English Language Learners

@Sawarnik Hi! See you later!

@Arrowfar That definitely looks like an arrow!

user116848

@DamkerngT. Yes, it is now. Haha.

@snailboat Hello!

user116848

@DamkerngT. That is one funny and short conversation I have ever encountered! :D

12:57 AM

Hehe!

user116848

So, the question you guys closed earlier, got opened lol

Oh, which one?

user116848

I didn't vote for open or close though.

user116848

Let me lookie lookie......

Is it that offensive one?

user116848

12:58 AM

Yeah, yeah

user116848

That one.

Oh! I think we could try to close it as "unclear what you're asking". :-)

user116848

haha

user116848

Well, forget it now. OP has accepted the answer too.

@ColleenV, Jasper, no, I want to be on the same "level" as they are. — klm123 5 hours ago

See, it's unclear what the same "level" they want. :-)

Oh, I think a jerk might work.

user116848

1:00 AM

nods

user116848

Oh, I like this name whoever this is:
Offensive_Language_Expert

LOL

user116848

I think they are some old user.

user116848

I mean check out the 'member since'

user116848

I like their answer too lol

1:02 AM

nods :-)

user116848

And they know how to give answers here too :-)

user116848

Oh, the answer that got accepted mentions 'Arrowfar'

It does!

It's worth noting, those all are primarily used when you're talking to a male. If you want to offend a woman, there are much better words to use. — ColleenV 3 hours ago

user116848

@DamkerngT. So, I always fear that using any offensive words might get me banned. That's why I didn't write any in the answer.

It's quite obvious that ColleenV was thinking of the same word I had been thinking of.

@Arrowfar Don't worry. Now we have a go-to user when we want offensive language who just joined us a couple of days ago. :-)

Anonymous

1:06 AM

Hey, it won't let me vote to close it again.

user116848

@DamkerngT. haha :D

@snailboat I think I can't vote to close it either.

user116848

@snailboat Oh, you grumpy snail! :-)

user116848

Sorry

user116848

But I should be bold....:D

user116848

1:08 AM

~~Sorry~~

Anonymous

That's right. Be bold by replacing italics with ~~strikethrough~~!

Anonymous

Very funny.

Get your candies ready. Halloween is coming!

user116848

So, I always apologize and it takes the fun out of the joke.

user116848

Not always always

Anonymous

1:12 AM

You had no reason to apologize

user116848

I do that to be on the safe side.

user116848

I am not.

Anonymous

ell.stackexchange.com/a/38003/230

user116848

@DamkerngT. Do you make Halloween in Thailand?

user116848

We don't.

1:14 AM

@Arrowfar Halloween here is for young people hanging out in the club. :-)

Anonymous

Good for you. Halloween is dumb.

Anonymous

I don't really think it's a good idea to ritualize buying tons of corporate-manufactured candy for children

I guess our international schools would make their Halloween looks a bit more like in the US or the UK.

Anonymous

And it has to be corporate-manufactured―everything has to be in its original individual wrappers to avoid suspicion that you're a terrible child poisoner―and it's not really optional

Anonymous

The costume part is fun.

user116848

1:15 AM

Yeah, dentists must be very happy....Good for their business

@snailboat Oh, I've never thought of that!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Everyone's terrified of candy with razor blades hidden inside in the US

Anonymous

Poisoned candy myths

Poisoned candy myths are urban legends that malevolent individuals could hide poison or drugs, or sharp objects such as razor blades, needles, or broken glass in candy and distribute the candy in order to harm random children, especially during Halloween trick-or-treating. == History == Claims that candy was poisoned or adulterated gained general credence during the Industrial Revolution, when food production moved out of the home or local area, where it was made in familiar ways by known and trusted people, to strangers using unknown ingredients and unfamiliar machines and processes. Some doctors...

Oh, no! Pretty scary!

user116848

@snailboat Scary. I never thought of it like that.

user116848

1:18 AM

@DamkerngT. Oh, you used the word 'scary' too lol

user116848

Good thing I know now.

