Japanese Language

12:08 AM

@Choko めっちゃ病んでるわ、心も体も。もうワシにはルックスしかあらへん。中身はポンコツや。あほお。さっ、ほな病院行ってくるさかい・・

8:14 AM

これはどういうことですか

This is the first time I saw the verb vent was used in a figurative way. That said, I guess 激ギレ is a slang for "fury", "rage", So probably the action included extremely emotional behaviours. — eltonjohn 30 mins ago

「キレる」「マジ切れ」「ブチ切れ」「逆切れ」等も、見たことがない、ということでしょうか？

Lorenz

おはようございまーす

dinogeist

いやーなんのことでしょう。

Choko

こんにちは

朝ですか

@dinogeist コメントで聞いてみます・・・

Lorenz

うん、スペインで！

あなたはどこにいるか？

Choko

京都ですよ

dinogeist

8:17 AM

あれじゃない？質問に出ているventの話じゃない？多分 first time I sawは激ギレのことではなく、質問者が使ってる英語の話ではないかなー

Choko

今、夕方です

@dinogeist ああ、わかりました

dinogeist

いやいや、本当にそうかわからないｗ
ただの推測にすぎないｗ

Lorenz

日本に住んでいますか！うらやましいなー

いつからそこに住んでいますか？

Choko

ずっと。。

Lorenz

チョコさん

Choko

8:20 AM

生まれてから、だいたい。。

ほぼずっと・・

きょうと。。

スペインに行ったことがないです

行ってみたいですねえ

Lorenz

おもしろい！なんかこのチャットの皆は外国人と思いましたね

昨日からこのチャットにいますからね

僕はもうスペインにいたくないですねｗｗ

@Lorenz えええええｗｗｗ

ドイツに戻りたい

わたしは、日本より、

ギリシャにいるよりましだなｗ

8:24 AM

あつすぎ！！

Choko

スペインやドイツの方がいいな

ああ、あついんだ！スペイン

@dinogeist それはいややｗｗ

dinogeist

ドイツも今40度らしいぞ！

Choko

ドイツも行かなかったよ

えっドイツってそんなにあついの

dinogeist

いやいや、例年は全くならない
何十年ぶりの異常天候

Choko

@dinogeist 体温超えてる

むしろ高熱

Lorenz

8:27 AM

うんｗｗでも海の前に済んでいるからなんか makes it worse ｗ

dinogeist

そうだねｗ
でも日本の大都市のヒートアイランド現象でも実際40度とかなるんじゃない？

Lorenz

humidityから

日本人はそのpainをたぶん分かりますねー

Choko

@dinogeist なるなる　大阪とか

dinogeist

そうだね（汗）
二年前とか東京ビッグサイトは46度になったとか

Choko

ひゃー

Lorenz

8:29 AM

かわいそう！

煮える

汗は僕の一番のenemyですｗ

熱めの温泉

wwww

ドイツいいなー

ノイシュバンシュタインとか

ロマンティーシェ・シュトラーシェ

Lorenz

8:31 AM

もう冬さん戻ってください！！

ドイツ人多分ほぼ行ったことないとこｗ

wwww

@dinogeist えええっ

いやいや、そうだよ
行かないよ、普通ｗ

うあ～ｗｗ

8:33 AM

うん、でもスペインいいよ

Romantische何？

楽しいし、おいしいし

ごめんでもそのカタカナをわかってません

Romantische Strasseだと思う

Choko

strasse

street

Lorenz

8:34 AM

あああ！行ったことないｗｗ

Choko

ドイツ語のss のくっついたの、

キーはどこ？

öäü

ない

Lorenz

スペインのキーボードにもそのキーがないｗｗ

ALT 225 をつかう

Straße

Choko

ß

Lorenz

チョコさんはドイツ語好きでしょうか

Choko

ßßß

found it

dinogeist

8:37 AM

ハイフンのとこかな？

Choko

ドイツ語は・・・

Lorenz

日本のキーボードでäëömo

mo

もないか？

Choko

右上の「ほ」のとこだった

そうそう、ハイフン

Ich kann nicht deutsch だっけ？

dinogeist

そうそう！
できてるくせに（笑）

Choko

これだけ覚えたｗ

Lorenz

8:42 AM

もういっぱいできるでしょうースペインには誰もßを分かってない

みんなはßがBと思うｗ

Choko

AßC

Lorenz

ｗｗｗ

オンライン名前でßを使う人いる

ROßEяTO

ガイストさんまさかドイツ人ですか

dinogeist

まあ、「ツ」や「シ」を絵文字として使う人だって海外にいるもんねｗ

そうなんだけどー

Choko

geist ってドイツ語？

Lorenz

Interessant!!

