Japanese Language

12:12 AM

to put the counting into some sort of system I would say there are 2.5 ways to count in Japanese:
"Japanese" count.
"Chinese" count.
"Chinese" count with counters - which amounts 90% of the whole system.

I did not mention nuances such as numbers used in finances though.

Darius Jahandarie

Wow, the starred list is really not in good shape tonight.

Anonymous

Hehe, oh no!

Anonymous

@Rilakkuma That's incomplete

Rilakkuma

of course it is

but that's enough to know for a beginner

counters alone are overhelming. But lucky this is not Chinese where counters seem to be less systematic.

Anonymous

Sure, but I wouldn't personally want to give the impression that native numerals aren't used with counters

Rilakkuma

12:19 AM

hmm... you are right. However rare this is the case too.

Anonymous

Well, it's not rare …

Rilakkuma

ok, we are not here to argue. :)

Darius Jahandarie

@snailboat Thanks to your conventions, I thought you were talking about -rare-!

Anonymous

@DariusJahandarie Hehehe!

Anonymous

@Rilakkuma Ah, I don't mean to argue, I just felt like I should point it out since it's part of everyday language in Japanese

Anonymous

12:22 AM

And I thought that would be useful :-)

Anonymous

I'll go back to reading my new book!

Anonymous

I'm excited!

Rilakkuma

to be honest to me japanese count + counters seem way more naturally understandable without getting into counters concept :)

Darius Jahandarie

Let me know if it says anything cool. When I skimmed to the ている section (or was it something else?) the last time you mentioned it I wasn't terribly impressed.

Rilakkuma

probably that's why I did not even think about it when mentioning counting systems.

@snailboat what book is it?

Darius Jahandarie

12:24 AM

Maybe it was the は・が bit.

Man nothing annoys me more than the "topic marker" explanation of は.

You know, the 私はウナギです。 one.

That has nothing to do with は, and everything to do with the copula.

Rilakkuma

拙者、鰻で御座る。

I usually get annoyed by English interpretations of Japanese plant or food names.

such as 杉 - Japanese Cedar

or 酒 - Japanese Spirits

Darius Jahandarie

Do you prefer "cryptomeria japonica"? :P

Rilakkuma

yes!!

because it is not cedar :( it is cypress!!

Darius Jahandarie

I honestly don't know anything about plants. In Japanese, English, or at all.

Rilakkuma

but ok, many cypresses are called cedars

so that's fine but still annoying

Darius Jahandarie

12:31 AM

Gotta run, bbl.

Rilakkuma

see you

Rilakkuma

12:49 AM

Looked through wiki about cedars and other things and found out the current Japanese imperial crest uses Koyamaki tree - I always thought this is a pine.

Anonymous

1:13 AM

I like reading different explanations of は and が :-) I think sometimes different, even incompatible explanations can give insights into different uses

Anonymous

@Rilakkuma Iwasaki's 2013 Japanese: Revised Edition

Anonymous

It's a book about all sorts of facets of the Japanese language from a linguistics perspective

Anonymous

1:31 AM

Published in 2013, it includes an rather large number of citations / footnotes and references to the latest research on various topics

Anonymous

It is a nice, up-to-date general reference if you care about that sort of thing :-)

Rilakkuma

sorry, was off with wowrk :)

sounds interesting

Anonymous

2:05 AM

@DariusJahandarie This book definitely has stuff I think is interesting! :-)

Anonymous

Anonymous

I haven't really read about accent reduction before

Rilakkuma

2:24 AM

good book @snailboat!

Anonymous

It's kind of neat :-) I'm surprised it has as many typos as it does (which is not too many, but enough to be noticeable)

Anonymous

It doesn't go into detail on every topic. It's sort of an overview with pointers for further reading

Rilakkuma

I like how it wraps a story with the science

completely unrelated, but - Japan is awesome place but one thing bothers me a lot.

There are too much allergens around. I never experienced any allergy in North Europe and constantly being irritated here. Gets easier in the winter and summer only.

Anonymous

I grew up in Illinois

Anonymous

I'm allergic to Illinois!

Rilakkuma

2:35 AM

lol

Anonymous

I moved away, then I visited home in 2003

Anonymous

I was amazed by how much I couldn't breathe!

Rilakkuma

what's so bad about Illinois? Do you mean the real allegy or the state of mind?

Anonymous

Yes, real allergies. Breathing :-)

Anonymous

I'm allergic to the air there!

Rilakkuma

2:36 AM

Interesting!

Anonymous

I guess it must be all the plants.

