Good MAEN again ;-)

@ChristianHupfer It's not been too good for the English cricket team

@ChristianHupfer 'ello!

@DavidCarlisle: That's sad to hear... I hope, they well do better the next match (I have no idea of cricket ;-))

@PauloCereda: Ah, the buddy who lost some letters... This time it's h's turn :D

@PauloCereda: By the way, as a Physicist, I can't permit, that you permit 'h' ;-)

@ChristianHupfer wut

I iz stoopid. :)

@DavidCarlisle: How were the results? (The team played against which other team?)

Paulo Cereda omits h, indicating that the value of h is zero, so Quantum mechanics is wrong ;-)

@ChristianHupfer I thought quantum mechanics is totally correct and absolutely wrong at the same time.

@DavidCarlisle London bridge is falling down. :)

@PauloCereda yes :) but I didn't have the time for a thorough test, yet

@cgnieder ooh. :)

@PauloCereda works quite well for standard tasks.

but the new craziness needs to be tested :)

@cgnieder LOL

@cgnieder: the terminal output is more aesthetic. :)

@PauloCereda stop watching cricket and answer this: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/198233/…

@DavidCarlisle A bad use of the tikz-cd package, not to blame Brazilians. :)

@DavidCarlisle: Ah: Argument of \language@active@arg" has an extra }. :)

Back...

@DavidCarlisle: And Heiko saves the day. :) I lost the chance of answering that because I was reading the babel documentation. :P

Hello everybody.

Can someone tell me if there is an equivalent to \relax in expl3?

I'll try again to ask this here before I post a question just to be sure I am not missing something: Anyone knows if it is possible to tell fancyverb to make the frame around verbatim fit tight automatically around the verbatim content? Currently `\begin{Verbatim}[frame=single]{....}' produces frame as wide as the page.

I tried may other ways to do this but each has problem. Would listings package be able to do this instead?

@PauloCereda I believe someone we know said bad things happen if you read documentation... :)

@HenriMenke \scan_stop: -- but I (nearly) never need it in expl3

@DavidCarlisle Heiko answered, but not as well as usual.

@TorbjørnT. thanks, will try these. But I think I'll run into the same issue, which is that long verbatim text will get chopped off at the end of the page if the verbatim large (more than one page, like 2-3 pages) where only one page is used only. like here i.stack.imgur.com/YSErN.png But will try these and let you know. Otherwise, might post a question on this on main board.

@Johannes_B: Any new questions/users on golatex.de worth to be ignored?

@cgnieder I wonder who. :)

@egreg Out of curiosity: is it healthy to pass brazil to the document class instead directly to the package?

@PauloCereda So long as only one language is used, yes.

@egreg I see. :)

@cgnieder I need to use \mathpalette and this needs a second token, so I usually use \relax, but I consider using { } instead. Am I too dumb to search the documentation or is there really no \kern in expl3?

@TorbjørnT. None of these solutions work. The first one is the similar to Herbert solution here tex.stackexchange.com/questions/198108/… and since it uses fbox, the verbatim is chopped off. The second solution using \usepackage{moreverb} also gets chopped off. Listing package frame does not automatically fit around text from what I read.

@HenriMenke all primitives are renamed in expl3. Probably \tex_kern:D

...So it seems there is no solution to this problem? May be will post a question on it, I just find it hard to believe.

@cgnieder ...which is :D for "do not use". So there is really no \kern.

Sometimes I feel demented: Does anybody understand really the problem of this question? Both of my solutions miss the target, obviously: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/198163/…

@cgnieder I thought it was a smiley. I'm so disappointed right now. :(

@HenriMenke yes, but as there is no typesetting layer for LaTeX3, yet, sometimes they can't be avoided. IMHO \kern is one of those cases

@PauloCereda not my fault. Blame Frank (I guess)

@cgnieder well, there's \vspace and \hspace, which are not L3, but are not tex primitives either

@cgnieder lalalalalala can't hear you

@cgnieder Which one would you use? \kern or \tex_kern:D?

@tohecz yes, there are no equivalents. I use some 2e commands in expl3 (e.g. \vspace)

@HenriMenke I believe I used \tex_kern:D

@PauloCereda :)

@cgnieder I think that \vspace is better than \kern, because \kern is behaving really strangely, and doesn't follow LaTeX argument conventions

@tohecz You misunderstood me: I don't use \kern if I want a \vspace. I use \kern for kerning :)

@cgnieder well, why not \hspace then?

