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2:00 PM
@0celo7 Try this paper.
It was an attempt to take all the existing theory literature and compose it into something like a "user's guide" or "road to success" for the groups who actually want to build a quantum computer.
 
@ACuriousMind No, I was not defending it.
It's just a fact.
@Slereah Literally the first one in the book.
@DanielSank I don't know those words.
@DanielSank ...topological states of matter?
looks at physics lecture notes
cries
Why are the first year classes so shitty?
@DanielSank sounds interesting
 
Just as a side note, topological states can be created in the lab.
BECs with controlled generation of quantum vortices are a topological state (technically a state featuring topological defects), and have been around since the late 90's.
I am also certain that topological insulators have been realised too.
 
is "topological state" a fancy word for topological defects
 
2:15 PM
Î have never gotten anyone to give me a better definition of "topological state" than "state that is described by a topological quantum number". When I ask what a "topological quantum number" is, they typically start listing examples.
 
No, just the quantum vortex states I mentioned are topological defects. Topological state seems like a blanket term for any quantum state featuring topological properties. For me, I know my system has topological defect, but as for other systems I'm afraid I can't help.
 
Zeidler defined "topological quantum number" as a quantum number that depends only on the topology.
 
@0celo7 The topology of what, though.
 
@ACuriousMind The system :P
 
In my case, the phase of the wavefunction.
 
2:18 PM
@LeeJ.O'Riordan are you a quantum computer guy?
 
Quantum degenerate gases actually (Bose-Einstein condensates).
 
hmm, what real-life applications does that have?
 
Not everything needs real-life application to be interesting. Luckily enough, these things are somewhat. Metrology, information storage, macroscopic quantum effects, superfluid turbulence, etc. In reality though I wouldn't expect to see one in your kitchen any time soon.
 
> Not everything needs real-life application to be interesting.
Not disagreeing, but I want to work in a field that has applications.
 
Well, the utility of what you work on can only be limited by what you think you can do with it. If you have a great idea, then that may make a great paper, or 3, leading to a great job, a career, etc.
Don't rule things out based on application so far. See what interests you most, then pursue that. Working towards a career in an area you aren't interested in is like a long path to suffering and misery, even if it has lots of applications.
 
2:25 PM
Listen to this wise user, @0celo7
...and come to the dark side of theory. We have cookies, but no applications.
 
@ACuriousMind hence why I am exploring
I really don't want to be stuck in Academia.
@ACuriousMind I still love theory! I just don't want to be a theoretician.
 
@0celo7 NB: You can be a theorist and not be in a university.
cf half of the IBM quantum computing team.
 
That's my plan in the near future.
Try things out, and see if they work for you. If not, move on and try something else.
 
@LeeJ.O'Riordan I understand that there are realizations in the lab, what's not been done yet is to show that topological states can be manipulated in the ways needed for information processing.
 
@DanielSank Agreed.
 
2:29 PM
@0celo7 Which words?
@0celo7 It is. Very much so.
 
@DanielSank qubit, cnot...I guess I know more than I originally thought. Is that a fully explained intro?
Or am I supposed to know what they're talking about on the first page?
 
@0celo7 Definitely supposed to know something before reading the paper.
There are zero journal articles which explain everything from the beginning.
Reading articles is really hard.
CNOT: an operation which causes a state flip on one qubit if the other is in |1>.
qubit: A quantum two level system which can be controlled well enough to process information. The word means "quantum bit".
 
Ok, so I ordered the book @alarge recommended. Waiting for the email from the library. I also downloaded two books (link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-662-43502-1, link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-1-4614-7092-2)
I probably won't read all of them.
But I need to get a grip on the terminology.
 
Yup.
Do you know "Bloch sphere"?
 
I would try link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-94-007-0171-7, but I don't know analysis!!
 
2:36 PM
Those books look very math oriented.
 
alarge recommended that.
@DanielSank Heard of it, don't know what it is.
 
@0celo7 You need to know this before starting any quantum computation stuff.
 
Nielsen and Chang is the bible. Thoroughly recommended.
 
A state of a two level system can always be written like this:
 
@0celo7 Is "the projective space of states for a two-state quantum system" something you know?
 
2:38 PM
$|\Psi\rangle = \cos(\theta / 2) |0\rangle + e^{i \phi} \sin(\theta / 2) |1\rangle$.
 
@ACuriousMind I think so
 
Jeebus Christoff, @ACuriousMind, I don't even know what that means
2
 
lol
 
@0celo7 Well, that's the Bloch sphere, and @DanielSank just gave a parametrization for it.
 
