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12:11 PM
@snailboat Is this zero conditional?
I'm so confused by the categorization
 
Anonymous
Linguists don't use the Three Conditionals analysis
 
There are 4 though: 0-3
 
Anonymous
It's a set of baby rules to teach learners how to put sentences together, but inadequate as a description
 
Anonymous
Yabbut, it's not called the Four Conditionals :-)
 
@snailboat How would you describe this conditional then?
 
Anonymous
12:17 PM
How would you describe it? :-)
 
Zero conditional
 
Anonymous
What problem are you having with it?
 
But I'm a baby
Hmmm, 条件 is quite different from "condition" (as in "conditional sentences")
 
Anonymous
Ignoring backshift, you can generally put together any conditional in English that's semantically valid
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays That's the term used in grammar though
 
> 5 (「…したところ」の形で接続助詞的に用いて)上述した内容を条件として文を続ける。順接にも逆接にも用いる。「訪ねた―、不在だった」「依頼した―、断られた」
Conditional is 仮定条件, which is but a subset
 
Anonymous
仮定条件 is "hypothetical condition"
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays I don't know what exactly you want me to describe about it
 
I'm just trying to understand 条件 as used in the definition above, so I've been reading a bunch of random stuff
 
Anonymous
It's a conditional construction. There's an if-clause with a "relevance" protasis, and an apodosis with 'll which adds some epistemic weakening
 
Anonymous
12:31 PM
@3to5businessdays Oh
 
Anonymous
I meant I was confused about what you were asking about my English sentence earlier :-)
 
@snailboat I was reading about 0-3 conditionals, and then I saw your sentence...
 
Anonymous
This sorta dealie?
 
Anonymous
12:36 PM
> If you need some help, Helen is willing to lend a hand.
 
Anonymous
> If you're interested, Dick's coming to the party too.
 
Anonymous
The thingy on the left is the protasis ("If you're interested"). It's a subordinate clause with if as a head
 
Anonymous
The thingy on the right is the apodosis.
 
I fear I may have 明後日の方を向いている
 
Anonymous
These examples show a "relevance" protasis, a condition on the relevance of the apodosis
 
Anonymous
12:38 PM
"Dick's coming to the party" is relevant "if you're interested"
 
Anonymous
(not true, but relevant)
 
Anonymous
It's a special kind of conditional.
 
It's not as tightly bound
 
Anonymous
In the Three Conditionals analysis taught to learners,
 
Anonymous
You also learn about Mixed Conditionals
 
Anonymous
12:40 PM
Which mix together the halves from the different numbers
 
Anonymous
But really the main rule is that both sides have to make sense together
 
Is that what したところ is doing though?
 
Anonymous
See, I've been having trouble connecting our discussions of English and Japanese :-)
 
Anonymous
Since 0-3 conditionals don't have anything to do with Japanese conditionals...
 
Oh it does, but I don't think it matches well, is all
 
Anonymous
12:43 PM
How are you trying to connect them?
 
Ok let me start from the beginning
 
Anonymous
Yay
 
Hah
I was looking up on the pattern したところ
Encountered this definition
> 5 (「…したところ」の形で接続助詞的に用いて)上述した内容を条件として文を続ける。順接にも逆接にも用いる。「訪ねた―、不在だった」「依頼した―、断られた」
Then I tried to figure out what 条件 means here
条件 sounds kind of similar to "condition"
So eventually I ventured into "conditionals"
Somehow I bumped into the 3 Conditionals
Then I realize this 条件 might not be about "conditionals" at all
But something far more sinister
 
Anonymous
Hehe!
 
-- お仕舞い --
(Yes the story ended with a sinister "Hehe")
 
Anonymous
12:48 PM
Conditionals are just things like, "if P then Q"
 
Anonymous
The details vary a lot from construction to construction and in different languages
 
Anonymous
So 条件 is actually kind of non-specific with respect to the specific kind of relationship
 
It's a very flexible term
 
Anonymous
Sorry for talking about English :-)
 
Anonymous
I wonder what you call 確定条件 in English
 
Anonymous
12:59 PM
My dictionary calls it a "fixed condition"
 
Thing is, it's hard for me to associate "condition" with words like "because", "although", "even if" etc.
 
Anonymous
Ah, now I think I understand why you were talking about condition being different from 条件
 
Anonymous
And why you said 仮定条件 is conditional
 
Anonymous
You were saying that's a subset of 条件, which also has 確定条件
 
Anonymous
Like 逆接確定条件 「行くけど」
 
Anonymous
1:04 PM
Am I understanding you right?
 
いぇs、あbそぅてly
 
Anonymous
Whew
 
Anonymous
When you started by talking about English, I got off on an English-centric way of thinking and I got confused when we changed subjects :-)
 
Anonymous
My apologies!
 
No, it was my fault
明後日の方を向いている
 
Anonymous
1:06 PM
Hehe
 
Anonymous
1:17 PM
@3to5businessdays Does it help if you sort of think of if/when as a kind of spectrum?
 
Anonymous
Like, with ~たら closer to the when side of things
 
1:29 PM
when has multiple meanings though );
Oh, wait. Somehow I misread that as “when being somewhere in the spectrum of if
 
 
3 hours later…
4:09 PM
揺らぎやすい・・・どういう意味やろ・・・
体調が崩れやすいってことかな?
おおここか
 
4:22 PM
う~ん??
 
 
2 hours later…
Xeo
6:27 PM
Ugh, what a bad question that translation one.
 
 
4 hours later…
10:41 PM
> In Japanese, sometimes there are two types of the same verb often referred to as transitive and intransitive verbs. The difference between the two is that one verb is an action done by an active agent while the other is something that occurs without a direct agent
 
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