Japanese Language

A: What does this mean in japanese?

heh... I see... I got ~10 pings :)

Anonymous

Ohh, I forgot it did that :-)

Anonymous

2:46 AM

2

Because the weather was nice, I took a break from school [lit: university] and spent an hour doing hanami. hanami: looking at cherry blossoms.

Anonymous

Is having answers on off-topic questions like this one problematic?

Anonymous

And if so, what should we do?

They are definitely more useful than useless.

When there's question is is better to have an answer. Off or on topic - does not matter really.

Anonymous

3:14 AM

@jkerian Sorry about all the pings :-)

it's nice to see that cleaned up

The FAQ for "Why did my question get closed" gets a bit more attention, because people are annoyed when they read it. This one is more "Why did my question/answer get edited?"

Anonymous

Where's that FAQ?

Anonymous

japanese.stackexchange.com/help/closed-questions

Anonymous

I see this

Anonymous

3:31 AM

I can deal with romaji, although it's often harder to make the connections between romaji and spoken words because you get so much less practice reading romaji

Anonymous

(Reading is highly overlearned, so we're fast at whatever we practice, and slow at whatever we don't)

Anonymous

But one thing that never stops confusing me is when Japanese words are listed in alphabetical order in an index

Anonymous

It twists my brain in a way it does not want to go :-)

3:46 AM

イあmふんgry。。。

3:56 AM

I think the biggest problem with our rules and guidance is not in the details, but just that they're spread all over meta and are impossible to just wander upon.

It would be nice if there was one big master thread which was perma-linked somewhere very visible on the main site.

Like the "Featured on Meta" box, maybe.

@snailboat err... I mean the faq you're editing and the "What's not allowed" one

Anonymous

4:27 AM

Oh yeah!

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie The Help Center is supposed to something. I'm not sure what. But something.

Anonymous

Unfortunately, I think most people ignore the Help Center.

Anonymous

It used to be called the FAQ, but then people on English.SE grumped that "frequently asked questions" should refer to whichever questions (like, actual Question questions on the site itself) are asked frequently

Anonymous

And then they redesigned the help center, so instead of having a single link with a big page you could scroll through (with the important stuff at the top), it now has a whole bunch of pages people don't look at

Anonymous

Of course, every time you add a click, you lose people.

4:31 AM

Right. Also, I think "help" is the wrong word. For me, "help" is associated with the type of information you find in those old-school F1 dialogs: painfully long, mostly useless, targeted at computer beginners who don't have intuition for UIs.

Anonymous

I liked it the way it used to be.

A problem more local to the SE sites, is that I don't have a good feel for what content is site-specific and what content is the same across all SEs.

Anonymous

It was right there in the top bar, instead of clicking "help" to find "help center" and then looking to see if you can find something relevant, a minimum of 3 clicks

Anonymous

And we could edit the thingy at the very top.

Anonymous

We can still edit it, but I think no one looks at it anymore. :-)

Anonymous

4:34 AM

It lives here now: japanese.stackexchange.com/help/on-topic

Anonymous

We can't edit anything else, but the SE overlords can. Well, and overladies. I think Laura edits them.

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie Can you give an example?

Anonymous

"Content" meaning like, rules and so forth?

Anonymous

"On our site, the code markdown is automatically translated into Comic Sans to make people who use it feel bad. We don't discuss code on NotCode.SE, and we don't use code markdown for stuff that isn't code."

"Help" might be better called "How the site works", but there are tons of links in the non-logged-in variant of the front page of "Here's how it works" to the /tour page

4:38 AM

@snailboat It comes down to having been "burned" before -- it's a learned behavior. Namely that I decide to go say, click on a link in the help center, and it's some generic entry that is on all SEs, meaning I've wasted my click. I have no way of knowing which entries are unique, so it becomes a mystery-meat time-wasting bonanza.

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie A-ha, now I see what you mean

Anonymous

Yes, it seems like the sort of stuff we train ourselves not to look at

Is there something we can do to make the situation better? I think there is a lot of unique information to Japanese.SE that is important, or at least beneficial for our users to know about.

Anonymous

I don't know. Have any ideas? :-)

None aside from the one I mentioned earlier.

I guess a variation on it would be to use our privileged access to the DOM via the furigana script to add the link somewhere else. But either way, I think it comes down to hand-crafting a page which is easily discoverable.

