Japanese Language - 2014-09-02 (page 1 of 2)

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12:08 AM

@sawa プロフ拝見しました。

残念です

3

12:31 AM

@AndrewGrimm You are 6th most downvoted over all (57 downvotes). I'm place 8 (at 45) and language hacker has received a total of 120 downvotes. I think we can safely assume that the downvotes come from many different users (probably including me in various cases).

2 hours later…

2:25 AM

I am wondering where did mr. Ishihara get the idea of chocolate sushi from at all. Perhaps from TV where bangumis broadcasting "weird japanese food abroad" are common.

2 hours later…

4:48 AM

@Earthliŋ へえ、languagehackerさんが一位！？

I don't get really upset by anonymous downvotes, but it does make me paranoid trying to figure out if something is wrong with my answer that I'm not aware of!

I wonder if there would be any utility in including reasons for voting similar to close votes

@ssb When I got a downvote here japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/16130/…

I thought

"Someone hates me!"

some truly are mysterious..

and I don't think the other answer is 3 times better

@ssb ｗｗｗｗ

三倍！

the upvote fairy might leave something under your pillow tonight

4:54 AM

あ、

今ssbさんが

ありがとう～

三倍から、二倍に近づいたｗｗ

Darius Jahandarie

I'm more upset when my answer goes in the negatives as opposed to when it gets downvoted.

Heh, I actually disagree with what I wrote in my lowest-rated answer.

And I only wrote it 8 months ago!

Dariusさんの回答が、ゼロより下になったことなんかあったっけ

Darius Jahandarie

今はないけど、一時的にあったような気がする

I've only given out 7 downvotes since I've been here

maybe I should be a little more critical..

「大学で勉強したいです」？

Darius Jahandarie

4:59 AM

うんそれ

@ssb 優秀や～ん

3 to 5 business days

I don't vote much nowadays

Darius Jahandarie

「勉強をする vs 勉強する」なら、回答の内容は正解と思うんだけど、〜したいの場合は違うと今思う

3 to 5 business days

I feel like I don't know enough to vote

By the way, is 改善 that profound?

I thought it's just "improvement"

I didn't think it was

but it does seem like it might be some kind of buzzword that's a little bigger than I thought

5:01 AM

（このチャットルームで、なんでssbさんの名前だけ斜字体なんだろう）

oh hey!

Darius Jahandarie

ｗｗｗ本当だ

I didn't even notice that

Darius Jahandarie

僕もｗ

3 to 5 business days

!!!

5:04 AM

I'm looking on meta, but..

I guess I'll ask

Darius Jahandarie

I figured out why.

3 to 5 business days

so... as a chatroom owner

Darius Jahandarie

If you look in the DOM, your username has the "owner" class on it, while no one else's does.

3 to 5 business days

do you, ssb, have super powers like deleting other people's messages?

Darius Jahandarie

So presumably you created the chat room?

3 to 5 business days

5:05 AM

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/511/japanese-language

I have no special powers that I can see

hmm

I do have a little "room" link and if I click it I do get a "room owner" menu

It's under the tags for the chat/above the user list

Darius Jahandarie

What have we done!

There are 5 owners apparently

gibbonさんもですけど、

斜字体じゃないですねえ

This is too much pressure.. I never asked for this kind of responsibility..

Darius Jahandarie

5:09 AM

ｗｗなわけないだろう

jkerian isn't italicized either

or snailboat

3 to 5 business days

i swear to god, these FAQs are not that intuitive to navigate, but...

chat.stackexchange.com/faq#room-users

Darius Jahandarie

「六時に　会社**を**　出で、うちへ　帰ります。」、「出で」がおかしいよね…「出て」かな？

そうですね

3 to 5 business days

> Each room has owners, who can change various room settings and transfer ownership to other users.

> Wondering who is who? Moderators are displayed in color, room owners in italics.

5:13 AM

I've accepted my fate as a room owner, but why aren't the others shown with formatting?

ah ok

snailboat and jkerian and earthling get color because they are mods

which apparently means not italics

3 to 5 business days

yeah

looking for user @gibbon's last post

hm?

3 to 5 business days

hehe

it's a trap!

played right into my hand..

We just noticed the formatting on room owners

5:16 AM

あ、gibbonさんもだ

how long has it been this way? I feel crazy for not noticing

今までぜんぜん気づかなかったねえ

So what is it? Am I an 'owner'?

