English Language Learners - 2014-04-19 (page 1 of 2)

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5:07 AM

Hello @snailboat!

5:22 AM

Thanks for your efforts. But your answer touches on what is more acceptable in AmE, but I want explanation from grammatical point of view so that when such kind of situation occurs in some other sentences I can successfully work that out. — Man_From_India 6 mins ago

That's an interesting feedback from the OP.

Anonymous

Hmm.

Anonymous

What kind of explanation could you give?

Anonymous

"People say things fitting both of these patterns, so it's okay."

Anonymous

I don't know if there's a wider pattern of complementation to be discovered. (Maybe. I don't know.)

I think we can't explain the phenomenon grammatically.

Anonymous

5:29 AM

I think it's lexical.

(Or if we could, it would be so complex and full of exception cases.)

Anonymous

Well, it would be a list of cases where it's possible.

Anonymous

I think.

Anonymous

But different words are used in different ways. You have to learn how each word is used, really.

nods

Anonymous

5:31 AM

My S key continues its revolt.

:D

I had given some thoughts on my native language too. I found it so hard to explain the usage completely and/or satisfactory enough.

Also, learning how each word is used is the right way, but still not enough, I think.

Let's see one of the OP's sentences:

> There is no use (in) filling up the forms.

It was corrected as:

> There is no use filling OUT the forms.

The case of "out" is easy to learn.

But the case of "in"-omission is not.

Then our answerer pushed it a little further:

> Filling out these forms seems pointless.

And now it's really hard to explain why the answerer prefers the last one than the OP's construction.

Anonymous

D'ah! Fire alarm went off for a moment again.

Anonymous

I'm going to have to figure out why.

Hmm... Perhaps it's the alarm itself.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, when I say how each word is used, I mean in terms of the constructions it appears in

Anonymous

5:41 AM

Which words it can appear with in what function, which words it's likely to appear with, and so forth

Anonymous

Sometimes you can simplify by identifying groups of words that behave similarly in certain respects, but ultimately each word has its own idiosyncrasies

@snailboat I still can't figure out an efficient enough way to learn that--how each word is used in which construction (or sentence pattern).

Immersion is required, I believe.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. In my experience, when you learn things explicitly...

Anonymous

As in, when you're taught how something in language works in words

Anonymous

It's more of a starting point than a goal

Anonymous

5:48 AM

It sets you up to really learn it for real when you see the patterns in actual usage

Anonymous

And that's when it sinks in and you start to feel like you know it

Anonymous

But there are times when I've seen something a number of times and didn't really get it until it was explained to me

Anonymous

And then the explanation allowed me to start to understand later on when I saw it in action again

Anonymous

Someone once told me not to use something I've learned myself until I've heard native speakers use it in three different contexts

A rather good piece of advice.

Anonymous

5:54 AM

I usually don't feel like I know when something's appropriate just based on a dictionary entry or such

Which is why I usually refrained myself from answering any question that I just learned what I thought an answer lately.

In my opinion, your block of text above sums up the essence of language learning quite well.

A little correction for the correctness of the verb. Fill up may be not common in AmE but it's not incorrect! — Maulik V 26 mins ago

Anonymous

Put new batteries in the alarms...

Oh, another interesting point.

@snailboat Yay!

Judging from english.stackexchange.com/questions/1514/… and englishforums.com/English/FillInOutUpTheForm/gdlhl/post.htm, maybe fill up a form is fine in InE?

Anonymous

I don't know. I've never heard it before.

Anonymous

As far as I'm aware, you only fill out a form / fill a form out. You don't *fill up a form or *fill a form up.

6:07 AM

nods

Though fill in is also possible, I think, but I've never seen fill up until lately, here.

Anonymous

Fill in is fine.

Anonymous

I might even say it, though I think fill out would be more likely for me. It's hard to say.

Anonymous

Introspection is unreliable.

Anonymous

Both times the alarm went off in the evening.

Anonymous

Once I was in my bedroom with the window wide open.

Anonymous

6:14 AM

Once I was in the snail room misting the snail cage.

Anonymous

And the windows were all shut the second time.

Good morning from Spain!

Just to add to the previous point. In my experience, people have different ways to learn.

There are some that are very good at learning by imitation,

Anonymous

It's true.

Anonymous

Some people need more explicit instruction than others, and often on different points.

others do need some structure (and grammar is a good stepping stone to start with)

others don't like making mistakes (in my experience this is bad)

6:24 AM

I love making mistakes. :-)

others learn by trial and error, interating constantly

Anonymous

I find that only certain kinds of mistakes are valuable.

In my experience the faster learner are those are shameless to constantly ask and practice

nods in agreement with everyone

@snailboat I think so, as there are only certain types of exercises that really help.

