English Language Learners

Cerberus

1:55 AM

@snailboat No, but...that pattern is a bit scary.

Like poisonous frogs in the jungle, it screams "poison!" at me.

And like the conus marmoreus.

Anonymous

2:10 AM

@Cerberus Oh, yes! Aposematism!

Anonymous

I think it's an albino banana slug.

Anonymous

It is true that you shouldn't try to eat a banana slug.

Anonymous

They used to be used, I think, as an oral anesthetic, because their slime numbs the mouth of predators to make it hard to eat them

Anonymous

I don't think they're poisonous exactly, but if you lick one your tongue will go numb. :-)

Cerberus

@snailboat Exactly!

@snailboat Ohh that's pretty cool.

Touching is OK?

I think touching some of those frogs is not OK?

Anonymous

3:56 AM

@Cerberus You should probably keep your distance from wild banana slugs. They could have parasites

skullpatrol

4:43 AM

What's the difference in speed between a snail and a slug?

Fantasier

Serious guys at Cornell!

skullpatrol

yep

Damkerng T.

That kind of thing is what PhD is for.

> A 2005 study led by Margo Lillie, a doctor of zoology at the University of British Columbia, concluded that tipping a cow would require an exertion of 2,910 newtons (654.2 lbf) of force,[4] and is therefore impossible to perform by a single person. Her calculations found that it would take at least two people to apply enough force to push over a cow if the cow does not react and reorient its footing. If the cow does react, it would take at least four people to push it over.

> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_tipping

:D

skullpatrol

lol

►

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

4:50 AM

I have a lot of anxiety right now because the fire alarm went off

Anonymous

It said to me in people words "HOUSE IS ON FIRE"

Anonymous

In addition to beeping at me.

Damkerng T.

> You need to draw "red line" with transparent ink. -- Wow!

Anonymous

I checked pretty thoroughly over the last half hour, and I'm pretty sure neither the interior nor exterior of the house is on fire.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. What?

Damkerng T.

4:51 AM

@snailboat It's from the sketch above.

How is your house now?!

Anonymous

I can't watch. I'm too busy being in a house that is not on fire.

Damkerng T.

Yes, I just read your messages.

Anonymous

I checked everywhere, checked everything that's plugged in

Anonymous

Finally I felt silly going in circles around the house, so I watered the lawn a second time

Damkerng T.

Did you check your roof?

Anonymous

4:53 AM

@skullpatrol Thank you for the link :-)

Anonymous

The roof is not on fire either.

Anonymous

Also, the alarm went off on its own only moments after starting.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... a false alarm, maybe.

Anonymous

I'm not used to false alarms.

Anonymous

I wonder what caused it.

skullpatrol

4:57 AM

@snailboat I'm glad you liked it :-)

The video is too funny :D

Damkerng T.

If there were something really on fire when the alarm went off half an hour ago, you should have seen it by now, I think.

Is there anything smelling wrong in your house?

Anonymous

No

skullpatrol

6:06 AM

hi @xiaodongjie

Damkerng T.

xiaodongjie can't talk back, I think.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You can add users to the write access list, if you like.

Damkerng T.

I can?

Anonymous

Yes, since you're a room owner.

Anonymous

But in this case it's not necessary. The 20 reputation requirement is network-wide.

Anonymous

6:12 AM

You don't need to have 20 reputation specifically on ELL.

Damkerng T.

Oh, it's network-wide. I thought it's ELL specific. Thanks for the info.

Damkerng T.

6:25 AM

> "Stop making that noise" would be more appropriate in reference to a specific sound.

I agree that it's appropriate, but I don't like to be stopped.

> Let's make some noise.

:D

Cerberus

@snailboat Oh, what kind?

Damkerng T.

┏(--)┛┗(-- )┓┗(--)┛┏(--)┓

Cerberus

Hi.

Damkerng T.

Hi @Cerberus

I don't have slugs in my garden.

Cerberus

I don't have a garden...

Damkerng T.

6:27 AM

But I know that there are some snails.

It's a really, really small garden. :D

We can walk across my garden in 6 steps. :D

Anonymous

@Cerberus Angiostrongylus cantonensis

Anonymous

Of course, just touching a banana slug isn't going to give you meningitis, so you could touch banana slugs if you really wanted to.

Anonymous

But the slugs aren't likely to enjoy being touched, anyway!

Anonymous

7:27 AM

I had to clean my snail cage a couple days ago

Anonymous

Three of my snails made it really easy for me to put them in a jar. But Dot doesn't let me pick her up.