ACM is a mathematician!
I'm assuming the parameters $\theta,\phi$ are on a sphere of some sort?
 
2:40 PM
@LeeJ.O'Riordan That book is ok to learn some basic algorithms, but it lacks all discussion of physics.
@0celo7 Exactly.
Look at that parametrization.
 
@0celo7 They're angles on a sphere.
 
looks
 
It works because if you mod square the coefficients they add to 1.
 
@ACuriousMind What I meant
 
Therefore, the state is normalized, right?
 
2:41 PM
The Bloch sphere is a literal sphere $S^2$.
 
@DanielSank I think as a place to start it is a great book. I find many of the Springer books very verbose by comparison.
 
@ACuriousMind I agree!
 
You can also get arbitrary relative phase between the states via the $\phi$ parameter.
So you see it's a perfectly general way to write the state of a two level quantum system.
 
@ACuriousMind You should refresh @DanielSank and my minds by explaining the "projective ..." thingie.
I think I have a good idea of what that means.
 
If you now think about what states you get as you vary $\theta$ and $\phi$, you'll see that the parametrization has the same periodicity as a sphere.
The point is, you can think of the state of a two level system as a point on the surface of a sphere.
 
2:43 PM
@DanielSank Yeah I see all of that.
 
Ok! Now you understand quantum computation.
 
Yay
 
\(^^)/
2
 
\o
 
Why is chat eating my back slashes?
 
2:44 PM
You have TeX on.
 
@0celo7 Uh...states are rays, and going to the projective space of a Hilbert space means going to the space where all points in a ray are identified, so every point in the projective space is actually a distinct state. Every point on the Bloch sphere corresponds to a ray in $\mathbb{C}^2$.
 
@ACuriousMind omg I understood something you said
 
@0celo7 omg me too
@ACuriousMind why does this whole ray business matter?
 
I understood it the first time @DanielSank :p
 
@0celo7 Huh?
 
2:46 PM
@DanielSank "Jeebus Christoff, @ACuriousMind, I don't even know what that means" I did
that might have been a joke
dunno
 
I was half serious, half joking.
 
@DanielSank Because quantum states are vectors in Hilbert space up to a complex number $\lambda$. You get a projective Hilbert space by imposing the equivalence $|\Psi\rangle\sim\lambda|\Psi\rangle$ and taking the quotient.
 
@DanielSank Well, usually, QM is introduced as being set in a Hilbert space, but that states are rays means that the actual geometric object one should be looking at is the projective space. It's how projective representations, and thus half-integer spins arise, for example.
It's also the setting for Wigner's theorem, proving that any symmetry must be implemented as a unitary or anti-unitary operator on the original Hilbert space
 
@ACuriousMind I swear to Christ you've explained "It's how projective representations, and thus half-integer spins arise, for example." a dozen times but I still don't get it.
 
I remember Shankar's book making it pretty obvious without talking about projective spaces.
 
2:51 PM
 
@DanielSank I learned QM from him...ACM probably would not like him.
@Secret What?
 
Analysing something I saw in my dream last night with some optical principles (qualitative)

however at this moment I forgot that metal nanomaterial that when light pass through it it instead amplifies the trasmitted lgiht
I rememebr that nanomaterial was mentioned in NewScientist and sciencedaily somewhere back in 2009
have to look that up later to complete my analysis
 
@DanielSank Well, there are other things - the entangled states are not a subspace of the combined Hilbert space, but they are a subvariety of the combined projective spaces. One can also do "geometric quantization" in a way that is about finding a way to translate the classical phase space with its symplectic form into the projective Hilbert space with a Kähler structure.
 
@DanielSank I have no idea what he's talking about now.
 
@0celo7 I understood the first half.
 
2:55 PM
I'm not saying you need the projective space, but it is studied.
 
I don't recall Shankar mentioning entanglement...at all?
 
And it drives the point home that "normalization" doesn't really matter because multiplyin by a complex number is a do-nothing operation on the projective space
 
> multiplyin
ACM is hood. :P
 
@0celo7 I have no idea what that means :P
 
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111122133326.htm

Ok I guess that might be what I had in mind, except it appplies only to a narrow band of wavelengths (so e.g. white light after passing through it becomes more intense blue

and I am thinking of stacking an arrray of these together

however my optics still need some refinement to see whether my proposal actually makes sense. I will do this later when I had time
 
3:21 PM
@ACuriousMind ACM is a young thug.
@ACuriousMind I'm going to read some analysis before I go to lunch...I guarantee I'll come crying for help :/
@Slereah I really don't know what there is to show in exercise 1. in Carothers.
 
