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12:06 AM
@ACuriousMind : It is a local gauge :p
IIRC coordinate transforms can always be performed as a local $GA(4,R)$ transform?
 
wtf is GA
 
General affine group
 
what's that
 
General linear + a constant term
It's the bigger version of the Poincaré group
 
@Slereah what
I thought coordinate transformations were GL(n)
 
12:09 AM
@Slereah Are you trying to say that the group of $\mathrm{GA}(4,\mathbb{R})$-valued gauge transformations is the diffeomorphism group?
 
well it's not a gauge group exactly
 
what is this GA business that I've never heard about before
 
But it is usually the group used for coordinate transformations
 
@0celo7 It's just the semi-direct product of the general linear group with the translations, just like the Poincare group is the semi-direct product of Lorentz with translations.
 
Although IIRC if torsion is 0 you can just use $GL$
 
12:11 AM
what torsion??
 
The torsion of the connection
 
@Slereah I don't care whether it's "gauge" or not, I want to know what exactly you mean by that statement. Do you mean that a diffeomorphism $M\to M$ is equivalently given by a smooth function $M\to\mathrm{GA}(4,\mathbb{R})$?
 
the more I know the less I know
@ACuriousMind hmm, never seen that group mentioned before (GA, not Poincare)
 
I suppose?
Although I beware of throwing math words around you :p
 
it's probably a functor
 
12:13 AM
@Slereah If I hand you a diffeomorphism $f:M\to M$, what's the $\mathrm{GA}(4,\mathbb{R})$-thingy you associate to it?
 
thingy is the most technical term
 
@0celo7 I say "thingy" because I'm not yet sure what exactly is going on
 
@ACuriousMind interesting that a German would say thingie is all
what's the German word for thingie
 
Dingsbums, probably
Or Dingens
 
yeah, I would not say the former
maybe the latter
but probably not either
 
12:14 AM
Or Dings, if you're boring :P
 
Lemme see
 
@ACuriousMind was is das dings do
yesssss
that's what I would say, guess I'm boring
 
do is not a word :P
 
da --> do
do you even Pfalz
I might even throw in a "denn" and say "issn"
 
No, I hate everything that's not proper High German :P
 
12:19 AM
maybe
 
Hm
Carlip has a whole bunch of things on the relations between diffeomorphisms and the local Poincaré gauge
But it has been a while
 
@ACuriousMind verdammter norddeutscher
 
Something about how for all 1-forms $\sigma$, $\mathcal L_{\xi} \sigma = d(\xi \sigma) + \xi d\sigma$ and the translation is defined by $\rho^a = \xi e^a$ and the rotation by $\tau^a = \xi \omega^a$
not quite sure what $\xi$ is supposed to be wrt the diffeomorphism
 
@HDE226868 Aww I was hopingyou were talking about an actual astronomical system. That would be cool.
 
@Slereah wtf?
what is $\xi$?
 
12:22 AM
@HDE226868 Still very cool though.
 
$\rho^a,e^a,\tau^a,\omega^a$?
 
@NeuroFuzzy In an infinite at the least, very very large universe, many cool things can happen.
 
Oh, apparently $\xi$ is for the transformation $x^i \rightarrow x^i - \xi^i$
for an infinitesimal diffeomorphism
$e$ is the tetrad field, $\omega$ is the spin connection
 
@HDE226868 I guess. I was assuming it's unstable.
 
what does "infinitesimal" mean, anyway
 
12:24 AM
Very small
 
@NeuroFuzzy Oh, incredibly.
 
how can a tensor be small
 
First order development
 
@Slereah No, smaller than that!
 
what does it mean that a tensor is small
seriously
 
12:25 AM
Well, more like that it's unlikely to form in those precise conditions, or something close enough to them.
 
not a tensor, the transformation
 
just pick coordinates in which it is big :P
@Slereah I know
 
@0celo7 As a physicist who's learned some real analysis you just have to know when to translate between $y=C x+O(x^2)$ ($x\to 0$), $dy/dx=C$ ($x=0$), and $dy=C dx$ ($x=0$).
 