Yeah!

neat-o

3 to 5 business days

5:19 AM

hah. none of the non-mod owners know that they are owners

あはは

Darius Jahandarie

Maybe that's why they started italicizing the names.

I don't even know when it happened

Darius Jahandarie

Alright, time to stop making bad electronica and go do some reading.

ssb has added Choko to the list of this room's owners.

5:21 AM

boom

うわ

何をいたすｗｗｗ

turns out owners can't do much anyway

3 to 5 business days

schedule events?

I want to try and add an event but I don't want people to get mad at me

イベント･･･？どんなのだろう

5:32 AM

@DariusJahandarie I feel like that JLPT question should still be split up even with the different title.. ultimately it's a で vs. に question and a から出る vs. を出る question

Darius Jahandarie

Yeah, I agree. I didn't mean to validate its status as a single question by editing it. I mainly just wanted to fix the typo and changed other stuff while I was in there.

Anonymous

@ssb I added a bunch of people as owners one day

Anonymous

Owners can allow users with less than 20 reputation to talk in the room.

Anonymous

So I thought, "If I add a bunch of people as owners, then anyone who sees a user with less than 20 reputation join can add them"

I figured that was the case!

Anonymous

5:37 AM

Owners do have a couple other privileges so we shouldn't add just anyone.

Anonymous

But I trust just about everyone here :-)

there goes my plan to sell ownership positions for bitcoins..

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ How did you figure this out?

Darius Jahandarie

Hah, I didn't know moderators.stackexchange.com was a site.

Anonymous

It's new.

Darius Jahandarie

5:49 AM

I'm quite interested in that sort of stuff, but I'm not sure how well it is going to work as a SE site. Most of the interesting questions are quite opinion-based.

Anonymous

Ironically, I don't think I'd ever use it for actual moderation issues because it would require discussing them publicly :-)

Darius Jahandarie

And if you want to do something less opinion-based, it needs to go really deep if you can't assume a similar philosophy from the readers.

Anonymous

I'm not sure how effective anonymizing it would be

Darius Jahandarie

Yes, there is that pragmatic issue too. Using an alternate account might be the way to go there.

The site stats seem to agree..

Anonymous

5:51 AM

@ssb Well, it's very new still

only 34 days, though

Anonymous

If you look at the stats for any beta, you'll see that there's a big spike early on (in private beta and perhaps afterwards briefly), but overall it plummets and then later slowly rises

Anonymous

You might have noticed that Japanese.SE, though still not especially active, has been on average more active than it was a year ago

Anonymous

We've got a fairly steady but very slow growth curve

Anonymous

ううむ・・・参考までに・・・　youtube.com/watch?v=O9Usdr0TqV8　またはこれとか・・・　youtube.com/watch?v=BvdAE38WfuA　上級者には・・・youtube.com/watch?v=rvUoakQf3I8 — Choko 6 hours ago

Anonymous

5:54 AM

I love watching people who are really good at writing :-)

Darius Jahandarie

I really wish there was a nice way to triage, organize, improve, etc. old answers without doing edits and bumping stuff to the front page.

Anonymous

Yeah, that's what a lot of people would like

Anonymous

But it's status-declined in perpetuity

I still think a "minor edit" checkbox would be great

Anonymous

If you go search meta.stackexchange.com, you can find the appropriate feature requests to upvote

Darius Jahandarie

5:55 AM

I wonder who the audience of that first writing video is lol

Anonymous

I linked to that third video in here a little while back

Anonymous

I write a few kana with the wrong stroke order

I remember you linked that one

Those pens are so cool

Anonymous

I didn't really make an effort to always learn the right stroke order until I started learning kanji

Anonymous

Eventually I went back and re-learned some of the kana I learned wrong and my handwriting improved a little

Anonymous

5:57 AM

I write Latin letters upside down

Anonymous

When I was in grade school I got in trouble for writing them all my own way, because I'd taught myself some years before entering school

Anonymous

I always write them from the bottom up, from the center spiraling out, and often from the right...

Anonymous

And I never learned to write cursive

The only time I've ever seen anyone care about that was in the 2nd grade when we had to use those stupid D'Nealian handwriting books

Anonymous

It was pretty difficult for me to try to re-train myself to write from the top down, not unlike learning to write with my non-dominant hand

Anonymous

5:59 AM

@ssb Yeah, I don't need cursive, so it's not a big deal . . . :-)

Anonymous

People our age or younger probably almost never use cursive, I bet.

Anonymous

Well, you're younger than me.