うん

Choko

8:46 AM

ガイスト

ゴーストです

いんてれっさんと

英語のゴースト

うん、ポルターガイストとかドイツ語だよｗ

おおたしかに

dino は？

dinogeist

8:47 AM

恐竜

dinosaurね

恐竜の幽霊

ディノザウリアー
Dinosaurier

英語と似てるう

"Ich bin da, wer noch?" - Die Dinos

そのshowが大好きだったｗ

dinogeist

8:48 AM

Haha, ja :P

英語もドイツ語も恐竜はラテン語から来てるんだろう

Lorenz

そうですよチョコさん

おお、知らなかった！

でも確かにスペイン語でDINOSAURIOというね

dinogeist

ああ、ヨーロッパ言語はそんな感じだね

Saurusはトカゲって意味だったけど、Dinoは覚えてないなｗ

Lorenz

ガイストさん、いつから日本にいるか？

Choko

dino は恐ろしい、らしい

dino geist は・・

dinogeist

@Lorenz 3年、かな！？

Choko

8:53 AM

恐ろしい幽霊

dinogeist

@Choko そうだったんだ！

いやいや、恐ろしいじゃなくて、恐竜の略だｗ

Choko

そやなｗ

Lorenz

チョコ、かれらは恐ろしいかー？

dinogeist

実際ドイツ語ではDinoに略すけど、他の言語は知らない

Lorenz

dinogeist

8:55 AM

超懐かしいｗ

Choko

うーん

可愛くないｗｗ

Lorenz

wwwwwwwwwwwまぁ now you say it they do look kinda creepy, when I was a kid I had a fear/love relationship with the baby ｗｗｗｗ

@dinogeist Nochmal! Nochmal!

Choko

のっほまーる

dinogeist

日本語版もあるみたいだｗ

nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18084575

Lorenz

「もう一回」ですね

Choko

8:58 AM

@l'électeur おかえり

びるこんめん・つりゅーく

ってあんまり使わないんだってね

なんていうんだろう

えと

ただいま、は　 Ich bin zurück　？

Lorenz

何をあんまり使わないですか？

Choko

Willkommen zurück?

dinogeist

あー、ただいま・お帰りの習慣があんまりないから、特に何も言わないｗ

普通にHALLO叫ぶｗ

Choko

ちょっといってきます、は？

Ich bin ~~ weg

?

Lorenz

うん、僕は言えに入るときでHALLOOOOOOとyell ｗｗｗ

dinogeist

9:05 AM

Ich bin kurz weg.

Lorenz

And like a glove my mother just stormed into the house and yelled hallo

Choko

ああ、それ

kurz

dinogeist

でも実際はドイツ人は大体用途を直接言うことが多い

Ich gehe/bin kurz XXX.

Choko

そおか・・

Ich gehe kurz... combini

dinogeist

Ich gehe kurz zum Kombini. / Ich gehe kurz einkaufen.

Choko

9:08 AM

買い物

Lorenz

俺はBin gleich daと言う

「今すぐ戻る」

Choko

kaufen は「買う」に似てる

Lorenz

確かにｗｗｗ

kaufenは買うだよ

Choko

ですねｗ

「買わへん」にも似てる

dinogeist

そうそう、似てるから覚えやすいよねｗ

@Lorenz Bin gleich wieder da.じゃない？

Choko

9:12 AM

Ich muss gehen ？

あってるのかな

dinogeist

うん、合ってる👍

Choko

Ich gehe kurz zu meine Mutters hous もう全然語尾変化分からん

Hous?

House?

dinogeist

*Haus

Lorenz

それは百パーセント正しい方、たしかに

Choko

Haus!

はうす！！

dinogeist

9:14 AM

Bin gleich daって電話でしか言わない気がするんだけどな

Choko

まいんごっと

dinogeist

*Ich gehe kurz zu meiner Mutter.

