English Language Learners

The last straw that helped me make my own decision (not to be her translator, I mean; asking typical answers the way most learners ask is fine for me) was when I realized that she asked the same questions (actually it was more like she used us as her translator) to four different people, one of which was myself.

Fantasier

I see. So you did point out she should study. Well, I think you do a great job being a teacher.

Damkerng T.

I tried to convince her so.

It's little painful to see her having no progress at all.

Fantasier

One can't really make progress if they just keep asking and stop learning.

Damkerng T.

nods

I wish she could learn sentence analysis from me.

Fantasier

Just noticed I didn't type 'how' after 'point out' in that sentence (I see. So . . .) -_-

Damkerng T.

5:30 PM

Heehee. It happens to me all the time.

Fantasier

Sentence analysis isn't something teachable, I think. It's just guide-able.

Damkerng T.

Perhaps, at least I think I can guide her a bit.

Being a translation student, she should really learn it, I think.

Fantasier

A lot of my friends have trouble translating sentences because they don't know where to separate elements in a sentence. When I showed them how to read a sentence, they fully understood. It's just a matter of familiarity.

Damkerng T.

Yes. And the most basic thing is perhaps knowing which word is the verb of the main clause.

And that was asking too much already.

Fantasier

Yeah.

Damkerng T.

5:38 PM

Btw, does your scores coming out mean that you succeed in entering Chula?

(Please forgive me for not knowing much about the system.)

Fantasier

The system is pretty confusing and (looks) complicated.

It's no wonder if a lot of people don't know or get confused.

To answer your question, no, I have to wait for CU to open for applying registration first.

Which is 22 April.

Damkerng T.

Oh, and still more tests ahead, then?

Fantasier

No more test! Just paper work (and website work). And then wait for the results.

Damkerng T.

Yay! (about no more test)

Fantasier

(There's actually more tests for many other people. Luckily I don't have to take any more tests.)

Damkerng T.

5:43 PM

curious about the paper work, though

An essay?

Fantasier

No, I mean like filling out registration forms, requesting for/sending transcripts etc

Not that kind of work.

Bad word choice there, I think.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. I think you're in good position.

The phrase "paper work" is fine, I think. It's just me that took it the wrong way.

(Perhaps because of the "website work". :-)

About 6-7 years ago, I was surprised that they announced the results on the web.

Fantasier

I pretty much just replaced "paper" with "website" to give similar meaning. (Filling out the website's forms etc)

Damkerng T.

Many people didn't have an internet connection back then.

Fantasier

7 years ago? I think I was probably using this:

►

Damkerng T.

5:48 PM

LOL

I remember that sound. :-)

Fantasier

Me too.

Damkerng T.

But because they forced people to check the results on the web, we could see many people had to travel from their villages into the nearest town that had an internet cafe.

What a sight!

Fantasier

That sure is inconvenient.

Damkerng T.

nods

I think everyone (well, almost!) can access the Internet rather easily nowadays.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I've had internet access for more than twenty years now.

Anonymous

5:53 PM

I remember trying to convince people that the internet was neat :-)

Damkerng T.

Things were and are so different here and there!

Fantasier

Yeah unless they're hill tribes or something. (But hey, ads imply there's 3G on the mountains!)

Damkerng T.

Ha!

About twenty years ago, having a mobile phone was so cool.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, that was a little irksome.

Damkerng T.

(I lost several of them, mostly in a cab.)

Anonymous

5:55 PM

Honestly, her homework is too hard for her. She needs to work on some easier stuff

Damkerng T.

That could help, but I think most of what she read were her assignments.

A few days ago, I asked her directly, "When do you think you will surpass me?"

Because her English skills should surpass me when she graduated.

And it's her 2nd year already.

Anonymous

Oh, is it? That doesn't seem likely in only two and a half years.

Damkerng T.

I asked her once, she told me that the course is 4 years long.

Anonymous

She's still at the "decoding" stage

Anonymous

(Well, the "make other people decode for her" stage, in her case)

Damkerng T.

5:58 PM

Heh.

Anonymous

I'm not sure if that will really lead to language competence

Fantasier

[off-topic] I always prefer the ones with -cy to the ones with -ce. (competency > competence).

But it seems the -cy ones are not usually used?

(Or used with different meanings, perhaps)

Anonymous

Competency and competence are both used.

Anonymous

You could ask a question about the difference in usage, maybe.

Fantasier

Interesting!

Damkerng T.

6:03 PM

Interesting. It's interesting because I've never thought about the difference.

Anonymous

Interesting! There are lots of "interesting"s in a very small region of my monitor :-)

Damkerng T.

Perhaps I used both. Just like I use both "Me neither" and "Me either".

