You Are Here - 2017-03-08

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12:46 AM

@pnuts Are you okay out there? I'm missing your companionship and our shared pedantry.

2 hours later…

2:54 AM

@GayotFow any idea why Arthur Muir's wife's earnings are relevant? I see news articles reporting that they have lived in Germany and Ireland, implying that they're trying for the Singh route, but that he's being deported because she doesn't earn enough for him to qualify for a spouse visa, which implies their attempt to invoke Singh failed. For example:

theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/07/…

My searches seeking more detail are fruitless.

1 hour later…

4:01 AM

@phoog I have the removal notice for the Jamaicans if that's of any use

it's slated for today at 6:30 AM

50 of them will be involuntarily removed to Kingston.

@phoog next point, the Guardian is not the place to believe anything.

but i can see the problem without too much difficulty

The couple do not qualify for Singh

So they tried the FM route

and please do not use 'deported', it is the wrong word

I know you guys probably saw this on the HNQ list, but this question might be useful. I noticed that Travel had a few hot questions about the first iteration of the travel ban, so I assume you'll get a bunch more about the new one:

35

Q: What are the differences between Trump's old travel ban and the new one?

Trump recently signed a revised executive order to restrict travellers from specified countries for 90 days. What are some of the differences between the 2 executive orders (13769 and 13780)?

united-states immigration

@phoog the removal notice says...

The case details of those Jamaica nationals it is proposed to remove are attached. Each
detainee was served with an assertive letter advising that, as it is intended to remove them
on a charter flight, the Home Office may decide not to defer removal if a threat or
application is made to seek permission for judicial review. I also attach a copy of that
template letter. The Court will see that this also includes reference to the need to serve
any injunction obtained on the Home Office to ensure that it is acted upon.

also.......

It is respectfully requested that Immediates and Duty Judges take the above information
into account when considering any applications made for injunctions to prevent the
removal of those due to be returned on the flight on Wednesday 8 March. It is also
respectfully requested that Immediates and Duty Judges bear in mind the findings of the
High Court in R (on the application of Hamid) v SSHD [2012] EWHC 3070 (Admin) and
R (Madan) v SSHD [2007] 1 WLR 2891.
If Immediates and Duty Judges, or their clerks, require further information or copies of

I wouldn't disclose his exact case details here

but it's a sure bet he doesn't qualify for Singh and/or FM or anything else.

So he is out-of-here in 2 hours 15 minutes

It's tough sh*t for him

@phoog I am a member of the people who believe that abuse is a bad thing. It results in rules that can also hit the good people. And I am a member of the people who think non-abusers should be granted leave.

@phoog I am not in practice any more so I am entitled to have zero sympathy for those who abuse the system. :)

@phoog and finally I am a member of the people who think the Guardian publishes shite when they get the chance :)

4:51 AM

@GayotFow Which aspects of the Guardian's article should I disbelieve? I searched for coverage from other news outlets, but all I found was a couple of bloggers who seemed to be quoting the Guardian piece.

@GayotFow I have no opinion about, nor interest in, whether this guy has been abusing the system. I'm interested in knowing why the UK would deny a Singh claim.

So I thought his case might provide an example of such a denied claim.

5:13 AM

@phoog Are you British?

5:31 AM

user image

@GayotFow No

@All People, get your tweets out there

@phoog ok, no probs, Not everybody takes the Guardian as gospel. I'm in with that segment of the population.

They do OK with sports

And film reviews are basically OK

Your second issue: why he was refused (NOT 'denied') Singh

@GayotFow I don't take any news outlet as gospel. Guardian's push into the US market makes them an interesting source for stories about the US. Some of their stories are just reporting something that was in the NY Times, but sometimes they have things that don't turn up in any of my US news sources.

If I lived in the UK I suppose I'd read more UK news outlets. I used to look at the BBC but find their greater-than-average inability to write proper English too infuriating.

The BBC at one point sponsored and promoted a "Language Watch Council"

Anyway, I think the Guardian's emotive spin on that situation was unprovenanced

Well I don't know anything about this case obviously but some of the EEA FP refusals I've seen play very fast and loose with the right to family life.

"you can enjoy family life in India," for example, which completely misses the point.

5:43 AM

@phoog I can't give the exact reasons for his refusal(s) because it's embargoed and I would catch hell

The idea that internet contact somehow satisfies this is absurd. If the Jamaican guy has no right to be in the UK with his family then it's just insulting to suggest that long-distance communication should be an adequate substitute.

I'm not asking you to do that.

