerer is correct. You're also correct about However much.

> However much I like it, I still...

> As much as I like it, I still...

Man_From_India

But always it's as much as.... or however much... or Much as...

but never as much... to mean the same

Damkerng T.

I prefer two as's.

(Oh, that's funny to pronounce!)

Much as I like, ... is possible in formal or poetic writing, I think.

Man_From_India

this is strange that all dictionaries list as much as, much as, however much to mean the same thing - even though, but not as much :(

Damkerng T.

As much I like it, ... is probably possible colloquially.

nods

Anonymous

3:49 PM

@Man_From_India They probably left out a word accidentally.

Man_From_India

The answer says the last as is optional (I guess that is what he meant by a first bracket around as) but when I googled about much as the result comes as (as) much as, apparently the first as is optional

Anonymous

Yeah, sometimes people leave out the first as.

Man_From_India

@snailboat ok...possible :)

Anonymous

I don't think you can leave out the second as.

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India I'm with you on this one!

Anonymous

3:50 PM

I think you need to ask the answerer what he meant by the parentheses―I don't think it's safe to assume they meant it was optional

Anonymous

They might have put it in parentheses just because it was missing from the original

Damkerng T.

(I haven't noticed that the OP example omitted the second as until you mentioned dictionaries.)

Man_From_India

@snailboat true...

Anonymous

Yeah, we tend to fix little errors like that without realizing :-)

Man_From_India

:-)

Anonymous

3:55 PM

Are there any questions in particular you felt needed better answers lately?

Hanaa

So as much as is safer

Anonymous

In what sense?

Man_From_India

@snailboat Yea...one question I have been following for long, but no good answer :(

0

Q: When "as" and "though" are used to introduce concession clauses

When "as" is used to introduce a concession clause, the clause has be inverse. For example, "Young as he is, he is knowledgeable". I am wondering whether I can replace "though" with "as" in these situations. Do the following sentences sound natural? 1a: Talented as he is, he is not yet rea...

grammar clauses

mom calling for dinner, coming after sometime :)

Hanaa

Bon appetit

Man_From_India

4:10 PM

Thanks @snailboat for the bounty :) i think you can answer it yourself :)

@Hanaa thanks :) I am done :)

Hanaa

Welcome

May you have noticed that i am on and off repeatedly

The internet connection here in the campus is weak

Allo

Man_From_India

4:30 PM

:) no problem :)

Hanaa

Thank u

Do u still need the answer for though and if @Man_From_India?

I mean as not if, sorry

Man_From_India

@Hanaa u mean "though" and "as"?

Hanaa

Allo :)

Man_From_India

one answer is already there

that is a good answer, but that is not a complete answer in my opinion

i have asked for further details, and asked about what I didn't understand

Hanaa

So you know it :D

Ah

Man_From_India

4:38 PM

i commented my views in a comment, but that is my guess

Hanaa

Though is used in the begining , or the end of the clauses or between them

It is not used after an adjective

For instance, you can say beautiful as she is, she is still single

Man_From_India

it's used after an adjective, I am sure of that...but not sure if it can be used after a verb like in #2

as for #2 I think try as somebody may/might is a set expression

Hanaa

But : she is beautiful, she is single though

Man_From_India

That is completely different construction, and can be written correctly as Though she is beautiful, she is single

Anonymous

In COCA, I see plenty of examples with though

Anonymous

4:43 PM

But as seems to be considerably more common

Anonymous

In the searches I did, I found a ratio of about 17:1 in favor of as

Hanaa

Yes @Man_From_India

Man_From_India

yes as/though both are possible

ohh that says though is too rare

Anonymous

I don't know about too rare

Anonymous

I still found over a hundred examples with my first search

Hanaa

4:45 PM

It is uncorrect to say: beautiful though she is, she is still single@Man_From_India

Man_From_India

but the bottom line is both is possible...but is it possible to place a verb before 8as/though* like in sentence #2 of that question?

Anonymous

@Hanaa Considerably uncorrecter is the word uncorrect

Man_From_India

sentence 2# Try as/though he might, he couldn't open the box

@Hanaa No no...in Practical English Usage, Michael Swan says this is correct construction

Hanaa

Lo!