Choko

おおお

まいんぶっだ

dinogeist

マイ仏様？

Choko

Mein Buddha?

dinogeist

9:16 AM

そう
まいんぶっだｗ

Choko

@dinogeist Bin gleich wieder da　主語は省略？

Lorenz

Bin gleich daはどっか行ってるなら正しいけど、どっか戻りたいなら「wieder」を漬からなきゃ正しくないね

Choko

weider 再び、がいるのか・・・

むつかしい～

Lorenz

wiederはちょっとagainみたい

Bin gleich wieder da = Am soon again here

Choko

なるほろ～

dinogeist

9:21 AM

@Choko　そうそう、省略されてる。ドイツ語でも話し言葉になると意外とある

Lorenz

まだ恐竜家族を見ているｗ

Choko

Ich bin in zwei Stunden zurück.　これはかんたんっぽい

dinogeist

ばっちり！

Lorenz

でしょう？

Choko

Ich bin in drei Stunden zurück!

dinogeist

9:24 AM

ほんま？

Choko

Ciao! ←これドイツ語？

うん、一応

Lorenz

使う人がいるね

dinogeist

ドイツ語ではないけど使わなくはないｗ

ぼくもちょっとアウェイになりまーす

Lorenz

ぜったいあるｗ

adieu~

も言う人がいる

Choko

Tschüss!

dinogeist

9:26 AM

Tschööö!

Choko

(ちわーす！みたい)

Lorenz

Österreichde

でババって言うｗ

何か面白いと思う

*Austriaで

Earthliŋ

2:00 PM

@snailboat There's a proposal to include small capital Q into Unicode

Unfortunately, I can't tell whether that's being accepted or not...

unicode.org/L2/L2011/11208-n4068.pdf

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ Oh! Do want!

Earthliŋ

=)

I did find this though: unicode.org/alloc/Pipeline.html#characters_scripts

Anonymous

U+A7EE

Earthliŋ

HIRAGANA LETTER SMALL KO
KATAKANA LETTER SMALL KO
2011-Feb-08
Accepted 2012-Aug-03
Stage 3

small こ?

Anonymous

std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/wg2/docs/n3987.pdf

Anonymous

2:07 PM

That doesn't explain why...

Earthliŋ

Yes, I'm wondering why...

I can't believe a small こ is ahead of a small Q

for Japanese, the small Q would be much more useful =)

the document you linked also talks about KATAKANA LETTER SMALL KU...

Anonymous

Well, U+A7EE 'LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL Q' is not in Unicode 8.0: unicode.org/charts/PDF/UA720.pdf

Anonymous

unicode.org/L2/L2011/11416-request-on-n4068.pdf

Anonymous

std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n4253.pdf ← page 29

Anonymous

> We have a number of concerns on this proposal. There is no attested usage of these characters provided in the document. There is no clear evidence for using in plain text. They are just inventions for plain text. There is assumption that there is a need to fill up presentation forms in A to Z. If we are going to fill up all the gaps, we can have every letter in multiple forms for Latin and we need not limit to just Latin and so on. There is no particular reason for adding these.

Earthliŋ

2:24 PM

Awww

That's a shame. I want to request it again. Are they waiting for someone to use it via a hacked font (e.g. modify a font to display full-width Ｑ as small capital Q)?

Anonymous

I don't know. I don't know much about Unicode.

Anonymous

It's also true that many linguists use capital letters for all of those: /Q N R/ or /Q N H/

Anonymous

Although I'm always happy when I see linguists write things like tabuɴ

Anonymous

I think it looks much nicer with ɴ than N

Anonymous

Also, there are reasons to reserve capitals for other thingies. For example

Anonymous

2:30 PM

Some people write ～て・～た and so on as Te and Ta

Anonymous

Some people write あり as aR-

Earthliŋ

@snailboat why's that?

Anonymous

Well, the classical あり has a special irregular pattern of inflection, right? The 終止形 ends in -i instead of -u

Anonymous

But eventually aR- became ar-

Earthliŋ

i see

Anonymous

2:32 PM

You can use capital letters to indicate these things if you explain what you mean by them.

