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3:07 AM
@DariusJahandarie I see
@snailboat Yes
 
Anonymous
Say, that's true enough about there's, but I'm kind of curious because I can't figure out what Darius was replying to
 
Anonymous
Oh :-)
 
Overwrote my message!
 
Anonymous
Oh no!
 
3:08 AM
grrrr.... snailboat!
 
Anonymous
Oh, no!!
 
Anonymous
Do you want me to revert your message
 
Sure
Anyway I think I was trying to find more characters to edit to satisfy the character limit
Ah, here's the edit
 
Anonymous
There's is definitely in alternation with there are in informal spoken English, although I feel weird calling it a contraction of there are since it's actually contracted from there is
 
Yeah
I read from here that it's widely used but strictly not considered correct
 
Anonymous
3:11 AM
It's "not correct" in formal English
 
Anonymous
It's perfectly fine in informal English.
 
Anonymous
So it's fine here.
 
Anonymous
"There're is common in speech" is an interesting claim
 
Anonymous
3:12 AM
It's almost certainly indistinguishable from There are
 
Anonymous
I made you semicolon;;;
 
Anonymous
Oh!!
 
Anonymous
庵点!
 
Anonymous
3:15 AM
I saw that on Wikipedia.
 
What's that?
 
Anonymous
It's 〽!
 
Anonymous
庵点(いおりてん)「〽」は、日本語で、歌のはじめなどに置かれる約物のひとつ。歌記号ともいう。古来能の謡本や連歌などにおいて目印として使われていた。ユニコードではU+303Dのコードを、JIS X 0213では1-3-28のコードを持つ。 形態については、図のように山が二つあるものを庵点、山が一つの「へ」のような形のものを合点(がってん)と呼ぶという説もある。 謡曲本(謡本)においては、能の役柄であるシテ、ワキ、地謡などの役割がかわるところで、語句の頭に使われる。少なくとも明治時代以降の謡曲本では「へ」の字型のものが使われ、2008年現在もそれを踏襲している。「庵点」と「合点」の使い分けがされていたのか、同じものを「合点」「庵点」と呼んでいたのかは、明らかではない。 現代文では、散文中に歌詞を記述する際に、歌詞部分の冒頭に配置して散文との区分とする用法が一般的。ただし、コンピューター上では、庵点が文字コード規格のJIS X 0208に含まれなかったことから、ウェブや電子メールなどにおいて、JIS X 0208に含まれている「♪」が歌記号として用いられることが多い。 庵点は近代になって『「』(始め鉤括弧)の元になったといわれている。 == 符号位置... ==
 
Have you seen it before in the wild?
 
Anonymous
Uh. You know? I don't remember :-)
 
Anonymous
3:17 AM
I feel like I saw it somewhere but I can't remember specifically
 
Maybe a while ago in the chatroom?
 
Anonymous
Maybe.
 
Anonymous
Who knows? :-)
 
Anonymous
istrasci and virmaior claim not to follow the maximum onset principle in pronouncing pineapple
 
Anonymous
That's hard for me to imagine
 
3:22 AM
What's "maximum onset principle"?
 
I certainly follow it.
 
Anonymous
By the way, where's and here's are becoming invariant forms in informal spoken English, too.
 
Uh oh, feels like linguisticky stuff
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays The principle that if a consonant can belong to the syllable following it without breaking any phonotactic rules, it does
 
Anonymous
3:23 AM
In this case
 
Anonymous
Since /n/ is a possible syllable onset
 
Anonymous
We put it with the vowel after it instead of the vowel before it
 
Anonymous
When we divide a word into syllables
 
Anonymous
At least for phonological purposes
 
Anonymous
Terms: phonotactics = the rules for how sounds can be put together in a language. Syllable = divided into three parts, onset/nucleus/coda
 
Anonymous
3:25 AM
The onset consists of any consonants at the beginning of the syllable
 
@3to5businessdays What's your native language, btw? (I assume it's English given that you just said "linguisticky" which doesn't seem like something a non-native speaker would say, but just curious. :-)
 
I think the easiest way I can understand it is if someone has a recording of pineapple following and not following maximum onset principle
 
Anonymous
Oh, that might be me being a bad influence… :-)
 
@DariusJahandarie It's snailboat
 
@snailboat!
 
3:27 AM
It's because snailboat keeps using that word
 
snailboat, snailboat, SNAILBOAT, SNAILBOAT!
 
Does anyone know how to read 走んな?
@DariusJahandarie!!!!!
 
Anonymous
Ahhh!
 
