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1:00 PM
oh I don't know anything about those, carry on
thought you meant is "never" separable
 
yeah nobody does it seems
It's not too commonly used
Although it does help in some cases
Like for two parallel currents
 
@Slereah So basically, you take your alleged nonzero vector field $X$ and construct its unit vector field $X/|X|$
call that $X$ again
Then you define a smooth homotopy $F:S^n\times[0,1]\to S^n,(x,t)\mapsto x\cos \pi t+X(x)\sin \pi t$
because $X\cdot X=1$, $X$ is a map from $S^n$ to itself so this makes sense
But $F(x,0)=x$ and $F(x,1)=-x$, so this is a homotopy between the identity and the antipodal map
 
@DavidZ There's a display bug at work
11
Q: What is going on with this deleted answer?

E.P.I'm a bit confused by this Q&A pair: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/253062/dimensional-analysis-problem (10k on Physics, or dev team.) The question looks like this: Of note: The answer was posted 10 minutes after the question. The answer was upvoted at some point. The question ...

 
Please stop google
 
It's showing a fictional event, "deleted by David Z on June 1" because of how the database handles that corner case
 
1:06 PM
@Slereah ?
 
I know the bipolar Helmholtz isn't separable
what I want now is the solution
if it exists
 
It's also not entirely clear what that should show
The convention is that answers that are deleted because the question is deleted show "deleted on [question deletion timestamp]", with no attribution
But here that would also be misleading
 
@EmilioPisanty gotcha, thanks
 
I mean it's just the same equation in a different coordinate system
 
@DavidZ The main question at this point is why you undeleted the answer
 
1:08 PM
@Slereah now you know the proof
 
if it was in a deleted thread to begin with
 
so you are allowed to use that theorem
 
Wouldn't a change of coordinate just give you the solutions, maybe
 
@EmilioPisanty that's because our homework policy says that full answers to homework questions get temporarily deleted. It wouldn't be a temporary deletion if I never went back and undeleted it. Do note that until just now I had no idea there was an automatic process that deletes answers to deleted questions.
 
@DavidZ Yeah, that's what I figured
but it still has essentially zero impact
 
1:10 PM
I think I need "Field Theory Handbook, Including Coordinate Systems, Differential
Equations and their Solutions"
 
Were you aware that the question itself was deleted when you undeleted the answer?
i.e. did you do it at the question itself, or have you got some mod console that lets you do it directly, for example?
If the question is deleted then the answer is also inaccessible to <10k anyway
 
@EmilioPisanty It matters if the question is later edited, reviewed, and undeleted; I think it also makes a different for answer bans. Or at least I thought so.
 
@DavidZ Yeah, OK, fair enough
 
I don't remember that specific case but I probably knew the question was deleted when I undeleted the answer. There's no special console or shortcut or anything that helps with handling complete homework answers.
 
@DavidZ OK, yeah, if you did it directly at the question page then everything would have had a big pink background
 
1:14 PM
I mean, it's not news to me that many of the homework answers I undelete are on deleted questions. I've known that ever since the beginning.
 
@DavidZ Yeah, for sure
Only thing that's a mystery at this point is the pending undelete vote on that answer.
 
@DavidZ ...why do you undelete answers on deleted questions
 
oh noooo
this book also has no bipolar coordinates
 
what book
 
@EmilioPisanty Yeah. I'd guess it might be related to the display bug; perhaps the automatic deletion process doesn't reset the undeletion vote count.
 
1:18 PM
did you check THE book on wave equations
 
user116211
@Slereah just throw that book.
 
@0celo7 see above
 
the one that even HE cites
 
Field Theory Handbook: Including Coordinate Systems, Differential Equations and Their Solutions
 
@DavidZ answer bans?
 
1:18 PM
I think I might have to work in like
cartesian or spherical
maybe elliptical
Wormhole identification will be less practical but at least you can solve equations in it
 
@Slereah I'm using this crappy definition:
A smooth \emph{vector field} is a smooth function $v:M\to \Bbb R^k$ such that $v(x)\in T_xM\subset\Bbb R^k$ for each $x\in M$.
Why can't Milnor define it as an element of $\Gamma(TM)$ :(
$\Gamma$ is such a pretty letter
@Slereah what happened to you learning QFT
 
@DavidZ I think the auto-deletion is simply the internal part of soft-deleting the entire thread.
 
Like I ever stay on a thing
I might go back to it later
now that I have all the NEETbucks
 
Can you recall if there already was an undelete vote when you undeleted it?
 
@Slereah how are you funding yourself
mom's basement?
 
1:21 PM
nope
 
dad's husband's basement?
 