@NeuroFuzzy what
I'm asking about a tensor
like the metric perturbation
it's not small in all coordinate systems
 
But @0celo7
The transformation is in the change of the coordinate system
You can't change coordinate on a coordinate change
 
12:29 AM
what?
 
@0celo7 it's a tiny leap of imagination to let the above be some component of a tensor in what I just said!
 
@NeuroFuzzy there's nothing special about the components of a tensor
 
Also the transformation is infinitesimal
It will be infinitesimal in all coordinate systems anyway
 
give me some cordinate system where $g_{33}=.00000001$ and there's one where $g'_{33}=10^{100}$
 
What's your point
 
12:31 AM
I think GR is irreconcilably broken
 
Lol I can't tell if you're serious or not.
 
@NeuroFuzzy about what
 
@0celo7 The infinitesimal thing.
 
I'm serious about some things
@NeuroFuzzy englighten me
what does it mean for a tensor to be small
 
@0celo7 Sure. Take for example that one passage in Arnold of the definition of a functional derivative. The action has units so it means nothing to be small, but you can define an infinitesimal change in action.
The real analysis way to do this is to tack on an $O(h^2)$, with some weirdo epsilon delta meaning
Mathematicians will do the "For all epsilon there exists a delta such that blah blah blah", which is the rigorous way to do it.
Physicists say "it's an infinitesimal. Deal with it."
So just translate between the two
adding a new definition of $+O(h^2)$ wherever needed.
 
12:34 AM
what is $h$ for a tensor?
 
Depends on the context.
 
metric perturbation
$g_{ab}=\eta_{ab}+h_{ab}$
what does it mean when one says $|h_{\mu\nu}|\ll 1$
in what coordinate system?
because I guarantee you there's one where it's much larger than $1$
 
Well for a start
If you do that kind of perturbation
It happens in flat space
Second this is the same as all "is very small"
 
@0celo7 huh? i don't think you can. $h$ is unitless so that should be a meaningful statement.
 
The definition depends on the precision of your instruments
 
12:37 AM
@NeuroFuzzy nope :)
the coordinate components of tensors can be fucked up by taking a fucked up coordinate system
 
@Slereah It's the vector field that generates the diffeomorphism, and there should be an $\epsilon$ in front of the $\xi$ :P
 
Don't tell Carlip how to write a book :V
although tell him to not use "P" to convey the meaning of the momentum of the induced metric
And whatever the fuck "Y" is supposed to be
Oh and not use "m" as a variable
 
I'm probably crazy
 
@0celo7 Fine! $g=\eta+\lambda h+O(\lambda^2)$, $\lambda\in \mathbb{R}$, $\lambda \ll 1$, and "$+O(\lambda^2)$" is the usual statement on coordinates!
 
@Slereah Well, apparently it's not written well because you still haven't told me where the $\mathrm{GA}(4,\mathbb{R})$ comes into play.
 
12:44 AM
@NeuroFuzzy what if I find coordinates where $h_{\mu\nu}\gg 1/\lambda$ :P
I'm convinced we should just use Newtonian gravity
much easier
just add an inverse cubic term to the force law
 
@ACuriousMind Try here, mb
 
Oh god all those stupid indices
 
@0celo7 I can always find a smaller lambda to make the statement $h_{\mu \nu}\lambda \ll 1$ true. That's the gist of the "for all epsilon there exists a delta" thing inside the $+O(\lambda^2)$.
 
@ACuriousMind stupid ?
 
@ACuriousMind Don't complain, it's pretty indice-free as far as GR goes :p
 
12:46 AM
@0celo7 Am not :(
 
He only writes the tensor indices, not the form indices
 
@NeuroFuzzy defensive much
 
@Slereah Are we in 3D, or why does the LC symbol only have three indices?
 