Anonymous
@Anthony はしんな
 
Oh it is.
 
Anonymous
3:29 AM
It's nasal assimilation, which happens when you drop the vowel between /r/ and /n/
 
How did 走る change to get the extra ん?
 
Anonymous
Like, let's take an easy example
 
Oh.
 
Anonymous
That I'm sure you've heard before
 
Anonymous
分からない → 分かんない
 
3:29 AM
I see.
:)
Second question, why does it mean tricky?
 
So it's a contraction of はしるな?
> 車「チャリは車道走んな!」歩行者「チャリは歩道走んな!」
Poor チャリ, where are they supposed to go!?
 
走らな means tricky?
 
@3to5businessdays photo-pot.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/singou2.jpg wherever one of these signs are, presumably.
 
Oh, so they share with the pedestrians?
 
Anonymous
In California, we have bike lanes everywhere.
 
Anonymous
3:38 AM
Cars are allowed to drive in them for the last couple hundred feet before they turn right.
 
Anonymous
And as you might imagine, California drivers stretch that limit a bit. Sometimes a block or two.
 
Or all the time
 
Anonymous
I think riding a bike in California is scary.
 
Anonymous
You can't use the sidewalk, but cars are dangerous.
 
oh, cool, bike talk!
 
3:40 AM
It's not bad in Cambridge.
 
Anonymous
That thing about nasal ũ is interesting. Frellesvig gives the old 助動詞「う」 as nasal ũ
 
My commute to work thankfully has a bike lane which is on the sidewalk as opposed to on the road.
 
Anonymous
Yay!
 
More interruptions, but they are far less life-threatening when they happen.
 
Riding in Tokyo requires 7 eyes and inhuman attention but otherwise is safe and fun.
reminds slalom at times when you need to avoid mamacharis with 3 children riding on the opposite side with umbrella and talking on the phone
 
3:42 AM
@Rilakkuma That's why you should bring your spider with you
 
Hahaha.
 
Phew, thank god I wasn't drinking coffee or anything
 
Is that webpage really not being sarcastic?
"This example from Volendam, The Netherlands, shows that a safe traffic free path can be created"
Oh, it is being sarcastic. Good.
 
Anonymous
The website has a collection of pictures of terrible bike lanes
 
Anonymous
3:44 AM
Like bike lanes to nowhere or bike lanes that make you ride into a post
 
Anonymous
Or through a phone booth
 
recently we've got bike lane in the area nearby. It is much wider than it is necessary for an average tire and is 10 centimeters wide.
 
@Darius they seem to be serious about cycling in Warrington though
Just the "Facility of the Month"
 
Anonymous
0
Q: examples of 'da mon'

IUnknownNan de tabenai no? Datte (kirai/kiraina/kirainanda) mon. which is the correct option? can someone help with the examples of ~mon with V,N and -i adjective too?

 
Anonymous
3:49 AM
Is this person posting homework questions?
 
@snailboat I was thinking the exact same thing.
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays Your native language is snailboat. Mine, too!
 
Yay!
@snailboat Hmmm...
 
Anonymous
Romaji homework.
 
As they say
> When in romaji, do as romajinomoto
 
Anonymous
3:56 AM
It's dangerous out there in the romajigahara!
 
These who lost the battle at Romajigahara were sent to Kanjinoshima in exile.
 
Anonymous
4:31 AM
@3to5businessdays The bare 連用形 can be used similarly to 連用形+テ. 〜に伴い is a more literary alternative to 〜に伴って
 
Anonymous
It's 中止法, one of the uses of the 連用形
 
4:57 AM
@sna In all senses of テ形? I thought 中止形 is a bit more limited?
 
Anonymous
5:12 AM
Well, I said similarly. I didn't say it was exactly the same :-)
 
Anonymous
@DariusJahandarie メンユー has a different consonant than メニュー
 
Anonymous
ん assimilates to the following glide
 
麺夕
 
Anonymous
So メニュー has [n] but メンユー does not …
 
@snailboat Mmm... well, I'm either pronouncing them wrong or describing the difference using nonstandard terminology, then.
You mean how the /n/ in the latter can be nazalized?
(Or whatever the right way to describe that is?)
 
Yes, that.
It has to be like that? I thought pronouncing it as [n] was fine.
 
either I am wrong, or is not it just completely different sound? にゅー and んゆー
reading your discussion I struggle to understand what is the whole difficulty about.
 
When there is a downstep after ン I was convinced could be pronounced as [n].
 