@EmilioPisanty I couldn't say, but if there were, I would expect it to show up in the timeline
 
still the ol' flat
 
@Slereah but how do you have money
and why can't you keep a job
 
↑ relevant part of the timeline
 
1:23 PM
I was too cool for this world B)
 
Not entirely sure how to interpret it
The timeline daily summaries typically appear attributed to the start of the day nowadays
I think
at least for up and down votes
 
@ACuriousMind Can you please explain how to "see" the indices of the vector fields on page 33? I don't get it.
 
Oh, I figured the one undelete vote in the summary was mine
 
So I read it as some undeletion vote on the same day as the manual undeletion
potentially, I guess?
Not sure at all how it normally displays
yeah
that's how e.g. this one physics.stackexchange.com/questions/37660/projectile-motion/… looks on the timeline
But the vote is still active on the answer
OK, yeah, I've got the pattern
same behaviour
fictional deletion event attributed to you
fictional pending undelete vote
 
Makes sense, that would be the bug in action
 
1:40 PM
@DavidZ Yeah. Really bizarre bug. But I guess that's what happens if you go down to weird corner cases like mods going into the catacumbs and manually undeleting stuff that remains deleted anyway ;-).
Thanks for the clarifications.
 
Does it occur to you guys that the process of computing a volume integral is very similar to 3D printing something?
 
@Secret Yes.
 
2:43 PM
@Secret so if I want to integrate something I can program it into a 3D printer then weigh the finished object? :-)
 
Theoretically yes, as the principles are similar

Assuming the raw materials stick together with no holes, then volume = weight / density of material
https://threesixty360.wordpress.com/2009/06/18/calculus-demonstration-3d-printing/
Here's another guuy who has the same thought that 3D printing and volme intergrals are related
 
@ACuriousMind Ok, I guess I don't really get what the index is. In particular, I have no clue how to actually calculate it.
 
Is it true that velocity & mass both cause gravitational attraction? (since velocity $\propto$ energy $=$ mass?)
 
@Obliv yes
but that's the wrong reason
it's because mass*velocity=momentum
 
@JohnRennie Actually, given what you just said, 3D printing will be a nice experiment for a calculus class to illustrate the concepts of a volume integral

as many researches have shown that a hands on experiment on a concept can help retention of the knowledge
 
2:50 PM
that's why light is affected by gravity, it has momentum
 
@0celo7 stationary objects with mass still produce gravitational attraction though, right?
 
yes, because they have mass
mass and momentum product gravitational attraction, separately
 
photons dont have rest mass. so velocity is the primary factor in the gravitational pull of photons, no?
 
@Obliv See:
32
Q: If a 1kg mass was accelerated close to the speed of light would it turn into a black hole?

shopsincI'm a big fan of the podcast Astronomy Cast and a while back I was listening to a Q&A episode they did. A listener sent in a question that I found fascinating and have been wondering about ever since. From the show transcript: Arunus Gidgowdusk from Lithuania asks: "If you took a one kilog...

 
@Obliv no, it's momentum
photon momentum is not mv momentum
 
2:52 PM
Hi :)
 
but photons dont have rest mass. it's relativistic momentum which is because of velocity. If photons werent moving nearly as fast, their relativistic mass lowers, no? @0celo7
 
sorry for interrupt
 
> If photons werent moving nearly as fast
What
 
hi @2physics
 
the momentum of a photon is...uh...what is it
I'm not a physicist
 
2:53 PM
@0celo7 isn't it true that an object gains relativistic mass as it gains more velocity?
 
@Obliv I don't know what "relativistic mass" is
That's not a term used in physics
or math
 
@0celo7 And what do I have to do with that statement of fact?
 
@ACuriousMind Can you please help me get an intuition for it?
I am asking you for conceptual help
i.e. you can't VTC as homework
 
@Obliv The term relativistic mass is highly misleading and not used any more
 
oh thanks @johnR I'll stop using it then
 
2:55 PM
It originated by defining the relativistic mass as $m_r = p/v$.
 
@Secret ...if you look at the definition of a Riemann (or Lebesgue) integral it is just adding up the "layers" of the line/area/volume covered by the function being integrated.
 
Alright @0celo7 as an object gains velocity, it gains momentum (both mass and velocity increases, right?) then its gravitational pull is increased. So, velocity directly affects gravitational pull because its increasing the mass? Is that the right reason?
 
> both mass and velocity increases, right?
No, mass is a constant
 
Where $p$ is the momentum of a relatistic particle, which is $p = \gamma m v$.
$m$ is the invariant mass.
 
