V'dibarta Bam - 2013-03-12

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Al Ummat مجاهد

12:00 AM

not only moderators, but also owners of this room can pin things

not sure if you guys can see it on your right?

@AlUmmatمجاهد Right, but here the room owners are always the mods.

...so I guess "mod starring" could be used...

Al Ummat مجاهد

@HodofHod I guess it can :)

I think I understand this question as trying to apply an entirely foreign concept to Judaism, and therefore so totally outside the scope of the site as to be not a real question. Am I alone on this?

0

Q: the symbol of transformation in Judaism

Would you please telling me about the symbol of transformation in Judaism? By transformation, I meant the upgrade from something earthy, lower in nature to higher, or even sacred entities. Here are similar examples in the Eastern tradition: a carp can become a dragon when it has the courage to ...

symbols-symbology

@SethJ I do agree.

But I think phrasing it as "Is there a symbol..." would be in scope; though the answer would be a boring "no", as far as I know.

I don't think so. It's just such a foreign idea that it can't even apply, as I read it.

I'd go so far as to move for deletion.

12:14 AM

@SethJ Think: "Does Judaism have the concept of multiple G-ds? versus "What are the different G-ds in Judaism?"

I hear ya, but this is so foreign as to not even apply. IMO, obviously.

@SethJ So is multiple G-ds, no? Doesn't get much more foreign than that, I would think. It's just that we're more used to that idea/question than the "symbol of transformation".

I can't even downvote it, because it's not really a bad question. It just doesn't make sense within the spectrum of Judaism that I know.

multiple gods is at least on the spectrum of what judaism talks about and deals with. in fact, it is a huge part of Judaism, in terms of what we absolutely reject.

@SethJ Exactly, so it's more common, but I'm not convinced that it makes it more of a valid question.

2 hours later…

2:41 AM

@ShmuelBrin with one 'r', it looks like it ought to have a long 'a', which makes me assume you're talking about something akin to youtube.com/watch?v=AiAXgDfKwOU#t=32s

3:37 AM

@IsaacMoses Whaaaa.......?

This looks delicious! mako.co.il/news-money/consumer/Article-d38b7aca1745d31004.htm

3:52 AM

@DoubleAA Can I get that with a scoop of either horseradish or lettuce ice cream?

@IsaacMoses Blech

I think you got your ikar and tafel mixed up.

@DoubleAA Sorry. Can I get a tiny bit of that ice cream to come into contact with, but then get shaken off of, a horseradish popsicle the size of a Brobdignagian olive?

2

@IsaacMoses That's more like it!

Also, great way of describing modern shiurim.

@DhoweedYaAgov LOL while it lasted

:PPPP

i removed it u want it back up?

4:04 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov It was probably a good idea to take it down.

yea

i was having a discussion with another yidden in a different irc, and they dont liek called me dhoweedh they call me dovid or duvid, so i said my jimmies get really rustled when people call me that irl

and then i posted

and it was a whole meme spam out jimmies being russtled lol

also i wanted to know if there are other jewish ircs out there? its really hard finding yidden online

4:37 AM

@realIsaacMoses we're cool?

the IP was from Finland. Got any enemies there?

@DoubleAA No more violation -> no more problem. Thanks

@DoubleAA How can you tell me that? While we're at it, was it a tor node?

@IsaacMoses 1) I probably can't but I figure no one cares. 2) תור נוד? A dove water-pouch?

@DoubleAA torproject.org en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_%28anonymity_network%29

@IsaacMoses I figured it was some computing term. Na no idea. And the record has been destroyed so I can't check anymore.

@DoubleAA We once had a serial spammer who came in each day with a new user, from a new IP address. The domain names associated with the IP addresses mostly clearly identified them as tor exit nodes.

(e.g. "torexitnodealpha.1337ISP.co.fi")

It's something to notice when you're dealing with problem users. An indication that the user is willing to go the extra mile to be extra anonymous, and a reason not to trust the nationality or inconsistency of their IP addresses.

@Cosbynator, Hi

@DoubleAA, you browsing with Chrome?