Anonymous

4:50 AM

We can start a blog, too, if it makes sense. I don't know if that would help anything.

Like, one that users can post whatever they want on?

I've seen this: security.blogoverflow.com

Anonymous

I don't actually know how it works

I'm not sure how happy I am with the Q & multi-answer format we have for our FAQs. There's so much extra interface baggage, the order is uncontrollable, and forming things explicitly as questions is often silly.

Sometimes the question turns into an "abstract" about the entry, but one of the signs of really good writing is that you don't need any of that type of signposting.

So I think it is sometimes harmful.

Anonymous

5:06 AM

Meta is poorly designed

Anonymous

It's basically "We have a hammer, let's use that!"

Could write everything in the question and then close the question.

I think that stuff is less important than making the information discoverable though. :)

8:27 AM

"That is so" vs "that seems to be so" - でしょう suggests uncertainty (I think :>). — Xeo 31 mins ago

Input on the correctness of ^?

Anonymous

8:41 AM

Well, でしょう is definitely used to express uncertainty

Anonymous

Seem is more like an evidential marker, though, like 〜ようだ for example

Anonymous

> 'Speculative' だろう
>
> The meaning of だろう has been variously defined as "expressing that a conclusion has not yet been reached, and that a judgment is in the process of being formed" (Moriyama 1992b: 73, 80), as "the speaker cognizing some proposition as true in his/her imagination" (Miyake 1997: 70), or as "presenting a state-of-affairs as uncertain, and as belonging to the realm of the speaker's inference and thought" (Nitta 2000: 94).
>
> (Modality in Japanese, Narrog p.105-106)

How much uncertainty does it express? i.e., "there's a chance that is so" vs "it most likely is so"

Anonymous

You could consider it to be more certain than 〜かもしれない but less certain than 〜にちがいない

mh

8:52 AM

@Xeo 天気予報 often say blablabla雨でしょう。

so saying "as certain as Japanese wheather forecast" would be right I guess?

Anonymous

It's usual to use epistemic weakening when talking about the future. We do it in English, too, although it's not exactly equivalent

Anonymous

We use the modal auxiliary will all the time when talking about the future

Anonymous

Although we don't have to, and we can use will when talking about the present, too

could you please give an example?

Anonymous

Modality is always a tricky subject in any language, I think

Dan Hulme

8:55 AM

yeah, I've always found it odd in English that "I'm sure that ..." usually means the opposite

Anonymous

@DanHulme Yeah, modal markers like "no doubt" indicate epistemic weakening

In Latvian I can only think about two ways to say about future - one is not expressed by using any auxiliary words but is embedded into the grammar, another is same but has "they said so" level of certainty. So "will" in present in English somewhat puzzles me.

Anonymous

@Rilakkuma Will can be used with past, present, or future time reference. It's a modal auxiliary, usually expressing epistemic modality, but it has a conventionalized use for expressing future time

Dan Hulme

@snailboat that's what I just said!

Anonymous

That's not its sole use

Anonymous

8:57 AM

@DanHulme Well, yes, I was generalizing and agreeing with you

can you please give some example of non-future use? I am not being stingy, I just want to see how it works in the real life. :)

Anonymous

Because a basic proposition unadorned by modality: "He's at the store now." is very certain, stating the proposition as fact, whereas "No doubt he's at the store now." adds some modality to it. A proposition without modal meaning is certain, whether it's positive or negative

Anonymous

You can't make it more certain by adding modality to it

Anonymous

> "He will have left already." (past) "He will be in Paris now." (present) "He will see her tomorrow." (future)

Anonymous

> "He may have left already." (past) "He may be in Paris now." (present) "He may see her tomorrow." (future)

Anonymous

8:58 AM

Will and may are both modal auxiliaries

Anonymous

Examples from CGEL

amzing, thank you!

Anonymous

From the top of page 210

All that linguistic terminology @_@

Anonymous

> Notice, moreover, that may and will are themselves present tense forms. In examples like [the above] this present tense encodes the time of the modal judgment, and it is possible for the present tense modal to be modified by the time adjunct now: Now we will/may not be in time to see the start. And in dynamic uses of will this present time meaning tends to be more salient.