@Arrowfar I did!

user116848

I remember they say to kids 'Take no toffee from any stranger'

user116848

True I guess lol

user116848

haha

1:22 AM

> By 1985, the media had driven the hysteria about candy poisonings to such a point that an ABC News/Washington Post poll that found 60% of parents feared that their children would be injured or killed because of Halloween candy sabotage.

Wow

In other news...

Proofreading test: my wife vs. Grammarly vs. Ginger vs. After The Deadline vs. Microsoft Word 2010

The wife won hands down.

:)

I haven't read the details yet.

> When Apple Corps launched their first iPhone in 2008, it didn’t dissappoint. In fact, it immediately captured the collective imagination with a geeky allure driven by Apples slick design, the phone’s smart flexibilty and it’s inovative multi-touch approach.

They say, "There are eight mistakes in it – two factual errors, three spelling errors and three grammatical errors. See our proofreading test answers page for a full run-down and explanations." Now I'm trying to locate them...

I caught 7 errors. Checking the results...

user116848

1:37 AM

@DamkerngT. Is this a software?

@Arrowfar Yes, one human v. four programs. :-)

user116848

I see

I caught one non-error. I think there shouldn't be a before geeky allure, but apparently they think it's fine.

I missed the Apple Corps.

Anonymous

Well, you can't expect any primitive grammar checker software to rival a human being

Anonymous

No one's written a good one yet

user116848

1:40 AM

So, I used Lang-8 for a while. It sucks for me.

@snailboat Their ads make us think they aren't primitive at all.

user116848

I am not that bad at language to use Lang-8.

@Arrowfar Oh, you tried Lang-8, too?

user116848

@DamkerngT. Yeah, I will give it no stars lol

LOL

user116848

1:41 AM

Like zero stars

user116848

:)

user116848

@DamkerngT. How was your experience with Lang-8? Good/Bad/Okay?

I think we could expect all those programs to catch dissappoint, flexibilty, and inovative.

Anonymous

Sounds reasonable.

@Arrowfar I think it depends.

Catching it’s is a bit trickier.

Catching Apples is even trickier!

user116848

1:46 AM

And catching 'fishes' is easy.

Hehe!

Anonymous

Fishes?

But if a program can catch Apples, I would expect it to be able to catch their, too.

@snailboat I guess it was supposed to be an error.

Anonymous

Where?

fishes

Anonymous

1:47 AM

It looks more like a word than an error

Anonymous

But it could be an error in specific contexts

Anonymous

So I thought we had such a context :-)

Prolly!

user116848

I meant it is wrong to use 'fishes' for the plural of 'fish'

Anonymous

It's fine as a plural of kind

user116848

1:49 AM

It is? I learned that it is wrong.

user116848

Let me check the Almighty Google

user116848

Although I didn't learn it on ALmighty Google

user116848

Ohhh, like "peoples"

user116848

I see

Environmental Biology of Fishes

Ah, I thought you knew.

user116848

1:51 AM

Yeah, I do. But we never use 'fishes' in usual context.

Anonymous

Words that denote game animals which normally have zero plurals generally accept regular plurals when discussing multiple types of that animal

Anonymous

For example, talking about three species of fish, you could say fishes

Anonymous

Environmental Biology of Fishes is a peer-reviewed scientific journal focusing on all aspects of fish and fish-related biology, and the links to their environment. The journal is published by Springer Science+Business Media and was established in 1976. The current editor-in-chief is David L.G. Noakes (Oregon State University, Corvallis). == Abstracting and indexing == Environmental Biology of Fishes is abstracted and indexed in the following databases: According to the Journal Citation Reports, the journal has a 2011 impact factor of 0.914. == References == == External links == Offic...

Anonymous

> Publishes original studies on the ecology, life history, epigenetics, behavior, physiology, morphology and evolution of marine and freshwater fishes

The cover looks neat!

Anonymous

1:53 AM

Here we know fishes means "multiple species of fish" rather than "multiple fish"

user116848

Yeah, when talking about 'species'. Exactly.

Anonymous

Yes or another similar categorization

Anonymous

I called it a "plural of kind" because it refers to multiple kinds of fish

user116848

yeah

Oh, this allure is killing me.