Anonymous

When I was in high school and I took the ACT, there was a section that we were actually supposed to write in cursive, in our own handwriting to acknowledge that we weren't cheating and weren't copying off of others' test booklets

Anonymous

I couldn't do it, so I had to look at my neighbors' test booklet and see how they wrote the cursive letters

Anonymous

I wonder if they've gotten rid of that :-)

Darius Jahandarie

6:00 AM

I can half-write cursive. I think I remember all the lower-case letters, but I'm certain I don't remember most of the upper-case letters.

Though I can usually just make up something for a character I don't remember, haha.

Anonymous

I got a Palm Pilot in the late 90s, and it had its own handwriting input system, but I couldn't learn that either...

I learned cursive but never had to use it

Anonymous

It's funny, but somehow I can write Japanese with the right stroke order

Darius Jahandarie

I think cursive does make reasonable sense to learn if one plans on writing a lot, though.

Anonymous

Not that D'Nealian script.

Anonymous

6:01 AM

It's awful!

Anonymous

Anyway, I do write by hand a lot.

my cursive is basically "this is what happens when I write quickly" and not following what I learned in school

Anonymous

You develop your own sort of "cursive" just by writing faster and not lifting your pen

Anonymous

Yeah.

Anonymous

The same thing happens with Japanese, actually... :-)

6:02 AM

I'm always surprised by how good handwriting tends to be on average

in Japan

Anonymous

I really like writing Japanese! :-)

Anonymous

I would never call my own handwriting good though :-(

Anonymous

But it's fun to practice.

Anonymous

Do you have a brush pen, ssb?

I do not

I never really do any sort of writing by hand

Anonymous

6:03 AM

I have brushes

Anonymous

Ohh

however occasionally I get to do calligraphy in classes with kids!

Anonymous

Did you when you were doing Heisig?

Anonymous

@ssb Do you do it with one of the big brushes on a big sheet?

when doing heisig I'd write it out with my finger

just on my desk or whatever

Anonymous

6:04 AM

Ohh, I have notebooks full of kanji :-)

When doing calligraphy here yeah, it's with the brushes on the ~A4 sized paper

Anonymous

I think about fourteen notebooks' worth

there was a time when I thought I would try to do that, but it always felt too cumbersome

Anonymous

I have a big brush and a little brush.

Anonymous

@ssb Well, I've always enjoyed writing.

Anonymous

6:05 AM

I like to be able to take neat, color-coded notes with a set of colored gel pens.

I did use skritter for a little while for kanji practice and stroke order in general, but it's not worth the money

and it doesn't help handwriting

@snailboat my learning style has always been really disorganized and untidy

Anonymous

A lot of my notes are a little to hasty to be called "neat", though :-)

Anonymous

I'm only neat some of the time.

Anonymous

6

A: Is my Hiragana writing understandable?

I think the only character one would stumble over is い, because it looks close like a し with either a bit of dirt, or like an incomplete じ. The rest of characters are definitely legible. Two comments: き and さ are written with a gap in the curve (in handwriting). The next character I would poin...

Anonymous

I had the same impression as Earthling, that they were all pretty easy to read (but not necessarily what you'd call good handwriting) except for い

Anonymous

6:08 AM

い looks like し

Anonymous

Sort of

Anonymous

I don't think it's Primarily Opinion Based

Yeah, I originally voted to close but retracted it after some reflection

Anonymous

Opinion factors into it for sure.

Anonymous

But I think POB is like "What's your favorite color" or "What book should I buy"

6:09 AM

This just has to do with where you draw the line of legibility

Anonymous

I think that an educated opinion can fairly well reflect what most literate speakers would think

Anonymous

Which is sort of objective-by-proxy

Anonymous

I think they should try writing in boxes

absolutely

Like, these are freely available all over the internet

user image

Anonymous

Ah! It's so tiny...

Anonymous

6:11 AM

Where is the full version?

happylilac.net/hiragana-50.html

PDF versions abound!

Anonymous

Oh, that's great!

Anonymous

I've noticed a lot of learners tend to write さ and き connected at the bottom

Darius Jahandarie

Probably due to computer fonts.

The very first time I wrote 人 in a class before we learned kanji I wrote the type version!

and was politely corrected

Darius Jahandarie

6:14 AM

Yeah, I made all of these mistakes.

I also was once confused by a hand-written こ where the two lines were almost entirely connected in the middle

Well, it was on a sign, so not hand-written really, but in that sort of style.

you mean like a "z" shape, right?

