English Language Learners

6:25 AM

hi all :) Would someone please check my wording? "How to paint a long narrow cylindrical shape with gradient shade along its Breadth."

Something like this:

I think It would sound better if I replace Shape with Form , Body or Outline.

I am not sure about Breadth either, I think it should be Width.

Damkerng T.

6:43 AM

Hi!

Your original sentence makes me think that it's about painting a 3D object realistically on a 2D surface.

If that's the case, it's fine.

GATA

Hi :) You have deduced correctly.

Damkerng T.

Though I'm not sure about gradient shade.

Shouldn't it be gradient shades?

I think the word gradient is tricky, when it is used with shade.

GATA

6:57 AM

Sorry for delay I was searching. Yes you are right :) I think I can also say "with shades created along its breadth".

Damkerng T.

If I understand the term gradient correctly (I've seen it used in Photoshop-like programs), gradient shades should be fine.

GATA

@DamkerngT. As always thank you very much :)

Damkerng T.

You're welcome. I hope it helps. (Not sure if it helps, though. :)

GATA

7:13 AM

Of course it was helpful (as always) :) I always trouble you with my question I hope I will find an opportunity to help you somehow too.

Damkerng T.

It's alright. Sentence analysis is fun!

I'm reading ZZ's question: ell.stackexchange.com/q/21640/3281. I'm not sure if I can give him a good explanation.

In any case, the meaning of the sentence should resolve how we should parse it.

GATA

7:50 AM

I am struggling for half an hour to find an answer but this is beyond my knowledge. By the way shouldnt we ask questions like why, what, where, how, which to find out what the prepositional phrase is modifying?

dailygrammar.com/Lesson-181-Prepositional-Phrases.htm

Damkerng T.

I think we can do that. Usually asking those questions will force us to think about the true meaning of the given sentence.

I think I've found a similar method in old books I downloaded from Google Books once.

GATA

This is the best method I think.

Damkerng T.

Nice. It's on Archive.org now: archive.org/details/practicalgrammar00clar

GATA

LOL I have opened 31 tabs in my browser just to find an answer for this question.

Damkerng T.

> A practical grammar : in which words, phrases, and sentences are classified according to their offices, and their various relations to one another : illustrated by a complete system of diagrams

I learned about the idea of diagramming sentences from that book. :)

Daily Grammar looks good. I think I can swim in it some time.

Bookmarked. Thanks!

GATA

7:59 AM

longest subtitle I've ever seen on a book cover. :)

Personally I wont read old grammar books.

Damkerng T.

I didn't really read the book, but I skimmed through it, and dabbed into it a bit here and there.

Oh, I think I haven't seen that "Clark's Grammar Chart" before. Quite interesting!

ia600407.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/24/…

The links work, but the images won't show up.

GATA

WOW It seems to me it has even made grammar more complicated :)

Damkerng T.

LOL

We have two wheels of grammar! :-)

Damkerng T.

8:34 AM

> Educators have argued for years about which method is best to teach reading to children. For the English language, there are two major methods, Phonics and Whole Language, within which there are subtypes Synthetic Phonics and Sight word respectively.

> [...] It [Phonics] also produces higher achievement for beginning readers and the difference is the greatest for those at risk of failing to learn to read. While some children are able to infer these rules on their own, some need explicit instructions on phonics rules. Overall, children who are directly taught phonics are better at reading, spelling and comprehension.

Hmm... I've never thought that Phonics would be that effective before. Maybe I should take a look into it.

Anonymous

9:24 AM

Don't learn to diagram sentences from an ancient book like that.

Anonymous

It's worth ignoring.

Anonymous

"Whole language" can also be safely ignored

Damkerng T.

I don't know how I was taught. But I'm sure it's not Phonics.

still figuring out about what exactly "Whole Language" is

Anonymous

It matters for the minority of students who have trouble learning.

Anonymous

For the rest, any ol' approach will work, even whole language.

Damkerng T.

9:32 AM

I found the two wheels are very intriguing. :-)

Not 100% sure, but I think, generally, the grammar in that book agrees with the contemporary grammar.

Anonymous

You mean the language it attempts to describe is similar to present day English? Fairly similar, I'd think

Damkerng T.

Yes.