Anonymous

9:01 AM

> In I've asked him to help us but he won't, for example, won't indicates his present disposition (compare but he can't, indicating present inability), and in This door won't lock I am talking about the present properties of the door (Compare You can't lock this door).

Anonymous

Yeah, sorry 'bout that :-)

yeah, I always hold the English-English dictionary besides when reading @snailboat

Anonymous

I talk English real good like.

too many "o"'s in "good"

Anonymous

0

Q: そうです and そうでしょう

What's the difference? I know when we use そうです but I can't figure out the other. I know ましょう is used to suggest stuff, but I don't know how it fits with そうでしょう.

word-usage

Anonymous

9:04 AM

The OP here is trying to relate ましょう to でしょう

:)

Anonymous

Someone needs to put out that 助動詞「う」 has a different meaning in those two

Anonymous

Or at least, a different range of meanings

Wait. う is an auxilliary verb?

Anonymous

In the Japanese parts of speech, in traditional grammar, it is a 助動詞

Anonymous

9:07 AM

That's just what you'll find it under in a dictionary

Anonymous

In a less traditional analysis it would be called -(y)oo, but y'all don't want to be burdened by the evil romajis... :-)

Anonymous

"Auxiliary verb" is a non-ideal translation for 助動詞

Anonymous

Since things like 〜ない or 〜ようだ don't inflect like verbs

So... how exactly is "ましょう" (etymologically) formed then?

is it like Gingko Biloba belonging to Conifers in the past for the lack of better class?

Anonymous

9:08 AM

助動詞「ます」の未然形「ませ」＋助動詞「う」

Anonymous

And then a sound change turned ませう into ましょう

面白い。

Anonymous

And う was historically む

Anonymous

kobun.weblio.jp/content/%E3%82%80

And for でしょう?

Anonymous

9:10 AM

We don't know the precise etymology of です, but much the same thing. It's the same う

Anonymous

Note that this 「う」 is always pronounced オ

Anonymous

Historically, though, it was actually う

Anonymous

In general, だろう and related forms are built on で＋ある

Anonymous

So で＋あろう　→　であろう／だろう

Anonymous

です had to come from something like that but it's not entirely clear what (であります？　でございます？)

Anonymous

9:12 AM

There are multiple theories

Anonymous

大辞林 sez:

Anonymous

> 「です」の語源については，「でそう（で候）」説，「でござります」説，「であります」説，その他があるが，まだ定説化されたものはない。

So, で＋ありませ＋う -> でありましょう -> でしょう is a possibility?

Anonymous

Yes, something along those lines

Anonymous

That form of ます (meaning ませ) is the same one used before the negative ん (from ぬ)

Anonymous

9:14 AM

ありませ＋ぬ→ありません

忘れぬちゅらーさん

Anonymous

You can think of です as being short for であります, though, regardless of what the actual etymology is

Wait, now いらっしゃいませ makes sense (apart from being a set phrase). Yay.

indeed

Anonymous

In the traditional analysis (Japanese school grammar), inflecting words have six inflecting forms.

Anonymous

9:19 AM

The first form is the one negatives attach to, and for ます this is ませ

Anonymous

The sixth form is the imperative form, and for ます this is also ませ

Anonymous

You can think of いらっしゃいませ as an imperative form

@snailboat It's only 1 or 5 forms now, right?

I love these tidbits of information about Japanese etymology. I never cared much for German or English etymology, but I find it really interesting for Japanese for some reason.

Anonymous

@Xeo 未然形・連用形・終止形・連体形・仮定形・命令形。 Not all words make distinctions between all forms

Anonymous

So for example, the distinction between 終止形 and 連体形 was lost for all verbs

Anonymous

9:23 AM

But it still exists for 断定の助動詞「だ」, which has the 連体形「な」

Anonymous

Now, when you say one or five, that makes me think of 一段動詞 and 五段動詞

Anonymous

Those are so-called because their inflecting forms cover that many rows in the 50-sounds chart

Anonymous

So

Anonymous

書か＋ない
書き＋ます
書く
書け
書こ＋う

Anonymous

These five forms don't match up cleanly with the six categories I listed above

9:25 AM

I see

Anonymous

Both 書か and 書こ are considered 未然形, for example

Anonymous

It's a little bit of a mess

FWIW, I always hope to have an easier time learning Japanese grammar if I can understand how it forms.