3D
It's a book on 2+1D gravity
 
@0celo7 self deprecating humor. Hehe textual ambiguities!
I have to go make dinner. Rolls and prime rib!
 
12:48 AM
rich
 
You'll get second hand ribs and like them!
 
@Slereah I don't know what that's supposed to tell me.
 
ooo rekt
 
I dunno man
Been a while
Look up a paper on gauge gravity mb?
 
can we show ACM random book pages now
see if he gets them?
 
12:50 AM
Totally
 
let's get out the
BOOK OF GDP
CRC tables
 
@Slereah Well, what is someone to do with your mentioning that in your answer if you don't really know what it's supposed to mean?
 
@ACuriousMind hehe
 
If I had to wait to understand something to say it, we'd wait a while!
Lemme see
"GRAVITATION, GAUGE THEORIES AND DIFFERENTIAL GEOMETRY"
Let's look up that one
 
we should show ACM some real GR
@ACuriousMind What's going on there :/
I know how to get none of the terms D:
 
12:54 AM
@0celo7 `Sucks to be you, then.
 
Wait, isn't it just that a diffeomorphism at first order can always be written as $ax+b$
 
I get a random sign erro
@ACuriousMind don't you just love PDEs
so elegant
seriously, how do people write books on this crap
this is the most horrible thing ever
 
@Slereah "To first order", a diffeomorphism is $x\mapsto x+\epsilon \xi(x)$ for $\xi$ a vector field. (The Lie algebra associated to the group of diffeomorphisms is precisely the Lie algebra of vector fields)
 
So it is fine then
 
No, I have no idea how to relate that in a precise manner to the general affine group
 
1:02 AM
@ACuriousMind was my rambling about the smallness of a tensor sensical
at all?
 
@0celo7 No.
 
because I might be going insane
@ACuriousMind :(
so "this tensor is small" is a well-defined notion
 
@0celo7 Not without further context, but no one ever said it was.
You just began to ramble about "smallness" when it was really just an offhand remark, not meant to be rigorous.
 
@Slereah what reference are you going to use for the Cauchy problem
Choquet-Bruhat is the modern reference
 
Dunno
 
1:08 AM
@d3075: obe? Why the name change?
 
We'll see!
 
@ACuriousMind idk
 
hello @d3075
you new here?
 
yeah.
who are you people?
 
I'm the local woo salesman. @Slereah is my partner in crime.
@ACuriousMind Is the voice of reason.
 
1:10 AM
Everyone always says that.
 
Hm
Rovelli doesn't list diffeomorphism as being a local Poincaré symmetry
 
@ACuriousMind That you're the voice of reason?
Of course, without you we'd be discussing even more stupid shit :D
@Slereah What does Rovelli talk about?
 
quantum gravity
I guess I'll need to reread Carlip in more details
 
is it a mathy book?
or physicsy
 
Define physicsy
It's pretty mathy
but about physics
 
1:13 AM
@Slereah something a math person would be interested in
 
@d3075 Better color, perhaps? ;)
 
2:13 AM
heheh
Genealogical link between the Queen of England and Mohammed
Via Spanish monarchy, not too surprising
Apparently via Zaida of Seville, the muslim mistress of Alfonso VI
Well, via 5 different lines even
Then again from what I've read, you are basically related to everyone from 1500 years ago in Eurasia
"A descent from Genghis Khan was proposed by Iain Moncreiffe in Royal Highness that requires descent of Thocomerius, Voivode of Wallachia, from Jöchi (presuming parentage from Mengu-Timur, possibly identifying Thocomerius with Toqta, Khan of the Blue Horde[11] or one of his brothers), which is controversial. However, further on, this connection leads to Francis, Duke of Teck (shown in the first chart) through the half-brother of Dracula as proposed by Moncreiffe and Gerald Paget."
Oh god
The Queen is a vampire
Oh Dracula
Such style
it would be fun if they made a Dracula movie where Dracula actually looked like Vlad the Impaler
 
2:49 AM
@Slereah are you still up
 
maybe
 
@ACuriousMind yeah it's a lighter shade of blue.
 