Rilakkuma

Have to admit I have very primitive image of Illinois. Somewhat squarish state divided in half where one half is desert and other half is lake with skyscrapers at the border.

A little exaggerated but somewhere around those lines.

never been there, that's why

Aerovistae

snailboattttt

what does this say? imgur.com/FirbtP3

next to Tab

Anonymous

Desert, eh? :-)

Anonymous

It says わたしはジヨンん。　　　。[全]　Tabキーで選択

Aerovistae

2:39 AM

:)

yes i wrote the simple sentence

and then my IME has that bit there

Anonymous

You want the little ヨ that Rilakkuma was explaining about

Aerovistae

i know the first kanji is the name for the period

but what does it say after "Tab"?

and what do you mean i want the little yo?

Anonymous

Actually, the first kanji isn't the name for period

Aerovistae

OH

i understand, nevermind, regarding yo

Anonymous

It's 全 which in this context probably means 全角 as in "full-width [text]"

Rilakkuma

2:40 AM

@snailboat pretty much like stereotypical image of Europe seen by (choose one - Americans/Asians/Australians) with Eiffel tower in the middle. :) what plants are there which can be allergic?

Aerovistae

ah okay

that also makes sense

Anonymous

@Rilakkuma I have no idea. All of them? :-)

Anonymous

I'm not an Illinois plant expert.

Anonymous

It's a pretty green place, though.

Anonymous

"Choose with the tab key"

Anonymous

2:42 AM

選択 is "choose" (technically it's a noun but it's used here like a verb, like する is omitted) and で is the instrumental "by [means of]"

Anonymous

キー is "key"

Rilakkuma

most people in Japan are allergic to 杉 pollen which starts to fly in the end of January and gets to its peak in April/May

Aerovistae

i do not know the -- character

that's not a kana

Anonymous

Or "select using the tab key" or however you want to phrase it

Anonymous

ー is the long vowel marker

Rilakkuma

2:42 AM

however I am not... :/ but being allergic to the stuff of industrial origin, including the green soap used in most office buildings around Japan

Aerovistae

is it a mark to stretch out a syllable?

Anonymous

It is mostly used with katakana. Type it with a single dash -

Aerovistae

ah, as i thought, yes

ー

Anonymous

Type ro-maji to get ローマ字

Aerovistae

bingo!

Anonymous

2:43 AM

It is pronounced like ろおまじ

Aerovistae

right right yes

Anonymous

For whatever reason ー is usually only used with katakana

Anonymous

Mostly for foreign words.

Rilakkuma

らーめん

Anonymous

Yes!

Aerovistae

2:45 AM

um

Anonymous

Mostly :-)

Rilakkuma

but it is foreign word too. :D

Aerovistae

ra...men?!

ramen!

Anonymous

Yay!

Rilakkuma

rāmen

Aerovistae

2:45 AM

でぃしゅす

okay i tried sounding out "delicious" in kana and that's what we got.

Rilakkuma

デリシャス

there's popular song on youtube "nyan nyan nyan nyan ni hao nyan"

which includes the Japanese way to pronounce this word.

ni hao is not Japanese but who cares :)

Aerovistae

i care. i care.

also i have to go get food

necesito sustenance

Rilakkuma

ok, just remember "ni hao" is Chinese! :)

Aerovistae

j'ai faim

i know! i studied mandarin too.

Rilakkuma

great then!

Aerovistae

2:48 AM

i keep going back and forth between mandarin/japanese...i like them both a lot.

but only so much time...

Rilakkuma

Just like me between Tiramisu and Pizza. Love them both but can't combine.

Aerovistae

LOL

Rilakkuma

:D

Aerovistae

anyway, ttyl! question whose answer i will read later-- what is a rilakkuma??

Anonymous

A portmanteau of リラックス and くま

Anonymous

2:49 AM

It is the name of a character like たれぱんだ

Rilakkuma

a bear who likes to sleep, eat... and nothing much more.

there's whole group of them. Kiiroitori is friend of Rilakkuma and is obsessed with cleaniness and speaks only Katakana

Korilakkuma (Ko+Rilakkuma - little or child rilakkuma) - another Rilakkuma who likes to eat and sleep but also to make fun of Kiiroitori

Korilakkuma does not talk, mostly just repeats what other's say

Anonymous

Is there a ゴリラックマ？ :-)

Rilakkuma

I hope not!

:D

ゴジラックマ

3 to 5 business days

3:37 AM

@snailboat I know from the title not to click on it!

Hmmm, why did 非回答者 delete his answer from my question?

@非回答者?