@0celo7 Really not much, I think. They just want you to take the hint and transform the definition of that supremum into the definition of the infinmum.
 
@ACuriousMind Ok.
Moving on to 2. (a)
The first inequality is due to $A$ being bounded below.
The third is due to $A$ being bounded above.
The middle is because every $a\in A$ has to be $\le \sup A$. Since $\inf A\le a\forall a$, we conclude $\inf A <\sup A$
Equality is not possible because there are two points?
 
@0celo7 I was just about to ask about that. Yes, the $<$ instead of $\leq$ comes from there being two points.
 
(b)...
oh jeez...it's totally obvious intuitively
ok, the middle $\le$ is the same reasoning as the middle $<$ in (a), except now $B$ can have a single element, so equality is possible.
Any bound for $A$ must also be a bound for $B$ by definition of subsets on $\mathbb{R}$.
But since $A$ and $B$ needn't have coinciding "smallest" and "biggest" elements, the infimum and supremum can differ.
But the smallest point of $B$ can never be smaller than the smallest point of $A$, thus establishing the first inequality. Then repeat this on the other end.
 
3:40 PM
@0celo7 Neither $B$ nor $A$ need have a "smallest point".
 
Hmm
We know that $\inf A\le a\le \sup A$, right?
And since $B$ consists of a subset of $\{a\}$, $\inf A\le b\le \sup A$.
We also have $\inf B\le b\le \sup B$.
 
@0celo7 I don't know why you are being so complicated. You already said that the infimum/supremum of $A$ are bounds for $B$. Now use the definition of infimum/supremum of $B$ as largest/smallest bound.
 
@ACuriousMind I thought I did that!
4 mins ago, by ACuriousMind
@0celo7 Neither $B$ nor $A$ need have a "smallest point".
 
Oh, I meant to say that the infimum/supremum of a set does not need to belong to the set (take, for example, any open interval).
Did you take that to mean something else?
 
Yes, but now I see what you are saying.
Ok, (c).
 
3:46 PM
If I understood correctly?
 
Yes
 
@Secret: I seriously recommend Inkscape to make graphics.
 
I think I have (b), moving on.
@ACuriousMind What is Inkscape?
 
@0celo7 I don't understand the question.
Ah. A nice program with which it is quite easy to make simple graphics
 
nonempty: $A$ has by definition an upper bound
bounded below: if we go too "low", we can find an $a\in A:a\ge \operatorname{bound}A$
$\inf B=\sup A$: by definition of supremum as the "smallest" upper bound for which $\sup A\ge a$
 
3:51 PM
@0celo7 What does "too low" mean? Can you give a lower bound for $B$?
 
@ACuriousMind the greatest lower bound of $B$ is the supremum of $A$
 
@0celo7 Exactly. (I'm asking that because such statements as "too low"without accompanying $\epsilon$ or other bounds are rarely seen in analysis ;) )
 
ok, 2. complete?
on to 3.
oh no an $\epsilon$
once again, something that is completely obvious but I don't know how to go about the rigorous proof
(i): by definition of supremum
ahhhhhhhh
$s-\epsilon$ is the $y$ from the definition at the top of the page, is it not?
@ACuriousMind
 
@0celo7 Yes
 
yay
so the definition of $\inf A$: (i) $A$ is bounded below (ii) $i=\inf A$ if for every $\epsilon> 0$ there is an $a\in A$ s.t. $a<i+\epsilon$.
 
4:27 PM
@ACuriousMind conceptually, I like these definitions better
4. we need to find a sequence $\{a_n\}$ such that $|a_n-s|<\epsilon$ for all $\epsilon$ and all $n\ge N$. $s:=\sup A$
we already know from 3. that there is always an $a$ s.t. $a> s-\epsilon$ for all $\epsilon$.
Rearranging and taking the absolute value we get $|a-s|<\epsilon$
now, this is true for some $a$, but we can always find an $a'>a$ for which this is also true
@ACuriousMind I think I've got the gist of it, how do I complete the proof?
due to the properties of the real numbers, we can then find an $a''>a'>a$, and so on, this is a possible construction of $\{a_n\}$
 
@0celo7 Well, you have to define the sequence $a_n$!
 
@ACuriousMind just make $a$ incrementally closer to $s$?
so something like $s-\frac{1}{n}$
 
@0celo7 (That's the idea, yes) Stop handwaving! ;) You have to define $a_n$.
@0celo7 Aha!
But can you guarantee that $s-\frac{1}{n}$ is in $A$?
 
does it have to start at $n=1$?
If no, then yes
 
@0celo7 I don't understand the question. Sequences $a_n$ start at $a_1$.
 