Fantasier

Also, excellency and excellence. I think the former is usually used only in phrases like Your/His Excellency etc

But really I love the sound of excellency for no reason.

Anonymous

Yes, excellency in its original sense is now archaic

Damkerng T.

In Search of Excellence tilted my bias toward excellence.

(It's an old book, but perhaps everyone already knew it.)

Fantasier

6:05 PM

I don't!

Damkerng T.

I bet that your parents do!

It came around the same time the phrase re-engineering became popular.

Fantasier

When I started typing 'in search of', Google autocompleted by adding 'excellence' for me.

Obviously it was popular.

Damkerng T.

It was! :-)

I'm not sure which one came first The Third Wave or In Search of Excellence.

Anonymous

I bet Google knows!

Damkerng T.

I bet it does!

Anonymous

6:08 PM

Looks like The Third Wave

Damkerng T.

Wow! The Third Wave was from 1980!

Anonymous

Looks like competence is more common than competency in AmE, but much more common than competency in BrE

Damkerng T.

I didn't know that!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That's before I was born! :-)

Damkerng T.

I thought it came out around the year 2000.

Anonymous

6:11 PM

You could probably get away with always using competence outside of set phrases

Anonymous

In specialized contexts, etc.

Fantasier

Thank you!

Anonymous

6:26 PM

Matrix clause is one of those terms that makes sense, but I'm afraid it's terribly opaque to your average language user

Anonymous

I feel like main clause is more transparent

Damkerng T.

6:37 PM

Mentioning Matrix clause makes me start to think "What is real? How can we define real?" :-)

Anonymous

6:51 PM

Do you think you're embedded in a matrix?

Anonymous

7:03 PM

The view from Plato's cave sure is nice

Fantasier

7:18 PM

I'm so tired.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I'm not very tired today.

Have a good sleep.

@snailboat Plato's cave! Are we living in the cave!

Fantasier

I mean mentally. There is this one guy in a Facebook group about English who corrected my sentences which use 'sure' as an emphatic adverb and have 'may be not incorrect' (instead of what he thought it should be, 'may not be incorrect') in it.

I didn't even ask him to do it. :(

Damkerng T.

"We sure are", something like this?

Fantasier

Yeah, I said 'it may be not incorrect, but it sure is misleading (talking about my own explanation, not even his).

Damkerng T.

Let me guess. The guy is not an American.

Fantasier

7:22 PM

Almost all people in the group are Thai.

Damkerng T.

I see. And maybe he is still young.

Fantasier

He is older than me.

Damkerng T.

Perhaps not very old. :-)

I mean, not old enough to know what we should and should not do.

Anonymous

It may not be is the unmarked word order, I think

Anonymous

I use sure like that all the time

Fantasier

7:25 PM

I explained that the uses are not incorrect (at least descriptively); he then deleted his corrections and his previous comments, too. I thought it was all over.

He sent me a message, telling that sure shouldn't be used like this unless it's used to be an agreement signal ("The weather today is very hot!" / "It sure is!").

Anonymous

Ah, he's wrong

Fantasier

I sent him a picture captured from my LDOCE software, showing 5 senses of sure (adv), one of which is emphatic.

Damkerng T.

I think we have (or had :-) some ELL users who are just like this guy. Most of them won't stay long.

Fantasier

Then he got so mad and became all so sarcastic.

Damkerng T.

He sure is young.

You don't have to lower yourself down to his level.

Fantasier

7:30 PM

Well, it's over now. I also left the group.

Damkerng T.

(I should change my tone a bit.)

Anonymous

I don't use Facebook myself

Fantasier

I've never gained any knowledge from the group anyway. I contributed quite a lot and usually tried to tell what is right (from my understanding) when I saw misleading information.

Damkerng T.

Hey, this reminds me of a Spanish proverb I found a few days ago.

> Tell me what you brag about and I'll tell you what you lack.

Fantasier

Well, to be honest, I do brag about my English sometimes, but I do know what I lack.

Damkerng T.

7:34 PM

I didn't mean you, I meant him.

Fantasier

I know.

Anonymous

That's the thing about proverbs--they cut both ways ;-)

Damkerng T.

glad that Fantasier knows :-)

Blame it on my timing. :-)

Anonymous

I'm probably not going to edit that answer about passives

Anonymous

I think I've lost interest in how passives are taught to learners

Anonymous

7:43 PM

Other people can write answers that make the kind of sense learners expect

Fantasier

May I ask which answer? I can't seem to find it.

Damkerng T.

The one I posted PEU's entry number here?

already forgot about it

Anonymous

I deleted it when someone commented claiming that passives need active sources

Anonymous

(Sometimes passives are related to ungrammatical actives)

Fantasier

By 'active sources', you mean like 'by the doer'?

