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Krazer
Krazer
12:18 AM
Well folks, I'm please to inform you that Japanese Culture is now in the Commit Phase!
If you have a vote on a question that has more than 10 upvotes, I recommend moving it to make a difference :D
 
Austin French
Austin French
12:52 AM
Done, now only 2 left :D
 
Krazer
Krazer
yay~ WE did it we're in commit phase now!
 
Austin French
Austin French
1:53 AM
I have followed it, or submitted something.
 
Andrew Grimm
Andrew Grimm
2:28 AM
I recently tweeted "Japanese Culture has been proposed as a Q&A site on Stack Exchange. Please commit if you want to participate!"
Should I tweet about it in Japanese as well? If so, can someone translate my tweet into Japanese please?
 
Austin French
Austin French
twitter, I want to sign up just to tweet Japanese and read it in bursts....
 
Austin French
Austin French
3:18 AM
Anyone know the phrase　げんきご　「元気語　」　Perhaps?
 
 
2 hours later…
Anonymous
5:42 AM
@AustinFrench 元気 is extremely common, but I'm not familiar with 元気語
 
Anonymous
Is it possible you misheard?
 
Anonymous
@AndrewGrimm It might make sense to say something a little bit different in Japanese, like focus on the site being for English speakers
 
Anonymous
Since a Q&A site in English to discuss Japanese culture is probably novel
 
jkerian
jkerian
8:22 AM
hmm... did SE just go poof, or did my connection go wonky
 
jkerian
jkerian
8:52 AM
hmm... and back
 
Anonymous
9:28 AM
@jkerian Welcome back! :-)
 
rintaun
rintaun
9:52 AM
@snailboat "This change is easy to understand, for the final e of kare influences the preceding vowel a, by a tendency which is common in Japanese." ... I may be the only one, but I find this explanation by Sansom super gross =/
 
Anonymous
@rintaun I like Frellesvig's explanation better
 
rintaun
rintaun
@snailboat I agree wholeheartedly.
though I still kinda feel like it's not really a complete explanation
 
Anonymous
I'm not sure if there's enough evidence to decisively point one way or the other
 
rintaun
rintaun
yeah probably not, and that's unfortunate and frustrating
 
Anonymous
Anticipatory assimilation is a real thing, though
 
Anonymous
9:59 AM
I'm struggling to recall a similar example
 
rintaun
rintaun
that's true, I suppose
is there a reason why it can't be the 已然形 of 助動詞ケリ? all of the other instances of く＋ある end up as ～か～, so I guess I don't get why just the 已然形 becomes けれ
 
Anonymous
@rintaun Doesn't 助動詞ケリ have associated semantics that are absent?
 
rintaun
rintaun
no idea! I admit that I know very little about 助動詞ケリ lol
it doesn't seem terribly different to me? but I don't know
 
Anonymous
@rintaun Well, it's the "recollective past" (and later just "past"), right?
 
Anonymous
 
rintaun
rintaun
10:17 AM
@snailboat yeah, I read that. I also found japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/15013/archaic-keri-origins which explains that keri also originated from ku+ari, so regardless of if they're the same or not, my complaint is moot lol
 
Anonymous
@rintaun That theory has the same problem… :-)
 
rintaun
rintaun
right, that's what I'm saying
 
Anonymous
Let me grab Frellesvig 2010
 
Anonymous
Sadly, I don't have its contents permanently lodged in my brain yet :-)
 
Austin French
Austin French
@Snailboat where is it you usually host your audio clips?
 