Anonymous

3315 results for [j] as * is|was|are|were　-　351 results for [j] though * is|was|are|were

Anonymous

4:50 PM

Here, [j] matches any adjective

Anonymous

So here we have a 9:1 ratio in favor of as

Man_From_India

thanks for the statistics

Anonymous

But 2497 of those results with as are preceding by another as (in the "as ADJ as X is" construction)

Anonymous

So if we focus on just the "ADJ as/though X is" construction

Hanaa

@Man_From_India can you send me the link of that#2 is correct?

Anonymous

4:52 PM

We find that as is only about twice as frequent

Anonymous

There are enough examples of both that I don't see any grounds for calling the though version nonstandard

Anonymous

(My personal intuition says it's fine)

Man_From_India

In this answer I have written what Michael Swan said in PEU

1

A: Usages of "as" and "although" with approximately the same meaning

When as means although, it takes some set pattern: adjective/adverb + as + clause d. Cold as/though it was, we went out. ( = Although it was cold, we went out) e. Tired as/though I was, I went on working. f. Bravely as/though they fought, they had no chance of winning. Note that...

Hanaa

My intuition says #2 is not fine

Man_From_India

he claimed though version is equally correct

@snailboat if we can use [j] for any adjectives in COCOA, what can represent for any verb?

Anonymous

4:54 PM

@Man_From_India ucrel.lancs.ac.uk/claws7tags.html

Anonymous

@Hanaa Then once again it appears we speak different versions of English

Man_From_India

@snailboat Thanks

Anonymous

BNC is tagged with CLAWS, too

Hanaa

Yes @snailboat

Though it is unfamiliar to me, i got it @Man_From_India

Unfamiliar as it is , i got it

Allo

Man_From_India

:-)

Hanaa

5:02 PM

BTw you did not tell me about the order of the six seasons there@Man_From_India

Man_From_India

@snailboat we can't use any verb after as/though that way? except try as he might. I think that is a set expression. What do you think of it?

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Try as PRONOUN might is definitely a set expression

Anonymous

You won't see though very often in that expression

Man_From_India

@Hanaa January to March it's winter...March to may is Spring...May to July is Summer...July to September is Rainy Season...September to November is Autumn...November to January is Fall Winter...but that all is by theory :)

Anonymous

Although I think though is still possible

Man_From_India

5:08 PM

even I have seen some sentences with though in that expression as well :)

what about any other verb?

Anonymous

Another verb is probably possible in (semi-?) jocular usage

Man_From_India

Really? :O

Hanaa

Nice!@Man_From_India

Anonymous

But as will probably outnumber though by a large factor: twenty-to-one, maybe?

Man_From_India

@snailboat Will that make sense?

Anonymous

5:09 PM

Here's an example from COCA with a different verb and though together:

Anonymous

> Many gardeners, for instance, swear that Tropicana smells like raspberries. Sniff though I might, to me Tropicana might as well be made of plastic.

Anonymous

But if you use that sort of phrase yourself, you might be accused of wordplay ;-)

Man_From_India

hmmm

Anonymous

People come up with variations on set expressions sometimes, usually in informal / colloquial speech

Hanaa

@snailboat in the last example though is between the two clauses

Anonymous

5:10 PM

Like, if you saw a friend wear a hat for the first time in a year, and you said "Long time no hat!"

Anonymous

They'd understand it as a play on "long time no see", even though it's not really a standard expression

Man_From_India

yes :-) that makes sense

Anonymous

I think with "try as PRONOUN might", some variation on the verb is possible, but it's not very common

Anonymous

It's somewhat difficult to find corpus examples

Hanaa

Gonna have dinner now, bye

Man_From_India

5:16 PM

@Hanaa Enjoy dinner :-)

hmm

Anonymous

@Hanaa It's basically the same construction as "Try as I might,"

Anonymous

= "No matter how much I sniff Tropicana, I can't smell anything."

Man_From_India

5:33 PM

It's time to go to bed...good night @snailboat...

Anonymous

Rest well!

Man_From_India

ohh one thing I was curious to ask you. I have seen you post pictures of snails, not only that you have came up with an username that has "snail" in it. Do you love snails?

Anonymous

Snails are some of my favorite animals.

Anonymous

I like lots of animals.

Anonymous

I've had hundreds of pets over the years. Lately, I have pet snails.

Man_From_India

5:36 PM

:-) even i like animals...dog is my favourite :-)

have you watched the movie, Turbo?

Anonymous

I have! :-)

Man_From_India

any such special snails do you have? ;-)

Anonymous

I have three snails. They're all garden snails.