Anonymous
I think they're two different phonemes
 
Anonymous
かんい kaɴi
かに  kani
 
5:27 AM
Certainly.
 
of course.
 
Anonymous
I think the basic version of ん is [ɴ] rather than [n]
 
Anonymous
But when it's not final, it assimilates to the point of articulation of the following consonant
 
I even remember an excercise from Japanese classes:
信愛 - 市内 - 死体
 
Anonymous
So I think メンユー would not sound very much like English menu
 
5:32 AM
@Rilakkuma No しない and したい also? (As in the forms of する)
 
neither of them is very close to the original, but my opinion is towards メンユー as the closest variant to English. However English is not my native language so it can be just originally wrong here.
@DariusJahandarie しない and したい as する forms are simple - teatcher told us the reason of 死体 was there were native Korean speakers who have difficulties with such transitions.
 
If snailboat's suggested pronunciation of メンユー is correct, then it sounds nothing like how I pronounce the English "menu"
 
not sure how exactly, though.
@DariusJahandarie how do you pronounce the English menu?
 
5:47 AM
Dunno how to explain it. I could record something.
Is there a site for that?
 
hmm... perhaps youtube :)
 
Now that would be a pain. :P I mean something to quickly record things. Ah well, I'll just throw something on my own server.
 
indeed different from めんゆー
 
Anonymous
6:12 AM
menu [mɛnjuː]     メンユー [meɰ̃ːjɯː]
 
Anonymous
[ɰ̃ː] is how Vance indicates ん here, a dorso-velar (or high back unrounded) semivowel that's long and nasalized
 
Anonymous
Iwasaki says: "This sound is similar to the uvular nasal ([ɴː]), but unlike the uvular nasal, it allows airflow through the oral cavity as well as the nasal cavity."
 
Anonymous
Vance 2008 p.97, Iwasaki 2013 p.38
 
Anonymous
The first and last vowels are a bit different but they generally map well enough, and the /m/ is about the same in both, so the difference is that middle consonant
 
Anonymous
In one it's [n] and it's short, and in the other it's [ɰ̃ː] and it's long
 
Anonymous
7:43 AM
@Anthony If you can explain why you think it means "tricky" we can respond
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays Yes, but . . .
 
Anonymous
It's technically ambiguous whether it's a contraction of 走りな or 走るな
 
Anonymous
In both cases if you drop the vowel after /r/ (and it can be dropped) then you end up with ん
 
Anonymous
Try saying 走りなさい but when you say り, instead of picking your tongue off the roof of your mouth, just leave it there until the な starts
 
Anonymous
That's what turns it into ん
 
Anonymous
7:45 AM
Now . . .
 
Anonymous
In practice, it's not actually that ambiguous, I think
 
Anonymous
Obviously context will make it clear most of the time, but they're also different in terms of pitch accent
 
Anonymous
Actually, I wonder if you can distinguish all three
 
Anonymous
走んな < 走りな(命令) は↗しんな(↘)
走んな < 走るな(詠嘆) は↗し↘ん↗な(↘)
走んな < 走るな(禁止) は↗し↘んな
 
Anonymous
Someone tell me if I'm on the right track :-)
 
8:04 AM
@snailboat Me? I can't :)
 
actually I thought 禁止 would be は↗し↘ん↗な(↘)
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays Well, sometimes native speakers stop in, and they're usually pretty good sources of information on pitch accent and intonation
 
@snailboat Sure. Just like 分からない can become わかんない, so there's らない
 
or わかんね
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays Well, any vowel can be dropped after /r/
 
8:05 AM
;)
 
Anonymous
@Rilakkuma Well, probably not
 
ているの becomes てんの
 
Anonymous
The length distinction is somewhat neutralized utterance finally but it would probably at least be written as though it's a long vowel, like わかんねぇ or such
 
you are right, I ignored the ぇ at the end.
 
it's like you don't say てめ but てめえ
 
Anonymous
8:07 AM
Oh, wait
 
Anonymous
I misread what you wrote
 
Anonymous
I was thinking of ているのだ → てんだ
 
@snailboat I didn't have a chance to read what you said!
 
Anonymous
In which you have:
1) ているのだ
2) ているんだ
3) て るんだ
4) て んんだ ← This one never occurs
5) て ん だ
 
Anonymous
Because んんだ is automatically reduced to んだ
 
8:09 AM
Ah, I imagine it'd be pretty hard to pronounce too
んんんん
 
I don't even know how to pronounce んん :)
 
Anonymous
People do say んん in other circumstances
 
Anonymous
んーー・・・
 
in which ones?
 
