Japanese Language

11:22 AM

3

Q: What word that resembles "teikkai" might refer to "the provenance of a food"?

The introduction to the 10th Anniversary Edition of Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone contains the following passage on page 4 (emphasis added): Vegetarians have often used the phrase "I don't eat anything with a face on it," to describe their food choices as plant-based. But there is another i...

Is this a snipe hunt?

There is a possibility that the word tekkai that the author used does not actually correspond to what the author thinks it is supposed to correspond to

oals

11:38 AM

What does 「化けてでる」 mean here?

「おかげで安心して死ねるよ。その言葉を聞いとかないと、この世に未練が残って、化けてでるかもしれないからな。」

I guess it's 化けて出る

And perhaps: "I'll become a roaming ghost in the afterlife due to my regrets."

Or that's my best guess so far.

化けて、この世から出る

Schoko

11:53 AM

@oals お化けになって、出る・・・≒現れる、みたいな・・

お化けが出る、幽霊が出る、っていうときの

「出る」

辞書で「出る」を見ても、どれかよく分からないので

ここの、　dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/175617/meaning/m0u/…

oals

Thanks. Those were roughly my thoughts, but I decided to ask for confirmation.

Schoko

これとか。「１本来の姿・形を変えて別のものになる。「狐が人間に―・ける」「―・けて出る」」

oals

I'm not very familiar with Japanese / Buddhist beliefs either.

Oh, it seems 化けて出る is a fixed phrase.

thesaurus.weblio.jp/content化けて出る

えっと

thesaurus.weblio.jp/content/…

Schoko

そそ・・お化け・幽霊になって、(あなたの目の前に)現れる、みたいな。

たぶん、「うらめしや～～呪ってやるう～」とか言って。。。

oals

やめてくれ。怪談に弱いよ。^^

Schoko

12:26 PM

👻

Anonymous

12:49 PM

Eep! :-)

Anonymous

By the way, it's so neat having 3 moderators! :-)

Anonymous

@Flaw Did anyone ever contact the author?

Flaw

@snailboat I have no idea

Anonymous

Hmm, I'm not sure anyone can post a real answer to it right now :-(

Flaw

there's 提供 but it isn't specific to food

Anonymous

1:00 PM

Poor Splikie. That user has been trying a lot harder lately, but still gets a downvote on every post.

Flaw

0

A: に as an indirect complement

So yesterday I was trying to understand this a little better. I think that に is just the answer japanese has to most of the indirect compliments. There are Transitive and Intransitive verbs Transitive verbs have Subject=The one who performs the action Direct Object=The one which the action a...

this is one long answer

I suspect the -1 vote came from the last section where he switched が・に in the example with 映える

Anonymous

Is Splikie a he? I thought it sounded like a girl's name, but I can't tell

Anonymous

I think the answer is probably a bit confused but I upvoted the question :-)

Anonymous

It's a nice attempt at a self-answer, at least

Anonymous

I think the whole idea of an "indirect complement" is a little confusing, though

Anonymous

1:13 PM

An object is a type of complement

Anonymous

And an indirect object is a kind of object

Anonymous

But the term "indirect complement" isn't one I'm familiar with

Anonymous

Splikie wrote: 'When I say indirect complement I mean the answer to every question which is not "Whom?" "What?". (that is how it is my native language at least).'

Anonymous

But that doesn't seem to fit any natural grammatical category in Japanese

Anonymous

Many answers to questions other than those will involve adjuncts rather than complements

Anonymous

1:17 PM

And they could be many different types of constituent

Anonymous

Overall I think the OP is a little confused and needs someone to write a separate answer

Flaw

so the "indirect complement" is not に, but rather what is marked by に right?

mirka

2:26 PM

If anyone wants to be spooked, search for ががばば on yahoo.co.jp

Schoko

2:40 PM

@mirka あっそれやったことあります

大きい画面でやった方が面白い

mirka

テレビ放送みてなくて、怖いとかなんの事前情報もなしに「やってみ〜」って言われてやったから、完全に椅子から飛び上がったｗ

Schoko

あはは。私はパソコンに誰かがハッキングとかしたのかと思った

一瞬、「やばっ、コンピュータウイルス！？」みたいな

mirka

21世紀の貞子だわ……

Schoko

m川°д川m

Schoko

4:12 PM

"indirect complement" ってなんだかよくわからない

間接補語？なんだっけ、それ

間接目的語ならわかる。。。

Schoko

4:30 PM

あっmirkaさんが回答した

というわけで寝よう。おやすみ～

mirka

おやすみなさい

I've learned so much by googling all the jargon that gets thrown around here :)

Darius Jahandarie

7:57 PM

Hmm, what accounts for the voicing of た in 手伝う? I don't think I've ever noticed 連濁 do that before.

Anonymous

That's metathesis.

Anonymous

At least, presumably.

Anonymous

You could always ask it and see if anyone has some historical/dialectal evidence :-)

Anonymous

I learned the word 手伝う before 伝う, and it confused me a lot at first!

Anonymous

urgell.blog62.fc2.com/blog-entry-72.html

Anonymous

8:10 PM

I guess without some evidence all we can really do is speculate

Anonymous

It sure looks like metathesis, though, doesn't it? :-)

Anonymous

The earliest citation in 日本国語大辞典 is from 虎寛本狂言・米市, which is dated rather vaguely as 室町未-近世初

Anonymous

/du/ hadn't yet assibilated by 1500

Anonymous

So it could have been the same /d/ sound in だ and づ at that time

Anonymous

I hit a dead end :-(

Anonymous

8:18 PM

I guess an answer doesn't need solid evidence, though, if it can just explain a couple different theories and say that it's all speculative

Anonymous

Reanalysis as てつ＋たふ is an interesting idea too

Anonymous

That sort of thing happens all the time, where people split things differently over time.