Although I'm still not sure what the definition of mass of a particle is in GR
 
2:56 PM
@ACuriousMind yeah, that's why it is basically 3D printing
 
@JohnRennie ?
 
@0celo7 what? That's correct isn't it?
 
is it the Newtonian mass in a local inertial frame with small forces/velocities?
@JohnRennie Oh I don't know anything about SR, couldn't tell you
I'm wondering what the definition of mass in GR is
 
I get paranoid whenever you comment on any of my statements :-)
 
mass of a test particle, that is
not of spacetime
 
2:59 PM
physics.stackexchange.com/questions/2229/… this answer uses the term relativistic mass so it confused me
specifically "In other words, a photon does have relativistic mass proportional to its momentum."
so it has 0 invariant mass, but nonzero mass? how does that make sense?
 
@JohnRennie so...what's the definition of mass
 
@0celo7 if mass is constant, please explain to me how something with 0 mass can curve spacetime :D
 
because a photon has momentum
 
0*anything is 0 though. How are you defining momentum?
 
the photon momentum is...uh
$E/c$?
 
3:03 PM
how are you defining $E$?
 
where $E= h\nu$?
 
ah ok
 
$\nu$ is the frequency
 
what is the h?
 
Planck constant
6.something x 10^-something
in something units
 
3:04 PM
@Obliv because the curvature (aka the Einstein tensor) is proportional to the stress-energy tensor.
 
I haven't taken chemistry in years, I don't know this shit
 
lol
 
The mass makes up one component of the stress-energy tensor, but there are 9 other components related to moemntum and pressure.
 
@JohnRennie "the curvature" is the Riemann tensor ;)
@JohnRennie riddle me this...if you need energy and momentum to curve spacetime how do black holes work
 
Yes, but I wanted to emphasise the role of the stress-energy tensor.
 
3:06 PM
how do vacuum solutions work
there's nothing there to curve it
 
Well there is an ADM mass ...
 
what about non-asymptotically flat vacuum solutions
 
@0celo7 wait E = hv? So then can't the mass of a particle be attributed to a frequency? How does that work..
 
@0celo7 are there any?
 
$E = mc^2 + ... = hv$
 
3:07 PM
Gravitational wave I suppose
 
@JohnRennie put a black hole on $\mathbb R\times S^3$?
@JohnRennie or that
@JohnRennie Yeah, how do gravitational waves work
What is curving spacetime where the wave is
@Obliv $E=h\nu$ is a quantum mechanical fact
I think
And $p=E/c$ is a relativistic fact
 
@0celo7 you could say the same about an EM wave. Both waves need a source to get going, but once created they are self sustaining.
 
@JohnRennie right, and how does that work
 
It's the same energy, isn't it? @0celo7 so shouldn't $\nu \propto m$?
 
@Obliv what
the equation is $E^2=p^2+m^2$, so for $m=0$ you get $E=p$ and by dimensional analysis $p=E/c$
 
3:10 PM
oh shit
 
@Obliv the de Broglie wavelength is h/p.
 
well okay, so $p \propto \nu$?
 
then that one depressed dude taught us $E=h\nu$
so $p=h\nu/c$
Or, in proper units, $p=\omega$
That's probably wrong but I don't care
 
@Obliv I don't think so. The trouble is that the phase velocity isn't constant so $\lambda\nu$ is not a constant.
 
I wanna share a quote here and please tell me your opinion about it in a viewpoint based on physics. may I?
 
3:11 PM
@Obliv no?
 
@2physics fire away.
 
@ACuriousMind So you have no desire to help me understand the vector index conceptually?
 
@johnR phase velocity? So $\lambda \nu$ is dependent on something else besides $p$?
 
Oh wait a 1D sphere is just a circle, I might be able to calculate this myself
 
Whenever a theory appears to you as the only possible one, take this as a sign that you have neither understood the theory nor the problem which it was intended to solve. (Karl Popper)
 
3:13 PM
@JohnRennie Hey do you know equations for vector fields that look like this?
how about
 
For light $\lambda \nu = c$, which is obviously constant. For de broglie waves $\lambda \nu = v$ where $v$ is the phase velocity, but $v$ is not constant. Offhand I can't remember the expression for the phase velocity.
 
@2physics I think it's a good quote. Makes sense since there can be many different theories that predict the same thing.
 
@JohnRennie I don't know, @JohnDuffield seems pretty sure $c$ is variable.
He has some pretty good evidence
After all, you're not smarter than Einstein
 
@2physics to be honest that seems the sort of trite and meaningless comment philosophers say when they have no real work to do.
 