Anonymous

Actually, most 五段動詞 were historically 四段動詞.

Anonymous

Remember how I said the negative form that 〜ぬ or 〜ない attaches to is the same form that 〜う attaches to?

9:26 AM

mh

Anonymous

書か＋ぬ　（書かない）
書か＋う　（書こう）

Anonymous

書かう sound changed to 書こう

damn sound changes

Anonymous

That is, kak-au changed its pronunciation to kak-oo

Anonymous

The kana doesn't accurately reflect it because they stuck with う instead of お

9:27 AM

How did ぬ become ない anyways? I thought ない was from ある?

Anonymous

The change from /au/ to /oo/ is a systematic sound change that applied to the whole of the Japanese vocabulary

Anonymous

@Xeo It didn't, I was just putting parentheses in to show the "basic" equivalent, although of course ぬ is still around

@snailboat ah, okay

Anonymous

It isn't known exactly how ない replaced ぬ

Anonymous

But ぬ was largely used in western dialects and ない used in eastern (of course, this is just a generalization)

Anonymous

9:29 AM

Today you are sure to use ぬ yourself in 〜ません :-)

I really wonder how such systematic sound / kana / other changes actually managed to happen - just imagining being told that my language now works differently feels weird.

Anonymous

The sound changes happen naturally in language. They happen in any language.

Anonymous

It happens in speech.

Anonymous

Writing systems almost always lag behind speech, though.

Anonymous

The Japanese stuck to a system of etymological spelling for hundreds of years

Anonymous

9:30 AM

Nearly a thousand

Say, did/do you study linguistics or something? :)

Anonymous

I may have an interest in linguistics

"may"

Anonymous

You know how English spelling is way out of date?

Anonymous

Like, it used to be a pretty good system for representing Middle English pronunciation.

Anonymous

9:30 AM

But we don't say the k or gh in knight anymore, so it just looks silly.

Anonymous

Japanese spelling got kind of like that, too.

heh

Anonymous

Until around a hundred years ago, it was reformed!

Anonymous

Now it's very close to pronunciation, although there are a few things they decided to keep the old way, like the particles は・へ・を and long vowels like in こう or そう, for example

Anonymous

They didn't respell them わ・え・お or こお・そお

9:32 AM

@snailboat It still has おう/おお -> oo and other elongations that sound the same but are written differently :<

Anonymous

But it makes kana pleasant to learn overall :-) It's really a fairly good system

yeah

Anonymous

@Xeo Yes, but be careful because 思う is pronounced オモウ not オモー

German is usually like that too - written as it's spoken.

Anonymous

行こう is イコー
思う　 is オモウ

9:33 AM

@snailboat Ye.

Anonymous

Okay, as long as you've got that down, you're gold :-)

Anonymous

I worry because I learned it wrong when I started out! I thought "ou" was always like "oo"...

Anonymous

I always wonder how many people make the same mistakes I did :-)

The first Japanese from Zero book made that rather clear at the beginning IIRC.

Anonymous

Yay!

9:34 AM

I think, anyways. I've been reading so many references / tutorials that I may be mixing it up.

Anonymous

Yeah, I get like that too.

Worst part about learning Japanese, so far, is remembering the vocabulary :<

Anonymous

Oh, yeah. Japanese has an expansive vocabulary.

The grammar is rather easy to grasp, but all that vocabulary...

Anonymous

I think that must take the biggest chunk of time.

Anonymous

9:35 AM

People always fret about kanji, but there are so many more words than kanji! :-)

Well, a normal Japanese learns all that vocabulary in what, 13 years? :)

Anonymous

It's usually said that a child learns about a thousand words per year until they're 20 or so. (Take that with a grain of salt.)

Anonymous

People keep learning new words, but the rate usually drops off.

Anonymous

So a 13-year-old should know at least 13000 words or so.

@snailboat I'll worry about kanji at a later time, and just pick up some that pop up every so often until then.

Anonymous

9:37 AM

@Xeo Yeah. You know, kanji are easier to learn if you know the words already anyway :-)

Anonymous

The worst is when you're trying to guess which reading you should use, and you have no idea because you don't know the word so you can't tell whether it sounds right or not

mh

Anonymous

But if you're reading and you know the word a lot of the time it just makes sense, like, "Oh! Right, 根拠 must be こんきょ"

Anonymous

You'd never pick the wrong reading because it sounds wrong!