@phoog he did not qualify and he further abused the system thus blowing his chances

@phoog the part about contacting with current technology is totally in line all things considered

And I'm aware that it gets people angry

@phoog I do hope these thoughts do not disrupt a productive relationship

@phoog please use the ping feature because I am watching the 2nd episode of Jeremy Paxman's Rivers in England documentary

it rocks

6:07 AM

@GayotFow Well it's only offensive if it's intended to imply that such communication is an adequate substitute for living together. In this case I don't have adequate context to form an opinion.

@phoog Counterpoint, they were not living together. He moved out.

@phoog they didn't qualify for Singh and they had a chance at the 10 year route, a fairly good chance, but blew it.

@phoog, did you ask yourself how it was that he was in Scotland in the first instance?

@GayotFow Indeed I did not.

@phoog Jamaicans are visa nationals, they require entry clearance. It's in the rules that people must present an entry clearance when asked to do so.

@GayotFow Like I said I was just interested in the reported facts that implied a Singh attempt and the dissonance of that implication with the reported insufficiency of the wife's income for a spouse visa.

@phoog, did you ask yourself about this paragraph in the Guardian article?

The Home Office refuses to confirm the existence of the removal flight, the second to Jamaica since 2014. The Guardian has only been able to piece together details through migrants’ rights activists and relatives of those set to be on board.

6:15 AM

@GayotFow Not especially.

@phoog They didn't know about the removal flight, they are working from 2nd and 3rd hand information.

I knew about it last week!

I posted a redacted extract from it here in chat last Friday or Thursday. It's up there somewhere

@phoog it doesn't mean I'm a great guy; there were lots of people informed. And the Guardian didn't have a clue

More from the article...

However, his new application to remain was rejected because Jackson-Muir, 29, does not earn the £18,600 required to be the sponsor on a spousal visa – a financial hurdle upheld by the supreme court last month.

The application was not rejected

@phoog, you are a trusted user and you are in a position to be aware of how important it is to read the refusal notice with your own eyeballs

please read.......

10

Q: Why do you want to see UK refusal notices?

Can I upload refusal letter on this site? Visit visa refused because employers letter didn't mentioned salary.

theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/27/…

this one tried for an RR under Paragraph 18

In my whole life I have never seen an RR succeed

@phoog hello? are you there?

They also got her on orchestrated public protest, so she' NEVER coming back

6:40 AM

@GayotFow RR?

6:53 AM

@phoog Paragraph 18, returning resident = RR

@phoog Not even worth the time to complete the application

I have been in 5 (FIVE) governments and never seen a successful RR

Actually 6 if you count my early days :)

talk.uk-yankee.com/index.php?topic=50156.msg1033612#msg1033612

7:33 AM

@GayotFow Why even have it then?

7:54 AM

@phoog It's in the act. They can't just ignore it

8:10 AM

@GayotFow Presumably the act lays down conditions under which the RR visa must be granted; can they just ignore those?

8:50 AM

@phoog No, this would be breaking the law. The first principle in the British constitution is the supremacy of Parliament. I don't mean to be pedantic, and sorry if it comes across that way, but the government doesn't make the rules.

I take it you have no interest in Jeremy Paxman's documentary on English rivers?

9:07 AM

@GayotFow I suppose it's interesting, but I have never seen it.

@phoog It's brand new. It started last week and he's just aired episode 2. It's awesome

I doubt it's showing in the US in that case.

@GayotFow Forgot to ping you.

@phoog put it on your list for the next time you're here

@GayotFow I expect it will be available here before I am next there.

@phoog Even better, highly recommended. Paxman is mesmerising.

9:25 AM

@GayotFow I'll definitely look out for it. I'm off for now; see you later.

@phoog all the very best

@GayotFow not just English- episode one had the Tweed... which is Scottish for a good chunk of it

10:26 AM

@RoryAlsop oh my! Are you watching it?

10:45 AM

@GayotFow yep - the kids weren't sure if it would be interesting, but they also like it (probably as they had seen quite a bit of the Tweed near Peebles anyway)

@RoryAlsop Well good on you, you see @phoog.

@RoryAlsop I have been a rabid follow of Paxman since he published "The English" book back heavens only knows when. I also like his Nightwatch where he rips them a new one time after time. His documentaries are mesmerising.

You have Simon Schama, and Janina Ramirez, and Jeremy Paxman. Three people I will watch immediately whatever it is :)

1 hour later…

11:58 AM

@GayotFow man, I hate these 'migrants rights' activists

very rarely do I see them fighting against real abuse of the law

usually they try to protect folks who should've removed from the country ages ago

and I'm an immigrant myself!