Anonymous

It's illegal to keep most types of snails as pets here.

Anonymous

But garden snails are okay.

Man_From_India

5:39 PM

never though of them as can be kept as pet :-)

Anonymous

This is Moon!

Man_From_India

it's nice :-)

Anonymous

My snails like to eat banana.

Man_From_India

5:41 PM

finding some similarity with Turbo ;-)

Really? :-O do they eat bananas?

Anonymous

Well, they love banana if you slice it for them.

Anonymous

I usually give them a thin slice and eat the rest of the banana myself :-)

Man_From_India

:-)

ohh I have to go :( it's already 11 here, and I am supposed to go too bed early :(

it's nice talking to you :)

Anonymous

Oh! Have a good night!

Man_From_India

see you

Anonymous

5:43 PM

You too!

Hanaa

Hi again

Anonymous

6:07 PM

Hello!

Damkerng T.

6:51 PM

I just found out that I can navigate around Amazon.de without much trouble. Looks like I still can pidgin German! :-)

Ahh... Everyone is gone.

Anonymous

I'm not gone! I'm sporadically present!

Ilan

7:19 PM

hi

Hanaa

Hi !

No one is here

Anonymous

People have been saying that no one's here all day :-)

Damkerng T.

Counting down to Superbowl!

infinitesimal

:D

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, some of us are here now!

Hello @infinitesimal!

infinitesimal

7:28 PM

hi pal

so this is tchrist in the EL&U chat room

:O

Damkerng T.

7:52 PM

Yes. He is the author of a few Perl books I've read.

Ilan

@DamkerngT. Which additional programming languages do you know?

Damkerng T.

I haven't counted.

But a lot.

Ilan

don't say you know swift or obj c :)

Damkerng T.

Swift is too new for me, but I can pidgin Objective C. :-)

Anonymous

The more languages you know, the less it matters how many languages you know :-)

Damkerng T.

8:04 PM

Actually, I've once read a book about Objective C before C++ became popular.

@snailboat Absolutely agree!

Ilan

"pidgin" as a v?

Damkerng T.

It's non-standard, obviously.

Ilan

what did you mean?

Anonymous

Zero derivation is extremely productive in informal English

Damkerng T.

Let's say if I said I can pidgin German, it would mean that I can get my way around in German even when I can't really speak German.

I know some German words and I can somehow make sense of what I read or hear.

Ilan

8:07 PM

ok, so you can pidgin pidginian

Damkerng T.

I don't know pidginian!

Anonymous

In CGEL, it's argued that "zero derivation" is a non-ideal term from a theoretical point of view, and they use the term "conversion"

Anonymous

Other linguists do, too

Damkerng T.

(For example, loschen means "delete" in English. Isn't that easy? :-)

Anonymous

But I find "conversion" non-ideal from a pragmatic point of view: it's a common word that doesn't necessarily mean "conversion to a lexical class" out of context or to speaker who's unfamiliar with the term

Damkerng T.

8:09 PM

@snailboat Ahh... Who came up with the term "zero derivation"?

Anonymous

Whereas "zero derivation" seems relatively unambiguous. If you know the term, you understand what it means, and if you don't know it, then you know that you don't know and can look it up easily :-)

Anonymous

Good question. I have no idea.

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

I remember that when I was in Germany, I sometimes said "Bitter" but actually what I thought in my head was "please".

Anonymous

Hey, you said that consonants in Japanese all sound unaspirated to you as a speaker of Thai, right?

Damkerng T.

Yes, not always, but a lot of them, yes!

Anonymous

8:12 PM

Ahh

Ilan

I have a question :)

In all the IELTS writing task 1 examples they write: "The graph shows, illustrates, provide etc"... but the graph actually is not something active, so could we use passive tense here: "The information about blablabla in blablabla between x and y is provided on the bar chart"

what do you think?

@snailboat

Anonymous

The passive voice is possible, but it may not be the best choice

Anonymous

What's wrong with using the active voice?

Ilan

just wondering :)

from the academic point of view

Anonymous

8:28 PM

Well, it definitely seems like a grammatical option to me. But I didn't understand the reasoning: "the graph actually is not something active"

Anonymous

Does your native language have a preference for animate subjects in passive constructions?

Anonymous

Many languages do

Ilan

hm I think I'd say "We can see from the graph"

Anonymous

Or animate subjects in general.

Ilan

hm, yes it is ok

just wanted to know about alternative method to describe the graph

Anonymous

8:33 PM

Sure. The passive voice is possible.