Anonymous

Is there a website like this one I can link someone to except with readings in kana instead of romaji? Hehe trussel.com/jcount.htm

Rilakkuma

3:52 AM

Interesting how many counters there are for temples

3 to 5 business days

@sna use jQuery

whoa 山 for piles of fruits

Rilakkuma

this makes perfect sense

however 山 for temples is although not uncommon is quite 不思議

you often see in fruit shops, especially old-fashioned ones fruits in piles and price for 1山

3 to 5 business days

mountain-ful of temples?

Rilakkuma

:)

Anonymous

4:11 AM

Most of those counters are uncommon

Anonymous

Downing gives lists, 26 counters she calls the "core inventory" used by all speakers and 47 she calls the "expanded inventory"

Anonymous

She ranks counters a few different ways to come up with lists of the ones you need to know / people actually use / people claim to use

Anonymous

And maybe 85-90% of them are hardly used at all

3 to 5 business days

hmm imabi changed domain name

oh no

it's just a mirror

rookie mistake

jkerian

5:13 AM

@snailboat It's honestly pretty similar to the collective nouns for animals in English. Everyone knows and mostly correctly uses: herd, flock, head, pack, etc. Then there's a pile that people don't use, but would recognize as correct: pride of lions, murder of crows, parliament of owls. Then a bunch that no one cares if they don't use. "A congregation of alligators... really?" "A bevy of quail... okay... if you say so"

Out of curiosity, were you aware it's a "rout" of snails?

Anonymous

Hehe, it's been hundreds of years since those were in fashion :-)

Anonymous

At the time, I think people just made them up, whatever sounded good

Anonymous

Most were rightly forgotten

jkerian

Honestly, I think counters are mostly the same

herd/flock/pack/den/whatever are very similar to -mai, -hon, -ko, -nin, etc... common and useful

There's a much larger group "in the middle" of uncommon but still "correct" counters, than animal collectives. But it's a similar sort of thing.

err... wut... "291. 目 moku ichi items, crosses of a go board"

not... quite...

Anonymous

I actually use 数え方の辞典 myself

Anonymous

5:21 AM

I was looking for an online resource to link to

jkerian

moku are the open spaces that are surrounded... "points of territory" might be a better way of saying that

Anonymous

I haven't played

Anonymous

My friend's been trying to get me to, but I figure I have enough obsessions for the moment :-)

Rilakkuma

some counters on the page are taken by the neck, such as ステージ

3 to 5 business days

6:01 AM

@snailboat I think benricho's ものの数え方 is nice for looking up which counters to use. But it doesn't have that "hito"/"ichi" mention

That said, I don't really use counter dictionaries

Super random, but I just learned why spices (or spice trade) is so frequently mentioned in history

reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1zw63t/…

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays The ひと／いち thing isn't always clear cut anyway

Anonymous

I think even for prototypical examples like 箱 where ひと・・・ is expected there's some variation

3 to 5 business days

6:18 AM

sometimes I wish people add furigana on top of numbers

(where furigana is used)

the 読み方 of the number-counter combination can be trickier than the other words with furigana

Rilakkuma

/humour on/ 893 (やくざ) ? /humour off/

@3to5businessdays I think they are pretty much systematic once you get how they are formed. I see very rare exceptions from this rule.

sometimes tricky though and this is where you need dictionary

3 to 5 business days

@Rilakkuma so are most of the words that have furigana

(of course, excluding cases where furigana is used creatively)

@Rilakkuma A specialized dictionary/list, even

Because regular dictionary don't specify how numbers' 読み方 changes with counters

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays Yeah! That would be very helpful for learners

Anonymous

Especially because many learners have a tendency to read numbers in their native languages

Anonymous

6:43 AM

Here's another one from Martin: "adverbs of dentential relation"

Anonymous

Sounds like some crazy new word!

Anonymous

Wouldn't put it past Martin to come up with dentential relations

Anonymous

But no, it's a typo for sentential :-)

Choko

7:57 AM

「いい加減にしろ」と「いい加減にしなさい」は、英語にしたら訳が違う？

Rilakkuma

very hard to give good translation without using f* word

Anonymous

Whaa

Rilakkuma

because apparently although uncensored it would give the best impression of expression

this was half serious though

Choko

で、この回答では・・・japanese.stackexchange.com/a/18858/1016

Rilakkuma

sorry I have little ideas how to beautifully translate the full spectrum of difference between しろ and しなさい :)

Anonymous

8:00 AM

Lessee

Anonymous

@Choko I don't really know how to characterize the difference between those English phrases...