Anonymous

And of course, when I put her in the jar, the first thing she did was climb to the edge of the jar and try to get out

Anonymous

Then when the cage was ready, and I put the jar in the cage, she refused to leave the jar

Damkerng T.

Perhaps because she is the youngest. :-)

Anonymous

Silly snails.

Fantasier

7:29 AM

My UHT milk smells weird. Is this drinkable!?

Anonymous

What is UHT milk?

Damkerng T.

Don't drink anything weird in whichever way.

Sterilized?

Anonymous

I looked it up on Wikipedia.

Fantasier

Ultra-high-temperature processing

Ultra-high temperature processing, (less often) ultra-heat treatment (both abbreviated UHT), or ultra-pasteurization is the sterilization of food by heating it for an extremely short period, around 1–2 seconds, at a temperature exceeding 135°C (275°F), which is the temperature required to kill spores in milk. The most common UHT product is milk, but the process is also used for fruit juices, cream, soy milk, yogurt, wine, soups, honey, and stews. High heat during the UHT process can cause Maillard browning and change the taste and smell of dairy products. UHT milk has a typical shelf l...

Anonymous

Ultra-high-temperature processing

Ultra-high temperature processing, (less often) ultra-heat treatment (both abbreviated UHT), or ultra-pasteurization is the sterilization of food by heating it for an extremely short period, around 1–2 seconds, at a temperature exceeding 135°C (275°F), which is the temperature required to kill spores in milk. The most common UHT product is milk, but the process is also used for fruit juices, cream, soy milk, yogurt, wine, soups, honey, and stews. High heat during the UHT process can cause Maillard browning and change the taste and smell of dairy products. UHT milk has a typical shelf l...

Anonymous

7:30 AM

Jinx!

Fantasier

Oops. Haha

Anonymous

> High heat during the UHT process can cause Maillard browning and change the taste and smell of dairy products.[3]

Damkerng T.

Oh, it's ultra-pasteurized!

Anonymous

I guess we don't have UHT milk here, really.

Anonymous

That's fine by me. I don't drink any sort of milk.

Damkerng T.

7:31 AM

Hah!

Probably true.

Fantasier

Really? Milk is good.

Anonymous

Yeah, really. I don't have the lactase production persistence gene.

Damkerng T.

Soy milk is a good alternative.

Anonymous

I'm not sure why I would need an alternative.

Anonymous

I have water and tea! :-)

Anonymous

7:32 AM

And on rare occasions, fruit juice.

Damkerng T.

Perhaps you don't need it. I just offered it, though. -- sobbing

Anonymous

But generally speaking, I don't need sugar water.

Damkerng T.

Sugar can ruin your health.

Anonymous

True.

Anonymous

Well, since I can't metabolize lactose, consuming it would mostly cause short-term unpleasantness

Anonymous

7:34 AM

Without production of lactase persisting into adulthood, you can't break down the sugars in milk, and so your gut flora, normally in balance, feed on it and reproduce out of control, causing an infection

Anonymous

Which has various undesirable effects.

Anonymous

You can take lactase tablets if you really want to consume milk anyway!

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Fantasier

I thought every human can drink milk happily ;(

Anonymous

Pretty much, yeah. When they're babies.

Anonymous

7:36 AM

After all, that's when it makes sense to drink milk.

Anonymous

There's no reason for an adult to drink milk. But you can.

Anonymous

If you don't have one of the lactase persistence genes, then your lactase production will slowly fall off as you age

Anonymous

And over time, it'll become more and more noticeable

Anonymous

When I was a teenager, milk still agreed with me, though I rarely had it since I think milk is gross.

Damkerng T.

Lots of people claim that it can help make your bones stronger.

Anonymous

7:38 AM

But now I'm 32 and having even a small quantity of milkshake murders my innards.

Fantasier

My mom and dad seem to be able to drink it just fine.

Anonymous

Yes, there's a lot of milk-related marketing

Damkerng T.

Me too.

Anonymous

@Fantasier Good for you! Maybe you'll be able to drink it into adulthood without a problem

Anonymous

A lot of people can.

Damkerng T.

7:39 AM

But not as much as I used to.

Anonymous

The genes in questions have developed independently in different populations around the world...

Anonymous

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9224182

Damkerng T.

> CONCLUSIONS: These data do not support the hypothesis that higher consumption of milk or other food sources of calcium by adult women protects against hip or forearm fractures.

Jumping to the conclusion is what I do. :-)

Anonymous

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8154473

Fantasier

I drink it just because it's tasty. I don't really care about benefits. :P

Damkerng T.

7:43 AM

> Caffeine and alcohol intake were not associated with hip fracture risk. Some of the results of this study were unanticipated and may be due to chance or bias. If confirmed by other studies, these results would challenge some current approaches to hip fracture prevention.