> When Apple Corps launched their first iPhone in 2008, it didn’t dissappoint. In fact, it immediately captured the collective imagination with a geeky allure driven by Apples slick design, the phone’s smart flexibilty and it’s inovative multi-touch approach.

Please tell me that a geeky allure is fine.

Because I couldn't bend me my mind to accept yet.

I think changing a to the works, but leaving a as is sounds rather strange.

user116848

2:02 AM

No way! I just read 29 Oct's chat transcript in ELU.

user116848

And no one got banned!!!!

user116848

I am not a prig though.

user116848

Prig is a good word. Good thing I knew the word.

user116848

> a self-righteously moralistic person who behaves as if they are superior to others.

user116848

Yep! It is according to the context above.

Anonymous

2:09 AM

I don't think the works

user116848

Um... Where?

@Arrowfar Must be my the geeky allure.

user116848

@DamkerngT. I don't follow :-)

@snailboat My first correction was deleting it.

15 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

Oh, this allure is killing me.

user116848

Oh, that. I see.

Anonymous

2:12 AM

Oh, that's a different sentence than I thought we were talking about.

Anonymous

> When Apple Corps launched their first iPhone in 2008, it didn’t dissappoint. In fact, it immediately captured the collective imagination with a geeky allure driven by Apples slick design, the phone’s smart flexibilty and it’s inovative multi-touch approach.

Hello again!

Anonymous

I thought we were talking about this one.

Anonymous

I'm not entirely comfortable with an allure being driven by something

Anonymous

But the article seems okay to me

2:14 AM

@JersonZuleta Hello!

Anonymous

I guess it's okay.

@snailboat nods

Anonymous

That sentence needs some work.

Anonymous

The first change I would suggest is throwing it out and starting over

Anonymous

But that's just me.

2:16 AM

Why?

Anonymous

It just looks like more work than it's worth to edit it into shape.

user116848

@JersonZuleta Hello!

user116848

@StoneyB Hello!

user116848

oerks is here too. But in the shadows.

user116848

:-)

2:18 AM

No, I mean. Why aren't you comfortable with the "geeky allure driven by..."

Anonymous

I have no idea. It was just an intuitive judgment.

In my first language, sometimes people try to replace a verb for cause/result with driven by and it will sound a little weird, and we'll know immediately that a journalist or a marketeer wrote it.

Well, I do agree that the "driven by" part sounds a bit odd. But it's understandable nonetheless.

Anonymous

Sure, I agree that it's understandable.

Anonymous

@JersonZuleta I often discuss my personal judgments about English in chat, just drawing on my intuition as a speaker of English, because I think it's sometimes helpful

Anonymous

2:28 AM

Of course, sometimes my judgments (like anyone's) can be idiosyncratic

Anonymous

Everyone's personal copy of English, or of any natural language, is different

Anonymous

I also have a mental concept of English grammar, semantics, and so forth in my head

Anonymous

I try to draw on it to explain things when I can . . .

Anonymous

But of course it's always lacking.

Same here, though. But generally I worry I might be wrong... and I don't like it. Something I need to work on.

Anonymous

2:30 AM

Well, sure. That's insurmountable.

Anonymous

If you're sure you're right all the time, it just means you aren't aware of your own limitations.

I think I'm right all the time because people make it seem like so? I'm what you'd call a nerd. So basically everyone believes I can't be wrong... like ever.

@snailboat Saying that reminds me of the trope "a man who is always right" Asimov used in one of his novels.

Whenever I say I did bad in a midterm or something, they'll say stuff like "If you did bad, I can't imagine how the others did!"

Anonymous

Yeah, you have to be careful not to let stuff like that go to your head. :-)

Anonymous

2:33 AM

@DamkerngT. Golan Trevize!

@snailboat He was always right!

I actually get annoyed by that.

Though I am always trying to achieve perfection (as unreachable as it is), it is uncomfortable when people say I already am there. No. There's still a lot of room for improvement.

@JersonZuleta nods

Is anyone on here from the states?