Anonymous

6:26 AM

But you can't be afraid of making mistakes.

@snailboat I can't deduce any pattern from the two events, except for the fact that you were there, both times. :-)

Hola! @Nico

Anonymous

I'm not made of fire!

Heehee.

Anonymous

You can't be afraid of making mistakes, even if you're like me and some of them are so bad you make everyone laugh really hard ;-)

I remember that once I understood awesome = awful! ;-)

Anonymous

6:31 AM

Oh, that's awesome!

And awful!

Anonymous

That's what I said!

LOL

catching up with the transcript and the rest of ELL

Anonymous

Stack Exchange is fun. Our Japanese SE has been more active recently

Anonymous

6:33 AM

I'm excited about that! Japanese.SE is my home

Anonymous

I wrote five answers there yesterday.

Oh, that reminds me of the Thai stack on Area 51. I should have a good look at it.

@snailboat Yay!

@DamkerngT. Hola, ¿cómo está hoy? (hoy = today)

I think I knew how they say "Yay!" in Japanese, but couldn't recall it.

Anonymous

They say "yay!"

Anonymous

6:35 AM

イェーイ！

@Nico I forgot cómo! Took me a while to be sure. Bien!

¿y usted?

Anonymous

I can think of lots of exclamations you can use when things are good but none feel quite the same as yay

@snailboat I think it means something like "I did it!".

(I heard Hiro in Heroes said that.)

Anonymous

That's yatta!

Ah, yes, that's it!

6:47 AM

@DamkerngT. (I'm Spanish and we've spoken a few times already, you don't need to speak formal to me)

@snailboat perhaps the battery is going flat.

@Nico Does ¿y usted? make it sound formal? (I thought that Bien and Estoy bien sound rather casual.)

Anonymous

@Nico They all have new batteries as of an hour ago

@snailboat See if you will get another alarm tomorrow. :D

Were both alarms around the same time of day?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I hope not. I'm not good with anxietyish stuff.

Anonymous

Around, yes, but not at the same time.

6:51 AM

Enjoy the chores! -- grin

(It can be fun, sometimes.)

Have a nice day, and see you again soon!

@snailboat I was thinking about temperature. It might get involved.

@DamkerngT. I'll tell you in the Spanish room, so that Ice Girl can find it. But itś not only about the word usted. Now the house chores are calling me.

Anonymous

Well, it wasn't the same temperature inside--one day the windows were open to the cool night air, and the other they were not

7:04 AM

I just watched a rerun of Unbreakable. It has this question "How many days of your life have you been sick?" It was an interesting question because, in the movie, our protagonist couldn't recall if he had ever sick before!

Anonymous

7:20 AM

I've been sick! raises hand

Anonymous

Sometimes it's irritating that linguistics papers have their examples romanized.

I think everyone has.

Anonymous

I mean, it makes sense.

Anonymous

But I can't tell you how many times I've been confused for a moment because my brain isn't trained to visually recognize Japanese words that are romanized

I hate it when I saw Thai having been romanized in papers without Thai letters.

But I think I understand that they might not have Thai character sets in their publishing printers.

Anonymous

7:24 AM

For Japanese, there are several reasons it makes sense. The biggest one is that Japanese writing pairs consonants and vowels, making discussion of morphology difficult

Anonymous

Linguists usually romanize on purpose, not because they have font problems

Anonymous

Another is because people read ling papers that discuss languages they don't know, or multiple languages. It's often instructive to compare something in one language to another

That is plausible.

Anonymous

It's counterproductive to force everyone to learn complicated writing systems just to compare features cross-linguistically, for example

Anonymous

The Japanese writing system takes years to learn

Anonymous

7:29 AM

(Other writing systems are not quite so hard, of course!)

I mean it's better to have the original script alongside with the romanized one.

Anonymous

That is something I would like very much.

Anonymous

But for some reason I find that it's quite rare in the case of Japanese.

And Thai too. :D

Anonymous

Usually the only papers that use Japanese writing are the ones written in Japanese.

Anonymous

7:31 AM

Although there are exceptions.

LOL

Anonymous

If I had to estimate, I'd say one or two papers in a hundred are exceptions.

That is amount to nothing.

Anonymous

You can't use amount that way.

Anonymous

Perhaps tantamount?

7:36 AM

I can't? I think I must have heard it somewhere. Maybe I misheard it. Thank you for the correction.

Anonymous

People say "X is tantamount to Y", which is what your sentence made me think of

Trying to see if I could find it in any movies...

nods

Anonymous

Tantamount is a predicative adjective which takes a to PP complement

Anonymous

But amount isn't an adjective of any kind

Oh, they used amount as a verb.

Anonymous

7:38 AM

However, it does take that same sort of complement as a verb:

Anonymous

"X amounts to Y"

BBL Some urgent matter.