@Fantasier Oh! Which flavor of the milk that you like, then?

Anonymous

@Fantasier That's about the same reason I don't drink it.

Anonymous

I think milk is really gross.

Anonymous

But I think some milkshakes are tasty. Don't ask me to reconcile these judgments--they're my gut reactions, not something rational I can explain :-)

Anonymous

But I can only have a very small amount of milkshake, maybe a tenth of a glass, even with lactase pills.

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Just plain milk with no artificial flavour. I prefer pasteurized one to UHT.

Anonymous

7:45 AM

So I never get or make a milkshake myself, but sometime I steal a little bit of someone else's. :-)

Damkerng T.

I see. Plain milk is the best.

Anonymous

Plain meaning from a cow?

Damkerng T.

Yup.

Anonymous

I also think ice cream sandwiches are tasty.

Anonymous

But they're really terrible for you so I don't eat them.

Fantasier

7:46 AM

They are!

Anonymous

Or ice cream, really.

Damkerng T.

@GATA This might be interesting for you: books.google.com/ngrams/…

Fantasier

Why is any point of doing missing? Or there's no match?

Damkerng T.

Oh, I forgot it!

Anonymous

No you didn't. It's in the query field.

Damkerng T.

7:48 AM

Strange.

Anonymous

Having no results doesn't surprise me, though I thought Google showed a message explaining when that happened.

Fantasier

> Ngrams not found: any point of doing

Anonymous

I wouldn't be surprised if the few results for any point doing had false positives: "Was the suspect at any point doing anything suspicious?"

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

I'm going to click through to some of the results, though unfortunately the graphs always give different data than the raw book searches...

Anonymous

7:50 AM

I'm curious to see where "any point to do" showed up

Anonymous

A-ha! "...deemed it necessary at any point to do so"

Anonymous

Kind of like my hypothetical example for "any point doing"

Anonymous

False positives all around.

Damkerng T.

nods (again)

skullpatrol

hi guys

Damkerng T.

7:51 AM

Hi!

Fantasier

Just point of doing did appear a lot though.

Hello!

Anonymous

Some false positives for "any point doing", but a few genuine positives, too.

Anonymous

So "any point in doing" is the clear and obvious winner, while "any point doing" is far behind but also a possible choice

Anonymous

"Any point to doing" is also possible.

Anonymous

But also far behind.

Anonymous

7:53 AM

That all squares with my intuition

Damkerng T.

Oh, I just have realized one thing.

skullpatrol

"Is there any point in doing this?" sounds natural to me.

Damkerng T.

I don't know what those % in Google Ngram charts mean.

Anonymous

@skullpatrol Me too.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, they're a pretty silly unit of measurement.

Anonymous

7:55 AM

They should put them in occurrences per mil.

Damkerng T.

Relative to all the books, or only the books within that year?

skullpatrol

@snailboat probably because I ask it a lot :-)

Damkerng T.

opm sounds better to me.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Numbers per year are per year.

Anonymous

It wouldn't make sense to do it otherwise.

skullpatrol

7:57 AM

what are they using "%" for?

Anonymous

So, to turn theses into results per million (like everything except Google)

Anonymous

Divide by 100 to get rid of the %

Anonymous

Then multiply by a million

Damkerng T.

So 10 hits in a year having 1m words is about the same as 1000 hits in a year having 100m words, then?

skullpatrol

% = 1/100

Anonymous

7:59 AM

Yeah, so 1% = 0.01, so to get rid of the percent, you divide by 100.

skullpatrol

50% divide by 100?

Anonymous

50% = 0.5

Anonymous

50 / 100 = 0.5

Damkerng T.

nods

skullpatrol

-_-

Fantasier

8:01 AM

-_-?

skullpatrol

sleepy

Fantasier

I see.

Anonymous

z-z

Anonymous

Sleepy eyes.

skullpatrol

some countries write 50% like this %50

Anonymous

8:03 AM

Where do they use that convention?

Fantasier

Huh? Do they?

skullpatrol

Iran

Anonymous

I had occasion to point out recently that some English-speaking countries use a decimal comma

Anonymous

There was an answer where it was claimed that using a decimal comma instead of a decimal point was incorrect in English

Anonymous

Which is more or less true in many English-speaking areas, but not all. (It does correspond to something with linguistic significance: we say point here for the decimal point when reading aloud.)

Anonymous

8:05 AM

It's just a convention, of course, and different people can use different conventions without it being "wrong"

Damkerng T.