If English were my food, that book would be an exotic dessert for me. :D

Anonymous

I just can't get excited about ignoring all of modern linguistics and the advances made in descriptive adequacy

Anonymous

Though you miss out on the bad parts of modern linguistics, too

Anonymous

I'll stick to working my way through CGEL for the time being

Anonymous

9:39 AM

I find most (but not all) of the arguments in CGEL fairly convincing

Damkerng T.

I think they are.

Anonymous

If you'd like to read old grammars, that's fine--I don't mean to rain on your parade. You can evaluate their ideas for yourself and see whether they work well or not

Anonymous

I just wouldn't choose it solely on the criteria that it's freely available online

Damkerng T.

In a way, I like to see how things develop.

Perhaps, I worked in software development too long.

Anonymous

Certainly there's something to be said for that. Keep in mind of course that then as now different grammarians advanced different theories

Damkerng T.

9:46 AM

nods

Anonymous

I probably sound grumpy. Now I feel like I should apologize for grumpiness :-)

Damkerng T.

That would be unnecessary. I know you tried to warn me not to choose a wrong path.

Back to the answer I pasted incorrectly a moment ago.

0

A: Here "would have + past participle" construction is used to express an assumption or expectation about the past?

A： We saw a police helicopter overhead yesterday morning. B： Really? They would have been looking for those bank robbers. This sounds incorrect to me. Personally, I would say something like "Really? They WERE PROBABLY looking for those bank robbers." In order to use this verb tense here...

It seems like AA needs to think in unreal mode to use would.

I'm not sure, but AA sounds like a native speaker.

Or at least, a bilingual.

Anonymous

They don't seem very grammatically aware.

Anonymous

That points to native speakerdom, I suppose

Anonymous

I'm looking through their answers

Anonymous

9:54 AM

Judging from what they wrote, they're a native AmE speaker learning Spanish. (I'm not certain this is correct)

Anonymous

0

A: Placement of "either" (and the verbs that follow)

Short answers: David will either write or has written a book. - YES David either will write or has written a book. - NO She likes either swimming or to study. - NO She likes either swimming or studying. - YES She likes either to swim or to study. - YES I either drank ...

Damkerng T.

Strange that you mentioned Spanish. (I have not a clue about that!)

Anonymous

They want to change "will either write or have written" to "will either write or has written"

Anonymous

Really? "Will has written"?

Anonymous

Their internal grammar doesn't seem to align with mine, at any rate

Anonymous

9:58 AM

Of course, could be mine's the defective one :-)

Damkerng T.

I see. A typo, maybe?

Anonymous

I don't know. Take a look at the answer

Damkerng T.

Generally, I think the answer is quite good. But "Drunk" is a gerund. was an eyesore for me.

Still, I think it might be another kind of typo. I made it myself sometimes.

Anonymous

I disagree with most but not all of his stated judgments

Anonymous

He says "either book or car is here" is grammatically correct

Anonymous

10:03 AM

I think he is a native speaker and he just isn't very aware of English grammar at the moment--maybe after some studying?

Damkerng T.

Whereas at the top, he wrote Either a book or a car is here. - YES

I think his native quality is really high. Maybe he is still young. I don't know.

Anonymous

I can contextualize "either book or car is here", but it requires me to treat both book and car as materials (as in "This pie is made of book! Oh, and that pie is made of car!")

Anonymous

It's a stretch :-)

Anonymous

Mmm, book pie

Damkerng T.

Btw, I had to imagine a toy car to make the sentence work.

Anonymous

10:06 AM

Papercutty.

Damkerng T.

Yummy book, and yummy car!

Anonymous

Oh, I don't have a taste for car. It feels too close to vehicular cannibalism for me

Damkerng T.

:-)

nima's questions give me an idea that I might be allowed to ask on the main something that I previously thought I shouldn't ask.

Something like enumerations.

In short, it's an ultimate hacking.

A handful of other users also seem to fond of asking questions of this kind.

Anonymous

10:26 AM

Hmm? Enumerations?

Anonymous

Enumeratio!

Damkerng T.

Yeah!

We can do this in any languages.

Pick a sentence (or make it up), knock some parts off, and try to come up with all possible alternatives we can think of.

Then we can ask, for each of those alternatives, if it is grammatical, sounds natural, should be used in what occasions, and so on.

That is what I call "ultimate hacking".

@Nico Hola! ¿Cómo estás?

Nico

Bien, ¿y tú?

