Is it overkill to write $t_{\text{r}}$ instead of $t_\text{r}$?

@Kurzd No, it's entirely correct: as discussed many times, the fact that _ and ^ don't work like 'normal' macros is an artefact that really should not be relied upon

@Kurzd how did you even guess that _\text{} would work? It is entirely unfortunate and accidental behaviour that should not be documented anywhere.

@Kurzd If you want to omit some braces it would be a lot more reasonable (although still slightly weird) to omit the inner ones t_{\text r} as that works for any command eg t_{\fbox r} just by the usual rule that if you omit the braces a single token is taken as the argument.

@JosephWright am just about to start test suite running on luatex 1.0.2 ....

@Canageek oooh <3

@CarLaTeX, @UlrikeFischer, @barbarabeeton: Oh my, the naming scheme is becoming more and more complex. :)

All checks passed (@JosephWright)

@DavidCarlisle Cool

@JosephWright also Akira and Luigi have fixed the cygwin build

@DavidCarlisle Great

@DavidCarlisle I'll grab Akira's build for W32TeX soon

as far as I understand what happened cygwin looked enough like windows that it picked up some of the win32 build #defines which then didn't work, so fix was adding "not cygwin" tests in a few places...

@PauloCereda ... and the duck-mania has infected Overleaf, too!

@CarLaTeX Pondering asking them for some promo ones

@JosephWright hahaha

@CarLaTeX ducks everywhere!

I was a duck enthusiast way before this fashion. :)

@JosephWright for UK-TUG members? :)

@PauloCereda You are the trend setter!

@CarLaTeX oh no

:)

@CarLaTeX: I believe you are having fun with the puppet! I love playing with mine from time to time. :)

@PauloCereda As soon as it's less cold, I'll take him to sightsee Milan!

@CarLaTeX oooooh did your mum enjoy it? :)

@PauloCereda Very much, she's still laughing!

@CarLaTeX ooh :)

@PauloCereda “What have the Romans ever done for us?” At least they helped in keeping Scots far from @DavidCarlisle

Hi all! Just wondering, is it possible to do a commutative diagram in TikZ with pictures?

For example, having arrows between a circle, a square, and a Mobius strip

@IrregularUser Hi! The tikzcd nodes can be any mathmode material, so you can place a tikzpicture inside.

@yo' Oh! That's great, I'll play around with that

@IrregularUser remember that to LaTeX, a tikzpicture is basically behaving as an atomic box, quite the same as a character: it's "something" that has got width, height and depth.

@yo' In that case, is it possible to "overlay" things onto something drawn by TikZ?

@yo' As in the overpic package, but for TikZ

@egreg oh my!

@IrregularUser of course, you can either modify the bounding box of the tikzpicture (search useasboundingbox in TikZ manual) or place your material in the tikzpicture (as a \node) or overlay the tikzpicture over something (see \rlap and friends in mathtools package)

@yo' Wow.

@yo' And to think, all this time I've been avoiding learning TikZ... thank you very much, I'm surprised at how much utility it has

@IrregularUser but IMHO it doesn't make sense to give more details on such methods, you better study them yourself... :-)

@IrregularUser did that for years, avoided TikZ. Now I'm so happy I learnt it!

@yo' Yep, that's exactly what I'm doing and using them on examples that require them

@yo' I used to draw my commutative diagrams in paint with all the separate components in LaTeX -- TikZ is so much better looking and faster

@IrregularUser yuck!

now excuse me, I've got some work to do

@yo' Yuck indeed! Thanks for your help again :)

@IrregularUser welcome

@yo' Better a pic object: don't nest a tikzpicture inside another.

@egreg it failed, I have crossed that wall (and walked along a fair part of its length)

@DavidCarlisle I blame the English who didn't maintain it.

@egreg the way things are going, it may get rebuilt:(

@DavidCarlisle And England will lose to Scotland also in cricket.

@egreg quite possibly

@PauloCereda: Lemons curry!

@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle It just seemed...natural? The \ch and \ce macros don't behave like that so I got used to using more braces. Is this behavior getting dropped in LaTeX3?