Anonymous
10:23 AM
I have a server
 
Austin French
Austin French
Ah, k. Let me decide how I want to throw something up for you then.
 
rintaun
rintaun
@snailboat essentially, the question I was asking is this: is 高ければ actually formed from 形容詞連用形「高ク」＋動詞已然形「アレ」＋接尾辞「バ」? It seems odd that this ク＋ア＝ケ change is occurring. Isn't it more reasonable to believe it to be formed from something like 形容詞語幹「高」＋助動詞ケリ已然形「ケレ」+接尾辞「バ」?
The problem with the question is that ケリ has the same theoretical ク＋ア＝ケ change in it, so it's not really a better hypothesis, especially given all the other forms of adjectives which are formed from ク＋(various forms of)アル
 
Austin French
Austin French
That is the audio where I think she says genkigo
 
rintaun
rintaun
it would certainly be interesting to know why that sound change doesn't occur in any of the other adjective conjugations though
 
Anonymous
> We will here briefly discuss the function(s) of the two auxiliaries -(i)ki and -(i)kyer- and the differences between them. Sometimes the term 'retrospective' is preferred instead of 'past', but an important function of both -(i)ki and -(i)kyer- is to refer to deictic past time.
 
Anonymous
10:28 AM
> The modal past is more complex in usage than the simple past. It is widely acknowledged to involve some modal element, hence the name given it here, but this has proved difficult to pinpoint. Often a general difference is said to be one of directly experienced (-(i)ki) versus indirectly experienced, or evidential, past -(i)kyer-).
 
Anonymous
> More specifically, … [t]he simple past is usually said to refer to something the speaker has experienced himself, but on the other hand it can also be used in historical accounts. The modal past has a variety of uses: it i saaid to be used about hearsay, or about sudden realizataion, and also with some more general emphatic or exclamatory force, in which case it frequently has no past reference.
 
Anonymous
> Another set of uses, however, is said to have no modal meaning, but rather to resemble a perfect 'has/had been…'.
 
Anonymous
> Simple past: -(i)ki　direct experience, historical accounts
 
Anonymous
> Modal past: -(i)kyer-　hearsay, sudden realization, emphatic or exclamatory force, perfect
 
rintaun
rintaun
@snailboat don't you think that fits with ～ば?
 
Anonymous
10:31 AM
Hold on, I need to type up some more stuff :-)
 
rintaun
rintaun
lol ok. I'm going to run to the library really quick (10 minutes-ish) to get a couple books before it closes.
 
Austin French
Austin French
Are you able to listen to that clip I made for you @snailboat ?
 
Anonymous
> Examples where -(i)kyer- is said to function as a perfect on closer inspection turn out to an involve an entirely different formation, namely on the combination of the auxiliary verb -ko- 'come to', cf. (4) with the stative auxiliary -yer- giving the form -(i)kyer- 'has come to', which is homophonous with the modal past. …
 
Anonymous
> It turns out, then, that what have until now been understood as different uses or functions of one grammatical morpheme, -(i)kyer-, in fact are two entirely different formations which are homophonous. One is the auxiliary verb -ko- combined with the stative auxiliary -yer-; the other is the modal past auxiliary, …
 
Anonymous
> The main environment where a distinction between the two can be formally made is in combination with a perspective auxiliary: (-ko- + -yer-) ⇒ -kyer- does not further combine with a perspective auxiliary (as stative and perfective are paradigmatically opposed and do not combine), whereas the modal past does combine with both of the perfective variants: -(i)te-kyer- and -(i)ni-kyer- unambiguously involve the modal past.
 
helix
helix
1:38 PM
>>Where do I go if I want to know how a native speaker would pitch a certain sentence?
 
Anonymous
Umm… ask a native speaker? :-)
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
to Japan?
 
Anonymous
Or a learner with a very good accent (rare?)
 