Damkerng T.

Bien! :-)

Nico

:) I've just learned how to type that without changing the keyboard layout

in Gnome

Damkerng T.

10:33 AM

Oh! Neat!

Anonymous

It's natural to try experimenting with different phrasings. You did it yourself earlier with "in another development"

Damkerng T.

Yes. Learners would do this naturally.

Anonymous

I think the goal is to become aware of differences so you can make them less vague in your mind

Damkerng T.

Especially, when they want to express something they haven't seen a native speaker express the same thing before.

I think doing so moderately and appropriately can be useful.

However, I'm not sure, but I think it's not a very good idea to do so obsessively.

Anonymous

Probably not.

Anonymous

10:39 AM

Of course, you can't strictly limit yourself to things you've seen expressed. We all express new and unique thoughts

Anonymous

I know I've said a lot of English sentences that no one else has ever uttered before

Damkerng T.

I'm sure I do so in my L1 too. :-)

Anonymous

I think the past progressive is possible in that question too

Damkerng T.

Yay! I guessed right!

Damkerng T.

10:56 AM

Oh, AA said "The past continuous sounds weird to me here." I think he has a point.

I just noticed that A said this first, "Do you know how we spent the afternoon?"

Perhaps it makes more sense to continue using the simple tense, not to switch to the progressive.

Gotta go again. BBL

Anonymous

It does sound like a shift to me, but an acceptable one, I think

Zhanlong Zheng

11:36 AM

@DamkerngT. What do you think of this answer?

Damkerng T.

11:47 AM

@ZhanlongZheng I think that it's not that incorrect, but "They were probably looking for those bank robbers." is, of course, possible.

Zhanlong Zheng

it's not that incorrect, what does it refer to? his answer or the original sentence?

Damkerng T.

His answer said it (the would sentence) is incorrect, I think.

Zhanlong Zheng

why do you disagree?

Damkerng T.

Here is what he exactly said, "This sounds incorrect to me. Personally, I would say something like "Really? They WERE PROBABLY looking for those bank robbers."

Why do I have to agree with him?

Zhanlong Zheng

your reason?

Damkerng T.

11:52 AM

I think we discussed this usage a few weeks ago.

It looked fine to me back then. It still does.

Zhanlong Zheng

I didn't see your discussion back then.

Damkerng T.

I was in the room with many of us back then.

Zhanlong Zheng

So you believe "would have past participle" does have such inferential usage?

Anonymous

I don't think the would version is the most likely version, but I think it's possible

Damkerng T.

Define "inferential" (just in case that we might use it differently).

Zhanlong Zheng

11:54 AM

sorry i was not, I don't often get into a chatroom.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I thought you were in the room.

Anonymous

That's how I remember it, too

Zhanlong Zheng

to reach an opinion or decide that something is true on the basis of information that is available

Damkerng T.

Epistemic modality?

Zhanlong Zheng

oh yeah, I was in once.

Damkerng T.

11:56 AM

Now you can remember. :-)

Zhanlong Zheng

yep

only once

"would have past participle" can be used that way?

I believe so.

to infer , i mean

Yes.

is it the usage applied in my original question: They would have been looking for those bank robbers.

Here B was making an inference?

Damkerng T.

12:02 PM

Saying that B is making an inference is a bit unfamiliar to me, but if you insisted on the term, I think, yes, it would be so.

Zhanlong Zheng

what is familiar to you then? What do you make of that?

What would you say to that?

Damkerng T.

To what? I'm sorry. (I was trying to find the transcript of the previous discussion.)

Oh, speculate.

It's not a grammar terminology, but that's the way I see it.

Modality is not best learned by rules, but that is just my opinion.

Zhanlong Zheng

speculation is less assertive than inference, I suppose.

skullpatrol

Could you give me the sentence please?

Damkerng T.

@ZhanlongZheng I agree. -- looking for the sentence...

> A：We saw a police helicopter overhead yesterday morning.
B：Really? They would have been looking for those bank robbers.

Zhanlong Zheng

12:11 PM

3

Q: Here "would have + past participle" construction is used to express an assumption or expectation about the past?

The following example is from source A：We saw a police helicopter overhead yesterday morning. B：Really? They would have been looking for those bank robbers. The website says that it is an example of usage of would to express an assumption, presumption or expectation in the past. As ...

modal-verbs

Damkerng T.