I know I'm not. :-)

2:45 AM

lol

I just have a question concerning their educational system.

Concerning how?

I am currently watching HTGAWM (How To Get Away With Murder) & even though they're all first year law students, they've already graduated from an Ivy League.

Well, most of them.

I've heard about How to Get Away with Murder.

(A great series, they say.)

Oh you should definitely watch it. I really love it.

My friends won't watch it because they're still too close-minded to see gay scenes on a TV show, but whatever.

The plot is amazing.

Hmm... An ABC series. I'm not sure which channel it's on here.

@JersonZuleta Just the title is intriguing enough!

2:56 AM

I don't have ABC but I watch it on Sony.

@DamkerngT. It sucks that when it's translated into my native language, it loses part of its meaning though.

Oh, I guess I can watch it on AXN.

I also have a website where you can watch it as well.

They have plenty of series on there.

@JersonZuleta Is it a free or paid site?

Free!

Hah! URL, please!

3:06 AM

Literally, all you have to do is select the series, the episode & a server to load the video.

watchseries.ag/serie/How_to_Get_Away_with_Murder

Obviously the server with more stars will load faster.

Oh, it really works. Though I'm not sure if it's kosher, and it comes with lots of ads!

Thanks.

You're welcome!

3:25 AM

en.wikipedia.org/w/…

Hmm...

The edit has this:

> A talk with Dors pretty obviously confirms his supposition, even that the word "robot" is not spoken here. Still, the issue has no apparent effect on Hari's love for Dors, and even that she concludes the talk "So you see, Hari. [sic] I'm not really what you want," he is unperturbed, thinking about his protectress and future wife in love.

I wonder why the [sic]?

Not sure. Maybe they got it wrong?

And thought that [sic] would mean there's more information between those two sentences?

I think [sic] usually means that they thought there was something wrong with the original.

I'm not entirely sure what the article is about but maybe that's not what Dors said?

Anonymous

They might have thought a comma would be more appropriate.

At least not in the original publishing.

Anonymous

3:33 AM

@JersonZuleta Sic means that is what the original said.

Anonymous

If you mark something with sic, you're saying you've left it like the original.

Anonymous

Most commonly you would do this because you think the original has an error and you want people to know it wasn't your error

@snailboat I know, but I'm thinking they might have read it from somewhere else & the original said something different, so they left it as where they read it from, but they specified it's a mistake since the original isn't like that.

A-ha! Somehow I didn't feel a comma was missing there. Interesting!

Anonymous

Seems unlikely.

3:36 AM

Yeah, it does.

Just a thought.

Your sentence makes sense only if the door being knocked on is your door, and the room behind it is the room you had lunch in, and the knock on the door occured in the same time frame. That is at least 3 logical links. If the lunch you are talking about was in 1996 and the knock was on a random door in 2014, the sentence makes no sense. If you are going to insist that no link is needed, only a temporal sequence, then you would have to accept sentences like "Maglev trains were developed when Hannibal had crossed the Alps" as unproblematic. — Roaring Fish 41 mins ago

I'm curious to see what happens next.

I think it's perhaps a usual business in grammar books for ELL to treat marginal or unusual sentences as incorrect.

prosody context

Agreed. Marginal and unusual sentences are deemed incorrect.

@prosodycontext Hello! And welcome to the room!

Hello, @IceBoy!

prosody context

good space <3 @DamkerngT.

Hi @DamkerngT. et al :-)

3:51 AM

Hey!

hello

One of the problems of deeming all marginal and unusual sentences incorrect in the books is the learners could have too strong an opinion about what should be considered incorrect.

is imagining what if kids were taught: all numbers are integer...

prosody context

Exactly. Self-defining is scored by the prescriptive grammar, and that can be pressure and intimidation for expression.. alas I am very sensitive to that kind of ruling.

@DamkerngT. That structure has always intrigued me ever since I first saw it. "too strong an opinion", "...been to so enjoyable a party".