Darius Jahandarie

Yeah.

I honestly don't even think I can write all the hiragana from memory anymore.

I haven't written anything for almost 2 years.

And I was only writing anything at all for a few months.

I do sometimes blank on some of the less used katakana

Anonymous

I've never forgotten the hiragana or katakana I practiced, not even ヲ

Anonymous

Even though I barely ever write that one

Darius Jahandarie

6:19 AM

giggle

Anonymous

Tae Kim says to ignore ヲ but I see it fairly often (just much less often than most of the other katakana)

Darius Jahandarie

I was just amused that you wrote 'hiragana' there.

Anonymous

Oops

Darius Jahandarie

But yeah, I always forget how to write the katakana. It's incredibly annoying when you know you could recognize the character if it were written, but can't write it. Of course this goes for kanji as well, but that feels less annoying to me.

Anonymous

My mind made a leap that my words did not :-)

Anonymous

6:20 AM

I edited what I wrote to say "or katakana"

Anonymous

I definitely recognize kanji that I fail to write

I always remember ヲ just because of how easy it is to notice when you actually do see it used

so it's always especially reinforcing!

ロボットハ「ヲ」ヲツカウ

Anonymous

Hehe, yeah!

Anonymous

I guess if you play video games on a regular basis you'll see ヲ, or read some manga where robots or foreigners talk in katakana

Anonymous

Or...

Anonymous

6:23 AM

If you read linguistics papers that use katakana for the use-mention distinction

evangelion is written as エバンゲリヲン

Darius Jahandarie

I didn't know they did that.

Anonymous

@ssb Yeah, and it's trendy in stuff like that

Darius Jahandarie

I don't read many linguistics papers in Japanese though.

Anonymous

アリガトヲ

Darius Jahandarie

6:24 AM

ヲタ芸

my mind wants to parse that as アリガトラ

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie ir.library.osaka-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/11094/4156/1/…

蟻が虎

🐜が🐯

Darius Jahandarie

Oh, yes, indeed. I have seen that.

I guess it seemed so obvious why it was written in katakana at the time I didn't make a mental note of it.

Anonymous

There are various reasons people write stuff in all katakana

Anonymous

6:26 AM

The reason Tae Kim gave ("old telegrams") I've never seen though

Anonymous

I've never seen a telegram before

I've never bothered with Tae Kim's guide. Is it as bad as I hear it is?

Anonymous

I don't know

Anonymous

I only read a couple bits

Anonymous

It didn't exist when I started learning

Darius Jahandarie

6:27 AM

I don't really have anything better to recommend to people, so I guess it isn't that bad.

Anonymous

People these days seem to recommend Genki

Darius Jahandarie

There are certainly other things I recommend in addition to it.

I didn't like Genki.

I've heard a lot of negative stuff about it but never anything of substance

only "don't read tae kim's guide it sucks"

Darius Jahandarie

lol

Anonymous

@ssb I can think of a few things that are confusing off the top of my head

Anonymous

6:28 AM

He refers to sentence-final particles as "gobi"

oh, that's no good

Darius Jahandarie

Oh, that's where that misconception stems from?

Anonymous

In traditional Japanese grammar, 活用語 are divided into 語幹 (the unchanging part) and 語尾 (the changing part)

Anonymous

I've seen native speakers use 語尾 informally for 役割語 sentence enders

Anonymous

So I don't think it's something Tae Kim made up

Anonymous

6:29 AM

But I think that formally speaking 終助詞 is better

Anonymous

At a minimum people need to learn terms like 終助詞 so they can use 国語辞典

Darius Jahandarie

homepage3.nifty.com/jgrammar is the closest thing to what my ideal guide would be like.

But it's woefully incomplete and I don't agree with how it lays stuff out really

But at least it lays stuff out at all

I still plan on writing something some day. But I've stopped collecting papers for it these last few months, so who knows if/when that'll happen. :)

Anonymous

I have about 300 papers saved and indexed

Anonymous

One time I spent an entire day sorting through them :-)

I've been reduced to learning new things as I come across them..

I should start studying for 漢字検定

6:40 AM

ぐっどらっく

二級くらいですか

I'm pretty sure snail chan knows more kanji than I do

I'm terrible at writing

by hand

so I'd start at like 5 or 6 probably

漢字検定って、マークシートじゃないんだ・・・

って当たり前かｗｗ

mark sheet..?! is that the right term for multiple choice?