@Kurzd User interfaces in LaTeX3 aren't anything like decided on, but it's likely not to use the primitive approach to sub/super scripts so will need braces

This question (on meta.math.SE) asks about MathJax and not LaTeX, but perhaps some people from here might be interested in it and might be willing to help: MathJax command for \coloneq.

@MartinSleziak you should just be able to use ≔ directly although in many fonts := looks nicer than ≔ anyway

@DavidCarlisle You mean use unicode?

That's one of the suggestions I mentioned in my answer, it seems that the OP was not very satisfied.

@MartinSleziak if you want, yes, or ≔ which is the html markup for same

Well ≔ can be used in normal text (I wonder whether it can be used in chat: &coloneq;) But in MathJax (between dollars) it returns error.

Which is quite expected. (The error message says: Misplaced &.)

@MartinSleziak shrug personally (also in lualatex or xelatex with unicode-math) I'd just use ≔ or something that expanded to that (\coloneq in unicode-math) and then just choose a font I liked rather than faking the symbol.

@JosephWright I shall keep using braces. Just for confirmation, is $...$ expected to remain supported in LaTeX3?

@MartinSleziak there is a way to use html entities in mathjax, i forget, but anyway you can always just use the characte

@Kurzd probably

@Kurzd Like @DavidCarlisle says (possibly different implementation at a technical level)

@Kurzd Almost all of document syntax from the core of LaTeX likely to be kept, only change perhaps deprecating a few things formally

@Kurzd not sure why it would seem natural:-) it is a parsing rule very special to _ and \text :-) \fbox \text{abc} is \fbox{\text}{abc} not \fbox{\text{abc}} and _\fbox{abc} is _{\fbox}{abc} so the number of constructs where \1\2{abc} is equivalent to \1{\2{abc}} is very limited.

@DavidCarlisle I mean it :( . There's $t_{r}$ so I thought adding \text would get to use the existing braces and turn its argument to text, which it seemingly did. IYour message started to make sense on the fifth read. I take you mean two different placeholder commands by \1\2, but having unbalanced braces on the last escaped text is...what does that mean?

@Kurzd I've fixed @DavidCarlisle's typo

@JosephWright typo who'd have thought it possible (sorry @Kurzd)

Ah. A typo -_-. It makes sense now. Thanks @JosephWright @DavidCarlisle

@Kurzd the parsing of _ is just weird, unlike macro arguments it is not just that some braces can be omitted, consider \newcommand\foo[1]{{abc}{#1}} $t_\foo{xyz}$ here you have to omit the brace, the result is not the same as t_{\foo}{xyz} (which is an error) or t_{\foo{xyz}} (different subscript output).

@DavidCarlisle That's much better. It could have happened to me.

@yo' a disaster, don't you agree?

@DavidCarlisle I don't have to look and I can guess what's up :-)

hi all

I am looking for a file, written I think by David

which typeset a poem

from a not reading plain tex code

not readable

with many change of catcode

does some of you remember it?

@Maïeul xii.tex

yo that's many think

@Maïeul sorry now I don't understand you

"That is, many thank"

@Maïeul ah ok, you're welcome :)

sorry! I will tell 20 pater and 10 ave

@Maïeul :-)

honestyl, the day I will be able to produce this type of code, I will be pride of my progress in TeX

Is there an actual example of Tufte style book that is or was in print and being sold?

@DavidCarlisle Especially when you write down the code using the Paint program.

twitter.com/FourOctets/status/820159979013304320 For @PauloCereda and @DavidCarlisle

@Canageek Haha. I am stealing this. :D

@yo' What @DavidCarlisle said. But 'jelly' can be a sweet in the candy sense, too. But I think 'jelly' usually means the dessert unless the context suggests otherwise or it is combined with something. That is, what Americans call 'jello' after the commercial dessert, Jello.

@cfr ok thanks. That's actually also my perception of the word jelly --- the dessert. Just tell me, is jelly used also for things like Haribo bears?