@DariusJahandarie Is it OK to say "The last person who was standing will be the winner." while the match even doesn't get started? Is it standard? If so, that helps me a lot :)

My word choice (sigh) represents my insufficient understanding of English grammar... I perhaps should use your sentences if you don't mind

@broccoliforest I think it's possible, but it's poor writing, since the default reading of the subordinate clause is in the past (not relative past) and the relative past reading only occurs if the past reading is canceled somehow.

Show it to anyone and it'd likely be corrected to "is standing" and "stands up" respectively, most likely.

"In this game, people sit up and down in a random order. Randomly, a bell rings, and once that happens the last person who was standing will be the winner."

There is somewhere where it works fine as relative past.

thank you. so, the most legal way still is "will have been standing"?

No, "had been standing" is probably the way to force that interpretation.

oh, really

so

The last person who had been standing will be the winner?

Yeah. It feels verbose without context, but I don't think it's as marked as the "was standing" version.

But I should not be the source of truth of the right English glosses because I'm not yet sure I properly understand the Japanese sentences.

your interpretations above seems fine to me

For 「最後に立っていたものが勝者だ。」, where the matrix clause is being interpreted as occurring in the future -- at that point in time, the winner must no longer be standing, correct? That is, the standing ended at some point before that point (for relative past), or at some point before utterance (for past)?

Probably using some pictures is the easiest way to explain this huh. :-)

ahh I got your meaning

no, not necessarily

wait a minute

I think this might be weird because you can actually interpret the ている in multiple ways I think

Argh. :-)

I realized it could be very weird when the tense meets qualifier

You mean the 最後に?

oh, yes

in the second sentence, it doesn't seem to have much chance that standing is continuing at the reference point

or just my imagination?

No, I agree that that is at least the default reading

５分前から立っていたものが勝者だ

What do you think of this one?

the person is still standing, I think

at the reference point

Yeah.

I think the difference is how you interpret ている...

maybe the 立っている is ambiguous? resultative and progressive?

hmmm

I don't think it's progressive

Progressive would be like, someone standing up super slowly

It's more of resultative vs perfective, I think

progressive means, just like English stand

I mean, I think progressive is the wrong word to use

progressive means, just like English stand

金田一 actually says there are some verbs have multiple aktionsart

Since when you call 食べている the progressive, it is equivalent to 食べつつある, but 立っている is definitely not 立ちつつある

去年立っている人 = [去年立って]（今）いる人 is what I would call perfective, if you don't mind my sort of weird way of breaking that out

blog.livedoor.jp/green_idea/archives/1090756.html

Mm. I see what you're saying and I agree with the ambiguous interpretation, but don't agree with your reasoning behind it

I think this ambiguity exists with all 瞬間動詞

I think your 食べる is 継続動詞

Yes, ignore 食べる, I was just trying to say that "progressive" was not a good term to be using because I think "progressive" should be reserved for when the meaning matches the meaning you get when you use つつある

OK, I understand

In general, it seems you can mix a past time with ている and force the perfective reading with any 瞬間動詞

indeed, but I don't think it's limited to 瞬間動詞

Yeah, that's right. The ambiguity is between progressive and perfective for 継続動詞

The resultative and progressive seem pretty similar to me though, leading to more confusion about what is going on when dealing with 瞬間動詞.

mmm...

yes, you're right with them

Oh shoot, I meant to say "the resultative and perfective seem pretty similar to me though"* earlier.

ah, OK, now I think I understand you

Argh, 頭が爆発しそう（笑）

weird, I can't come up with 瞬間動詞 + ていた examples...

最も長く結婚していた人が勝者だ。

thank you

in this case, 結婚していた seems to be relative past

oh no, not necessarily

maybe:

the moment judging the victory condition is relatively past than the the moment declaring the winner?

that's what た means here?

What do you mean by "than the"?

...relatively past compared with...

Hmm

今最も長く結婚していた人が明日の試合の勝者だ。

Does this sentence help reduce possible interpretations?

(Is that even grammatical?)

yes, in this case, 結婚していた is past (not natural enough though)

or to say, no longer

明日の時点で最も長く結婚していた人が、あさって表彰されます

Hah. And I think in this one, they are still married?

they may or may not be married at the moment of あさって

Right

ルールが把握できない…

They also may or may not be married at the moment of 明日, right?

@DariusJahandarie now I think twice, the former one is also 今立っているかどうかわからない

@DariusJahandarie no, they must be married on 明日

@broccoliforest Yeah, the former can also be 今立っているかどうかわからない, but without context it seems to suggest that they are no longer standing

@DariusJahandarie not necessarily, it just tells that, the moment the speaker confirmed they were standing, is past

wait a moment

it depends on context, I think

Yeah.

I mean, whether the default reading becomes "no longer" or not

When you say その時, it so far removes the past time that it would be silly to think of whether it has any implication on the status of the 勝者 currently, but when you don't say it, it really depends on context.

yes, you're right

now I feel it became much clearer at least to me

possible

and you're right

Well, I still feel like I have no idea what's going on, lol

I need to go do the other things I should have been doing before this very interesting conversation, but I'll think about this more...

so, regarding to my post, it seems to end up to be the matter of time gap between "the point observing only one is standing" and "the point deciding the winner"

@DariusJahandarie argh, I remembered some tasks I should do, too...

:-)

Thanks for helping me try to understand all this!

probably, it's not the question of the event happens in the past or not, in the very first place

it's all about what moment the event is observed

that's my conclusion so far

@DariusJahandarie thank you for helping me, it was very rewarding conversation!

wrong italic position... the event -> happens

@broccoliforest I tried answering it. I feel like I should be able to give a better explanation about the ていた issue, but I'm not sure about it yet.

I just found an awesome list of papers: homepages.uconn.edu/~stk12004/Classes/UConn/6040/Japanese/…