4 hours later…

RoflcoptrException

4:22 PM

hey i have some nepali rupie that the banks i asked do not want to exchange. what can I do to get my money?

@phoog You can stream Paxman's Rivers channel4.com/programmes/rivers-with-jeremy-paxman/episode-guide

4:52 PM

@RoflcoptrException can I ask you about the 'voting corrected' message I got?

5:34 PM

@Dorothy Are you watching it?

@JonathanReez which one set you off?

@GayotFow I have on my watch list, and had to search around. Right now, 4 only has the first two episodes, but it will add the others, so I have it bookmarked.

@GayotFow I don't watch TV, I stream everything, and it took a bit for it to show up.

@Dorothy I am something like that too

That's 3 people in here on that series, @Dorothy @RoryAlsop and me. Let's be ready to provide some great answers about the Tweed and Severn

@GayotFow I cut the cord (cable) and do have Acorn TV, along with Prime video, Netflix and Hulu. I like the docs, and the dark and gritty, so lots of Danish series, French, Brit...

@Dorothy dark and gritty = those homicide and serial killer docs?

@GayotFow That would be very cool (from a former US to UK emigre)... and yes, sorry; Swedish such as The Bridge, Killing; Belgian Salamander, French L'engranage, Braquo, Italian Romanzo Criminale... recently, Un Village Francais (with so many seasons it has lasted longer than the war)....

@GayotFow as you've been here for years, and I haven't been pinged back by Roflcoptr... several days ago someone, apparently, started downvoting my old answers, and I got the 'voting corrected' message, giving me back the points. Does this mean that the mod can see who did dinging me and told them to stop behaving badly?

5:46 PM

@Dorothy Erudite selection! I know nothing about those docs!

@Dorothy no, the mods cannot see who d/v'd you

You have to use some software to do that

@Dorothy do you watch any of Nina Ramirez?

@GayotFow lots of docs too; right now watching the restored version of Night Will Fall, the filming in Bergen Belsen done by Brit soldiers. And right, very odd, the system saw what was happening and fixed it. I'm not dueling with anyone, I don't do that as you know.

@Dorothy I haven't down voted in a long time, I try to avoid it

@GayotFow no, haven't seen Ramirez, but watched Helen Caster offerings, very good, and really liked Joanna Lumley's Green Odyssey and Nile. ... And I don't downvote often; when I object to a comment, I flag. For high level content, it's not productive to cross swords. Since your vote of confidence (who knew :-) I have offered more input when a new user answers or comments.

@GayotFow "The Home Office refuses to confirm the existence of the removal flight, the second to Jamaica since 2014. The Guardian has only been able to piece together details through migrants’ rights activists and relatives of those set to be on board."

@Dorothy I used to down vote (in about 2014) in order to mod 5 my rep. And yeah, I liked Joanna Lumley's stuff, I last watched her Siberia doc :)

@JonathanReez I mentioned earlier to @phoog that the Guardian is toilet

@JonathanReez Everybody knew about the removal flight, the Home Office sent everybody a copy of the letter

@JonathanReez @phoog didn't understand how a Singh application could fail

@Dorothy ok, you recommend one to me and I'll recommend one to you, deal?

6:10 PM

@GayotFow have you watched L'engrenage ? Of course, not only is Grégory Fitoussi hot, (for you Audrey Fleurot), you get to ponder the French legal system. Acorn has Helppo elämä, the Finnish series translated to 'East Living.'

@GayotFow I'm a Wasingtonian, btw; do you think we ever crossed paths? What years were you in DC? I lived in Kalorama, Georgetown, Glover Park.

@Dorothy We didn't cross paths, I was on North Carolina Ave SE for a while and then Rosslyn and then Arlington and Fairfax and Annandale and finally Rockville. I was married twice there. Once on Connecticut Ave and once in Silver Spring. I did my MBA there and worked in a bit of this and a bit of that. I had diplomatic credentials from the State Dept so totally had a great time

In terms of what era, I worked on the Trident missiles :)

Folks I need a reality check please.

I just dupehammered this: travel.stackexchange.com/questions/89519/…

I think we have several such 90 days after work permit in Schengen questions.

Did I pick the best one?

Does it make sense to pick one as the canonical and cleanup all others? @JonathanReez I am looking at you. :)

@GayotFow what a hoot; here I was thinking I was old enough to be your mother. Trident, early 70', me at DOT (and a NASA parent), and all the FBI and CIA friends/friendlies. You did the heavy lifting, I did the arts (Nat'l Endowment, Preservation).