3:15 PM
@0celo7 I think intuitively it's just something that assigns sign to the zeros of a vector field - sources get a +1 and then every other zero gets (-1)^k corresponding to how many directions you have to "invert" to make it a source.
 
damn @johnR savaged
 
@JohnRennie that's a trite and meaningless comment
 
@Obliv that Karl Popper - what a jerk :-)
 
@0celo7 You might have noticed that I did not write anything for the last twenty minutes in this chat and was simply busy :P
 
When do philosophers ever have real work to do
@ACuriousMind yeah yeah
You just repeated what the books and wiki say, though
GP says:
 
3:16 PM
@0celo7 well there you go. Why pay a philosopher when I can spout meaningless rubbish for free
 
:D thanks for both of your comments
 
@2physics in physics a theory is a mathematical model ...
... based on simplifying approximations.
 
@ACuriousMind Well, GP says it's basically how many times the vector field goes around in a circle as you go around the zero in a circle
(in 2 dimensions)
But I don't know how to prove that
 
Physicists know perfectly well that every theory is contingent
 
I should probably work with some vector fields on $\Bbb R^2$
@JohnRennie not Lumo
It's literally string theory or intellectual garbage for him
 
3:18 PM
So Popper's comment may impress other philosophers but isn't going to win him any admirers in the physics community
 
Actually, this case highlight the really key axiom need to be broken:

"You cannot have division by zero unless you violate distributive law"

Counterexample where violate additive identity does not save this algebraic structure

Suppose 0+e=0

Then e(0+e)=e0=e
e(0+e)=e0+0=e+0=0
Therefore e=0

Suppose 0+e=a (a is in the set)
e(0+e)=ea=e
e(0+e)=e0+0=e+0=a
Therefore e=a

The above conjecture is supported in that all proposed division by zero numebr system so far, the distributive law is always violated. Hope some day I can prove this rigoriously
 
@Secret Oh lordie
Explaining that was the worst thing ever
In German middle school we had to present homework every day (or whenever we had class)
 
@0celo7 Um...isn't that the definition of the index (as the degree from a sphere around the zero to the unit sphere)?
 
and one of the homework problems was to explain why div by zero is a contradiction
@ACuriousMind I don't see how that matches what you said, sadly.
I guess I don't get what the degree is?
I know it's just the sign of the determinant of the Jacobian
 
@0celo7 It doesn't directly - that the definition of the index as the degree of a map conincides with the assigment of signs to zero according to how far they are from being sources is a non-trivial statement.
 
3:21 PM
But I'll be dammed if that means anything to me
 
@JohnRennie That's true but for example you imagine there could be some other quantities which we are not aware of yet, and can be used to find a new way of describing phenomena. New theories I mean.
 
@Secret So, anyway, I think the solution was supposed to be something like what you did
Or maybe that because $0a=0b$ if you divide by $0$ you get $a=b$
you know, something trivial
Well we had this mnemonic for division
 
@2physics well yes, that was my point. All physicists know that a theory, e.g. GR, is a working apprximation that will (probably) cease to apply in some circumstances.
 
It had something to do with...patients and doctors, maybe
 
@2physics well the theories that are made based on the observations we make, are nearly perfectly accurate in predicting what we observe. If we observe something different, then we are no longer describing the same phenomena. So Karl Popper is misunderstanding the purpose of theories.
 
3:23 PM
@ACuriousMind Would you happen to know what I'm talking about?
 
@0celo7 no idea
 
the Divisor was the Doktor and the Quotient was the Patient
 
@0celo7 why did you learn so much GR if you're studying to become a nuclear engineer?
 
Fuck, I need to look up what these terms mean
@Secret I said something like if the doctor (divisor) is not there (=0) then the patient (quotient) might as well just leave so it doesn't exist
and I was laughed out so badly
I was completely shit at math for the next 3 years, got 3 and 4 grades
My dad said I'd end up studying liberal arts like my sister
Not an engineer like my brother
Was a pretty bad time in my life
...
 
@2physics That's not what Popper means (I believe). He means that there is never a unique theory to explain a given set of observations (e.g. because you can just add stuff to the theory that predicts things that are as of yet inaccessible to experiments; but it might also be that a totally different theoretical framework gives the exact same predictions, like Bohmian mechanics and standard QM are supposed to). You cannot prove "truth" of theories, that is the core point of his falsificationism.
 