Choko

1) と2) のどっちだと言ってるんだろう？

Rilakkuma

"いい加減にしなさい Shape up!; act properly!" ...

Anonymous

I think there are more uses of いい加減

Rilakkuma

or perhaps my English is not good enough so that I do not see much of difference between "Act properly!" order and "Cut it out!"

Anonymous

8:02 AM

Hmm . . .

Anonymous

@Rilakkuma I don't think the phrases are really precise translations

Rilakkuma

definitely

Choko

act properly! ちゅうたら、「ちゃんとしなさい！」みたいな

Rilakkuma

ちゃんとしろ would be more useful though

Anonymous

I don't really know how to answer the OP's question

Anonymous

8:04 AM

いい加減 has meanings that are counterintuitive to me as a learner

Anonymous

So I'm not sure how to best explain them

Choko

コンテクストがほしいかもね

Anonymous

Because you have いい加減な態度

Anonymous

And いい加減にしなさい

Choko

せりふみたいです

Rilakkuma

8:06 AM

o, @Choko, お久しぶり by the way

Choko

ドラマの

dic.pixiv.net/a/…

@Rilakkuma おひさ

Anonymous

Oh yeah!

Anonymous

I forgot about the OP's actual example :-)

Anonymous

Oh, that reminds me of something

Anonymous

detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1080343805

Choko

8:09 AM

おおおお！

ｗｗｗ

paradisearmy.com/doujin/pasok_bakanano_shinuno.htmこんなのもある

ぜんぜん知りませんでした

Anonymous

That Steins;Gate anime had a bunch of references to 2ch things, but I don't know 2ch slang

Anonymous

I know 鯖 for サーバ

Anonymous

鯖ダウン

Anonymous

One of the characters says 乙 a lot

Anonymous

Which I guess is slang from おつかれ

Anonymous

8:14 AM

But it didn't always make sense to me

Anonymous

→ ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Anonymous

They said that one too

Choko

乙はお疲れだったのか・・

Anonymous

@Choko I was reading here nanapi.jp/27441

Choko

「ガッ」！？なんだそれは

Anonymous

8:16 AM

@Choko Hehe, I have nooo clue :-)

Choko

う～ん、「乙」は便利そうだわ

私が知ってるのは。。。

ノシ

orz

つべります？

つべる

Anonymous

Hehe, after the 「ねるぽ」「ガッ」 bit on the cartoon, one of the characters says 「意味が分かる自分が憎い」

Choko

にちゃんねらーなんだわ、その人

Anonymous

@Choko I learned OTL recently!

Choko

weblioのポップアップ辞書がOTLはover the lineだっていってます

Anonymous

8:29 AM

orz OTL orz OTL

Choko

へ

Anonymous

The one who's bowing in OTL has a bigger head

Choko

おおｗｗ

Anonymous

I didn't know つべる！

Anonymous

（よう）つべ＋る？

Choko

8:30 AM

は～い

Anonymous

I was looking it up

Choko

うｐ　とか

おｋ　とか

「うぴー」「おけー」って読んでしまう

Anonymous

Hehe I've typed おk on accident before :-)

Anonymous

I thought うp was "up" like アップ

Choko

そうそう

Anonymous

8:34 AM

Ohh

Anonymous

So do people say うぴー meaning アップ? :-)

Anonymous

どwn

Choko

実際「うぴー」って読むかどうか知らないけどね～

ふぁせぼおｋ

とぃってｒ

Rilakkuma

sounds like 2ch語

Choko

ｓたｃけｘちゃんげ

Anonymous

8:36 AM

sたcけxちゃんげ・・・

Choko

ぁんぐあげ

ｓないｌぼあｔ

Anonymous

Hee

Rilakkuma

sたcけxちゃんげ...

Anonymous

And what we say three times is true!

Rilakkuma

ひfらw！

Anonymous

8:39 AM

hifraw…?

Rilakkuma

Hi @Flaw!

:)

Anonymous

Oh! Flaw is here! :-)

Rilakkuma

whoneedsspacesanyway!

Choko

ｆぁｗ

Flaw

Hi!

Anonymous

8:40 AM

I get ぁ if I type la

Flaw

The notification made me jump

Anonymous

You must be on a mac, Rilakkuma!

Anonymous

Macs turn la into ら but other computers turn la into ぁ

Rilakkuma

yes, just thought about the same

Flaw

How were you typing those weird letters with weird symbols trailing above and below them?

Rilakkuma

8:41 AM

on mac ぁ is xa

Anonymous

You can get ぁ with xa on any computer

Rilakkuma

Right.