All the vocabulary is really the only thing holding me back from blasting through the last two Japanese from Zero books...

Anonymous

9:39 AM

Are those books good, do you think?

Well, so far I really like them

Anonymous

We don't have them on our little textbooks list

Anonymous

Ah! You left a comment

'cept the choice of (extra) vocabulary at the end of a chapter is a bit weird sometimes.

Anonymous

We should stick that in the list itself :-)

Anonymous

9:42 AM

I don't really know it myself, so I made a tiny description based on your comment. You could expand it if you wanted

Anonymous

I couldn't quite keep up with the chat replies I was getting a few minutes ago, so sorry if I didn't cover everything :-) I just realized I forgot to finish explaining the 四段→五段 thing

Anonymous

But because 書こう was originally 書かう, the inflecting forms of 書く only spanned four kana rows:

Anonymous

書か＋ぬ
書か＋う
書き＋ます
書く
書け

Anonymous

Something like that. There was nothing in the オ段

Anonymous

So they called them 四段動詞.

Anonymous

9:49 AM

The hypothetical form 仮定形 (the form before 〜ば as in 書け＋ば) and imperative form 命令形 (as in 書け！) are generally the same for verbs, but they're still distinguished in Japanese grammar. They used to be different in Old Japanese

They should just move everything over to 一段動詞

Anonymous

Hehe!

And go through with ら抜き

Anonymous

It's ongoing. It's mostly complete for 五段動詞

Anonymous

In a hundred years (or more?) ら抜き may be required :-)

9:51 AM

Yeah, I meant for 一段動詞

Anonymous

In Japanese grammar they don't usually use the term ら抜き to refer to 五段動詞. Instead, they refer to the short potential forms as 可能動詞

@snailboat I think you're missing something in that sentence.

Anonymous

@Xeo What am I missing?

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your reply there. What I meant was 見られる -> 見れる

Anonymous

Yes, in a hundred years (or possibly further in the future) 見られる may be ungrammatical

9:54 AM

Ahh, that's what you meant with "required".

Alright, lunch time. Later o/

Anonymous

See you!

10:10 AM

@snailboat But 証拠 is しょうこ. Grrrr......

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays Yes, and if you know both words, you won't read the kanji wrong :-)

Anonymous

The same way you know laughter and daughter are pronounced differently even though they both have aughter in the spelling, because you happen to know those words in speech

Anonymous

I suppose technically that question about そうでしょう is ambiguous

Anonymous

Since you can say そうでしょう as a complete sentence, or you can say e.g. おいしそうでしょう

Anonymous

I just assumed they meant the former

10:20 AM

You mean as 相づち

Anonymous

Well like, you could say 多分そうでしょう

Anonymous

That's not entirely phatic

Is there a dictionary entry for this? (I remember seeing only the auxiliary そうだ)

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays For the whole sentence そうでしょう?

Yes

I wonder if it's 然う

Anonymous

10:26 AM

こう・そう・ああ・どう formed on the pattern of こう (from kaku かく→kau かう→koʜ こう) by analogy to こ・そ・あ・ど

Anonymous

koʜ・soʜ・aʜ・doʜ

Anonymous

You can write it that way in kanji I think but you generally shouldn't...

@snailboat Oh no I know. I'm just using the kanji to disambiguate is all

こうですね

Anonymous

So こう has う because it was historically lenition of /k/ from かく

Anonymous

But そう・ああ・どう never had う in their pronunciation

10:31 AM

Wow, かく to こう is quite the change

Anonymous

Losing /k/ is actually pretty common in Japanese. Like 赤き→赤い

Anonymous

ありがたく→ありがたう→ありがとう

Anonymous

Loss of /k/ followed by /au/ → /oʜ/

Anonymous

見たくもない→みたうもない→みとうもない→みともない→みっともない

Anonymous

/au/ → /oʜ/ is a regular sound change

10:35 AM

そう it seems

Anonymous

Hehe!

Anonymous

It's funny how そう and so line up

So you're saying the complete-sentence そうです is the same as the one in the fantastic 4: こう・そう・ああ・どう?