Chat room's search feature is not very capable. We can't search for a simple word like would. -- sad

Found it! The previous discussion: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/7227?m=14899421#14899421

Zhanlong Zheng

to express the same meaning, can I use "should have been" instead? another Epistemic modality.

"should have been looking for those bank robbers."

skullpatrol

In my opinion, I would say " Really? They were probably looking for those bank robbers."

Damkerng T.

I think "They were probably ..." is more likely. (Hence, more natural.)

Zhanlong Zheng

let's just make descriptive opinions here, shall we?

not prescrptive

prescriptive

I would say the same, but I am considering another option is correct or not.

Damkerng T.

12:20 PM

I think skullpatrol's opinion is not very prescriptive.

skullpatrol

thanks^

Damkerng T.

Usually prescriptive and opinion don't get along very well. :-)

skullpatrol

:-)

Zhanlong Zheng

yeah, you know what i mean. That's it.

Damkerng T.

I see your point, I think.

should have been is possible in that sentence, imo.

But that doesn't mean that I think should can always replace would.

Zhanlong Zheng

12:24 PM

One of the children offered to help. That would have been Julie. (assumption about the past.)
From [Mastermind Use of English]

can i use "will have been julie" instead?

Damkerng T.

I would avoid it.

But in some situations, it might be possible.

(Still can't come up with a good context, at the moment.)

Zhanlong Zheng

why would you avoid it?

skullpatrol

"That will have been Julie." Sounds odd.

Damkerng T.

Because I read "assumption about the past", I think.

Zhanlong Zheng

but PEU 629.3 also says "will have +pp" can be used to refer to the past. e.g. We can't go and see them now - they will have gone to bed.

is this construction a restricted usage?

Damkerng T.

12:30 PM

Can be used doesn't mean that we should use it.

Zhanlong Zheng

so when should we?

Damkerng T.

For the case of 629.3, for me, probably never.

Zhanlong Zheng

is this construction always the least possible choice?

Damkerng T.

Frankly, I have to add by now to the sentence in order to read it.

Other speakers would have different opinions.

Zhanlong Zheng

Nico says in his answer：

A： We have seen a police helicopter.

B： I'm sure they will have been looking for those bank robbers.

how about this one?

Damkerng T.

12:36 PM

Nico discussed about this some days ago.

At first, I thought it was not a good usage.

Until snailboat pointed out that the search might still continue.

(up to the point that B speaks that sentence)

Zhanlong Zheng

can you find the script for me? He said he started to edit his answer after a chat with snailboat and he ended up rewriting the whole answer. I didn't see it.

Damkerng T.

looking

Not sure I can pinpoint that conversation, but I think this one is useful enough.

Apr 14 at 15:27, by snailboat

Like, in another context, "I'm sure they will have been" could be a statement about a state continued until a point in the future

Zhanlong Zheng

this is easy. future perfect tense.

Damkerng T.

Isn't it the same thing?

They were looking for the robbers yesterday. They are still looking for the robbers now, and will keep looking until they can find the robbers.

> A： We have seen a police helicopter.
B： I'm sure they will have been looking for those bank robbers.

Zhanlong Zheng

PEU 629.3 says "will have +pp" can be used to refer to the past. "will" doesn't have to be backshifted.

Damkerng T.

12:47 PM

Yes. "will have +pp" can be used for that purpose, but it doesn't mean that all "will have +pp" will be used for that purpose, and it doesn't mean that we should even use it.

Zhanlong Zheng

two usages: one is future perfect tense. the other is speculation about past.

Damkerng T.

And PEU 629.3 doesn't say anything about "when" exactly we can use it.

Zhanlong Zheng

yeah, i hope the 4th edition could add that.

in Nico's answer, was he trying to say "would have +pp" is just a backshifted version of "will have +pp" used as the future perfect tense?

Damkerng T.

Basically, that is the way would is mainly used.

Zhanlong Zheng

A： We saw a police helicopter yesterday morning.

B： I'm sure they would have been looking for those bank robbers.
what B says here is backshifted version of the following:

A： We have seen a police helicopter.
B： I'm sure they will have been looking for those bank robbers.

right?

Damkerng T.

12:53 PM

Yes.

I'm busy now. BBL

Zhanlong Zheng

1:12 PM

btw, is snailboat and snailplane the same person?