@tohecz depends on the use case

@tohecz \hspace (which is \hskip underneath) is a valid line break point, while \kern is not.

@HenriMenke ah ok

@cgnieder tex.stackexchange.com/a/175245/10995

@cgnieder I hope I did better this time with expl3.

@HenriMenke there are of course use cases for \scan_stop:. :)

@HenriMenke I believe you started fairly well :) I have a 3-year head start...

I think I just found something the all-mighty latex can't do, which is automatically adjust a frame width around verbatim content but also do not cut-off the verbatim content if it is longer than one page and extend this to as many pages as needed. I'll mark this day on my calender :)

@Nasser Have you tried all solutions? tcolorbox, mdframed, minted, etc.?

I'll post this as a question one I finish cleaning it and add a bounty also (never used bounty before, I assume I can just click somewhere. maybe 300 points is ok?

@ChristianHupfer There always are some ;-)

@HenriMenke There are so many packages out there and so many things to try. Been trying everything I see. Did not try mdframed and minted. I think I've used one with tcolorbox. but getting tired just to keep trying. But will try now.

@ChristianHupfer But i want to help, so ignoring is ...

@Johannes_B: ... tedious? ;-)

I saw one question was closed because someone asked how to do what I am trying to do using lisiting package ! tex.stackexchange.com/questions/99860/… I thought it was an excellent question. But got closed. go figure.

@ChristianHupfer I've been put on this earth to help. I can't give up ;-)

@Nasser the one you link is not closed

@tohecz sorry, wrong one (looking at many) here it is tex.stackexchange.com/questions/70145/lstlistings-framed-code

@Johannes_B ;-)

That is what I want also, but any package and any method, I do not care. As long as I can get frame to adjust automatically and also support more than one page.... but trying other things still, and none is working so far.

@Nasser More than one page is tricky since you might have a float. :(

@Nasser I don't understand why it was closed. But anyways, the answers seem to imply that it's impossible...

it seems there is an inherent conflict between auto-adjustment of frame and also have it go over the page boundary.

@Nasser these two requirements together don't make me a sense, if it goes over the page break, it's a fullwidth material anyways, isn't it? You wouldn't put aqnything next to it

@tohecz the answers do not handle the page-over. I just tried them and added comment also there. none of them work.

@tohecz This.

anyways, sorry guys, 10.30pm, time to prepare a dinner

the question is whether I want to make smažený hermelín or not

@tohecz I do not know latex. I can get a frame that go-over-page using basic \begin{Verbatim}[frame=single], just need the frame to adjust width automatically. I do not know internals of latex.

@Nasser I don't speak about internals of LaTeX. I just say that it doesn't make sense what you try. Narrow code blocks make sense for short codes. For anything longer than 10-15 lines, I wouldn't use them, it just doesn't seem visually correct and it doesn't have any benefits

@tohecz What is smažený hermelín?

@tohecz Will, I have some verbatim that can go over one page long (log messages, build output etc.. and I like to have a frame around it and also not have it get chopped at end of page. but like the frame to adjust width according to verbatim, I do not see why a user can't have this.

@Johannes_B smažený = coated in flour eggs and bread as a schnitzel, hermelín = a Czech cheese very similar to camembert

@Nasser well, you can have all of that, just make the frame full-width

@tohecz humm... we are going in circles. I want the frame to adjust and have it handle longer that one page. That is what I started with. Latex does not seem to be able to do this currently. But I am still trying.

@Nasser no, it is probably not able to do it. It would require a multipass system similar to the one of tabularx, and IMHO it's a feature that should not exist (with my typogrpahy hat on ;) )

@tohecz Sounds tasty

@Johannes_B I love it, but the prep. takes almost an hour to me

@tohecz I tried fancybox also. It adjusts the frame but chops off at end of page. Too bad. Ok, so I should give up wasting time trying to see if it can be done and just accept this limitation of latex

Another one for expl3. Why was l3toks deprecated? What was the problem with \toks, or the advantage of usual macros (\def) versus \toks?