Anonymous

Okay! I hope your urgent matter is resolved to your satisfaction

8:15 AM

I had appointed a plumber to take care of some pipelines around my house today, and he arrived half and hour ago.

He is still working on it.

2 hours later…

9:47 AM

which are the best books/resources to learn about english grammer for a non-english speaker?
from basics
are there any MOOC/open source learning corses-free for that?

How basic are you talking about?

@DamkerngT. starting from noun, verb, adverb, tense etc..

Can that person speak English already?

no

i am talking about kid

he cant read also

from non-english speaking country

12 years age

Hmm... That would be an entirely different thing from what I thought.

Wait. Are you the same guy who asked about a similar thing for kids last week?

9:56 AM

yeah

I guess I still don't have any better answers than the last week.

okkkk

But frankly, I wouldn't start with grammar.

sorry for disturbing you again

then?

Maybe reading stories and listen to TV programs for kids.

(Sesame Street came to mind.)

9:59 AM

yeah it is best option for english speaker kids

ok i ll check it out

then?

I think Sesame Street embeds grammar and vocab into the show.

And if I recall correctly, all programs come with subtitles on YouTube.

(The subtitles are in English, I think.)

yes, subtitle suggestion is perfect for non-english spearks

Here is Sesame Street's channel on YouTube: youtube.com/user/SesameStreet

i will search & try to donwload such videos

ok just name is enough

rest of things i ll put my efforts to google/searhc on internetworld

i just need keywords

I see.

10:03 AM

But thanks for link

i dont want to insult you

No problem.

:-)

sorry for my bad english

I think your English is fine. No need to say sorry.

sometimes in hunt of words(vocab of other language; inmy case english) we forget to pronounce/put some respect words

Once the kids are familiar with the language, I think everything is possible for them.

10:05 AM

yeah

then they can stand on their legs

In any case, this website might be useful for you: englishpage.com/index.html

They say their lessons are "advanced", which is true if the learner learns English by learning grammar first.

even i tried to see MIT & UDemy courses online; but none of them has class for Engliush grammer/english langauge because there is no need of leanign english for many people

But the stuff there is not really difficult if you're familiar with the language.

yeah i understand

but i am talking about a guy who is 12 years old & dont know engliush

are you also learning?

why are you on this channel/chat?

or moderator?

I'm a learner myself too.

By definition, everyone who is a non-native speaker would be a life-long learner of the language.

It's fun to see how people learn, and see if we could improve the way we learn.

10:13 AM

which language you are fluent with?

English, I think. :-)

then why do yiou learn it more?

i mean are you lecturer or in such profession where language is more important/

Being fluent doesn't mean that we should stop learning, in my opinion.

A part of my work is to find a better way to learn a new language.

I focus on 15yo up.

Learning a new language as an adult, I mean.

so what is your native language?

My native language is Thai.

10:19 AM

if one want to learn Thai, whcih are good resources/

website/apps/software/books?

if you have nay idea top of mind?

let's say one want to learn Thai from English

There is a website, but I forgot the name already.

In any case, I think that site, which is the best I could find on the web, is still not perfect.

&book?

how to say "I play football" in Thai?

I always suggest "conversational language first".

verb in the middle?

Yes.

10:21 AM

I first?

[chan-len-football]

Yes.

ok same grammer then?

& what about played?

What do you mean by some grammar?

playing?

No, Thai has no such thing.

10:21 AM

similar structure

english & thai language statement

isnt it?

Perhaps only the subject-verb-object pattern.

Everything else are entirely different.

i played football, hot to translate in Thai?

Almost exactly opposite.

how

[chan-len-football] can be used in any tenses.

10:23 AM

what is opposithing, please give few examples

That's one opposition. :D

then how listener will know/identify?

Imagine a language that has no tense, no modality, no article, no countability.

That's Thai.

whterhe it is continouse/past/future tense?

oh i see

Yes.

10:24 AM

you described your language in a single statement

what is modality?

:D

article=a, an & the?

Modality is a term for modal verbs.

what is counatabilty?

give me few examples

I would want to do that if this happened.

10:25 AM

ok

Countability is for singular/plural nouns.

so in thai it will

i want to do that if this happened

Quite close.

Remember that we don't say [happened] explicitly.

We mention time suggestively.

[chan-len-football-yesterday]

[chan-len-football-today]

ok then your sentence may be long evertime isnt it?

y

It depends. Let's just say that it's not very close to the way English works. :D

10:28 AM

& how do you convert this sentence in Thai "who play cricket"?

As a question?

yes

[who-play-cricket]

ok

The order of subject-verb-object is the same.

10:29 AM

tell me some secrets about your language.

(Most of the time.)

& grammer of thai language

I don't know if it has any secrets. :D

or funny things

I think it's just "different".