@GayotFow but DC could be a VERY small town; you had to be careful what you were doing, who you were seeing, the MI5 father of one's child

@Dorothy Late 70's. I am a Vietnam vet

6:27 PM

@GayotFow and I grew up with about 50 of the people whose names are on the Wall; I'm late 60's.

@Dorothy @GayotFow Are you two done comparing growth rings like trees? :P

@JoErNanO looks fine, but please add it to our canonicals list: meta.travel.stackexchange.com/questions/3757/…

@JoErNanO LMAO... and your dupe looks good to me, particularly since @phoog has a particularly clear answer, and one that applied easily to an Australian as with an American.

@JonathanReez Done. Thanks.

@Dorothy OK thanks. Do remember thought that duplicates are for questions and not for answers per se.

@JoErNanO I hope you're not going to side up with those whaco's

6:36 PM

@GayotFow Which whaco's? There's so many.

@JoErNanO those whaco's who think there are no duplicates

@Dorothy are you recommending L'engrenage?

@JoErNanO Agree, so many questions are essentially the same, but the OP tosses in all sort of bits, thinking that their situation is unique (a special snowflake).

@GayotFow OUI .... L'engrenage !!

@Dorothy this one? Engrenages l'intégrale de la saison 1

@GayotFow oui: do you stream media? If you do, see if it's on Netflix, or the like; it's being called Spiral in English

@Dorothy Don't see it, but the dvd is 54p on Amazon

I'll order it

6:52 PM

@netflix.com/search?q=spiral and what a bargain at 54 p... and Amazon UK amazon.co.uk/Spiral-Episode-1/dp/B00IC6RU1Q/…

I'll get the dvd, is it my turn now?

@GayotFow YES !!!

@Dorothy bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03sg830 all 3 episodes :)

@Tor-EinarJarnbjo I think we have a newbie who's commenting or answering and when one of us points out the flaws, starts dinging us by downvoting our answer, both new and old.

@Tor-EinarJarnbjo didn't you just remark on an answer to this Q?

@Dorothy who?

7:06 PM

@Dorothy I don't think @Tor is in chat. You might have to invite him from the chat user list.

Actually Tor isn't even registered on the chat.

chat.stackexchange.com/users

He isn't in the list.

@Dorothy Who is the user?

@GayotFow gotcha... @JoErNanO I haven't figured it out yet. On Tuesday, someone downvoted four of my old, high value answers. The system restored those votes yesterday, but my answer yesterday was also downvoted by someone, dinging me again. Now Tor got the same, and I thought I saw someone provide a flawed answer that Tor said it was incorrect; that answer is gone and his answer was dinged. I'll see whether I can figure out who it might be.

Tell me the user ID. I can maybe check for serial downvoters.

@Dorothy don't worry about such things, someone is downvoting everyone all the time

@JoErNanO it's this phooquaire travel.stackexchange.com/users/57836/sagar-v

@JonathanReez thanks and @GayotFow BINGO... that's exactly the person who commented with me on Tuesday and put in the flawed answer... and just dinged Tor. Can someone slap his hand?

7:15 PM

@Dorothy we can't slap his hand

@GayotFow can a mod put him in timeout for a month and tell him to stop acting his age?

@JonathanReez you gave him a bounty

@Dorothy One needs proof of serial downvoting before suspending.

@Dorothy absolutely no. He is punishment down voting, but a timeout will not work

People have the right to downvote. This is a democracy after all.

Serial downvoting is when a user receives many downvotes in a row. i.e. when the downvoting user is abusing the voting feature.

7:19 PM

this is punishment down voting

I get that a lot

@JoErNanO true but not when it's has no merit and is meanspirited. Dude went and downvoted four of my answers from last year, and the systems spotted what he did and reversed the points deducted. He must not have like my comment (I think I said, gently, that we don't use comment to chat) and Tor just did the same, said that his answer was incorrent, so he downvotes the correct answer.

@Dorothy use up votes

@JoErNanO that's totally failing to show respect for others here ... and @GayotFow I just did that for Tor, upvoted b/c of the annoying arschloch. I won't downvote any of his but, like a few others, will put him on my ignore list.

@JoErNanO check this out!

travel.stackexchange.com/users/47051/alamar?tab=reputation

and who was the nitwit that gave him a 100 pt bounty???