4:38 PM
just solve $s-\frac{1}{n}=\inf A$
for $n$
then increase that $n$ by one
then shift the above thing accordingly
so $a_1$ is "just above" the inf
I imagine you doubled over in pain at my "proof"
 
@0celo7 And how is that gonna lie in $A$ guaranteed? $A$ is an arbitrary subset of $\mathbb{R}$, it could be $\{-4\} \cup [100,234]$.
 
damn, did not think of that
ok, find the inf of the part connected to $s$
 
@0celo7 stop, you're thinking too complicated
Also, the part connected to $s$ could also be just one point.
 
was about to say that
 
You've already said everything you need.
Just use 3., as you already stated
@0celo7 This. Re-express it as a definition of a sequence $a_n$.
 
4:43 PM
@ACuriousMind I'm not sure how to do that
 
@0celo7 For every $\epsilon(n) = \frac{1}{n}$, you have an $a(\epsilon)$ with $\lvert a(\epsilon) - s\rvert < \epsilon$. The sequence $\{a_n := a(\epsilon(n))\}$ is the sought-after sequence.
 
I was really close
 
That's why I said "re-express" - there was no step missing
 
I thought you wanted me to construct $a_n$ explicitly
 
@0celo7 Ah, well, not in this case (but it's pretty hard to tell whether trying to construct something explicitly is the right approach or not a priori)
 
4:48 PM
5.
@ACuriousMind I'm assuming "take the limit of both sides" is not acceptable?
 
@0celo7 Nope :D
 
subtract $a$ from both sides
um
hint?
 
Well, that was a good start. Now try doing things, don't give up so quickly!
 
I can't abs both sides, can I?
 
@0celo7 Nope
 
4:55 PM
I also don't know if the sequence is increasing or decreasing
 
At least, not without knowing whether the sides are positive/negative.
 
When I read certain questions I wonder how students are going to deal with the real difficulties of life... — Massimo Ortolano 10 hours ago
 
wow, passive aggressive much
 
@0celo7: Hint: Try to prove the contraposition.
@0celo7 The --- are to indicate this has nothing to do with the rest of the discussion here.
 
@ACuriousMind ah
oh Danu mentioned that once
dude what on Earth is a contraposition
if A implies B, the contrapositive is not B implies not A?
I haven't done logic in years
 
5:01 PM
@0celo7 $(P \implies Q) \Leftrightarrow (\neg Q \implies \neg P)$
Fun fact: Many "proofs by contradiction" are actually proofs by contraposition.
Or rather, could be phrased as such and would be less awkward.
 
so we have $a_n\le b\implies a\le b$
 
@0celo7 Not exactly. $(\forall n : a_n \leq b) \implies a \leq b$.
 
you want me to show $b <a\implies b<a_n$?
@ACuriousMind yes, too lazy to write that
 
@0celo7 But it's important! What's the quantifier for $b < a_n$ in the contraposition?
 
$\forall n$?
 
5:05 PM
@0celo7 Nope, $\exists n$, which is precisely why the contraposition is easier to prove
 
aaaaaaahhh
ok then
 
It's easier to prove existence of one thing than to prove something holds for everything.
 
yes
 
So whatever you're faced with $\forall$ statement, it's a good idea to try the contraposition if your direct approach doesn't work.
 
I see
 
5:06 PM
brb, have to get food so I don't actually become a skeleton.
 
and I am home
 
5:21 PM
@ACuriousMind I don't know how to continue. I'm going to lunch but will return.
 
I like the new stackoverflow logo
 
0B3
@0celo7 @FenderLesPaul GR discussion today please?
 
What GR did u want to discuss
 
@0B3 when
 
0B3
@Slereah Basic uninteresting GR.
@0celo7 Tonight, as late as possible.
 
5:36 PM
did u know that spacetime is curved
 
0B3
@Slereah TIL. :)
 
That is a pretty broad topic!
 
@Slereah pfff duh a smooth 4-manifold with a 3+1 metric can have a nontrivial riemann curvature tensor
 
What about a 1-manifold!
HUH?
 