Anonymous
Like if you're thinking
 
Anonymous
8:09 AM
んー
 
Anonymous
んんん・・・
 
sort of うむ〜
 
んんんんんんんん;
 
I'd write it as んー, not んんん
 
Anonymous
People write it both ways
 
8:10 AM
much easier to type with the dash
 
癖ですね。
 
@snailboat Yeah, so up until today, I thought 中止形 can only be used for coordinate clauses
 
むにゅむにゅ。
 
Anonymous
I'd like to type up something that has underlines
 
Anonymous
I'm not sure what the appropriate substitute is here. It's supposed to show the relevant part of a quoted example
 
Anonymous
8:23 AM
I could put spaces in the middle of the quote and use bold
 
Anonymous
Like ぶっ 飛ばす
 
use the unicode combining character
wait that doesn't work everywhere :(
 
Anonymous
Hmm. How well does it work for wide characters?
 
no idea, just throwing an idea
you're the programmer, you tell me
 
Anonymous
8:39 AM
> 連用形の用法(日本文法大辞典より)
>
> (1) 助詞・助動詞をつけずに用いられる。
>
> (イ) それだけで文を中止して、次の文節に続く働きがある。これを中止法という。「花咲き、鳥歌う」「空青く、雲白し」(これは、文語で音便の形をとることもある)「海は静香で、風も暖かい。」これは次の文節にしていろいろの関係でつながり、例えば、「雨に濡れ、風邪をひいた」のように原因・理由を表わすこと もあり(順接)、「百メートル下に転落し、けがもしなかった」のように、逆接としてつながることもある。
>
> (ロ) 次の文節を修飾する働きがある。これを連用法または副詞法という。「急ぎ帰る」ただし、動詞の場合、現代語では「話し続ける」「呼び出す」のように、複合語として扱うことができ、連用形の部分はさらに「かっとばす」「おっかける」のように、促音便化して接頭語的に用いられることも多い。この連用法(副詞法)が見られるのは、主として形容詞・形容動詞についてである。「早く走る」「静かに流れる」「河も見えず音がするだけ。」そのほか文語の形容詞は「風烈しう吹く」のように音便の形をとることもある(このような言い方は方言として残っている)。現代語では、「お寒うございます」「おめでとうぞんじます」など、「ございます」「ぞんじます」に続く場合だけに見られる。
 
I'm on it!
 
8:51 AM
9
Q: Usage of 忘れる, 忘れた, 忘れている, 忘れていた

FlawConsider this sentence: それは三十年前のことだから、もう[fill in the blank]。 The answer given by the workbook is 忘れた. Choices are: 忘れる (forget) 忘れた (forgot) 忘れている (continued state of forgetting) 忘れていた (had forgotten, currently may or may not be forgotten) My thought process: Choice 1 is ruled out bec...

Gives me headaches
 
not good question for a workbook, because its answer depends on the context.
 
For what it's worth, in terms of Google hits, もう忘れてる > もう忘れてた > もう忘れた
 
I don't think googles hits would make any sense this time.
 
Anonymous
忘れる is a 瞬間動詞
 
Anonymous
Google doesn't tell you result counts
 
8:54 AM
all words are legit (except the first one), the answer depends on the context.
 
Anonymous
Unless all of the results are on screen, you don't know how many you got
 
Anonymous
Why don't you think the first one is possible?
 
@snailboat Plus Google limits results to first 1000 + other weird stuff
 
well, 忘れている is not good too
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays Yes, 1000 with a fair amount of culling
 
8:55 AM
I actually thought 忘れている is fine
 
何とか30年前の事だから、もう忘れる。
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays It is, it's 結果残存
 
does it make much sense to you?
もう忘れる itself does not make much sense to me.
 
Anonymous
You need to imagine a suitable context
 
@snailboat Can it be "have forgotten"?
 
8:56 AM
@snailboat sorry, can't this time. :) by adding additional words I would, but this phrase alone is not legit.
for example : もう忘れる事にした。
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays Yes, 〜ている with a 瞬間動詞 typically has a 結果残存 interpretation, meaning there was a change of state at an instant in the past (the forgetting) and the subject is now in the resulting state (which has present relevance, as in the English perfect construction with have + past participle)
 
Anonymous
@Rilakkuma Have you read the answer?
 
@snailboat not yet.
 
Anonymous
It is written by a native speaker and a linguist
 
user458?
 