@JersonZuleta I don't know why, but I think I use it more often lately. :-)

3:59 AM

@DamkerngT. It still sounds too odd to me. Not sure if I fully understand it but as far as I know, that's just the way it is.

nods

nods

:-)

Though I still must ask, would "...been to a party so enjoyable" be incorrect?

It sounds natural to my ear.

So both are interchangeable? No meaning difference?

4:03 AM

Perhaps not much.

Looks like it's pre-modifier v. post-modifier.

But normally you would use adjective + a/an + noun, right?

I think the basic pattern is a/an + adjective + noun.

> He bought a new shirt.

However, He has a too strong opinion is ungrammatical.

Indeed, but how would you rephrase your sentence with that pattern, though?

> He has too strong an opinion.

"... learners could have a strong opinion.." You'd have to omit the too, I assume.

4:09 AM

nods -- a strong opinion works.

realistically learners should realize not to be too opinionated

Indeed!

Anonymous

It helps if native speakers try to hold their opinions in check until they verify them, too :-)

Anonymous

Although it's fine stating a judgment for the sake of discussion

Judgments from native speakers are really valuable!

Maybe that's why I love reading comments on ELL.

4:13 AM

Sorry, but I'm a little bit lost, what y'all are talking about?

@JersonZuleta I think it stems from my comment that learners sometimes are too strict about what is correct or incorrect in English.

Namely?

I haven't money vs I don't have money?

Ice Boy seems to agree with me. And snailboat simply said that maybe native speakers shouldn't be too quick to decide whether a sentence is correct or not either.

Things like that?

@JersonZuleta Yes.

4:17 AM

Alright, got it!

I agree with you. The aforementioned example is just perfect for the situation. My friend just recently finished her English course and when I said a sentence like that one she told me I was wrong, though it is grammatically correct. They're taught there's only one 'right'.

We had a case of "Me neither" v. "Me either" once. It's a bit sad that the answer mentioning that "Me either" is perfectly fine is gone.

Why? Were they forced to delete it or...?

I can't remember exactly what happened, but I think there were a handful of comments saying that "Me either" is incorrect.

Some people would consider it as correct since it's usually preceded by a negative statement and it might give away the idea of a double negative if you were to say "Me neither."

Possibly.

4:31 AM

The English language doesn't really have an authority in those things?

A body that dictates what is right and what isn't?

Anonymous

Natural languages don't have those things.

Anonymous

There are prescriptive authorities for some languages in some regions that are official in one capacity or another. English doesn't have anything like that.

Anonymous

But even for languages where those things exist, they don't actually dictate what's right and wrong.

In Spanish we do. I mean, you're still allowed to use the language as you please, but there are rules & they also determine periodically if a commonly used word could be introduced in the dictionary as an official word and not just merely slang.

Anonymous

L'Académie française doesn't really influence the French language in a terribly significant way

4:35 AM

La Real Academia Española does. Just a single change in an accent mark is important.

Anonymous

@JersonZuleta But words are nonetheless words, regardless of whether they're recognized by a prescriptive authority.

Before you'd write "sólo" to differentiate it from the "solo" without accent mark, today, it doesn't matter anymore.

Anonymous

That's spelling.

Anonymous

One thing prescriptive authorities can influence quite a bit is orthography.

Even though some words have different spellings in BrE and AmE.

Hmm... Do we have other sets of spellings elsewhere?

4:37 AM

It was just an example.

If we're talking about grammar specifically there are examples as well.

The "dequeísmo" is the most typical one.

Anonymous

Sure, prescriptive authorities can have minor influences on grammar.

Though I might be wrong but usually if you'd like to know if what you're saying is right or wrong, you'd check the RAE website or their books.

Oh, today is a sunny day here! -- 30.5C! Yippie!

Anonymous

A descriptive grammar would probably be more accurate, though.

So even though they might not strictly dictate what's right or wrong, they're naturally a reliable source.

Like I said, you're entitled to use the language as you please, so long as people understand you... Though it could have serious repercussions.

A: Past Simple or Past Perfect

4:42 AM

nods -- It's true that most reputable grammar textbooks can solve most of the issues.