4:51 AM

@IsaacMoses at the moment yes

Btw, has anyone heard of that claim that you can make stuff up in someone's name so people will accept it? Sounds like out and out doveir sh'karim to me.

@Fred Sounds like the kind of stuff some people in the "dissembling in the promotion of Truth is no vice" camp would rationalize

@Fred It sounds familiar enough that I'm not ruling it out yet. I'm feeling a gemara in Bava Batra, but have no idea why.

@IsaacMoses I doubt it's so much a camp as elements within many, often opposing camps.

I might be completely misremembering.

4:55 AM

6

Q: Sefer Besamim Rosh

Who wrote the Sefer Besamim Rosh?

history jewish-books

@DoubleAA Could be, but I assume there's some context there. In a vacuum I don't see how it could possibly be acceptable.

@IsaacMoses hebrewbooks.org/49587

@DoubleAA "Forged Jerusalem Talmud"? What is that?

@IsaacMoses Doesn't make it muttar by any means.

@IsaacMoses You've never heard of it? There's two more volumes

4:57 AM

@IsaacMoses On Kodshim.

Some guy forged the entire thing and a extensive commentary.

@fred i remember a chassidishe maisah i think by the chatham sofer, someone made a claim in his name which was a big bogus claim, and when chatham sofer was notified, he said if you want people to listen to you quote your idea from a famous person, but a famous person shouldnt quote from an am ho'orasS

@IsaacMoses Fooled some gedolim at first.

@Fred Definitely not claiming that it does.

something like that, unless i just did what the story i said told me not to do

4:58 AM

Everyone believed him. "They say" the Chofetz Chayim wore Rabbeinu Tam tefillin because of it, but "they also say" that's apocryphal.

@DoubleAA Not everyone. At least a couple of gedolim figured it out immediately.

They also say the Rugatchover knew it was fake after reading it because in every other masechet in bavli and yerushalmi at least one name of an amora appears that appears no where else.

@Fred Well, a very significant number didn't.

@DoubleAA Yes. IIRC, the Gerrer Rebbe figured it out right away, too.

why is there always ashkenazim doing weird things to texts but not so much sepharadim?

@Fred I don't know how well any of this is documented though. Probably some rejected it, some were suspicious and some believed it, and each group afterward told stories about how their leader always knew.

5:01 AM

@DoubleAA I think Prof. Leiman has an article on this.

@Fred Ya? I'll have to check that out.

@DhoweedYaAgov Why are there few sefardi printings of classical text?

If anything, there should be more (and more reliable) since they don't need to censor.

@ShmuelBrin what are classical texts? chassidishe tails?

@DhoweedYaAgov Gemaras

Guys, please no family feud

2

5:06 AM

@ShmuelBrin they had an enormous library in spain which was transferred to toledo, the last person who saw it and used it was avarohom abulafiyya, after that i think it was destroyed

it was seforim and manuscripts from the times of jaonim and i think even before

@DhoweedYaAgov I'm referring to 1600-1900s

@DhoweedYaAgov Not so much sephardim? Don't you hold that the ultimite forger was moses deleon of spain?

hii

@DoubleAA he didnt tamper with texts, he created a next text all together

@DhoweedYaAgov As is the case with yerushalmi on kodhsim

5:08 AM

@DoubleAA no because there is a thing called yarushalmi there is no sefer zohar

@Ali hii Ali. I hope all is well with you.

@DhoweedYaAgov I don't understand why that chiluk is meaningful here.

@ShmuelBrin im pretty sure sepharadim printed books from the 16-19

@IsaacMoses Was this just stam?

@DoubleAA people on a daily basis learn/learned yarushalmi no? who learned zohar in broad day light?

@DoubleAA Assume yes.

5:09 AM

@DoubleAA yarushalmis were used most likely more than zohars by majority of people

@DhoweedYaAgov there were much less of them. Do we have a (say) saloniki print of Shas?

@DhoweedYaAgov a ziuf is a ziuf

@DhoweedYaAgov So what?

Whatever. There's no need to argue about the validity of a claim you made about forging practices in medieval/early-modern europe.