Earthliŋ

I like the phonemic transcription better than romanization

Anonymous

I think technically it is a type of romanization :-)

Earthliŋ

and some romanizations are already almost phonemic

i guess, yes

but it's not used outside of linguistics

and there's no small Q...

Anonymous

Most linguists consider the spoken language primary, and the written language to be basically a representation of the spoken language. So many linguists naturally tend toward using a phonemic romanization system, since it represents the spoken language fairly well. Of course, the particular type of transcription you use depends on what your purpose is.

Anonymous

Some people don't like mācrōns, which is understandable.

Anonymous

2:37 PM

Getting people to use them is like pulling teeth.

Anonymous

It's much more normal to write Tokyo than Tōkyō :-)

Earthliŋ

Well, I guess macrons are still easier to type than small capital letters, though...

Anonymous

Vowel doubling is common among linguists. Tookyoo.

Anonymous

But then that annoys people because they're used to thinking of it as とうきょう, which maps in their minds to Toukyou, even though no one says /toukyou/

Anonymous

So it comes to fisticuffs!

Earthliŋ

2:39 PM

I remember sawa writing EE and someone correcting his post...

Anonymous

And folks who don't know why people are writing ou and oo just get confused while learning the language.

Anonymous

They're like, "Why are you making me learn this crazy spelling!?"

Anonymous

So imagine how everyone would feel about /toʜkyoʜ/ :-)

Anonymous

I never liked /ʀ/...

Anonymous

/toʀkyoʀ/? Really?

Anonymous

2:41 PM

@Earthliŋ Incorrecting!

Earthliŋ

Yes, I should have said "editing"

Anonymous

:-)

Earthliŋ

@snailboat What language sees R as lengthening? Probably only the English accent...

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ And then only in specific phonetic contexts.

Anonymous

I don't know how it was chosen.

Anonymous

2:46 PM

But yeah, think about examples like card /kɑːd/ → カード /kaRdo/

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ Here's an example of small Q from 1968: dspace.wul.waseda.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2065/3124/3/…

Anonymous

In case it helps with your nascent reproposal

Anonymous

These days, people do tend to write taQte: gsid.nagoya-u.ac.jp/oshima/docs/tetataratari.pdf

Anonymous

Which I think is because there is no small Q!

Anonymous

I think taQte looks clumsy

Anonymous

2:55 PM

Then again, people use full caps for H and so on, too

Earthliŋ

I don't know much linguistics literature, so I don't know how successful a case I could possibly make

Anonymous

I'm a fan of Heiko Narrog, who uses small caps :-)

Anonymous

Narrog doesn't use /H/, by the way, instead writing things like daroo

Earthliŋ

5:15 PM

@snailboat Why are /H N Q/ called "special phonemes"?

Is it just because they're in capital letters?

I sort of see why /H Q/ would be special, but not /N/...

Anonymous

5:33 PM

/Q/ is an archiphoneme which does not represent a specific sound but assimilates to the following consonant (typically an obstruent, but occasionally a sonorant in some young speakers' speech)

Anonymous

It is a 特殊拍 'special mora'

Anonymous

Sometimes called the mora obstruent

Anonymous

/N/ is likewise an archiphoneme with a large number of realizations depending on its phonetic context

Anonymous

/Q/ and /N/ are the only exceptions to the coda constraint, that is, they're the only consonant segments which can form syllable codas (do not need to be followed by a vowel)

Earthliŋ

so "special" means "large number of realizations"?

for /N/ I mean

Anonymous

5:37 PM

/H/ as well is an archiphoneme whose realization depends on phonetic context, that is, /aH iH uH eH oH/ -> [aa ii ɯɯ ee oo]

Earthliŋ

i see

it looks not too difficult to make a succesful proposal: escholarship.org/uc/item/6r21t939#page-1

they just say "these two characters exist somewhere and might be used"

it seems like phonemic notation in other languages is "all-small". do you know something about linguistics in other languages?

Anonymous

Japanese terms: 特殊拍 (already mentioned) and 特殊モーラ (a synonym), also 非自立モーラ 'dependent mora'

Anonymous

Maybe 'dependent mora' as a label explains it better than 'special mora'

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ Not really

Earthliŋ

I like 非自立 better

Anonymous

5:42 PM

My main interests when it comes to linguistics are English and Japanese right now

Earthliŋ

are there any capital letters in English phonemics?