Anonymous
You can look up pitch accent on individual words in dictionaries
 
Anonymous
But that's not quite the same thing
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
1:44 PM
Also, pitch accent is usually complemented with intonation, at which point it gets really difficult to transcribe
 
Anonymous
Yeah, pitch accent is only part of the story
 
Anonymous
Otherwise everyone would sing their Japanese in two notes back and forth… :-)
 
rintaun
rintaun
1:57 PM
@snailboat that would be awesome. I want to live in that Japan
I actually for the first time today, had someone not understand wtf I was saying due to poor pitch accent. the word was 歯医者, which I apparently pronounced so incorrectly that it was entirely unrecognizable
even in context
unrelatedly, is there a difference between ～あろうが and ～あろうと?
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
@rintaun I like it when someone tries to ask about a word in Japanese and the rising intonation for the question changes the pitch accent, making it even more unlikely for the Japanese person to understand what s/he means =)
 
Anonymous
@rintaun Oh, interesting! Well, I guess there are words that are はいしゃ(LHH)
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
How did you pronounce 歯医者?
 
Anonymous
@rintaun Isn't that one of those things we put on our Q&A site? :-)
 
helix
helix
The next time I meet a native speaker would be on Friday. On an oral exam. And that person is my teacher. :((
 
Anonymous
2:10 PM
What sort of sentence were you going to ask about?
 
helix
helix
I was confused how "音楽を聞けば...？" would be said as a fragment instead of a complete sentence.
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
音楽を聴いたら? 音楽を聴くと?
 
helix
helix
@Earthliŋ Are those more natural? Because the template said to use the conditional ば... The roleplay is my friend has insomnia, and I'm trying to give advice.
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
@helix Well, if you just want a sentence fragment, then everything is equally natural
 
Anonymous
I thought helix was asking about pronunciation rather than phrasing
 
helix
helix
2:17 PM
Yes, the script was already corrected by e-mail.
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
I see
 
helix
helix
B：(3) じゃあ、音楽を聞けば？
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
OK, that makes sense
hold on
 
Anonymous
Oh, it's HLL for 聞けば? I thought it would be LHL with the first vowel devoiced
 
Anonymous
I should grab my book :-)
 
helix
helix
2:22 PM
goo.gl/mU7VlN <--- Like Google translate's? I imagined ば would be H since it's a question...
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
sorry, hold on
 
Anonymous
@helix Question intonation isn't part of the LH pitch accent system
 
Anonymous
If it rises back up at the end it's still L
 
helix
helix
I did not know that.
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
right, it should be rising at the end, but there's a drop before
 
Anonymous
2:23 PM
The location of pitch accent tells you two things
 
Anonymous
1. Where there's a drop between two morae
 
Anonymous
2. If there's a drop somewhere other than the first mora, then there's a rise at the beginning
 
Anonymous
It doesn't describe anything else like question intonation
 
Anonymous
I drew a picture but it's probably wrong :-)
 
Anonymous
 
helix
helix
2:25 PM
^that's exactly how I imagined it.
Is there a name for that notation? :)
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
Yes
SIN
(snailboat's intonation notation)
 
Anonymous
Hee
 
helix
helix
And so it shall be.
 
Anonymous
I'm not a reliable source of information about intonation, so I still suggest asking a native speaker or other reliable speaker :-)
 
helix
helix
Still, this is very helpful. Thank you.
BTW, what is that font....
 
Anonymous
2:30 PM
Oh, that's うずらフォント
 
Anonymous
It's a cute handwriting font
 
Anonymous
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
I confirmed with a native speaker and the above example in SIN seems to be correct
 
Anonymous
I have Stack Exchange set to use it :-)
 
helix
helix
Very similar to what I use. KFひまじ
 
Anonymous
2:31 PM
Yippee!
 