8:58 AM
sawa
didn't know he's a linguist though
 
僕はこれまで彼をある出来事のために恨んできた。でも、それは三十年前のことだから、もう忘れる。 - this sounds good, very close to [もう忘れる事にした/する] anyways.
then all answers are legit...
 
wish he has included translations - 日本語がまだ下手です
 
Anonymous
Is there anything you find difficult in the quotes?
 
hmm... then it was sawa who was so offended by my answer once
 
@Rilakkuma eh?
 
9:03 AM
well, not sure if sawa, there was a person who removed the account shortly after who wrote long comment on my answer claiming it is offensive because I wrote "this is simple ... blablabla".
 
難しい計算 < complex calculations? math?
 
yes... 複雑な計算 works too.
...and the claim was my answer is very bad pedagogically because I tell something is simple when it is not. So many people, so many sorts of baguettes.
 
Anonymous
Downvoted for a mix of two reasons; one is that I didn't feel the examples made it clearer about how to make future judgments about which kanji I might use in new circumstances (as the other answer did); the other reason is that prefacing an answer with "this is very simple" comes off as patronizing to me, and I don't care for patronizing tones at all, especially when they preface mediocre pedagogy. — ghorahn Jul 23 at 20:18
 
Anonymous
This person does not appear to have removed their account
 
hmm... Well, memory plays strange tricks.
 
Anonymous
9:10 AM
That is true
 
Sorry, being mistaken then.
 
Anonymous
It can be disconcerting sometimes
 
So, 観る is used when there's some enjoyment in seeing something
 
Anonymous
That's interesting.
 
Anonymous
I've never conceptualized it that way, myself
 
Anonymous
9:19 AM
2
A: Difference between 見る and 観る?

RilakkumaThis is very simple. 観る means "to watch" - TV, theatre, whatever else action. 見る means "to see" - to see the sea, for example.

 
Anonymous
This answer seems right to me
 
Anonymous
見る and 観る differ in volition
 
Anonymous
Just like the English verbs 'see' and 'watch'
 
Anonymous
Or the English verbs 'hear' and 'listen'
 
Anonymous
Although 見る is more general and can always be used in place of 観る
 
9:20 AM
sure!
 
Anonymous
Likewise, English see is more general than watch
 
Anonymous
If you're watching something, you're also seeing it.
 
Anonymous
So to me at least it seems like a pretty good correspondence
 
Anonymous
I guess I should leave a comment
 
Thank you!
 
Anonymous
9:25 AM
Hmm, though look is the most basic volitional counterpart of see
 
Anonymous
Well, I upvoted :-)
 
Anonymous
But watch seems like a better match for 観る
 
Normally I should mention things like 視る too
 
Anonymous
You could, although I don't think you have to answer questions that people didn't ask
 
This is also right.
adding too much info adds clutter which is not desired.
 
Anonymous
9:32 AM
> 見る 25862
> 観る 616
> 診る 94
> 視る 60
> 看る 39
> 覧る 1
 
Anonymous
Results from BCCWJ
 
Anonymous
So, of 見る・観る・視る you've covered 99% of uses already
 
Anonymous
Without explicitly mentioning the last
 
should be enough :)
thank you for detailed info!
have to go now...
to teach Latvian to Japanese people :)
 
Anonymous
Enjoy! :-)
 
9:34 AM
See you later!
 
9:52 AM
@snailboat was thinking about this
I'm thinking: 見る can be 瞬間 or 継続動詞 whereas 観る is 継続動詞?
I'm currently thinking in terms of the four types proposed by 金田一
I wonder if the classification is still used or it's superseded by something else
 
Anonymous
Some modern linguists have removed 金田一's fourth category
 
Anonymous
There have actually been a lot of categorizations
 
Anonymous
But you can distinguish them generally by features:
 
Anonymous
1. Is it stative?
 
Anonymous
2. Is it durative? (Does it have duration, or does it take place in a single point in time?)
 
Anonymous
9:56 AM
3. Is it telic? (Does it have a well-defined endpoint, or does it just sort of continue on?)
 
Anonymous
And
 
Anonymous
Some add an extra "semelfactive" category for verbs that are generally iterative
 
Not sure if 観る is telic or atelic... I think it might depend on what you're watching...
 
Anonymous
Like "She knocked at the door." She probably knocked several times, each one being instantaneous
 
Anonymous
Right, telicity is a property of predicates
 
Anonymous
9:58 AM
Just like in English.
 
like "run" vs "run a mile"
 
Anonymous
> She ate apples for ten minutes.      (-telic, -telic)
 
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