Anonymous

So in that sense, you can see the realization of all of /Q N H/ depends on the surrounding phonetic context

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ Only small caps

Earthliŋ

good, that's good news for our proposal =)

how about /X/?

as in "non-voiced"

is that used?

it was in that article with the small /Q/

Anonymous

I've never seen a capital X used in English IPA

Anonymous

5:47 PM

The original documents for IPA said specifically that they were to be all lowercase

Anonymous

They suggested using an asterisk to mark something as capitalized if necessary

Anonymous

But

Earthliŋ

@snailboat I mean for Japanese

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ Oh, to be honest, I'm not too sure about small caps /X/, I haven't seen it used very much

Earthliŋ

It's not in Unicode, I think...

but I was wondering if "non-voiced" is also a context-dependent phoneme... (which should be "small capital X")

Anonymous

5:51 PM

Well, I don't think most linguists today use a Latin letter small capital X for anything in Japanese

Anonymous

The books I have explaining special segments never mention it

Earthliŋ

ok

Anonymous

There is a fourth that is often mentioned, which is /J/

Anonymous

The mora palatal, basically [i] following another vowel

Anonymous

Searching for "かすれる拍" doesn't turn up very much

Anonymous

5:54 PM

I'm not really convinced /J/ is necessary

Anonymous

But there's already a ᴊ in Unicode, so I can write things like aᴊmaᴊ, I guess :-)

Anonymous

Obsolete and nonstandard symbols in the International Phonetic Alphabet

The International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) possesses a variety of obsolete and nonstandard symbols. Throughout the history of the IPA, characters representing phonetic values have been modified or completely replaced. An example is ⟨ɷ⟩ for standard [ʊ]. Several symbols indicating secondary articulation have been dropped altogether, with the idea that such things should be indicated with diacritics: ʮ for z̩ʷ is one. In addition, the rare voiceless implosive series ƥ ƭ ƈ ƙ ʠ has been dropped. Other characters have been added in for specific phonemes which do not possess a specific symbol in the IPA...

Anonymous

This page lists small capital Q and small capital R

Anonymous

Say, how can you tell whether that 'x' is a lowercase x or small capital X? :-)

Earthliŋ

=)

@snailboat but they don't list any source

Earthliŋ

6:15 PM

2. Has contact been made to members of the user community (for example: National Body, user groups of the script or characters, other experts, etc.)?
If YES, with whom?

YES! With @snailboat from Japanese.SE

Anonymous

Hahah

Anonymous

It's too bad I'm only a snailboat.

Earthliŋ

Yes, we need support of a professional linguist =)

I think the proposal wasn't successful, because the rationale provided was "by analogy with existing characters"

if you follow this reasoning, given a single superscript hard-coded, you should hard-code the whole script as superscript

or all kanji enclosed in parentheses, because there are (日), (月), etc. =)

Anonymous

I just follow the PITA (Pain In The Butt) Principle. Is it a pain in the butt not having small capital Q? Yes!

Anonymous

Can I work around it? Yes :-)

Earthliŋ

6:27 PM

i see

Anonymous

When I make small caps in HTML, they end up slightly taller than regular lowercase letters.

Anonymous

quarplet.com/q.html

Anonymous

So the Q looks a little funny.

Anonymous

Does that depend on the font I'm using? Do they have pre-made small caps?

Anonymous

Oh, they're even taller with Andika

Earthliŋ

6:34 PM

I think small caps are often taller than small letters

Anonymous

But for the small N H R J in Unicode, they line up with the small letters, which is what I want

Anonymous

Aww, if I futz with font-size, it ends up right on my desktop but wrong on my phone

Anonymous

Hey, it looks right on my phone without any futzing.

Anonymous

The small caps all line up perfectly with the regular small letters.

Anonymous

Hey, the star wall is all German! :-)

Earthliŋ

6:39 PM

yes, that's Choko's doing

she stars everything German =)

Anonymous

Schnecken!

Anonymous

A-ha, it's Firefox that renders the small caps taller than the other letters. Chrome and Safari do not

Anonymous

Taller in IE, too

Anonymous

So it's IE and FF versus Chrome and Safari

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