10:29 AM

ok which are the tough things of thai language?

to learn

That would depend on your first language.

active & passive voice in english langauge sometimes takes time to understand

similarly

For native English speakers, the use of particles can be tricky.

who are fantastic authors from thai(thailand, right?) who also writes in english?

particles ?

Yes.

10:31 AM

what is it?

I think English doesn't have it.

Most Asian languages have it I think. (I know that Chinese and Japanese have them.)

Like, when making a question or a suggestion.

[len-football] means "Play football".

[len-football-mai] means "Do you want to play football?".

[len-football-kan-na] means "Let's play football".

[len-football-kan-teu] also means "Let's play football".

dont you use "?", "!" etc.?

Not really.

- instead of space?

We also don't insert space between words when writing.

10:34 AM

i cant yet undersstand meaning of particle.

[len-football-pa] means "I want to play football. Do you want to play too?".

mai?

kan na/

what is that?

teu?

See how the meanings change by just one particle.

oh i see

len-tennis-mai

Do you want to =mai?

That means "Do you want to play tennis?"

It doesn't have to always mean "do you want to", but it suggests a question.

10:36 AM

so mai is particle/

chinese & japanese also have similar philosophy?

ok

Yes, very similar to ma in Chinese.

wow

it is really nice learning experience

which are best things about thai (except massage)

I'm glad that you like it. :-)

yeah very much

yuou are good teacher

Thank you.

10:40 AM

who are fantastic authors from thai(thailand, right?) who also writes in english?

That's a good question, because I think I don't know the answer.

There are several good Thai authors.

your other onlien friends?

ok, which are good thai books?

But I don't know about their work in English.

whihc you can recommedn to foreigners

I'd suggest สี่แผ่นดิน

10:41 AM

what is its name?

Four Reigns

The Four Reigns (Thai สี่แผ่นดิน, Si Phaen Din), a novel by Kukrit Pramoj, shows how individuals in Thai society adjust to change in the face of historic events. The story first develops under the palace life of minor courtiers during a time of absolute monarchy and explicit observance of traditional Buddhist mores. The traditional values of the times are experienced by the main character and are enhanced by her surroundings. Throughout the evolving years the country experiences disturbances of World War I; the Palace Revolution of 1932 and World War II respectively. The book focuses prim...

Kukrit Pramoj

ok

Yes. He was a great author. I'm sure he was highly fluent in English, but I don't know about his work in English.

bangkok is a part of thai?

right?

Bangkok is the capital city of Thailand.

10:43 AM

thanks for name; i will hunt on google if he had any work in english

You're welcome!

bangkok comes everytime when we think about hangover movcie

Haha. I knew that movie. :-)

what is must watch in bangkok if i go there for few days

Hehe.

10:44 AM

out of channel topic?

I'm not sure how good the movie portrayed the city, though.

?

This chat room is not very serious. Virtually, we can talk about anything.

yeah, but i dont like to cross any rule

You sure didn't. :-)

It's getting a bit late. I have to go out.

which are good place near/in bangkok?

ok

see you next time

thanks

A lot of good places here.

Welcome, and see you later. Bye!

10:47 AM

take care

have a great day ahead

or evening

Thanks. You too!

bye

Thank you vyer much

2 hours later…

1:17 PM

@snailboat Fixing your answer to this question ell.stackexchange.com/q/19480/3281, with PEU 610.3 would make it robust enough.

My scores are out! Yayyy 249/300 on Pali!

Hi all :) Would and could someone please clarify the exact meaning of "flatter" in the following text? "It flattered his vanity to think I was in love with him."

1:34 PM

@Fantasier Wow, that's pretty good! Yay! Congrats!

It looks like having an idea that this "I" in love with him makes him feel really great.

This "he" seems to be proud of himself.

@DamkerngT. Thank you :) while waiting for an answer I found this...

dictionary.reference.com/browse/flatter?s=t

The sense number 5.

Oh, so this "It" swayed him (or fooled him) to believe so! (What is this it?) :-)

What's more interesting is who this "he" and "I" are. :-)

I have no idea :) I saw it while I was searching for an example sentence to insert into my new words list for "vanity".

Oh, I thought I could read a good romance novel, well, almost. :-)

1:49 PM

Sorry :) I will consider that in my next questions :D by the way It seems that Something had happened that satisfied his assumptions regarding her opinion about himself.

It seems so.

I think the sentence can be read two ways (perhaps that's just me).

a) He think she was in love with him, and this flattered his vanity.

b) Something flattered his vanity, and it caused him to believe that she was in love with him.

Between a) and b), my default interpretation is a).

@DamkerngT. After reading your interpretations now I am more inclined to a) too. It sounds more logical. As always thank you very much :)

2:06 PM

No problem. :D

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