Damkerng T.

7:46 PM

Maybe I should read that comment once again. But the way I remember it, I think the comment wasn't about the passive, it's about the active with both direct and indirect objects.

Something like Give me it or Give it me.

Anonymous

Give it to me and give me it are related by the dative alternation

Damkerng T.

Perhaps it was teach. The teacher teaches me it or The teacher teaches it me.

Anonymous

Give it me is not a valid alternative to give me it

Damkerng T.

Swan said that it's possible in BrE (informal). -- Give it (to) me.

Anonymous

Ah, well, it's not possible in the English I speak.

Damkerng T.

7:49 PM

Perhaps it's best to avoid the pattern.

Fantasier

Never heard of 'give it me' either.

Damkerng T.

Me either, until I saw it in 610.3.

Anonymous

@Fantasier An active source is a sentence with an active clause which is related to a sentence with a passive clause

Anonymous

The idea is that there is a process ("passivization") which turns an active into a passive

Fantasier

@snailboat I see!

'Passivize', I like the sound of it.

Anonymous

7:51 PM

"A dog attacked me in the park." → "I was attacked by a dog in the park."

Damkerng T.

Oh, so that was it. I thought "active source" means the actor.

Anonymous

"I bought a tie." → ??"A tie was bought by me."

Anonymous

*"Built the house in 1960." → "The house was built in 1960."

Fantasier

I have breakfast. -> ?? Breakfast is had by me.

Anonymous

As you can see, active and passive counterparts aren't always equally acceptable

Damkerng T.

7:52 PM

nods

Fantasier

I think it's time I went to bed! See you everyone z-z

Anonymous

@Fantasier This is largely due to information packaging. "I'm having breakfast" puts the old information ("I") in subject position, and English has a broad preference for old information in this position. "Breakfast is being had by me" puts new information in subject position and old information at the end, where it's emphasized (probably unnaturally)

Damkerng T.

See you soon! Have a good sleep!

Anonymous

Whereas "The patient was murdered by his own doctor!" uses the passive to emphasize the actor, putting it at the end where new information is most natural

Anonymous

"The house was built in 1960." has no active source (or, if you like, the active source is ungrammatical: *"Built the house in 1960.")

Anonymous

7:55 PM

It's missing a main clause subject, which English requires.

Anonymous

The passive is different from the active in that it allows you to omit the by-phrase corresponding to the active clause subject

Anonymous

When you talk about a relationship between active and passive clauses, you should discuss those cases where only one or the other is appropriate or possible

Anonymous

Often passives are possible but inappropriate, for example.

Damkerng T.

I remember it! You told me once.

(About new information last.)

Anonymous

It's not a rule. It's only a tendency: old information in subject position

Damkerng T.

7:59 PM

I'm sure that most of the things we thought a rule are actually just a tendency.

Hmm... this reminds me of my own personal observation I got from the time I was very active in playing badminton.

When our skill went up to another level, what was right would be wrong and what was wrong would be right.

It's a really strange observation, but I think that's the way many things are.

Damkerng T.

8:12 PM

1

Q: Question about meaning of "development" in this context

The Kremlin responded by accusing the White House of treating Moscow like a "guilty schoolboy".In a separate development, Russian President Vladimir Putin said he would award medals to Russians who took part in the seizure of Crimea from Ukraine last month.

word-meaning

In a separate development reminds me of ippu (or yippu, I'm not sure) in Japanese.

Anonymous

I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe ippō?

Damkerng T.

Probably. It usually is translated as "on the other side".

Anonymous

That's the literal meaning.

Damkerng T.

Usually, I heard it in the context of a competition.

Say, the MC was reporting the progress of one contestant, and before he switched to report the progress of another contestant, I usually heard this word ippō.

Literally (in Thai), [again-side-one] ~ "on the other side" or "on another side"

I think In another development might fit the meaning. :D

Anonymous

In another development sounds to me like something reporters say and non-reporters do not

Anonymous

8:26 PM

It's mainly the use of the word development, I think

Damkerng T.

nods

Would it sound strange if an MC said it?

Anonymous

An emcee doing what exactly?

Damkerng T.

Saying in another development.

Anonymous

Well, I got that part ;-)

Damkerng T.

(I mean, an emcee is surely not a reporter, but maybe we can count them as one.)

Anonymous

8:28 PM

Um, probably not, I think

Anonymous

Emcee has a fairly wide range of usage.

Anonymous

It includes rappers, for example

Damkerng T.

I thought of a Japanese game show. :-)

Anonymous

I can't tell what you're talking about if you just say MC out of context

Anonymous

Which is why I asked "doing what exactly?"

Damkerng T.