@Manuel You have a limited amount of \toks registers, while you may have "infinitely" many macros (\defs).

@tohecz Take your time, if it's worth it, it's worth it ;-)

Tomorrow: Chili

@HenriMenke That was the only limit? I mean, is there a problem with the 32k (or 64k in LuaTeX) with e-TeX (those numbers are not checked, they just appeared in my mind, so I'm not sure)?

@Manuel l3toks was superseeded by l3tl, btw.

Is it possible, that classicthesis is full of oddities?

@HenriMenke I know, that's why I asked. What are the advantages that l3tl offered (which works with usual \def). For one, the unlimited number of options… is that the only one? In that case, what is the advantage of \toks over \defs that made them usable for many years?

@Manuel I don't know. You will have to ask Knuth or Frank.

@HenriMenke :)

@Manuel One thing that comes to my mind is expansion. You can \edef things while toks never expands anything. Also the concept of the replacement specifiers (a.k.a. #1, etc.) might come in handy.

@Manuel If I recall it correctly, toks was introduced for finer expansion control inside \edef. Else you would have to clutter your code with \noexpand.

@HenriMenke \tokens was introduced on 13 November 1982, but Knuth only says “this will be useful”. Later (7 June 1983) the array of 256 token registers was introduced. In errorlog there's no mention of \tokens in connection to \edef. Note that \xdef was introduced very early, suggesting that \edef has remained essentially the same as in TeX78.

@Manuel Imagine you have a nasty macro containing many fragile stuff say \nasty. And you want to combine the contents of \extrastuff and \nasty inside another macro \combo. So you want to expand \nasty only once without execution while you want to expand \extrastuff fully. That requires a total control over what is happening to each one. Scenarios like this necessitates more than edef,

@Manuel you should ask the team. Here's a hint, though: tex.stackexchange.com/a/39750 »in general there is little need to use a toks with e-TeX available: we dropped the entire l3toks module from LaTeX3 as a result.«

@HenriMenke @percusse @cgnieder You all got to the point.

@Manuel My idea :-)

@Manuel With e-TeX, you can do \edef\foo{\unexpanded{<content>} and store anything in a macro that can go in a toks, and can do \unexpanded\expandafter{\foo} to put the content of a macro somewhere without further expansion

@Manuel The problem with toks versus macro storage is you have to get into 'use a toks if you want # tokens and/or no further expansion inside \edef/\write/...'.

@Manuel It's much simpler with e-TeX and the expl3 wrapper to say 'Store tokens in a tl, ans use \exp_not:V to insert the content with no further expansion'.

@Manuel This avoids two different data types. I did mention recently to the team that you could imagine using toks for everything, but then you always need an accessor function and might run out of them (as we build other data types on top of tl, that is a non-zero risk if using registers)

@HenriMenke Not really: we simply dropped using toks entirely except for the low-level cases such as \everypar that need a 'proper' interface anyway (see l3galley for that one, for example)

@Manuel Testing suggested that the performance hit was tiny, so the team agreed to go with my plan :-)

@cgnieder who said that?

@Johannes_B indeed:

@Nasser there is always a solution

@tohecz fish and chips, but your fish melted?

@DavidCarlisle s/fish/cheese/

@DavidCarlisle ok, but can't find it myself. Should I post a question then? I assumed it is not possible to do based on the discussion. thanks,.

@tohecz Camembert?

@DavidCarlisle a Czech variant of it, yeah

@tohecz ah thought you were in France:-)

@DavidCarlisle nono, French people are disgusted when they see this :P

@tohecz they should stick to fish and chips:-0

@DavidCarlisle :) I could search the chat for a proper quote but because of @tohecz I'm hungry now and have to get me something to eat so I don't have the time

@DavidCarlisle I'll tell them once, when I'm sure they won't beat me

@cgnieder lol :)

well, if you don't like me speaking of food, there's something different yet Czech also for the tongues:

Speaking of food: I had a lunch all based on mushrooms. Except for dessert, of course.

@egreg well, that's nothing for me, I don't eat mushrooms :)

@tohecz Where are the vowels?!

@PauloCereda who needs them?

@tohecz Us, for once. :)

@PauloCereda nah blah

@tohecz LOL

damn printer. It prints one page in ~1 minute :(

and I have to print something like 100 pages