Damkerng T.

Yes.

By the way, I just found this on Wikipedia,

> The future perfect construction with will (like other constructions with that auxiliary) is sometimes used to refer to a confidently assumed present situation rather than a future situation, as in "He will have woken up by now."

Link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_perfect

I think it fits the case of PEU 629.3.

Personally, I would say the same thing with must.

Zhanlong Zheng

yeah, must and could are more apt.

Damkerng T.

The examples in PEU 629.3 are all related to both the present and the past (hence, the perfect).

Zhanlong Zheng

I can se that.

see

Damkerng T.

The description in PEU seems to emphasize the sense of the past; Wikipedia seems to emphasize the sense of present. But they are talking about the same thing.

Zhanlong Zheng

1:22 PM

i agree. wiki is more convincing.

Damkerng T.

I think it's the best I can do for now. I'm going to talk a walk for a bit, to digest what I just ate. :-)

Zhanlong Zheng

have a nice day

Damkerng T.

BBL (maybe about half an hour).

Thanks.

You too.

Damkerng T.

2:14 PM

@StoneyB "She will be back until 5 o'clock" is incorrect. So is "I cannot concur in your last set." It brings to mind an image of you standing in a box filled with foam numbers and shouting "I do not agree!!" Hahaha. — AdmiralAdama 59 mins ago

Perhaps AA has never seen "concur in" before.

Hmm... Perhaps what I thought of as his typos may not really be typos.

GATA

6:38 PM

Hi all :) Could someone please help me to describe this picture?

Damkerng T.

waiting for the picture... :-)

GATA

Damkerng T.

Making a balloon from bubble gum?

GATA

Sorry for delay :) Can I say "The boy has bubbled out the gum"?

Damkerng T.

I think that sounds good.

It looks like he is blowing the balloon.

I've never used bubbled out myself though.

GATA

6:42 PM

what about "swelled out"?

Damkerng T.

I think bubbled out sounds much better. :-)

Jolenealaska

He's "blowing a bubble"

GATA

Yeah me too :)

Damkerng T.

Oh yes. That sounds really nice.

Jolenealaska

That's how it is said. It's common.

GATA

6:44 PM

@Jolenealaska That sounds good too.

Damkerng T.

I think Blowing a bubble with bubble gum could be even more specific.

Hello @Jolenealaska. How are you? Long time no see!

Jolenealaska

I've been very, very tired.

Damkerng T.

Long day?

How are your thumbs?

Jolenealaska

I just took the sutures out yesterday. It's healing nicely.

Damkerng T.

Hooray!

GATA

6:47 PM

Good to hear that :)

Jolenealaska

I need to use some superglue or something on the nail. I keep snagging the part that got sliced.

Damkerng T.

I can't picture how your nail would look like, but I'm sure it will grow back soon.

I once lost both my toenails.

Jolenealaska

It's going to take a while. The nail needs to grow about half a cm. How did you do that?

Damkerng T.

I played badminton too much, way too much. :-)

Jolenealaska

Wha?

Damkerng T.

6:55 PM

I think you know badminton, right?

Jolenealaska

Yes

Damkerng T.

The movement we use, well I use, is not friendly for the toes.

Especially we have to shift the direction we move in the court all the time.

Kinda like ballerina's feet.

At some point, my nails bled internally.

And after a few weeks, they fell off. :-)

Jolenealaska

Wow. So then they grew back?

Damkerng T.

Left toenail first.

Yes.

At first I thought I would lose them forever.

But after a month, I got tiny toenails back.

Then I didn't pay much attention on them, and before I knew it, they looked quite like the way they were.

Jolenealaska

I can't think of badminton without thinking of bats (the flying mammal type). As a kid, I was the resident bat-catcher, I always used badminton racquets. Those racquets got used for bat-catching a lot more often than for playing badminton.

Damkerng T.

7:01 PM

LOL

Those racquets are quite multipurpose!

My racquets and my badminton shoes usually wouldn't stay long.

I had to buy new shoes every 4-5 months.

I'm not sure about how fast fingernails can grow, though; but I think they could grow faster than toenails.

GATA

My friends hand was damaged while he was working with milling machine, he lost one of his fingers but his nails grew back on other fingers.

Damkerng T.

Oh! I don't know whether I should say he was unfortunate or he was lucky.

Maybe both.