@d3075 ??
 
3:13 AM
Man, people bother me when I say time travel might be possible, they bother me when I say it's probably impossible
Can't catch a break
 
its woo
 
Conifold seems to feel strongly about it
 
how can a second rate manifold have feelings
 
Hi guys. does operators in quantum mechanics has physics meaning?
 
@Shing ...what?
 
3:24 AM
say $\hat{X}f(x)=xf(x)$
is hat X a physics process?
I know it is not measuring, but I am so seduced to think that hat X has a physics meaning / is a physics process, but I have no idea what exactly it is
(f(x) is a wave function)
 
It is a measurement, yes
The measurement of the position
 
but I was reading "acting on a wave function with an operator has nothing to do with measuring observable." what does the author mean?
 
Source maybe?
 
Out of context, that makes little sense.
 
my lecture notes.
um...
 
3:33 AM
Bit hard to say then
 
one second
 
When you want to figure out what happens when you measure an observable, the first thing you do is figure out what happens when you act on a wave function with the operator corresponding to the observable
 
The expectation value of the operator gives you the probability distribution of the measurement, if that is what he meant
 
So it definitely has something to do with it. It's not identical, but it's definitely involved
 
so if I measure a wavefunction it collapse, and then I immediately measure the collapsed wavefunction again, the second action can be thought as the hat X?
 
3:38 AM
Yeah, after a measurement you can treat the state as being the appropriate measured eigenstate of the corresponding Hermitian operator
 
yes
 
I see I think the lecturer just wanted make sure us knowing wavefunction collapse.
thanks guys
 
It's a little trickier for so-called eigenstates of position, because of some mathematical details, but basically yeah.
The math is cleaner if you're talking about, say, spin states.
A so-called eigenstate of position can't be normalized in the usual way (setting its norm equal to 1)
And then you have to ask what happens to that state a short but finite time in the future. It's messy.
Then there's the infinite energy thing.
 
It is best to do measurements on like
 
so far the math is kind of confusing to me. but I guess it will get better as long as I finish studying linear algebra
 
3:45 AM
compact support sets
 
Or with a finite precision of position measurement, so it ends up in a Gaussian instead of a delta function. Yeah.
 
yeah those are even easier
Coherent states
They are the best approximation of a point particle
 
I actually think that teaching QM starting from wave functions instead of starting from linear algebra is a mistake.
 
I prefer it actually
 
These annoying details about delta functions and unbounded operators get in the way.
 
3:47 AM
Less mathematical baggage to deal with
Well the math is identical, in the end
 
Interesting...I find there to be much more baggage in the wave function approach.
 
$L^2(R^n)$ is a Hilbert space
Not if you do it casually
 
Yeah, you can sweep that stuff under the rug and deal with it properly in an applied math course.
I just find the matrix algebra to be much cleaner conceptually.
 
It is powerful once you know how to use it
But for an intro I think it's a bit much
For an introduction I think it's usually best to keep the physics close to mind
Doing a whole step to learn about Hilbert spaces in between is a bit distracting
I'm not too fond when courses don't explain why they construct a math structure
 
See, I had the opposite experience. When they taught us wave functions first, and how we should be thinking of differential operators in linear algebra terms, I found all the calculus stuff to be extra conceptual baggage that got in the way of understanding.
I didn't find quantum intuitive until I saw the linear algebra approach.
 
3:51 AM
Well you still need calculus when doing matrix mechanics
 
Yeah, but I guess what I'm saying is it's a matter of what you emphasize. To me, the fact that QM is about linear operators and Hilbert spaces etc., regardless of whether you're talking about wave functions in some continuous space, is at the heart of it.
And you're not always talking about wave functions. Feynmann manages to get a lot of mileage out of a two-state abstract system.
 
You can do wavefunctions on a two state system :p
 
Of course. But you don't have to, is my point.
To my way of thinking, the real-space behavior is something that clouds the fundamentals.
The states can remain abstract, and you can still get to an awful lot of the conceptual framework of QM. Well, if you're Feynmann you can.
 