0

Your sentence is a "past perfect" tense, with two parts that are both in the past. Using "had had" is the correct grammar. http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/when-are-double-words-ok?page=all Reversed wording shows this as well. Because he had had a party last night, he woke up ...

This is another case, and the answerer's profile says Southern California Native!

Anonymous

That user's answers are uniformly low quality

This is what I'm most afraid of when I take my TOEFL. If I were to use a word or a structure not as common as the ones you'd normally use on a daily basis, would the person grading me think that I'm wrong or right?

I can't say for sure, but I hope that the ~~testers~~ examiners are open-minded enough.

I know they can't be biased, though. Say if I'm asked to write what country would I like to go to and why, and I said the UK because of the accents, they'd have to consider that a valid reason; but when it comes to grammar and such, I don't know.

@DamkerngT. That's why even though I'd like to participate on SE, I don't think my answers will be okay or complete so...

I think answers are generally useful when they address important issues correctly. An answer doesn't have to be complete or perfect, imo.

But a perfect answer would be nice, and we will give it up-up-(up^N)-votes!

4:54 AM

The only place I'd feel where I could give a perfect answer is in Math SE.

Or physics, maybe.

@JersonZuleta I think you are not alone. theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/…

@JersonZuleta Math is a language of precision!

@DamkerngT. That's why I love it. At least there I know whether I'm right or wrong.

@DamkerngT. Well, honestly I just need it to add it to my curriculum vitae. I pretty much learnt English on my own so I don't have any official institution to recognise that I might be fluent in the language.

And obviously, I need it for when I graduate, too.

nods

Ah, it's noon already! I'm off for a bit. See you all later!

later pal

See you!

I think I'll go as well.

It's midnight here.

G'night or whenever.

A: Nouns with different meaning in the plural form. How to use them on plural sentences?

5:02 AM

bye :-)

user116848

5:38 AM

1

Plural of blind is 'blind'. For example, Thick shrubs blind my downstairs windows However for something singular you would say 'blinds'. For example, Detecting glaucoma before it blinds you

user116848

It just got accepted.

user116848

Never mind.

user116848

I thought no one would like it.

user116848

It is very strange how voting works.

Weird. I thought they asked about blind the noun.

user116848

5:45 AM

Sometimes I put a lot of effort and no one likes my answer.

user116848

Other times it is the opposite lol

user116848

@DamkerngT. Yeah, there are many meanings. I got confused too a bit.

I don't think accepted answers with one up-vote is a good sign. Usually this up-vote would come from the OP themselves.

user116848

Yeah, I know

user116848

Snail's definition of "sic" is very good. I starred it.

user116848

5:49 AM

I was always unsure of what it meant exactly.

It literally means that, but it usually implies something.

user116848

Like that there is an error of some sort, right?

user116848

In [sic] I mean

It would be strange to write [sic] when we quote someone else, seeing nothing wrong in it.

user116848

I see

user116848

5:53 AM

Yeah, so only when we have a doubt about its validity etc.

Q: How do you pronounce: "seeing a"?

2

“In my new home, I live right next to a farm. I think that explains why recently I've been seeing a chicken in our yard.” (JenniferESL; her orgiginal (00:21)) Jennifer, the ESL online teacher, pronounces ‘seeing a’ as /si: ŋ-gə/ - I expect /si: ŋ-ə/ from dictionaries. So Kindly she brought h...

pronunciation

I have a feeling that JenniferESL can sign!

user116848

You were right I guess

user116848

The original question was about nouns, not verbs. — tunny 7 mins ago

user116848

@tunny Okay, I edited my answer to include both 'noun' and 'verb'. — Arrowfar 2 mins ago

Sometimes I wonder if our learners really understand our answers.

user116848

6:06 AM

Yeah, me too.

user116848

That's why I stick to simple language.

nods

user116848

Al least I try to be clear and precise.

When I have time, I usually write ELL answers a little differently from I normally talk.

@Arrowfar That's good!

user116848

@DamkerngT. Yeah, I have read some of your answers. They look very professional :-)

6:08 AM

Ah, thanks!

user116848

:-)