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays Yes, just like you can say こうです・ああです・どうです

Anonymous

Except that そうですね can be used with very little meaning

Anonymous

10:43 AM

It can also be used meaningfully

I don't recall having seen ああです before

or こうです

Anonymous

こうです doesn't have a use as an あいづち

Anonymous

You could use こうです cataphorically to refer to something you're about to say, for example

Anonymous

ああです・・・　I don't think people say that very often

I have a bit of 抵抗感 with regards to adverb + です

Anonymous

10:47 AM

It never occurred to me to think that ああです might actually be ungrammatical

Anonymous

You can say そうです・どうです・こうです so why not ああです？ :-)

But then again

> 名詞・副詞，ある種の助詞，および体言に準ずるものに接続する。

大辞林

I guess I don't see such constructs very often

Anonymous

副詞 do a number of things besides just 連用修飾

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays Ever heard someone say something like 「ばっさりだ！」？

Nope

Anonymous

10:50 AM

Oh :-)

);

They never tell me anything

Anonymous

Oh! Um, who doesn't?

They

Anonymous

Darned they!

Anonymous

detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q13127826478

Anonymous

10:52 AM

Hehehe

Anonymous

It is also true that, besides having fewer functions, ああ is also significantly less common than そう

Depends.

When people fall from high places

ああああああああああ

Anonymous

The ratio of そう・こう・どう・ああ before いう is something like 35:20:10:1

Source?

Anonymous

Go search for そういう・こういう・どういう・ああいう etc. in BCCWJ

10:57 AM

だって there are other combinations

Anonymous

I said etc.!

Anonymous

:-)

Anonymous

You can do your own corpus analysis

I only do corpse analysis

Anonymous

The problem is, if you search for ああ directly instead of a construction it's in, you'll get a lot of the other ああs

10:59 AM

Ooh aren't you sneaky

Anonymous

「あいつはいつもああだろう」

I saw the icon pop up right before my eyes

Anonymous

You made me fix what I wrote :-)

Anonymous

Good ol' edit button.

Anonymous

Not actually a button, but it sure is actually edit.

11:00 AM

I knew there was something fishy about it

Anonymous

I pulled the example I just quoted from a subtitle

Anonymous

ああ＋だ appears in constructions like ああだこうだ and like the one above

What does it mean? "That guy is probably always like that"?

Anonymous

That's how I read it, though I don't have any context

Anonymous

It doesn't look like there's too much room for interpretation

Anonymous

11:02 AM

I see a fair amount of ああだこうだ, which is an instance of a more general pattern

Anonymous

Like あいつもこいつも！

Where do you see it?

Anonymous

Which subtitle file, you mean?

@snailboat あいつ and こいつ are common though

@snailboat Oh you just look at a huge bunch of subtitle files? そうか

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays Sure, I'm just pointing out the combination of a pair of こそあど words pattern, in this case あ-series followed by こ-series

Anonymous

11:05 AM

@3to5businessdays Yes, 400MB worth

Anonymous

It's a little corpus, not rigorously compiled :-)

Anonymous

Subtitles from various sites on the net

Anonymous

Another example is the ど-series + あ-series

Anonymous

As in 何だかんだ

Anonymous

Or ど-series + こ-series, どいつもこいつも

Anonymous

11:06 AM

Or どうもこうも

Anonymous

etc.

どこ

Anonymous

That's cheating, it's a different こ :-)

Anonymous

どこもここも！

@snailboat ARE YOU CALLING ME A CHEATER!

Anonymous

11:08 AM

何もかも！

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays No, I'm calling you an イカサマer

Anonymous

イカサマ師！！

@snailboat I KNOW イカ MEANS "SQUID"! HOW DARE YOU!

Anonymous

Japanese love to pair up こそあど words like that.

Anonymous

Hehe!

11:10 AM

Like こそ

Anonymous

Silly!

Anonymous

A couple notes: the distal あ series was formerly か, but the /k/ was lost

Anonymous

So we have 彼女＝彼の女（かのじょ＝あの女)

Anonymous

かの有名な〜〜　＝　あの有名な〜〜

Anonymous

何だかんだ＝何だかだ, with the ん added to make the か balance with the 何

Anonymous

11:11 AM

かなた〜あなた

Anonymous

こいつ←こ＋やつ
そいつ←そ＋やつ
あいつ←か＋やつ

Anonymous

Etc.

Anonymous

And 何 of course does not contain ど but it patterns like a ど word