@Flaw typing English using Japanese romaji layout

Choko

いぇｓ

Rilakkuma

lol

Anonymous

@Flaw Search for "zalgo"

Anonymous

8:43 AM

marlborotech.com/Zalgo.html

3 to 5 business days

9:47 AM

いいかげんなこと。でたらめなこと

that means "bullshit"

p/s: It's the definition 2 of よた in 大辞泉

I'm more used to the "not overdoing it" sense of いい加減

Flaw

12:30 PM

Well I give up understanding my code (for homework). I fiddled around until it worked but I don't really understand why.

which kind of makes me raise epistemological questions about stuff

if it is true that I actually did the homework or not.

Choko

4:45 PM

品、は読める

森、も

晶、姦、

あとは無理

Rilakkuma

omg @Choko

姦も読める

やばい

特にあの龍龍龍

Anonymous

5:12 PM

@Choko There are also a few that contain triples like 協 or 囁!

Anonymous

I know 犇めく

Anonymous

@Flaw Hehe!

Rilakkuma

Today I visited Kita-ku of Tokyo. Very 渋い place.

Anonymous

Oh, and 蟲

Rilakkuma

what does it mean?

my dictionary does not know it

Anonymous

5:30 PM

蟲（むし） is a 旧字体 for 虫

Rilakkuma

Thank you.

Anonymous

It's helpful to know certain 旧字体 I think

Anonymous

Probably not all of them :-)

3 to 5 business days

5:55 PM

TIL 中立形 is another name for 連用形

I wonder how often it is used relative to 連用形

Anonymous

6:29 PM

Good question! You could ask about it on the site

Darius Jahandarie

@3to5businessdays FWIW, "there's" is fine as a contraction for "there are".

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays I don't know where the term 中立形 comes from, myself. Most Japanese sources use the term 連用形, as in 学校文法, except for in 日本語教育 (Japanese as a Foreign Language) where other (possibly unpalatable) terms are often used such as Ｖマス

Anonymous

But 中立形 does appear to make some sense on first glance

Anonymous

Maybe it's another 日本語教育 term

Darius Jahandarie

中立形... not sure I understand how that makes sense. 中立 as in "neutral"?

Or are you thinking like, "stands in the middle" or something like that

Anonymous

6:50 PM

@DariusJahandarie Well, it's a non-finite form.

Anonymous

A finite form is finite because it's somehow "limited" to a particular tense, number, or something else (depending on the language and the form in question)

Anonymous

A non-finite form could be called "neutral" with respect to tense, mood, etc

Darius Jahandarie

Ah, so neutral in the sense that it doesn't have any of those.

Anonymous

Looks like the term comes from 三上's 1963 『日本語の構文』

Anonymous

I don't have that book

Anonymous

6:55 PM

It seems that Mikami proposed new, more descriptive names for the 活用形

Anonymous

amazon.co.jp/…

Anonymous

@3to5businessdays I'm guessing you ran across it reading 庭三郎's page?

Anonymous

He does cite 三上 in his bibliography, so I'm guessing that's where he got it from

Anonymous

But I think most people have stuck with the more traditional name 連用形

Anonymous

Although it looks like it expresses a slightly different concept

Anonymous

7:07 PM

Of course the 連用形 is given that name because it is the form that links (連なる) to a following 用言

Darius Jahandarie

9:11 PM

Hmm, how is /sutu/ supposed to be pronounced when there isn't a downstep between them?

ナイスツッコミ

In careful pronunciation I just annunciation them, but if talk normally at all they get completely slurred together... not sure if that's actually correct.

Anonymous

10:03 PM

That could make an interesting question for the site :-)

Darius Jahandarie

It could. I need to think of more examples.

Anonymous

Asking a little question is okay! :-)

Anonymous

High vowel deletion can occur at word boundaries and /t/ and /s/ are both voiceless, but I'm not sure about any consonant assimilation

Anonymous

10:46 PM

Darius Jahandarie

11:16 PM

I'm... not sure if I believe that?

Oh, nevermind, I see what it's saying.

I think there is still the "experiential" reading for both of them.

Interesting pair of sentences though. It works like this in English also:
○ "My younger brother has his mustache shaved today."
✗ "My younger brother has his Dad's mustache shaved today."

(Tried to eliminate some of the other meanings by adding "today", but I don't think it's possible to eliminate *all* of them...)

Because you're talking about the state of the younger brother, and while his mustache being shaved or not is part of his state, his Dad's mustache being shaved is not part of his state.

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