Anonymous

There's the larger question of when active or passive clauses are appropriate

Anonymous

But that's more general.

Damkerng T.

I think some English sentences such as "This book is selling well" and "This car drives great!" can perplex ELLs.

But "The graph shows ..." is quite common.

Ilan

ok :)

the answer answers the question

Anonymous

Middle constructions.

Ilan

8:35 PM

gotta go!

Damkerng T.

:-)

Ilan

c u guys

Anonymous

Later!

Ilan

hh

Damkerng T.

Have a nice day!

Ilan

8:35 PM

thanks, JP #0000

Damkerng T.

Looks like Z80, not x86.

Hanaa

Hi :)

Damkerng T.

Hi!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, probably jumping to the beginning of memory to soft reboot, I guess

Anonymous

I don't know what computer I'm supposed to imagine it running on :-)

Anonymous

8:43 PM

So I can only guess!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I guess so. I'm not really good at Z80 assembly.

Anonymous

Neat!

Anonymous

I like Z80

Damkerng T.

Oh, I dropped my not!

Anonymous

Oh! I thought you were proud of your Z80 skills. :-)

Anonymous

8:44 PM

Hello again, Hanaa!

Damkerng T.

Sorry for the disappointment! :-)

Anonymous

I've done several kinds of asm over the years, but none recently.

Anonymous

Well, none very much.

Damkerng T.

Me either.

Though assembly could be really fun!

Anonymous

Uh-huh! One of my first languages was 6502 asm, when I was little! :-)

Damkerng T.

8:46 PM

Ah! My first assembly language was x86, and then 370.

I wasn't really little at that time. :-)

Anonymous

x86 was my second! (When I was, um, either 9 or 10.)

Anonymous

We had Turbo Pascal, and at the time, my options for sound and graphics were really limited without using some inline assembly. So I learned some!

Anonymous

I'm not really familiar with the 370

Damkerng T.

I believe that I had invented one of the fastest circle drawing code. It used all sort of tricks and it didn't use floating-point. That's what I was proud of!

Anonymous

I knew what it was when I was young because my dad had books about it sitting around :-)

Anonymous

8:50 PM

(I mentioned that my parents are both computer people, right?)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Neat!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yep!

Anonymous

When I was little, I drew fake circles by plotting 5 pixels, then 4, then 3, then 2, then 1, then changing direction and drawing 2, 3, 4, then 5...

Anonymous

The result wasn't exactly a circle, but it was something fast I figured out on my own :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I also came up with my own algorithm for drawing lines (really fast), and then learned that someone had already invented it a decade ago. :-)

Anonymous

8:51 PM

That was before I learned trigonometry and such

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, that's cool!

BTW, that (graphic library) was the first job I ever get paid.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It was a while before we got a computer with an FPU!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Neat!!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I think we already had 8087, but it was quite slow.

Anonymous

Our first IBM PC compatible had a 80386, which could use the 80387 coprocessor, but we didn't have one.

Damkerng T.

8:53 PM

> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bresenham%27s_line_algorithm

See, if only I was born before him...

Anonymous

At the time, I was young, so whatever I had was whatever my parents bought :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hee!

Damkerng T.

I came up with exactly that algorithm!

Anonymous

That was the first line drawing algorithm I learned. I think I learned it from a book

Damkerng T.

Took me a couple of days before I could come up with something I thought really cool.

Anonymous

8:55 PM

For lines that are approaching horizontal, you can use a slabbing optimization

Damkerng T.

Ah, I don't know how it works.

Anonymous

Or could. It doesn't make any sense anymore, I guess... :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, if you had four or eight pixels per addressable byte

Anonymous

If you have a straight horizontal line, then you can draw 4 or 8 pixels at a time in a loop

Damkerng T.

It was for the Hercules card, so I had eight pixels a byte.

Anonymous

8:57 PM

And then do the last few pixels on either end as necessary

Anonymous

And if it's close to horizontal, then you can draw each horizontal segment the same way

Damkerng T.

Ah, I remember that the code would draw everything in memory until a line is exhausted, then it would go to the next.

It might already have something similar to the slabbing optimization you mentioned already, but not as a special case.

Anonymous

I kind of miss doing low-level programming

Anonymous

When I grew up, I ended up doing high-level stuff.

Damkerng T.

I think most of us won't have to do low-level anymore.

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