I had that a lot: 123.456.789,00

skullpatrol

they switch the rolls of . and ,

Anonymous

@skullpatrol IIRC in South Africa they use spaces for thousand separators, so: 123 456 789,00

skullpatrol

interesting

there can be confusion with $7.25.2

7 dollars and 25.2 cents

Damkerng T.

Is that common?

skullpatrol

8:09 AM

only in calculations

Anonymous

Milles are fairly common in certain contexts.

Anonymous

They're generally written without another decimal point, since they're considered a third place beyond the decimal

Anonymous

Here in the US, the most common place everyone runs across them is at gas pumps. Gasoline prices usually have three digits past the decimal

Anonymous

Often there the mille is written as the fraction 9/10, rather than as a third place past the decimal

Anonymous

In other situations they're usually written as a third place, I think

Anonymous

8:13 AM

Anonymous

There you can see the prices written in normal style...

Anonymous

Here the milles are written specially.

Damkerng T.

Oh, 9/10s are cute!

Anonymous

Here I type 9/10, but I really want to type it with a vinculum.

Anonymous

8:14 AM

Why? Because vincula.

Damkerng T.

I bet that Unicode has it.

Anonymous

Unicode has dumb fractions.

Anonymous

⅝

Damkerng T.

No 9/10?

Anonymous

They have 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 8 in the denominator.

Damkerng T.

8:16 AM

Oh, I lost my bet!

Anonymous

I suppose you could compose one out of superscript and subscript numerals.

Anonymous

Although I'm not sure how you'd go about centering the 9.

Anonymous

Honestly, I don't know that much about Unicode. Even though at times it's been my job to know about Unicode.

Anonymous

Unicode is... complicated :-)

Anonymous

Honestly, I don't know why people assume I know stuff sometimes.

Anonymous

8:22 AM

At one point, it suddenly became my job to know all about databases.

Anonymous

Which is funny because that's totally not what I was hired for, and because I didn't actually know what I was doing. :-)

Damkerng T.

You should have, I think.

:D

Anonymous

Yeah, everyone thinks stuff like that.

Damkerng T.

trying to continue fighting some programs...

Anonymous

Well, I mean, I learned. I am capable of learning

Damkerng T.

8:24 AM

You sure are!

Anonymous

Yay me!

Damkerng T.

8:53 AM

> In a conversation between A and B,
A: You must've thought she (A) set me (B) up.
B: Yeah, no kidding.

Is B still thinking that A did a bad thing to her?

skullpatrol

could you replace the A and B with names please?

Damkerng T.

I heard it on a reality show: Wife Swap or something.

A is very famous, I think, but I don't know her name.

skullpatrol

say Alice

xiaodongjie

@skullpatrol Hi

Damkerng T.

I've seen her once in Donald Trump's show.

skullpatrol

8:57 AM

@xiaodongjie hi

Anonymous

Yeah, that might be easier to parse with names inserted.

Damkerng T.

Say Alice and Barb, maybe.

xiaodongjie

@skullpatrol Sorry. I forgot you, who are you?

Damkerng T.

Hi @xiaodongjie

skullpatrol

Fine thanks @xiaodongjie, how are you?

xiaodongjie

8:58 AM

@DamkerngT. Hi

Anonymous

Hello! Welcome to ELL chat

xiaodongjie

@skullpatrol fine thanks. And you?

skullpatrol

@xiaodongjie Fine.

Damkerng T.

A was the nearest one.

I wonder about this line because the first time I watched the programme in Thai, they translated "Yeah, no kidding" as [I think]. And Thai has no tenses, so it's unclear.

By default, [I think] would imply that she still feels bad.

But judging from B's face, it was more like she had felt bad, and better now (because she knew that A did it out of A's good intention).

I noted the line, and waited until the show reruns. Now I know that B said "Yeah, no kidding" in English.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Reran, I think.

Damkerng T.

9:07 AM

Oh, I used it as conditional, but I thought in present tense!

Agree. It should be reran.

I expected B to say either "I thought" or "I think".

So it was a little surprise. ("No kidding" has no tense, I mean.)

Anonymous

Yeah, it's tenseless.

Damkerng T.

9:23 AM

0

Q: Must and subjunctive

I do not know whether I can use the form of must in subjunctive: The participation subjugated to the constraint that, the car must be new the car be new Must expresses the duty, but it is not a verb. Does have to have to be used ?

subjunctive

> The car must be new.

Anonymous

Must has only one form.

Damkerng T.

I think it's not a subjunctive in English. Maybe it is in other languages.

(Not that I know what those languages are.)

Anonymous

> ... the constraint that [ the car be new ]

Anonymous

In CGEL's analysis, that's the plain form of the verb used in a subjunctive construction

Damkerng T.