Anonymous
Ooh
 
Anonymous
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
I can't seem to tell when I devoice a vowel
 
Anonymous
I've been trying to pay closer attention to vowel devoicing
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
I wasn't aware that devoicing would mean low pitch
 
rintaun
rintaun
2:35 PM
@snailboat わかりました＝＿＝ちゃんとした質問で出します
 
Anonymous
I think technically when you devoice a vowel it's pitchless phonetically, but it's still generally considered psychologically low pitch
 
rintaun
rintaun
@Earthliŋ probably LHH? I honestly don't know. I seem to recall saying it uncertainly, after hesitating for a moment because the word just would not come to mind
 
helix
helix
Woah, there are rules for devoicing? I've been doing that only by what I hear...
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
@rintaun I see... Well, I guess now you know it's HLL =)
 
rintaun
rintaun
@Earthliŋ I do indeed =)
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
2:38 PM
In components 音楽 appears to be LHHH, standing alone HLLL. I wonder if there's any systematic way of understanding why...
 
helix
helix
@Earthliŋ Thanks for confirming for me. I wish it's said how I imagine it to sound like.
Welp, I'll know on Friday.
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
Seems to be a tough exam, if they mark you down for errors in pitch or intonation =)
 
Anonymous
@helix Well, you'll notice some tendencies right away
 
Anonymous
It's the high vowels /u/ and /i/ that tend to get devoiced
 
Anonymous
And it most often happens in an unaccented mora between two voiceless consonants, or between a voiceless consonant and a pause
 
helix
helix
2:41 PM
No, I just like to get it right. I'm sure the teacher would notice any unnatural intonation.
 
Anonymous
See The Phonology of Japanese (Labrune 2012) for more detailed discussion
 
Anonymous
(Along with more discussion of how pitch accent interacts with devoicing)
 
Anonymous
Like I said, I'm still just learning about proper pronunciation myself… :-)
 
Anonymous
I've been doing a lot of listening practice for the last year
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
By all the evidence we have, you are "a learner with a very good accent (rare[...])" =)
 
Anonymous
2:43 PM
@rintaun Hehe!
 
helix
helix
I call "listening practice" watching anime.
 
rintaun
rintaun
@helix I call watching anime "research" :D
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
Sometimes I wish I were a language major
It seems to be a lot of fun (probably until you have to write reports etc.)
 
rintaun
rintaun
yeah... =/ especially once you hit grad school
0
Q: What is the difference between ～あろうが and ～あろうと?

rintaunI'm writing a report for a class, and at first I wrote: 　［…］どのような批判があろうが［…］ But then I sat back and thought, maybe it should actually be: 　［…］どのような批判があろうと［…］ But now I'm not sure if there's actually a difference, or if there is, how it actually affects the meaning in this case. So... ...

grammar word-choice meaning
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
A fellow student was told to read 黄表紙. That looks reasonably fun =)
I guess the job market for people able to read 黄表紙 is reasonably small, though.
 
helix
helix
2:53 PM
I hardly even recognize the characters.
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
Kibyōshi
Kibyōshi (黄表紙) is a genre of Japanese picture book kusazōshi (草双紙) produced during the middle of the Edo period, from 1775 to the early 19th century. Physically identifiable by their yellow-backed covers, kibyōshi were typically printed in 10 page volumes, many spanning two to three volumes in length, with the average number of total pages being 30. Considered to be the first purely adult comicbook in Japanese literature, a large picture spans each page, with descriptive prose and dialogue filling the blank spaces in the image. Due to the numerous characters and letters in the Japanese language...
 
helix
helix
I meant the actual writing in Kibyoushi.
The handwritten ones.
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
Right
Especially hard for two-page spread on 300x200 pixels =)
 
helix
helix
I'm off to sleep. Thanks for the help guys. Learned a lot.
 
Anonymous
Does anyone have Shoichi Iwasaki's book Japanese?
 
Anonymous
3:04 PM
 
Anonymous
@helix Have a good night!
 