8:30 PM

> Shiro is going great. He finished his 6th bowl already. In another development, Toda is coming right after. He is finishing his 6th bowl as soon as he can.

:D

Anonymous

No, it doesn't sound appropriate there.

Anonymous

"In another development" changes the subject

Anonymous

"In other news, ..."

Damkerng T.

On the other side sounds better, I think, then.

I think I'm not a very good emcee. I can use a little practice. :-)

Watching Japanese's emcees is fun.

Anonymous

Hmm. I think I'd call those game show hosts.

Anonymous

8:38 PM

Or maybe announcers

Damkerng T.

I thought emcees and hosts are the same!

Korean TV shows made me think so.

As a matter of fact, I learned the word emcee and its shorten form MC from Korean TV shows. (Maybe that wasn't a good idea.)

Hmm... I thought emcee or MC was derived from "Master of Ceremony". Is it so?

Anonymous

It is etymologically "Master of Ceremonies", yes.

Anonymous

But the term has a fairly wide range of use. Some of those are never replaced with the full original term, suggesting it has become a word in its own right

Anonymous

Hence the spelling emcee

Damkerng T.

And because of Japanese, I avoid the term host. :-)

Anonymous

8:45 PM

I'm reading some research about foreign accents in L2 learners

Damkerng T.

curious

Anonymous

jimflege.com/files/Flege_in_Piske_2009.pdf

Damkerng T.

Oh, they mentioned the term post-hoc.

I wonder what would the researchers think of me. :-)

> Have you been speaking to anyone in the past 5 minutes? (assuming in English) No.

> How many people were native speakers of English? None.

> How many people were native speakers of Spanish? None.

> How many were native speakers of some other language? in the past 5 minutes? None.

:D

> My own definition of L2 speech input is 'all L2 vocal utterances the learner has heard and comprehended, including his own, regardless of whether these utterances have been produced correctly by L2 NATIVE SPEAKERS, or incorrectly by other non-native speakers of the L2.'

Hmm...

> (Reading seems to have a negligible effect on L2 speech learning, apart from the occasional 'spelling' pronunciation of certain words that have been read but never heard [...])

Hmm...

Damkerng T.

9:09 PM

After the first page, I read four more pages quickly, I think I agree with the author.

However, I'm not sure about the "foreign accent". I mean, how can we measure the foreignness objectively?

In any case, it's a great paper. Thank you for letting me know about it!

Damkerng T.

9:41 PM

> Tell me about those facts from whatever source you may know them.

Oh, hello @StoneyB!

I posted that sentence because I was wondering why everyone seemed to think that "them" was out of place, and should be deleted?

It took a while before I could be quite certain about where the sentence was from.

It seems to be taken from Grimm Season 2, Episode 20, at the time 1:00:00:00.740.

And the original subtitle is a little different.

> "Tell me O' Muse, from whatever source you may know them."

It was adapted from a translation of Homer's Odyssey. (But you might already know this.)

> Tell me, too, about all these things, O daughter of Jove, from whatsoever source you may know them.

Anonymous

Oh, is there something wrong with that them?

Anonymous

My ear thinks it's okay.

Damkerng T.

I don't think it is wrong, but many of our answerers seem to think so.

Here is the question: ell.stackexchange.com/q/21655/3281

Anonymous

Well, birdman's edited sentence isn't great for a couple reasons. For one thing, it has no context to let us know what sort of style or phrasing is appropriate

Anonymous

(That's birdman, isn't it?)

Damkerng T.

9:50 PM

I believe so.

Anonymous

(I can't keep all the numbers straight in my head.)

Damkerng T.

I'm quite certain that he has at least two avatars, maybe three.

Anonymous

His method for asking questions has several key elements: 1. change the sentence without telling anyone 2. remove all context

Damkerng T.

and 3. He seems to already know an independent translation in another language of his choice.

Anonymous

I agree with WendiKidd's comment, too. You'd never say something like birdman's sentence.

Anonymous

9:54 PM

But your quote from a translation of the Odyssey seems fine.

Anonymous

Christian's comment misses the point, I think.

Anonymous

It's a minor point.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

We often use different symbols in describing language than we would normally use when writing a sentence.

Anonymous

Anyway, these questions need to be elaborated so people stop misunderstanding.

Anonymous

10:07 PM

They're forced to contextualize, and they're picking the wrong context(s).

Damkerng T.

Should I quote the text from Odyssey?

Or you already are about to post a comment?

Anonymous

You can

Anonymous

Are you using this translation? classics.mit.edu/Homer/odyssey.1.i.html

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Okay, I posted a comment. Hope it will be useful.

Gotta go to bed myself. :-)

Thank you, and good night!

Anonymous

Rest well!

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