@ShmuelBrin idk do we? i heard saloniki printed books. maybe they were burned as well

when the christians burned rambams books thats when they burned down the great library in spain

@DhoweedYaAgov Muslims weren't so much into burning Gemaras (since it predates their religion and doesn't refer to them)

@ShmuelBrin what does muslims have to do with anything?

@ShmuelBrin greece was under hitler in ww2 and most of the jews in saloniki perished

5:12 AM

@DoubleAA My mistake. I was actually thinking of an article by RYGB: yerushalmionline.org/articles/yerushalmi_on_kodshim.pdf

@DhoweedYaAgov Sefardim lived in muslim countries (the Ottoman empire to be precise) from the 1600-1900

@ShmuelBrin no one is talking about burning books in that time period

?

@Ali &

@DhoweedYaAgov Europeans didn't burn. They just banned printing them. Therefore, sefardi prints should be more accurate (so no need to go to dikduei sofrim, ksav yad, etc. just look at an ottoman print)

5:17 AM

@IsaacMoses I was booted from Chat for 22 hrs , Why would one do that?

@ShmuelBrin i think for the most part ppl wrote scrolls instead of books

in muslim countries

@Fred He quotes the Chofetz Chayim story as true and the Rogotchover story as "unverified legend related in the Yeshiva world".

@DhoweedYaAgov they didn't get the printing press until 1900?

@ShmuelBrin idk the history of the printing press so im not the person to be asking that sorry :P

@DhoweedYaAgov When they had it in Europe in 1450?

5:21 AM

@Ali You posted an image promoting a group called "Jews for Allah". If you post something like that again you will be suspended for much longer. And you know exactly what I mean.

2

I see no need to discuss this further.

2

@ShmuelBrin en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_books#Printing_press

@DoubleAA I had deleted it

And i did not promote any group but just an Idea

A printing press is a device for evenly printing ink onto a print medium (substrate) such as paper or cloth. The device applies pressure to a print medium that rests on an inked surface made of moveable type, thereby transferring the ink. Typically used for texts, the invention and spread of the printing press are widely regarded as among the most influential events in the second millennium revolutionizing the way people conceive and describe the world they live in, and ushering in the period of modernity. The invention of printing is credited to Johannes Gutenberg in 1450 although e...

@DhoweedYaAgov ping

wat

@DhoweedYaAgov The invention of printing is credited to Johannes Gutenberg in 1450

5:24 AM

mhmm

@DoubleAA The story, yes. But I think he in fact was suspicious early on.

@DoubleAA hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1966&st=&pgnum=183

@DoubleAA "But I think he in fact was suspicious early on." I was referring to the Rogotchover, btw.

5:44 AM

@Fred Bizarre story of R Papa here hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=1&daf=43b&format=pdf

@DoubleAA Here's an interesting tidbit from sefer Sh'miras HaLashon where the Chafetz Chayim suggests that gedolim of modern times can occasionally be fooled: hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=47571&st=&pgnum=125

@DoubleAA You mean the hadas and the shemen?

@Fred The end of it, ya

Where he cites Rava?

@Fred "cites"

.אמר ליה הכי אמר רבא הלכה כב"ה. ולא היא! לאשתמוטי נפשיה הוא דעבד

Ok, there is an interpretation of the gemara that someone can do that to avoid great embarrassment.

5:50 AM

@Fred See the mesoret hashas who says he made up the saying to add value to his saying.

See also the Gra who just deletes the story.

I haven't followed up the Gilion haShas's notes

@DoubleAA There's a couple of different versions and interpretations mentioned here: dafyomi.co.il/berachos/points/br-ps-043.htm

@Fred Ok but I think we have satisfactorily found you a source for pseudo-Isaac's claim.

@DoubleAA Well he was quoting the Rama MiPano who writes that R' Papa was giving kavod to his rebbe. Presumably, his rebbe knew that teaching, as well, even though R' Papa didn't actually learn it from him.

So it what he said was true in a manner of speaking.

That's not similar to having your own idea and attributing it to someone who might not agree.