Choko
Choko
3:15 PM
@snailboat 持ってないです
「きょうと」って、HLL なのに、
「京都行き」だと、LHH HH になるのはどうして？
「わかやま」も、LHLL なのに、
「和歌山行き」だと、LHHH HH になる
カーナビの、音声を聞いていて、
「あれ？これ、いちいち、録音しなおしてんの？めんどくさっ」って思った
「げんきご」ってきこえないけど・・・
げきかわ？
なにそれ
話の内容がわからない。。。
ああ、
「劇カワ！コーデ」らしい
 
Earthliŋ
Earthliŋ
3:37 PM
@Choko いつも LH...H になるのかな
 
Choko
Choko
北海道って LLHLLL でも、北海道方面って、LLHHHH HLLL って、
LLHLLL が LLHHHH　になるっしょ
次に何か来ると、ＨＨＨ．．．　ってなる？
 
Anonymous
Well, if you think about it as becoming one big compound word,
 
Choko
Choko
3:52 PM
@AustinFrench 「遅い」「やっぱ芯まであったまったって感じ」「寒い」「あ、そうだ！ね、どう？劇カワ・コーデ。これ、なつ子さんに借りたの。いけてるっしょ。」「劇かわ」「ごめんね。‌​遅くなって。」「なに語？」「え？」「なに語？」「劇カワ。あ、リアル神田川。」
 
Anonymous
And each word can have only one drop in pitch…
 
Anonymous
And it usually comes from the second part
 
Anonymous
Then it makes sense, right?
 
Choko
Choko
4:05 PM
そうね、たぶん・・・
てか、そういうの、ぜんぜん
習ったことも考えたこともなかったので
「なんで？」って考えたら、「さあ・・・？」って感じ
「奈良」がHL なのに、「奈良行き」はLH HH なんて、
HLをLHに変えるなんて、
無茶やん
 
Anonymous
Because 行き is an "accent cancelling" suffix
 
Anonymous
Like ぐらい
 
Anonymous
That's what Martin's book says
 
Anonymous
It cancels the pitch accent on the word that comes before it, so it ends up just LHHH…
 
Anonymous
Pitch accent is still a little confusing for me :-)
 
Anonymous
4:14 PM
It's fun to talk about, though!
 
Choko
Choko
へえ、ぐらい・・・
「さんこくらい」とか
「３さいぐらい」「３せんちくらい」とかかな
 
Anonymous
Except that ぐらい has its own accent,
 
Anonymous
So it cancels the accent on the first word and then replaces it with its own accent
 
rintaun
rintaun
4:59 PM
well, my paper just officially became about コヒシ／コホシ【恋】, with タノモシ as a side note. I wanted to do サビシ／サモシ【寂】, but the only instance of サビシ in 万葉集 has ビ as 甲類 rather than the 乙類 one would expect from the 未然形 of a 上二段活用動詞, and サモシ doesn't exist in 上代 by all appearances... so that makes it sadly unacceptable as the primary topic
コヒシ／コホシ, on the other hand, I can make what I believe to be a very strong case for コヒシ＝コフ【恋】（未然形）＋シ, and コホシ=コフ【恋】（名詞化被覆形）＋シ
 
Anonymous
Say, are you familiar with the OCOJ?
 
rintaun
rintaun
nope
but it sounds awesome!
 
Anonymous
 
rintaun
rintaun
yeah googled it. this is going to come super in handy
wait wait, it's 左必之佐＜サビシサ＞... only that is ハ行のイ甲類, NOT バ行のイ甲類. everywhere else it is used as kana, it is "hi", not "bi"
 
Anonymous
@rintaun What references are you using?
 
Anonymous
5:14 PM
I've read more than once that 時代別国語辞典 is the best reference for words up to the 8th century
 
rintaun
rintaun
yep, have that one sitting in front of me
 
Anonymous
Oops, did I leave out 大?
 
rintaun
rintaun
unfortunately not the newly released edition
yeah, whatever. there's only really one 時代別 worth talking about anyway :D
 
Anonymous
I'll just call it 時代別 :-)
 
Anonymous
9:52 PM
Oops, I mixed up 膨大 and 拡大
 
Anonymous
Maybe I should try to think of them as 膨大な and 拡大する
 
Anonymous
So that I don't mix them up…
 

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