We still don't have a good answer to another question on English subjunctive, I think.

Out of nowhere, saying "The car be new." would sound strange.

But suppose that someone claimed "It's a subjunctive"...

I don't know if it's absolutely correct to say that "The car be new." is an incorrect usage.

Anonymous

9:30 AM

But must doesn't have a "plain form", so it can't appear in subjunctive constructions.

Anonymous

(Again, in CGEL's analysis)

Damkerng T.

But that doesn't mean "The car must be new." is ungrammatical, I think. It just means something else.

Fantasier

I don't think it means something else. It's just not a subjunctive construction?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Main clause subjunctives are limited in distribution in modern English

Anonymous

They appear mainly in fixed phrases: "God bless you"

Damkerng T.

9:31 AM

Yes, what I meant was that I couldn't think of "must be" as a subjunctive.

If a native speaker insisted that "The car be new" was supposed to be grammatical, I would need to understand it as "May the car be new."

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Native speakers (and non-native speakers) can insist anything they want

Anonymous

But me? I don't think "The car be new" as a complete sentence is really grammatical modern English. But to resolve that, you might say not that it's ungrammatical, but that it's not modern English

Anonymous

We can get around quibbles like this by saying things like "not a sentence of modern English"

Damkerng T.

Oh! That's a nice way to put it.

Anonymous

"The car be new" to me, as a complete sentence, has no particular meaning.

Anonymous

9:35 AM

You try to repair it by inserting optative may

Anonymous

As in "Long live the king" = "May the king live long!"

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Which seems reasonable, but my internal parser doesn't get that far

Anonymous

That is, the grammar I natively acquired gives no meaning to it, even if I can try to puzzle one out intellectually

Anonymous

For whatever that's worth.

Anonymous

9:37 AM

> Must expresses the duty, but it is not a verb. Does have to have to be used ?

Anonymous

What?

Anonymous

What theory of grammar says that must is not a verb?

Anonymous

I'm not sure how to respond to that.

Damkerng T.

The question perplexed me because I think they use a completely different set of grammar from mine.

Fantasier

Theirs, apparently.

Anonymous

9:38 AM

Well, yes, but :-)

Damkerng T.

The OP's username doesn't tell anything about their L1.

Latin related, maybe.

Anonymous

Yeah, I'd believe that someone named Angela spoke a Romance language.

Anonymous

It's plausible!

Damkerng T.

1

Q: How to understand the preposition of " for" in "She is Miss Asia for 2006"?

How to understand the preposition of " for" in "She is Miss Asia for 2006"? Why not say "She is Miss Asia in 2006"? What's the usage of "for" here ?

prepositions

I think to understand that, we need to be sure that "She is Miss Asia for 2006" is a good usage first.

My instinct tells me that it sounds odd.

Perhaps from.

Or just Miss Asia 2006.

Anonymous

It sounds okay.

Damkerng T.

9:50 AM

In 2014?

Or in 2006?

Anonymous

In 2006 or earlier.

Damkerng T.

How could we say "She is Miss Asia for 2006" in year 2000?

Anonymous

It would be okay as a future description too.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see.

Anonymous

You might pick them ahead of time. Maybe the contest is rigged :-)

Damkerng T.

9:52 AM

You are talking about running for Miss Asia.

Fantasier

I think "She is Miss Asia in 2006" sounds weird. "She was Miss Asia in 2006" is better.

Damkerng T.

Yes. And I think "She is Miss Asia 2006." is more likely.

Anonymous

Well, I was just talking about the grammar, not the likelihood that you can say someone is Miss Asia for 2006 years ahead of time.

Fantasier

lol I see

Anonymous

Yeah, in the past I'd use was and in

Damkerng T.

9:54 AM

So that's what you mean? :D

Anonymous

They've given no indication that 2006 is in the past relative to speaker time

Anonymous

The sentence implies 2006 is not in the past

Damkerng T.

Suppose that it were 2014, not 2006.

> She is Miss Asia for 2014.

Anonymous

Uh-huh?

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure if it would sound okay. It sounds rather okay to me.

Anonymous

9:57 AM

The sentence sounds okay to me

Damkerng T.

Suppose that it is a good usage. Let's assume that we are in year 2015.

> She is Miss Asia for 2014.

Anonymous

Now it's weird

Damkerng T.

But She is Miss Asia 2014 is still okay, I think.

Anonymous

The year 2015, by the way. Maulik's answer did the same thing--he wrote year 2014 with no article

Anonymous

Yeah, I suppose so.

Damkerng T.

9:59 AM

I doubt that (about the article) myself too, but I wasn't sure.

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