3:27 PM
@0celo7 Well, if our proofs are correct, we also know why and how no doctors means no patients besides the obvious reason
 
@Secret the point was I used an analogy in a Rigorous proof
@Obliv I was bored one afternoon
 
@ACuriousMind that's exactly what I mean
 
@2physics You talked about "there could be new quantites we are not yet aware of" - but that need not be the case at all. The exact same observed quantites always have more than one possible theory describing them.
There is no need for something "hidden" or unknown to exist for this to be true
@Obliv lol, you have no idea who Karl Popper is, have you?
 
nope @acuriousmind
I got so sidetracked because of this bullshit energy-momentum description of gravity @0celo7 whereas you could care less about the consequences of GR and decided to learn it simply because you were 'bored' :DDD wat
 
user116211
Can any operator be self-adjoint but not Hermitian?
 
3:33 PM
@Obliv He was a philosopher who was pretty integral to the development of the philosophy of science and knowledge in the beginning 20th century. You may say many things about his specific views, but that he "is misunderstanding the purpose of theories" is a...bold claim.
 
user116211
Hmm, I remember @Slereah once mentioned that, damn ;/
 
@ACuriousMind that was just an example what I mentioned
 
@acuriousmind "Whenever a theory appears to you as the only possible one, take this as a sign that you have neither understood the theory nor the problem which it was intended to solve." seems to me like he disagrees that only one theory can predict the phenomena observed. What he classifies as different theories will allow me to judge if he misunderstands theories, I guess it was a bold claim since I don't know what he considers different theories.
 
@Obliv Of course he disagrees that only one theory can predict the phenomena observed. For instance, that's exactly what standard QM and Bohmian mechanics do. Or, less controversially, Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics as opposed to Newtonian mechanics for (idealized) classical mechanics
 
Actually I just realised the epsilon example above demonstrated something even stronger than division by zero

The conjecture is saying that for any set S with distributive law (and not necessary have inverses or identity) 0n=0 for all n in the set

So the doctor proof "0a=0b implies a=b" if divided by zero is a subset of the conjecture where 0*something=1
 
3:37 PM
and btw about what @JohnRennie said, you know most of great scientists were always good philosophers too
or maybe they were great scientists because they were good philosophers :D
 
@2physics ...I don't think you'll find many philosophers agreeing with that statement :P
 
@2physics I seem to have my grumpy hat on today - you should probably ignore most of what I say unless it's strictly technical.
 
@JohnRennie lol
 
@Obliv It was a bad boredom
 
@ACuriousMind descartes isn't enough to say many of them?? :D
 
3:40 PM
I had to do something interesting while sitting in class @Obliv
 
@0celo7 what is your definition of "interesting"
 
@Secret wtf is "a set with distributive law"? Are you talking about a ring (or rng, if it doesn't have an identity, or semi-ring, if it doesn't have additive inverses)?
 
@acuriousmind Yeah I mean if this quote is meant to address that there can be multiple formulations to predict the same thing at different levels of precision, then sure. I think I misinterpreted "nor the problem which it was intended to solve." as a statement on the accuracy to the 'truth' of a theory, instead of the accuracy to the predictions of a theory.
 
Note that in a semi-ring $0\cdot n = 0$ does not necessarily hold if you do not include it in the axioms.
 
@ACuriousMind I am not sure, it is clearly a sub<insert suitable word> of magma, since it has elements with a binary operation that is closed. But it does not have additive and multiplicative inverses nor identity
 
3:44 PM
@Secret Yeah, that's a semi-ring without identity elements (which is a structure so useless it doesn't have a name :P) and your conjecture is false for it because it is already false for semi-rings.
 
@acuriousmind not sure if that made sense. Basically, it came off as an attack on the validity of theories since it seemed like he was proclaiming that the problem to be understood was subjective/dynamic
 
@ACuriousMind why "ring"
why not "natural set"
 
@0celo7 what?
 
why not "Euler thing"
 
Oh
Pretty sure rings are rings because the prototypical example are the cyclic rings $\mathbb{Z}/n\mathbb{Z}$.
@Obliv I have no idea how you got that from that statement :P
 
3:49 PM
me neither. helps to know he was a smart guy
@acuriousmind to be fair, my first thought was: "I think it's a good quote. Makes sense since there can be many different theories that predict the same thing."
 
@Obliv Life isn't fair.
And Bajoran certainly isn't.
 
@ACuriousMind
Suppose a identityless semiring S such that
0+a=b
0a=c
Then
0(0+a)=0^2+0a=0^2+c

0b
Thus there exists c=/= expressions of b or a such that
0^2+c=0b is true

Thus a counterexample?
 
@Secret Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense to me.
 
^
 
I had trouble coming up a counterexample you suggested
(Clarification: 0,a,b,c are some elements in S)
 
3:55 PM
@Secret We know that
 

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