He got you there
 
5:41 PM
Eep! Okay you got me! I was bluffing!!!!
it's not obvious at all :(
I'm a shammmm
 
All 1-manifolds are flat D:
And all 2-manifolds have a constant curvature
Well not constant but
Variation is null
(the integral of it is, anyway)
(w/e)
(tired)
 
5:56 PM
@Slereah prove it
 
(removed)
 
0B3
(removed)
 
@0B3 I can't tonight sorry
I have a lot of new calculations to do
 
@0celo7 Well, subtract $a$ again from both sides. What can you say about the r.h.s.?
 
both sides of?
with or without n?
$b-a<0$
$b-a< a_n-a$
 
6:09 PM
@0celo7 Hm, well, I phrased that poorly
 
That's a lot of removed things!
The proof is the Gauss Bonnet theorem
 
@Slereah how
 
@0celo7 Hint: Now take $\epsilon < \lvert b - a \rvert$ and apply the definition of the limit.
 
Basically it states that $\int dV R \propto \chi$
 
I know what the theorem is
 
6:12 PM
Well $\int R dV$ is the Hilbert action
So in 2D the action is a constant
 
what
I know that
you're not answering the question
 
if you want the proof of the Gauss Bonnet theorem I don't know it
It's probably some topology shit
 
@Slereah PROVE IT
@Slereah use Atiyah-Singer
 
Ahah
I actually had to study Atiyah Singer in "preparation" of my PhD
The one I ended up not doing
 
well there is a traditional method
but using Atiyah-Singer is more fundamental
 
6:15 PM
Because Atiyah Singer is like
Linked to supersymmetric quantum mechanics?
Apparently
I forget it's been a while
 
it's linked to pretty much everything
 
Like you can find about the ground states of SSQM theories using Atiyah?
 
you can prove a version of it using a SUSY path integral
dunno about that
 
Yeah I don't remember too well
 
@ACuriousMind you're really vague
 
6:16 PM
Since I never did that PhD I did not look into it a lot more :p
Bit of a sore point
 
you need Atiyah-Singer to calculate partition functions in ST
well Riemann-Roch but that's a derived theorem from Atiyah-Singer
 
IIRC it's like
You have elliptic differential operators?
 
yah
 
And they are linked to the what's its name number of the manifold
Math dude name
Chi thing
 
@Slereah Chern class or Todd class
 
6:19 PM
Related to the cutting up of said manifold
 
the index of the operator is the integral of some combinations of characteristic classes
 
@Slereah Ah, Euler characteristic!
 
that's the one
 
that's not Atiyah-Singer
 
Oh
 
6:19 PM
that can be derived from it
 
apparently it's a big theorem
 
@ACuriousMind I need another hint
 
@0celo7 I'm not sure what hint to give without giving the proof, there are only like two steps in my view :P
 
I don't see how to apply the defintion of limit
how or where
 
@0celo7 $a$ is the limit of $a_n$. $\lvert b - a \rvert > 0$ is a valid choice for an $\epsilon$.
 
6:22 PM
I know that
but what do I do after that
 
what is b
 
you said I can't introduce absolute values
 
@0celo7 Well, don't you see that the $a_k$ for $k > N(\epsilon)$ you get has $a_k > b$?
 
what?
I'm not kidding, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about
 
Let $\epsilon < \lvert a - b \rvert$. Then, $\exists N : \lvert a_k - a \rvert < \epsilon < \lvert a - b \rvert \forall k > N$. Now, I claim that this means $a_k > b \forall k > N$.
 
6:26 PM
but what is b D:
 
@Slereah Any number with $b < a$.
 
aha
 
p. broad
 
you keep acting like this is easy
it's not
6.
 
@0celo7 It is! (But probably only because I've done proofs like this hundreds of times)
 
6:29 PM
"easy" is a relative term
 
@Rigor Well, duh! ;)
 
Yes, master.
:P
 
what on Earth
there has to be a better way of learning this
I can't do it
 
You can do it.
Keep practicing
 
ok we have a bound from above by 5.
@ACuriousMind is that correct?
 
6:36 PM
@0celo7 How do you get a bound from above from 5?
 
hmm, I have to show sup is finite
GDI I have no clue what to do
 
I know Jost used triangle
but this book has not given me triangle yet
 
@0celo7 Again, the contraposition is easier, I think: Show that unbounded sequences don't have a limit
 
"easier"
I thought of that already
 
6:50 PM
@ACuriousMind I can do this with the triangle inequality
you're telling me it is possible to do without?
 
@0celo7 I'm not sure whether the book doesn't want you to use the triangle inequality (after all, it is a basic feature of the absolute value on the real numbers)
 
@ACuriousMind but you said you could prove the contrapositive without using triangle?
 
@0celo7 I didn't say that
 
@ACuriousMind do you know how to prove it without using the triangle inequality?
 
@0celo7 After thinking about it, I think the proof I had in mind doesn't use the triangle inequality, so, yes, I guess.
 

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