Why even have states :p
No need for states with path integrals
 
I heard about a QM book that did everything in terms of density operators, and never asserted that a particle has a quantum state. I never located the book, but it sounds like an interesting approach.
 
4:01 AM
There's tons of different approaches
 
user54412
4:28 AM
@0celo7 Shouldn't you be using the operator norm?
 
5:24 AM
0
Q: Be careful, 95% of the answers and comments are written by an insane man named Daniel Sank

gorilos For most serious physicists this site is of no use because 95% of the answers and comments are written by the above mentioned insane man. However, also they are pure rubbish, the comments of D. T. Sank can mislead high school students who can fail exams because of this monster determined to c...

o_O
 
6:00 AM
@DanielSank You're a pretty busy man, it seems.
 
user116211
Hmmm... seems that DanielSank is famous:(
 
6:20 AM
@Danu Try:
Under no circumstances look at anything else on that site as anyone under 50 could suffer severe psychological trauma :-)
2
 
@dmckee So weird. What the hell?
 
@DanielSank I'm jealous now. All the other frequent answerers have been linked to you. Why not me? :-)
 
@JohnRennie Frequent answers?
 
Oops
 
answerers?
 
6:24 AM
@ChrisWhite :-) Though since he's giving away the fruits of his labour for free I can't complain.
 
@JohnRennie Listen, if you'd like to be the "psychopathic monster", you're more than welcome.
 
I appreciate this sort of thing can become massively annoying, even if it starts off seeming just faintly ridiculous.
We are deleting the posts as fast as we see them. Lots of us are looking out for them, so they get vaped pretty quickly.
 
@JohnRennie I noticed that. Thanks. I did get a screenshot of the last one to send to my colleagues. They got a kick out of it.
 
It beggars belief someone would do this. What on Earth do they think they will achieve?
 
@JohnRennie Uh... I dunno... maybe they're jealous of my sock puppets.
 
6:30 AM
he knows
@JohnRennie obviously is you
 
>.<
 
No hang on, we've already established that I'm really Miley Cyrus.
 
Who is Daniel Sank
checkmate
 
@JohnRennie Woah, that's amazing. By transitivity of equality, then I am also Miley Cyrus.
::looks at self::
Uh, nope.
 
6:56 AM
@JohnRennie my guess is that it's gone far beyond achieving anything at this point
 
7:31 AM
@Danu &all Good morning. I am not trying to be good friend here. I am just trying to understand things. I think the situation is now, that so far no one has explained the mechanism of Gravity. Only the understanding of it's influences has developed further. This simply means that we should try keep all the options open. Otherwice Le Sage can become new Erastothenes. In some 2000 Years.
 
@JohnRennie I guess just some kids get their feelings hurt. but as far as I have noticed, Daniel is a kind man, so I even doubt my own guess.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:38 AM
I have the actual proof that all many users are sockpuppets of DS, using the famous $9\cdot 10^3$ relation.
 
@yuggib show us!
 
Let $P_{SE}$ be the set of all physics stack exchange users, denoted as couples $(u,r)$ where $u$ is the user name, and $r$ is the reputation. The famous $9\cdot 10^3$ relation $\sim$ tells us that $(\forall (u,r)\in P_{SE})(\forall (v,s)\in P_{SE})(u,r)\sim (v,s)\leftrightarrow r\geq 9\cdot 10^3 \land s\geq 10^3$. Of course all the members of the equivalence class $[(DS,9,128)]$ can be thought as equivalent, i.e. the same person.
Therefore ACM, JR, DZ, DMCK and so on are all equivalent to DS, i.e. DS itself.
ok, I missed a $9\cdot$ after $s$ here above...
of course it has to be there
if else it is not an equivalence relation...
 
9:01 AM
anyhow, it is a very simple proof; I wonder why no one else apart from that genius user came up with that.
 