@Fred ? That's not how I read the Rama miFano. He attributed it to his teacher because he was so sure he himself was right. I don't think he had any evidence about what his teacher thought.

The words of the Rama miFano:
ורב פפא מסברא דנפשיה פליג על רבי יוחנן, ולא מחמת כסופא הוא דבעא לאשתמוטי אלא ממדת חסידות, ותלה הגדולה ברבו, ואי לאו דקים ליה דהכי הלכתא לא עבד עובדא כנפשיה, והכי קי"ל בכל דוכתא מעשה רב.

svara denfashei means it's his own svara. He might be very confident in it, but it is his own.

@DoubleAA He was sure that Rava would agree/know that we hold like Beis Hillel.

That's how I read אלא ממדת חסידות, ותלה הגדולה ברבו

6:00 AM

@Fred because he was sure everyone would agree. If I think I'm right about something, I imagine everyone would agree with me.

@Fred He didn't wasn't to take credit out of ?humility?.

@DoubleAA Fair enough. Either way, it seems he was quite sure Rava actually held this.

@DoubleAA Good find with the gemara, by the way. I think that someone who is inclined to be deceitful is likely try to hang his hat on this gemara, regardless of whether he thinks the person he's "quoting" actually agrees.

@Fred Plus it's not like we're dealing with a real talmid chacham here. Only a pseudo one.

@DoubleAA Correct. The guy suggested that you can falsely attribute for the purpose of getting an idea more widely accepted or disseminated, which is not borne out by the gemara.

@Fred by this gemara.

at least, in a case where you are not certain the attributee would agree.

that can be a dangerous route for rationalization.

@DoubleAA Right.

@DoubleAA Yeah. I think someone should probably have the stature of a Rav Papa, as well as a similar relationship with their rav, before they decide that their p'sak is correct and their rav would agree.

... or at least the analogue of Rav Papa in modern times.

6:16 AM

@Fred We should be zoche that everyone thinks like that.

@DoubleAA Im yirtze HaShem.

On that note, I'll log off. G'night!

6:45 AM

@DoubleAA heheh

@Fred A Lubavitcher told me that his last rebbe recommended his (the rebbe's) wisdom be quoted without his name attached if it'd be more accepted that way.

@msh210 Yeah, I've heard that. Makes sense too, provided it's not used as a "got you!" sort of thing.

@DoubleAA No dagesh chazak after "mi-"?

7:23 AM

yesterday, by HodofHod

@DoubleAA Ah, "Jews for Muhammad", you think, then?

Shoot, I was sure I had the name right!

@DoubleAA Yeah, I heard that too; wonder where it's from?

7:38 AM

Fano is a town and comune of the province of Pesaro and Urbino in the Marche region of Italy. It is a beach resort 12 km southeast of Pesaro, located where the Via Flaminia reaches the Adriatic Sea. It is the third city in the region by population after Ancona and Pesaro. History An ancient town of Marche, it was known as Fanum Fortunae after a temple of Fortuna located there. Its first mention in history only dates from 49 BC, when Julius Caesar held it, along with Pisaurum and Ancona. Caesar Augustus established a colonia, and built a wall, some parts of which remain. In 2 AD Au...

1 hour later…

8:56 AM

0

Q: Specific bracha tags

Should we have seperate tags for specific kinds of Brachos? e.g. We have tags for blesssing and sight. How about Sight-Blessings for ברכות ראיה?

4 hours later…

12:40 PM

Sorry @Ariel, I'm a little grumpy this morning. I had to make 7 edits due to my own lack of proofreading, and your edit puts it at 8 edits now. If I remove it that's 9. I don't want to reach 10 and go wiki.

3 hours later…

3:28 PM

@DoubleAA I understand. But if it has "mi-" it gets a dagesh no? (I'm half-joking.)

@SethJ Mods can always remove the wiki status if there's any reason to. I don't know what post you're talking about, but it sounds like it's eminently dewikiable. Give a holler (to any mod).