うん。

Anonymous

Oh, I just enjoy studying kanji! But I need to spend more time on the language itself :-) I've been trying to work on vocabulary

Darius Jahandarie

6:43 AM

多肢選択より一般的？

the only word i'd ever learned was 多数選択肢法 or whatever

たしせんたく・・・

たすうせんたくしほう？

むずっ

I could be misremembering that

Darius Jahandarie

多肢選択試験 is what I've heard, IIRC.

へ～～～

6:44 AM

多肢選択 might be what I'm thinking of

選択式、とかさ

Anonymous

"多数選択肢法" has 0 google results and "多数選択法" has 5

yeah it's likely I made that up

looking in my anki deck to see what it actually was

Anonymous

Lately what I do is read or listen to things, and I look things up on my 電子辞書

Darius Jahandarie

Yeah I've seen/heard 多肢選択式 too... in fact maybe that is what I was think of. I don't think I've heard this more than a few times.

Anonymous

6:46 AM

And it has a history feature so I can look through the last 1000 things I looked up

Anonymous

So I've been using that to review :-)

OK, it was 多肢選択法 that I learned

Anonymous

Yay

My mind must have coupled "multiple" 多数 and "choice" 選択肢

Anonymous

Although that doesn't seem like a common compound

Darius Jahandarie

6:47 AM

Hah, according to 英辞郎「○×式テスト」is also used

おお！wikiに

多肢選択法

多肢選択法とは、いくつかの選択肢を与えて、その中から適当なものを選択させる方法のこと。試験問題などの出題方式のひとつ。マークシート方式の試験などはすべてこの方法で行われている。...

Anonymous

Ah, 多肢！

Anonymous

When ssb said 多肢 I didn't notice the difference between 多肢 and 多数 :-)

Anonymous

Now I see!

so would the "opposite" of it be 筆記法？

6:52 AM

日常会話では「筆記」とか『筆記問題』とかいいますね

ここにあるかな

試験（しけん）とは、被験者または試料の能力や性質を測定するために行う行為のこと。検査（けんさ）、テストとも呼ばれる。試験の成績は、普通、採点をして得た得点で表される。合格 / 不合格の判定も、いったん得点を出して、それにより判定することが多い。学校でいわれる試験については、幼児、児童、生徒、学生などの学習活動、学業の成果を検査するための手段を指すことが多い。工学分野における試験についても詳述する。 == 分類 == === 目的による分類 === 試験を目的によって分類すると、一般には、教育機関で人を対象に行われる学力試験、入学試験、単位認定試験、卒業試験などがある。また、入社（就職）する際に入社試験を課す一般企業がある。工学分野では、製品や材料の品質、信頼性などを評価するための試験が行われる。 ==== 人を対象とする試験 ==== 入学試験幼稚園受験 - 小学校受験 - 中学受験 - 高校受験 - 大学受験 - 大学院受験大学入試センター試験 - AO入試入学資格試験中学校卒業程度認定試験 - 高等学校卒業程度認定試験 - 国際バカロレア資格 - バカロレア資格資格試験（免許証、登録証発行）運転免許試験（卒業検定 - 修了検定） - 自動車整備士国家試験海技従事者試験航空従事者試験動力車操縦者試験クレーン・デリック運転士免許試験 -...

そうそう、筆記試験、とか

I know the term 筆記試験, but does it have its own designated 式？

記述式、とか、記述、とか、記述問題とか・・・

strange! Though uncommon 多肢選択法/式 does exist

But with no written counterpart?

However wouldn't all that be included in the 筆記試験 umbrella?

Anonymous

"Welcome to the 漢検! Please write all your answers on this 傘."

like I had to take my 筆記試験 before I got my driver's license here, and that was before the.. 実技試験？

Darius Jahandarie

6:55 AM

Oh, I remember a question I had!

傘？

Darius Jahandarie

At around 9:50 in this video, the subtitles say 今日はどういった作業を.

I can venture a guess as to what it means, but none of my guesses line up with the response.

@ssb たしかに・・

Anonymous

It's a "筆記試験 umbrella"!

trick question! you actually wrote it on the 日傘

Anonymous

6:57 AM

Sometimes I am silly. Maybe.

マークシートは筆記試験に含まれそうな気も・・・

「記述式」といえば、鉛筆で字を書く気が・・・

Anonymous

What do you call a non-multiple choice test in English?

Anonymous

Fill-in-the-blank test, or an essay test, or...

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