9:16 AM
 
 
1 hour later…
10:34 AM
@JohnRennie Done. Just run the definitions at the start once when you open the notebook, then start computing whatever you like ;)
 
11:06 AM
@JokelaTurbine Protip: Don't misuse Feynman videos for arguing against general relativity being a serious theory of gravity.
 
I once trying to approach the issue of elementary or GUT magnetic monopoles this way, but so far the only thing that can serve as a counterexample is if isolated fractional charges are detected, as according to this PSE discussion:
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/169903/experiments-or-phenomenon-to-falsify-the-existence-of-monopoles
 
11:46 AM
@Danu Excellent, thanks. I'll try it now.
 
11:59 AM
@yuggib You've just proven you're just Daniel, too, right?
 
nope
I have $r<9\cdot 10^3$
maybe in a year or so ;-)
everyone could indeed transform in Daniel, given a sufficient amount of time
following the proof, I mean
 
@yuggib Oh, didn't see your correction. But then your proof doesn't correctly reflect the insanity at work here, users with less than 9k reputation have been claimed to be socks.
 
I understood it was mostly concerning high-rep users
we have to find a different equivalence relation then
 
For some reason e.g. Gert is also supposedly a sock, and he has only 4k
 
poor Gert...I hope at least he is not dirty
 
12:21 PM
Hello sock-puppets. :D
 
::A dozen puppets menacingly waddle towards @TheDarkSide::
Wait...can sock-puppets even waddle?
 
@ACuriousMind Perhaps the master (Daniel Sank) can answer that!
Anyways, I dropped by to ask about something I saw long time back in this room:
Jun 16 at 14:20, by Chris White
@ACuriousMind And I'm reasonably sure various people over the years have written scripts to alert them if keywords are mentioned in chat.
So, @ChrisWhite and all others, where should I look for any ready-made scripts to install if I want to be alerted for if certain words are mentioned on a certain website?
 
I don't think you can do that for any website. SE offers an API for devs, I think, so there's a premade interface for obtaining the chat messages (and other posts) for those scripts here. I could be wrong, though
Or were you asking about SE?
 
Oh. No, I was trying to pose this as a more general question having applications outside of SE, e.g. for setting up my own alerts for certain stuff posted on a website.
e.g. if a website says - Plumber wanted, and if I'm a plumber, I would like to be alerted. (Giving a stupid lowly example, that can be generalized to job-hunting, post-doc hunting etc.)
 
Yeah, I think that has to be tailored to the specific website
 
12:31 PM
(Of course, there are other ways around this problem)
@ACuriousMind Exactly. So, the technologically retarded me is asking: any way I can find something readymade which I can install and be happy?
 
Not that I know of, but then again, I wouldn't even know how to find or write those scripts for SE, sooooo...wait for someone more versed in this :)
 
12:55 PM
@Danu It works. Thanks :-)
 
1:09 PM
I cannot get this f****g calculation to work. Have we got any GR experts in the house?
3
Never mind, I'm off to have lunch and rest my brain.
 
1:31 PM
@ACuriousMind Sorry I had to urgently rush out of the chatroom. Many thanks for your inputs, you certainly helped me phrase the question better. :)
As an aside:
30 mins ago, by John Rennie
I cannot get this f****g calculation to work. Have we got any GR experts in the house?
Apocalypse is here!!!
John Rennie seeking "GR experts" !!!
:: screams in horror ::
 
1:46 PM
@JohnRennie not an expert, obviously, but maybe I can help...
 
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/220296/what-is-the-medium-of-probability-waves
That question reminds me of Something:

As you noted, photons do not need a medium, yet are an electromagnetic wave. Ergo, waves do not need a medium to propagate. In a vaguely similar way, probability is not a physical thing, and does not propagate. Yes, quantum mechanics seems spooky at first - relax and play with it and you will get the feel for it. – Jon Custer 7 mins ago

===========
So when we say probability current, it is just a mathematical formalism, and there's really nothing about a flux of
 
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