Anonymous

Like when American English speakers colloquially say a whole nother, resplitting an|other as a|nother

Anonymous

Or how we say an apron now instead of a napron :-)

Anonymous

Or the /d/ might not be rendaku

Anonymous

8:25 PM

I guess one problem with answering questions like this is that, since they're exceptions, we can't point to a bunch of other examples and conclude that it's most likely the same as those :-(

Darius Jahandarie

Hmmm!

I'll take your advice and ask it as a question. Seems sufficiently interesting!

Anonymous

Yeah! And it's funny how I started out pretty sure, then realized I was way too sure of myself, and now I know I have no idea :-)

Anonymous

I really thought I'd read somewhere that it was metathesis, but I can't find anything definitive in any of my references.

mirka

8:43 PM

Wow 知らなかった en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebracketing

Reminds me of how followers of 安室奈美恵 were called アムラー (amuro-er), and then 〜ラー started to be a thing on its own. Like, people who were mayonnaise lovers were called マヨラー.

あ、ウィキペにちゃんと書いてあった。
> マヨネーズ（mayonnaise）の「マヨ」に「～する人」を意味する英語の接尾辞「-er」を加えたものである。「マヨ」に続く子音nからすると「マヨナー」となるはずであるが、「マヨラー」の呼称が定着した。この呼称が広まった背景には、90年代半ばに当時のマスメディアが、「アムラー」（安室奈美恵の模倣者達）ブームにかこつけて、様々なものに安直に「ラー」の語尾を付け普及させていった経緯がある[要出典]。

Anonymous

I guess that explains the /r/ in キティラー too? I had no idea :-)

Anonymous

I don't know too many slang terms like that one

mirka

9:00 PM

I'd really like to see other examples of rebracketing in Japanese. Can't think of any off the top of my head…

Anonymous

Well, more generally there are all sorts of reanalysis. Like, 愛する ai=suru is being gradually reanalyzed as 愛す ais-u, with the /s/ as part of the stem. Right now, people most often say 愛する rather than 愛す, but when they negate it it's most often 愛さない instead of 愛しない.

Anonymous

The traditional term for the kind of reanalysis Wikipedia calls rebracketing is "metanalysis" (due to Jespersen)

Darius Jahandarie

1

Q: Why is the た in 手伝う voiced?

て＋つたう→てつだう Unexpectedly, the た from つたう turns into だ. 連濁, at least with the 手+伝う analysis, can't account for this, because it's not the first consonant of 伝う. What happened here? 和訳て＋つたう→てつだう以外に、「つたう」の「た」が有声化されて「だ」になります。「手＋伝う」という解析であれば、「た」は「伝う」の最初の子音ではないので、連濁が原因にはならないと思います。何が原因...

phonology

(It took me so long to figure out a natural way to write "What happened here?" in Japanese lol.)

Anonymous

9:19 PM

I upvoted! :-)

Anonymous

Say, how should we tag this question?

Anonymous

2

Q: "事故にでもあったのではあるまいか。" grammar help please?

I came across this example in a textbook, and I can't figure out the grammar of the 2nd sentence: 彼から来るはずの連絡がない。事故にでもあったのではあるまいか。 ok: The correspondence from him that was expected has not come. 事故にでもあったのではあるまいか。 I've no idea what 事故にでもあった means. I can only imagine tokenizing as: ...

grammar

Darius Jahandarie

Thanks! For the tags too.

Anonymous

We don't have a particle-demo.

Anonymous

To my surprise, some people don't consider でも a single particle.

Anonymous

9:20 PM

I don't fully understand why or why not.

Anonymous

I know etymologically it's で＋も of course.

mirka

@snailboat Oh, then this must be a case of reanalysis too. The -み slang: matchamttm.hatenablog.com/entry/2012/10/17/005558

Anonymous

Ah, it's a 副助詞 in 明鏡国語辞典, that's good enough for me :-)

Darius Jahandarie

明鏡 is awesome. I've been using it on my phone for months now thanks to your recommendation.

I've noticed it doesn't have near as many entries as 大辞林／大辞泉 though. At least the version I have on my phone.

Anonymous

9:36 PM

It's a really good dictionary for Modern Japanese. The most comprehensive dictionary of historical Japanese is 日本国語大辞典, although 時代別国語辞典 is supposed to be the best reference for words up to the 8th century

Anonymous

And it's good to have at least one 古語辞典, preferably a 全訳 one

Anonymous

I have 旺文社, and the 学研全訳 is free online kobun.weblio.jp

Anonymous

I like to use different dictionaries for different things :-)

Anonymous

I didn't originally expect to use 明鏡 much, but it turned out to be my favorite dictionary!

Anonymous

日本語国語大辞典 is the biggest dictionary of Japanese words

Anonymous

9:41 PM

Do you have JapanKnowledge through your university?

Darius Jahandarie

Not sure, how do I find out?

Anonymous

I assume it would be through the library

Anonymous

日本国語大辞典 can be accessed through JK

Darius Jahandarie

Yeah, but there is no list of sources or anything, we just have a search engine that indexes a bunch of things we have access to. Searching for random Japanese words doesn't seem to return anything relevant, so I guess I don't have access to it.

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