3:59 PM

parshablog: Vayikra sources -- 2013 edition

posted on March 12, 2013 by joshwaxman

by aliyah rishon (1:1) sheni (1:14), missing shelishi (2:7) revii (3:1) chamishi (4:1) shishi (4:27) shevii (5:11) maftir (5:24) haftara (Yeshaya 43:21), with Malbim, Ibn Ezra by perek perek 1 ; perek 2 ; perek 3 ; perek 4 ; perek 5 meforshim Geonim R' Saadia Gaon(882-942) -- see Wikipedia entry: Arabic translation of Torah, here at Temanim.org. This is a beautiful PDF, with the …

3 hours later…

7:21 PM

@DoubleAA, how about: "It used to be that you'd buy a Shechted chicken (or Shecht your own chicken) and salt it at home before cooking it. In fact, the women of the house were often the best-educated on how to do this. Nowadays, though, we usually buy chicken and other meats already salted and ready to be cooked. I'd like to know the most practical way that a person can salt an entire chicken at home, fulfilling all the requirements according to the most opinions possible."

A script to ignore Ali on-site, with instructions on how to install the script. Note that, although I'm linking to the script & instructions, I did not author, use, or inspect them, and cannot vouch for them (though I have no particular reason to think they're flawed).

@msh210 Is that the best that can be done? I have to block him on my own computer?

@SethJ btw you can already ignore him on chat, there's a built in option

@SethJ Not at all. We're working on it. Stand by. But even if he leaves the site, at least some of his posts will presumably remain, so if you want not to see them, this is one way.

7:40 PM

@SethJ It's 10 edits by you for community wiki. It doesn't include edits by other people.

@Ariel You sure about that? I've deleted my comments.

@SethJ It says so here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/11740/… "The post has been edited ten (10) times by the original owner." You should leave in the info about the OU poskim disagreeing though.

7:55 PM

@Ariel Maybe I should delete my entire digression, or even my entire introduction.

@Ariel Ah, right, thanks.

8:20 PM

@SethJ I think it's OK. After all, questions about the status of quinoa are going to be the first thing anyone will think of after reading that. However maybe link to the question on it judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/6559/quinoa-kitniyos-status

8:52 PM

General reminder: if a post has delete votes (or flags, from those who can't vote), that can enable the mods to act in cases where we can't act alone directly. It is far better that the community speak in such matters rather than us just taking matters into our own hands.

To those of you who have been involved in the rewriting-for-the-hagada effort, I'm sorry about my (so far) inability to be a part of it also. In my defense, I haven't had a sure stretch of consecutive time to allot to it. (I didn't wish to start working on a post and stop in the middle, lest I not finish, and also lest my efforts go to waste because someone else does it meanwhile.) I think I'll join you, though, by frequently saving rough drafts on Meta in case I get interrupted.

@MonicaCellio s/can\'t/won\'t/ . We can do anything we like. mwahahahaha

@MonicaCellio Seriously, though, I agree.

@msh210 sounds like a plan! And I think it would also be fine if you marked questions on the list as "msh210 working on this" to tell others not to go there.

Also, all, remember that the list is an input, but if you come across other questions that would fit, feel free to go for it!

@MonicaCellio I can strike 'em when I start 'em instead of (as I think others have been doing) when they're done.

@msh210 that works too.

9:16 PM

If a username is lowercase, are we writing "jake asked:"? @MonicaCellio, anyone.

@msh210 I suspect that if you look in relevant modern style guides, they'd tell you to capitalize.

If anyone here agrees that the question currently at the top of the front page is NARQ and hasn't downvoted yet, I'll point out that 1 more downvote (I think) would remove it from the front page.

@IsaacMoses Maybe. Wikipedia uses "eBay" lowercase at the starts of sentences in, and in the title of, its article on eBay.

@msh210 Check w/ ELU?

@IsaacMoses I figured it's easier to ask @MonicaCellio. :-P

@msh210 I think I have been inconsistent about that. We should decide whether to use user names as they are or capitalize.

@msh210 :-)

I guess we should go with them as they're written. I mean, if we upcase, should it be yydl or YYDL -- are those initials? msh210, Msh210, MSH210? Probably best to leave 'em alone, and I'll try to go through and fix the ones I "corrected".