@JonathanReez I assume your bounty to him was during the Bonanza

@Dorothy Thing is I have no way of knowing who is downvoting whom. And the corollary is that neither do regular users. There is no point in focusing on this perceived negativity IMHO. Let it go and concentrate on being the nice person you are.

7:28 PM

@Dorothy upvote all competing answers :)

@JoErNanO LOL thanks for that, and we'll all ignore him and any of his input. And I realize how ticked him off; his edit into English was almost as abysmal and the OP; I fixed his edit, and he decided to hate me back... and I'll upvote all competing answers TY @GayotFow LMAO

@Dorothy and leave a +1 comment

and then ping me with the link :)

There's no rules about up voting LOL

@Dorothy and report back about Januszczak's stuff

@GayotFow travel.stackexchange.com/questions/89510/… and, laugh, I have Rococo Before Bedtime (Acorn) on my watchlist

Up votes will cure erectile dysfunction!

@Dorothy I have all his stuff on a usb drive

@GayotFow and I also stream on dailymotion.com and just found it, and put it on my watch list.

7:41 PM

@JoErNanO I wrote an app to find out who the phooquaire was on the main site

I need the main site for my day job

The guy is so spooky looking, as close to a perv serial killer as I have ever seen

@GayotFow jambjo joined me in chat and confirms it's the same... Tor commented on his incorrect answer, downvoted it, and they the guy deleted his answer and went on to downvote Tor's answer(s)

@Dorothy where is the room?

@GayotFow join us chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/55025/room-for-jarnbjo-and-dorothy

@JoErNanO will you take up the vocabulary challenge tomorrow?

@Dorothy he is saying the same thing

8:02 PM

@GayotFow correct... same person. same ding; he was low key at first, but has gotten a bit ahead of himself. Best if we all ignore him, his questions, comments and answers.

@GayotFow and, as with Tor, it never occurred to me that it was him, but it was more inappropriate when he went looking for my other answers and did it for several days. I've not done any answers today so we'll see. And tell Joe to stop giving him bounties for his Qs

@Dorothy never vote off the profile page

@GayotFow what do you mean?

going into someone's profile and looking at their answers?

yeah, that's it

Oh, is that what he did to me?

Aha... I get it (and have never done it)

@Dorothy yeah, that's why you got a roll back dummy

8:08 PM

@GayotFow so if he did the same to Tor, he'll see it, and the system can see that it was him

@Dorothy clever girl!

@GayotFow well we're just going to shut him down with our silence

@Dorothy right, and now time to chill for a while :)

@GayotFow later

Tell @MarkMayo about it when he's one

8:10 PM

@GayotFow will do

8:25 PM

@JoErNanO just bought a ticket to Paris. Are you still living there?

2 hours later…

RoflcoptrException

9:57 PM

@Dorothy by skimming over the chat protocol it seems that you already talked with @JonathanReez and @JoErNanO about it? is it still a problem?

@RoflcoptrException we did, and @GayotFow suggested I also talk with MarkMayo... Tor and I have been hit by the same user who, when one of us communicates with him, and he deosn't like it what we have to offer, he goes to our profile and downvotes a bunch of our questions.

RoflcoptrException

yes if I remember correctly mark handle such a case with this or a similar user already before

the thing is, we normally get notified if there are suspicious vote patterns

but not in this case

@RoflcoptrException GayotFow figured out it was this travel.stackexchange.com/users/57836/sagar-v user after he dinged Tor-Einar Jarnbjo... sagar=v had answered, it was totally wrong, Tor said so etc. For me, he did it to me on Tuesday, going to my profile and downvoting a bunch of old answers, after I fixed his 'edit' of a question. He didn't like that I overrode him, so he hit back.

RoflcoptrException

to be honest i don't think so. He has a total of 10 votes in two weeks and i don't see any suspicous pattern in his vote history

10:38 PM

It was a bit odd, he disliked that I didn't approve his 'edit' and didn't like it when Tor told him his answer was incorrect (and it was way off, about Eurail passes). We'll just steer clear of him. The system restored my points because he had go to my profile to see what I had answered and was downvoting me from there.

11:00 PM

@RoflcoptrException he doesn't have a suspicious pattern because the roll back rolled them back, DUH

@RoflcoptrException @GayotFow and he's been suspended on stackoverflow.com/users/2427065/sagar-v for voting irregularities, go figure !!

tanking his rep down to 1 ...

11:17 PM

@Dorothy Well that nails it down. Take this up with @MarkMayo that he is not enjoying the site in the way that maximises his participation

and that he appears to be voting off the profile page

@GayotFow I'll do that, copying you..

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