9:23 PM

@MonicaCellio I personally would prefer 'msh210', but I doubt leaving it up to the poster's preference is practical.

@MonicaCellio Irrespective of the semantic content of the username, there's a strong argument for capitalizing at the beginning of a sentence to visually signify the beginning of the sentence, as we do with words that are not proper nouns but in that position.

... the argument against is that in these cases, the particular capitalization scheme in the name is part of the correct spelling of that name, as in "eBay."

@IsaacMoses right -- eBay, iPad, amazon.com -- all of these have messed up the previously-indisputable English rule. Because we are also bold-facing user names I think it's less disconcerting for a lowercase one to start a sentence. Other opinions?

@MonicaCellio Good point (bolding).

@IsaacMoses Yeah: that, and the fact that "username asked:" is scarcely a sentence.

I would like to echo @msh210's apology. Almost word for word.

9:38 PM

@msh210 Why "don't edit"? Isn't this a collaborative project anyway? If someone edits to improve, then what's the problem?

Are the "Sources" added to some of the haggadah posts on Meta only sources that are possible copyright issues if not linked to (quoted cc-by texts for example) or also other things (a link to an online copy of a fairly common book)?

@DoubleAA because I'm editing, and if someone else does meanwhile then either my or his effort will be wasted.

@msh210 I recommend self-deleting the unfinished post then.

@DoubleAA Why?

@msh210 I recommend in-lining references for pretty much anything whose primary distribution is on paper (and that is reasonably findable in that medium) and using the Sources section only for places where more explanation is called for or the source's primary distribution is online, so a link is necessary

@IsaacMoses Sounds good. Thanks.

9:41 PM

@msh210 It keeps it separate from the 'ready' posts, which people are supposed to vote and discuss. You can still edit and undelete when ready. People have done this on Mi Yodeya when they are looking something up or fixing something.

@SethJ Heck, me three. I'd like to've done more by now.

@IsaacMoses @SethJ @msh210 I for one can tell you I was not holding it against you. Please contribute what you can.

Well then. I guess we're in good shape to focus on kabalat haTorah. Seven weeks of reduced distraction.

@DoubleAA Me too (playing the other side of the fence).

Speaking of the recent @IsaacMoses impersonator, I faintly recall another user recently using other people's gravatars, e.g., Alex's. Anyone else remember that?

They used more than one.

@HodofHod It was the Purim Torah user

'Leitz' or something

9:48 PM

@DoubleAA Ah, right. Checking.

@HodofHod Yes we were just speaking of him.

@DoubleAA Whoops, haven't finished backreading yet.

Sorry :)

@IsaacMoses yeah, that was my thinking -- you can say "Sanhedrin 89a" inline & it's fine, but a long Chabad URL, not so much. Use your judgment.

Leitz, Ir Leitzim, Israel

641 1 11

purim-torah-in-jest megillat-esther parshanut-torah-comment

@DoubleAA what he said. I appreciate whatever effort people are able to contribute, and nobody is keeping score.

9:50 PM

@DoubleAA Wait, are we supposed to upvote submissions? The calls for submissions should say so....

@HodofHod Came back first with my gravatar. I objected, and it switched to Alex's.

@msh210 It does meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/q/1511/759

@IsaacMoses Ah, well, I suppose it's not uncommon to want to be like a patriarch..... ;)

Occupational hazard :D

@msh210 I believe the editors are going to take all submissions that don't have any down-votes. It's not like we'll be swamped. :-) It does ask people to explain downvotes so we can address the issue.

@HodofHod I thought that just happened automatically

9:53 PM

@DoubleAA I mean meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/q/1520 and its sisters.

@MonicaCellio Realistically speaking, the amount of process that's actually needed is what's happening, I think.

@MonicaCellio Could you check with the editors and get back to me? :-P

@msh210 @MonicaCellio I prefer "redactors"

@IsaacMoses That was going to be my suggestion

Are the redactors with minor roles the redextras?

9:58 PM

@msh210 :-)

10:47 PM

Can a question be deleted and not show up in 'tools'?

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